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Open Thread, June 2-15, 2013

5 Post author: TimS 02 June 2013 02:22AM

If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post (even in Discussion), then it goes here.

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Comment author: Prismattic 30 June 2013 08:50:25PM 1 point [-]

It's been so long since I needed to use it that I've forgotten my Lesswrong password. Is there any password recovery function?

Comment author: yli 15 June 2013 03:52:30PM *  3 points [-]

RSS feeds for user's comments seem to be broken with the update to how they display on the page. To see how, just look at eg. http://lesswrong.com/user/Yvain/overview/.rss . It contains a bunch of comments from other people than Yvain. This is pretty annoying, hope it's fixed soon. I'm subscribed to tens of users' comment feeds and it's the main way I read LW. Today all of those feeds got a bunch of spurious updates from the new other-people-comments on everyone's comments page.

Also, some months back there was another change to userpages and it broke all my RSS feeds too, I had to resubscribe to everyone's /user/theirname/comments page where I had previously subscribed to the user/theirname page. I wish updates would never break RSS feeds, I'm sure I'm not the only one who makes significant use of them.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 15 June 2013 05:14:01PM 0 points [-]

I've submitted a ticket to the LW bug tracker.

Comment author: [deleted] 15 June 2013 11:23:26AM 2 points [-]

I think I've noticed that I'm more willing to read long texts written in small font sizes than in large ones, and in sans-serif than in serif font.

I might try again to read A Gentle Introduction to Unqualified Reservations, but in a small, sans-serif typeface this time, to test this.

Comment author: gwern 16 June 2013 10:32:07PM 0 points [-]

in sans-serif than in serif font.

FWIW, most of my pages on gwern.net seem like they'd count as 'long texts', but my just concluded font A/B test using 2 sans-serif and 2 serif fonts doesn't see any difference in reading time when you split by serif: http://www.gwern.net/a-b-testing#fonts

Comment author: [deleted] 15 June 2013 07:44:22AM 1 point [-]

http://lesswrong.com/user/army1987/comments/ also shows the parents of comments now. Can I disable that? In my preferences there's an option whether to show them in http://lesswrong.com/comments which is unchecked.

Comment author: diegocaleiro 12 June 2013 11:03:45AM 2 points [-]

There are people studying the memetics of transhumanism academically. I am writing my Masters so I can't read it. But maybe someone else wants to... (sorry no easy link) http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08949468.2013.754649#.UbhTvRUQ8gQ

Comment author: elharo 10 June 2013 07:52:48PM 2 points [-]

I notice I am confused about Godel's theorem, and I'm hoping there are enough mathematically minded folks here to unconfuse me. :-)

My recollection from my undergraduate days is that Godel's theorem states that given any sufficiently powerful formal system (i.e. one powerful to encode Peano arithmetic) there are statements that can be made in that system that can neither be proven true nor proven false. I.e. the system is either incomplete or inconsistent, and generally incomplete is what seems to happen.

Here's what confused me: I've noticed several recent sources stating Godel's theorem as "no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an "effective procedure" (e.g., a computer program, but it could be any sort of algorithm) is capable of proving all truths about the relations of the natural numbers (arithmetic). For any such system, there will always be statements about the natural numbers that are true, but that are unprovable within the system." (from Wikipedia). I.e. it's not just that there are statements that can't be proven, but true statements that can't be proven. I am confused about what it means to call a mathematical statement "true" if it can't be proven.

In particular, my recollection was that when you encountered such an unprovable statement you could add either the statement or its negation to your axioms and continue, much as with the parallel postulate in geometry. These results weren't true or false. They were undecidable.

What am I missing? What does it mean in pure mathematics to say a statement is "true" if we can't prove it?

Comment author: shminux 10 June 2013 08:44:11PM 1 point [-]

This might be helpful.

These are natural mathematical equivalents of the Godel "true but undecidable" sentence. They can be proved in a larger system which is generally accepted as a valid form of reasoning, but are undecidable in a more limited system such as Peano Arithmetic.

Comment author: niceguyanon 10 June 2013 07:50:58PM *  1 point [-]

Does anyone have anything to say or have any links regarding mortality salience, existentialism, or determinism as a source of motivation? Traditionally these are seen as a hindrance to motivation and may lead to fatalism and existential angst.

This previous post is the type of discussion I am looking for. Can confrontation of mortality and existential catharsis lead to motivation and hack akrasia?

Comment author: [deleted] 15 June 2013 10:43:59PM 2 points [-]

Here's one answer.

In the summer of 1922, the Paris weekly newspaper L'Intrasigeant posed as their "Man on the street" question

"An American scientist announces that the world will end, or at least that such a huge part of the continent will be destroyed, and in such a sudden way, that death will be the certain fate of hundreds of millions of people. If this prediction were confirmed, what do you think would be its effects on people between the time when they acquired the aforementioned certainty and the moment of cataclysm? Finally, as far as you're concerned, what would you do in this last hour?"

The novelist Marcel Proust responded:

"I think that life would suddenly seem wonderful to us if we were threatened to die as you say. Just think of how many projects, travels, love affairs, studies, it -- our life -- hides from us, made invisible by our laziness which, certain of a future, delays them incessantly.

But let all this threaten to become impossible for ever, how beautiful it would become again! Ah! If only the cataclysm doesn't happen this time, we won't miss visiting the new galleries of the Louvre, throwing ourselves at the feet of Miss X, making a trip to India.

The cataclysm doesn't happen, we don't do any of it, because we find ourselves back in the heart of normal life, where negligence deadens desire. And yet we shouldn't have needed the cataclysm to love life today. It would have been enough to think that we are humans, and that death may come this evening."

Comment author: shminux 10 June 2013 08:03:27PM 1 point [-]

I suspect that without mortality salience I would have more trouble getting out of bed and doing something useful every morning. Or I would just play games forever.

Comment author: Kawoomba 09 June 2013 06:33:59PM *  7 points [-]

Iain Banks is dead.

"They speak very well of you".

-"They speak very well of everybody."

"That so bad?"

-"Yes. It means you can“t trust them."

Comment author: FiftyTwo 09 June 2013 08:26:44PM 5 points [-]

Fuck cancer. Fuck mortality. We must work faster.

Comment author: Tenoke 08 June 2013 02:36:37PM 2 points [-]

A bit of a long shot but I am a recent Psychology (BSc) Graduate who currently lives in London and is looking for a job. Does anyone know of any positions in the rationality sector (anywhere) or any science/research/anything else like that around London (or not) that I can look into? Or any other general advice, recommendations etc.

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 08 June 2013 06:36:36AM *  4 points [-]

So on the topic of effective altruism, I've been thinking about the benefits of a "can't beat 'em? join 'em" type strategy for improving the world. Examples:

  • Wish South Africa would stop apartheid? Don't protest it, there will be lots of people doing that. Instead, try to gain power within the South African government and become F. W. de Klerk. (Arguably that role is more noble anyway, since you'd be relinquishing power instead of trying to gain power for yourself and people like you.)
  • Want to make China a democracy? Join the communist party and try to be the next Gorbachev.
  • Think XYZ Corp pollutes too much? Join them as an industrial engineer and work on improving their equipment.
  • Want to make the government more efficient? Join the most wasteful government branch you can find, be the plain-spoken, tight-wadded, intelligent, responsive government employee you wish all government employees were, and try to advance to management positions that let you cut the fat off your government branch.
  • Wish academic researchers would stop doing dangerous research that could lead to AGI or brain emulations? Go to grad school, research those topics, gain some acclaim, and then start preaching to your colleagues about potential dangers.
  • Think one of your country's political parties is completely nuts? Fake your way to a position of power within the party, then make a point of always being the most reasonable person in the room.

Thoughts?

Comment author: drethelin 09 June 2013 06:18:38PM 3 points [-]

I'll say what I said on facebook: The most effective paths historically for the bettering of the human condition are technology and trade. The net effect of the republican party on american well-being, however crazy they are, is way smaller than cheap cellphones or widespread computers or good public transportation. You can spend 20 years getting to a position of power as a republican or you can spend 20 years inventing energy storage systems or cheap and accessible travel or healthy but palatable alternatives to snack foods that are more achievable and have the positive benefit of providing you with experience and connections that aren't based 100 percent on lies.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 13 June 2013 02:01:36AM 2 points [-]

We should ask ourselves, "How much of my impression of what sorts of interventions are effective comes from fact, and how much from the self-promotion of people who would like to solicit my assistance or deter my interference?"

Comment author: FiftyTwo 09 June 2013 08:32:01PM 2 points [-]

Depends on your comparative advantage. For many people its easier to become a moderately successful politician than meaningfully change the progress of world technological development.

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 June 2013 11:46:14AM 0 points [-]

When it comes to creating public transportation look at the case of the Uber amendment in DC. If you have bad people in political control they won't allow you to set up your cheap and accessible public transportation.

Comment author: TimS 08 June 2013 01:14:45PM *  3 points [-]

In practice, desire to implement reform-from-within is a strong negative to promotion to positions that could implement the change. If the organization thought your issue was a problem, they probably would address it without your intervention. Since they don't, that means they don't agree that your issue is a problem.

One could adopt a false persona for years to get the promotions to powerful positions. But you still might not get the promotion. And do you want to be a faithful cog in implementing bad policy in the meantime?

And even if you did, you still might not be in position to make the change you want. With the benefit of hindsight, we know Gorbachev could and did make major reforms. But could he have predicted that at the beginning of his career, even if he wanted to?

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 11 June 2013 06:01:53AM 2 points [-]

Also, if you adopt a false persona over a sufficiently long time, there's a risk of that becoming your real persona.

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 17 June 2013 07:48:30AM *  0 points [-]

Spies do it all the time, right? Maybe this should be called the "infiltration strategy" or something. Sounds sexier.

Although spies do have handlers whose entire career consists of guiding them in their missions, and being a spy is what they are getting paid to do. That seems like a decent amount of social pressure not to defect. I wonder what defection rates for spies are like? What ways are spies selected for low defection probability aside from being citizens of their home country? I've heard that the NSA doesn't like to hire people who have smoked marijuana.

Comment author: [deleted] 07 June 2013 09:53:43PM 4 points [-]
Comment author: ema 07 June 2013 07:07:12PM 3 points [-]

The subset of people who are Anki users and members of the competitive conspiracy might be interested in the Anki high score list addon I wrote: Ankichallenge

Comment author: Larks 07 June 2013 10:31:57AM *  7 points [-]

Suppose the placebo effects exists; if you believe you will get better, then you will indeed get recover.

B(h) -> h

Unfortunately, it only works if you believe you will get better - and it could be hard to see why it'd be rational to believe that in the first place. Fortunately, rationalists have a solution to this problem.

We're scientific sorts of people, so we believe in the placebo effect - that is:

B( B(h) -> h )

and we're also logical sort of people, so we believe lob's theorem

B( B(h) -> h ) -> B(h)

and hence we believe we'll be healed

B(h)

and hence, by the placebo effect,

h

And we're healed!

Comment author: gwern 06 June 2013 09:14:51PM *  49 points [-]

Per a discussion on IRC, I am auctioning off my immortal soul to the highest bidder over the next week. (As an atheist I have no use for it, but it has a market value and so holding onto it is a foolish endowment effect.)

The current top bid is 1btc ($120) by John Wittle.

Details:

  1. I will provide a cryptograpically-signed receipt in explicit terms agreeing to transfer my soul to the highest bidder, signed with my standard public key. (Note that, as far as I know, this is superior to signing in blood since DNA degrades quickly at room temperature, and a matching blood type would both be hard to verify without another sample of my blood and also only weak evidence since many people would share my blood type.)
  2. Payment is preferably in bitcoins, but I will accept Paypal if really needed. (Equivalence will be via the daily MtGox average.) Address: 17twxmShN3p6rsAyYC6UsERfhT5XFs9fUG (existing activity)
  3. The auction will close at 4:40 PM EST, 13 June 2013
  4. My soul is here defined as my supernatural non-material essence as specified by Judeo-Christian philosophers, and not my computational pattern (over which I continue to claim copyright); transfer does not cover any souls of gwerns in alternate branches of the multiverses inasmuch as they have not consented.
  5. There is no reserve price. This is a normal English auction with time limit.
  6. I certify that my soul is intact and has not been employed in any dark rituals such as manufacturing horcruxes; I am also a member in good standing of the Catholic Church, having received confirmation etc. Note that my soul is almost certainly damned inasmuch as I am an apostate and/or an atheist, which I understand to be mortal sins.
  7. I further certify that the transferred soul is mine, has never been anyone else's, has not been involved in any past transactions, sales, purchases, etc. However, note that, despite rich documentation that this is doable, I cannot certify that any supernatural or earthly authorities will respect my attempt to sell my soul or even that I have a soul. It may be better for you to think of this as purchasing a quitclaim to my soul.
  8. Bids can be communicated as replies to this comments, emails to gwern@gwern.net, comments on IRC, or replies on Google+. I will update this comment with the current top bid if/when a new top bid is received.

Suggested uses for my soul include:

  • novelty value
  • pickup lines & icebreakers; eg. Wittle to another person considering selling their soul:

    JohnWittle> ______: "You know, I own gwern's soul.
    You know, gwern of LessWrong and gwern.net" is a
    great ice breaker at rationalist meetups and I anticipate
    it increasing my chances of getting laid by a nonzero amount.
    Can your soul give me similar results?
    
  • supererogatory ethics: purchasing a soul to redeem it
  • making extra horcruxes
  • as a speculative play on my future earnings or labor in case I reconvert to any religion with the concept of souls and wish to repurchase my soul at any cost. This would constitute a long position with almost unlimited upside and is a unique investment opportunity.

    (Please note that I hold an informational advantage over most/all would-be investors and so souls likely constitute a lemon market.)

  • hedging against Pascal's Wager:

    presumably Satan will accept my soul instead of yours since damnation does not seem to confer property rights inasmuch as the offspring of dictators continue to enjoy their ill-gotten gains and are not evicted by his agents; similarly, one can expect him to honor his bargain with you since, as an immortal he has an infinite horizon of deals he jeopardizes if he welshes on your deal.

    Note that if he won't agree to a full 1:1 swap, you still benefit infinitely by bargaining him down to an agreement like torturing you every day via a process that converges on an indefinitely large but finite total sum of torture while still daily torturing you & fulfilling the requirements of being in Hell.

EDIT: Congratulations to Mr. Wittle.

Comment author: [deleted] 11 June 2013 05:24:20PM *  3 points [-]

My soul is here defined as my supernatural non-material essence as specified by Judeo-Christian philosophers, and not my computational pattern (over which I continue to claim copyright); transfer does not cover any souls of gwerns in alternate branches of the multiverses inasmuch as they have not consented.

What? This is lame. The definition of the soul as used by 16th century Catholic theology, which is friendly to information theory, is clearly the common sense interpretation and assumed among reasonable people. Sure some moderns love the definition you use but they are mostly believers of moralistic therapeutic deism, one hardly needs more evidence of their lack of theological expertise.

Comment author: gwern 13 June 2013 12:08:38AM 0 points [-]

The definition of the soul as used by 16th century Catholic theology, which is friendly to information theory, is clearly the common sense interpretation and assumed among reasonable people.

None of that seems true to me, although I'll admit I don't know what revolution happened in the 1500s in Catholic theology re souls.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 11 June 2013 05:54:26AM *  6 points [-]

Huh, reading this made me realize that there's apparently still a small bit of my brain that doesn't alieve in atheism. For a moment I considered whether I should try to get some profit out of selling my soul as well, and then felt uncomfortable over the idea, thinking "I should hold onto it, just in case..."

Comment author: gwern 13 June 2013 12:07:58AM 0 points [-]

I actually really decided to do the auction when I thought about the topic and realized that it didn't bother me at all. Might as well profit from my lack of belief/alief.

Comment author: Zaine 10 June 2013 07:00:20AM 1 point [-]

My soul is here defined as my supernatural non-material essence as specified by Judeo-Christian philosophers[...]

What do you intend to do with your soul(s) as defined by other schools of philosophy?
By Plato's theory of Ideal Forms, selling your soul would be tantamount to selling bits of the gods - and man has no claim to the gods. I'd advise against this lest you wish to become fate-brothers with Prometheus.

Comment author: [deleted] 10 June 2013 11:58:51AM 0 points [-]

By Plato's theory of Ideal Forms, selling your soul would be tantamount to selling bits of the gods

What? Citation needed.

Comment author: Zaine 10 June 2013 07:18:49PM 0 points [-]
Comment author: [deleted] 10 June 2013 11:31:04PM *  1 point [-]

Ah, Socrates supposes there that the soul is "like the divine" as opposed to the body which is like mortal things. He means that the soul is in the class of things that are unchanging, immutable, invisible, and grasped by the intellect rather than the senses, He doesn't say anything about the soul being a 'part of the gods'. And it doesn't sound like he's thinking of anything like the Prometheus myth, given the things he associates with the soul (ideal, invisible, immutable, etc.).

If you asked Plato about selling your soul, I think he would think you were just being silly.

Comment author: Zaine 10 June 2013 11:54:22PM 0 points [-]

If something was divine, then it was under the domain of the gods; I was making a simple extrapolation.

Comment author: [deleted] 11 June 2013 12:00:04AM 0 points [-]

Yeah, but that's not a sound inference, given the context. No mention is made there of the gods, and the context pulls wide away from reading 'divine' in terms of traditional Greek mythology. I see no reason to think Socrates (or Plato) thinks any of that stuff was real.

Comment author: JohnWittle 10 June 2013 12:48:07AM 2 points [-]

Heh, I would have bid 0.5btc if I had known I would be the only bidder...

Comment author: Vaniver 10 June 2013 12:58:45AM 4 points [-]

This makes this exchange all the more amusing.

Comment author: FourFire 10 June 2013 01:47:18AM 1 point [-]

I'm obviously missing something, but tally ho, I'll find out eventually!

Comment author: Vaniver 10 June 2013 03:04:09AM *  5 points [-]

A second-bid auction is one where all bidders submit their maximum willingness to pay, and then the bidder willing to pay the most pays what the second-highest bidder was willing to pay. An English auction is where bidders submit bids which they will have to pay, with the idea that once the second-highest bidder will stop raising the bid once they pass their threshold.

There's a lot of theoretical work showing that second-bid auctions are all-around more efficient. English auctions can encourage the highest bidder to overbid, and the winner's curse refers to the phenomenon that the winner of an auction is generally the person who overestimated its value by the most. Second bid auctions mitigate that by making them pay only the second highest estimate.

If JohnWittle is the only bidder in the auction, then in a second-bid auction he would receive gwern's soul for free, but because this is an English auction, he has to pay his full bid, and so loses out for dramatically overestimating its market value- like gwern planned all along!

Comment author: badger 10 June 2013 01:49:38PM 1 point [-]

There's a lot of theoretical work showing that second-bid auctions are all-around more efficient.

I'm don't specialize in auctions, but this sounds wrong. A second-price auction and an English auction are strategically equivalent in most formal models. Nearly all auctions yield identical revenue and allocations when bidders are risk-neutral expected utility maximizers with independent values. Experimentally, the second-price auction tends to generate more revenue than an English auction, at least in the case of private values.

With common or correlated values (where the winner's curse shows up), I'd think sealed bid auctions would lead to more winner overbidding than English or Dutch auctions. In these cases though, you really don't have to worry about efficiency since everyone values the item equally.

Comment author: Vaniver 10 June 2013 09:01:12PM *  0 points [-]

I'm don't specialize in auctions, but this sounds wrong. A second-price auction and an English auction are strategically equivalent in most formal models.

I should have been clearer by 'all-around'; I meant that the incentives are lined up correctly, the costs are lower (every person only needs to submit one bid, and does not need to expend any effort monitoring the auction), gets exact results without requiring massive numbers of bids, and more information is conveyed by the end of the auction.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 10 June 2013 04:49:10PM 0 points [-]

If JohnWittle is the only bidder in the auction, then in a second-bid auction he would receive gwern's soul for free,

Well, yes, technically that's true... but what prevents/discourages gwern (or his accomplice) from submitting an $N-1 bid (where N is the current sole bid amount)?

Comment author: Vaniver 10 June 2013 08:40:22PM 3 points [-]

Typically, second-bid auctions are sealed, and all opened at once at the end of the auction, so it won't be known that JohnWittle has bid, or how much he has bid, until the auction is over.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 10 June 2013 09:06:49PM 0 points [-]

Ah. (nods) That makes sense.

Comment author: gwern 10 June 2013 05:20:07PM 0 points [-]

If I were going to do that, I would simply have set a reserve price.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 10 June 2013 06:49:57PM 0 points [-]

Not the same thing, surely? Submitting an N-1 bid causes the top bidder to pay effectively their bid... in effect turning a second-bid auction into an English auction as defined above. Setting a reserve price sets a floor that has no relationship to the top bidder's bid.

But sure, the fact that you didn't set a reserve price also suggests that you wouldn't take advantage of this loophole in your counterfactual second-bid auction.

Comment author: StJohn 07 June 2013 12:18:03PM 10 points [-]

Sorry to ruin the fun but I'm afraid this sale is impossible. Gwern lacks the proprietary rights to his own soul. As the apostle St Paul writes in his letter to the Corinthians (chapter 6), "Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own? For you are bought with a great price. Glorify and bear God in your body." It clearly states that "you are not your own" which at least applies to baptized Christians (and as a confirmed Catholic, it may even apply to a higher degree). Unless gwern provides some scriptural basis for this sale, it cannot proceed. Even when Satan tempted Christ, the only proferred exchange was worship in return for temporal power. There are no cases (even hypothetical ones) of a direct sale of one's soul in the Church's Tradition.

In exchange for ruining this sale, I'll pray for your soul for free.

Comment author: Plasmon 07 June 2013 05:32:37PM 3 points [-]

Even when Satan tempted Christ, the only proferred exchange was worship in return for temporal power.

That's because Satan knows there's no such thing as a soul, and he is disinclined to lie.

Comment author: gwern 07 June 2013 04:00:44PM 1 point [-]

For you are bought with a great price.

This seems inapplicable to me; I haven't agreed to sell my soul yet, and so far the bidding hasn't been too active so it will hardly be for 'a great price'.

Comment author: [deleted] 07 June 2013 05:25:39PM 3 points [-]

I believe the "great price" is referring to God sacrificing Jesus to redeem the souls of all humanity, including (presumably) you.

But I'm hardly a biblical scholar; see below, lol.

Comment author: [deleted] 07 June 2013 02:01:21PM *  1 point [-]

I'd like to ruin gwern's sale too, but my misspent youth as a philosophy major just came back to haunt me.

[EDIT: This paragraph is completely wrong; see below. The end of 1 Corin 6:19 does not say "you are not your own"; it literally says "and [it] is not your own" (= καὶ οὐκ į¼ĻƒĻ„Īµ ἑαυτῶν) with an omitted subject. The only real possibility is the subject of the previous phrase, which you rendered as "your members." (= τὸ σῶμα ὑμῶν) I find this problematic (and not "clearly stated"), because σῶμα means both the Church as a group (usually in the form, "the body of Christ") and the physical body, as it does in e.g. Mat 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."]

Since in context 1 Corin 6:12-20 is about sexual immorality, I find the latter interpretation more compelling.

Regarding the Catholic tradition, time was when the Church claimed the authority to discharge sin from the soul in exchange for money.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 07 June 2013 02:55:37PM 6 points [-]

The end of 1 Corin 6:19 does not say "you are not your own"; it literally says "and [it] is not your own" (= καὶ οὐκ į¼ĻƒĻ„Īµ ἑαυτῶν)

You are wrong about this - here's the inflection of the word: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B5%E1%BC%B0%CE%BC%CE%AF#Ancient_Greek

"į¼ĻƒĻ„Īµ" is second person plural ("you are") NOT third person singular ("it is").

Comment author: [deleted] 07 June 2013 03:24:24PM 3 points [-]

Oh, blast. My biblical Greek is obviously too old. Retracting paragraph.

Comment author: [deleted] 07 June 2013 02:05:17PM 7 points [-]

you still benefit infinitely by bargaining him down to an agreement like torturing you every day via a process that converges on an indefinitely large but finite total sum of torture while still daily torturing you & fulfilling the requirements of being in Hell.

A tactic that almost definitely should be referred to as "Gabriel's Horn."

Comment author: listic 07 June 2013 01:22:43PM 3 points [-]

You definitely should auction it off in other places, where prospective buyers value such things much higher.

Comment author: gwern 07 June 2013 05:14:30PM *  3 points [-]

What other forums might value my soul? As a purchase, it's really most useful for atheists willing to do a simple expected-value calculation and hedge against a tail risk (theism); but for most people, buying a soul is largely otiose.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 07 June 2013 11:01:07PM 4 points [-]

Wait.... it seems you're suggesting that the expected value of a soul to an atheist exceeds the otiosity threshold. Did I read that right? I'm interested in your reasoning, if so.

Either way: the expected entertainment value to me of purchasing your soul far exceeds the expected value of the soul itself, and I suspect that's not uncommon, so I doubt the theological implications are a primary factor.

Comment author: gwern 08 June 2013 07:12:59PM 1 point [-]

Wait.... it seems you're suggesting that the expected value of a soul to an atheist exceeds the otiosity threshold. Did I read that right? I'm interested in your reasoning, if so.

It depends on one's subjective uncertainty. I know there are atheists who have been persuaded by visions or Pascal's wager that they were wrong, so the risk would seem to be real, and given the stakes, $120 seems like chump change for insurance - even if you try to defeat a Pascal's wager by bounded utility, the bound would have to be extremely large to be plausible...

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 08 June 2013 11:06:09PM 5 points [-]

If atheists thinks that there's a small chance that they will turn into theists and be glad to be in possession of a spare soul, then they must think that theists value spare souls. So it would seem more valuable to theists, who don't have to multiply the value of the transaction by the small chance.

There are some differences between typical theists and the hypothetical atheist-turned-theist. In particular, the theist has had a lifetime to keep a clean soul. But many theists think they do a bad job. If the spare soul has tail risk value to an atheist, it should have more value to the bad theists. The other difference is that the atheist is not a believer at the time of the transaction. Perhaps the belief of the theist makes it a greater sin to trade in souls.

But it seems like a lot of details have to go right for it to be a better deal for the atheist than the theist.

Comment author: Larks 07 June 2013 08:58:42AM 3 points [-]

My soul is here defined as my supernatural non-material essence as specified by Judeo-Christian philosophers, and not my computational pattern

What if these are in fact the same thing, in extension if not intention? Then you would be selling your computational pattern, in contradiction with

(over which I continue to claim copyright)

Comment author: gwern 07 June 2013 05:18:10PM 1 point [-]

I think that's unlikely enough that I'm willing to risk a tort of fraud if that turns out to be the case and I cannot convey my soul without also selling my personal copyright.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 06 June 2013 09:49:38PM 18 points [-]

Just increased my subjective probability that John Wittle is Satan.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 07 June 2013 03:53:25AM *  5 points [-]

The quitclaim doesn't help here. It merely quits your claim, which is relevant if ownership is disputed, but it doesn't give any more rights to the buyer than to anyone else (just more documentation of the quit). You should have been suspicious when taterbizkit mentioned that you can sell quitclaim deeds for a single item to multiple buyers.

Comment author: Elithrion 06 June 2013 10:55:42PM *  11 points [-]

I am really disappointed in you, gwern. Why would you use an English auction when you can use an incentive-compatible one (a second price auction, for example)? You're making it needlessly harder for bidders to come up with valuations!

(But I guess maybe if you're just trying to drive up the price, this may be a good choice. Sneaky.)

Comment author: gwern 06 June 2013 11:10:15PM 25 points [-]

(But I guess maybe if you're just trying to drive up the price, this may be a good choice. Sneaky.)

Having read about auctions before, I am well-aware of the winner's curse and expect coordination to be hard on bidding for this unique item.

Bwa ha ha! Behold - the economics of the damned.

Comment author: shminux 07 June 2013 12:17:28AM *  7 points [-]

I certify that my soul is intact and has not been employed in any dark rituals such as manufacturing horcruxes; I am also a member in good standing of the Catholic Church, having received confirmation etc. Note that my soul is almost certainly damned inasmuch as I am an apostate and/or an atheist, which I understand to be mortal sins.

Not sure how much I can trust the word of a damned. After all, lying is no more of a mortal sin than apostasy. And for an atheist there is no extra divine punishment for lying.

Comment author: gwern 07 June 2013 05:22:13PM 2 points [-]

After all, lying is no more of a mortal sin than apostasy. And for an atheist there is no extra divine punishment for lying.

Ah, but can we take your word for it? IIRC, you are one of my fellow damned...

Comment author: shminux 07 June 2013 05:47:21PM *  1 point [-]

I am not sure. I have never been baptized, so where my soul ends up depends on whether exclusivism, inclusivism, conditionalism or universalism is true.

Comment author: Vaniver 06 June 2013 10:36:53PM 9 points [-]

so souls likely constitute a lemon market.

applause

Comment author: lukeprog 06 June 2013 11:55:22PM 6 points [-]

One person who did this years ago spun the event into a book, a popular blog, and endless speaking gigs.

Comment author: gwern 07 June 2013 12:01:16AM 7 points [-]

That's an interesting comparison, but I'm selling my soul, and it looks like he was just selling his time:

Mehta, an atheist, once held an unusual auction on eBay: the highest bidder could send Mehta to a church of his or her choice. The winner, who paid $504, asked Mehta to attend numerous churches, and this book comprises Mehta's responses to 15 worshipping communities, including such prominent megachurches as Houston's Second Baptist, Ted Haggard's New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo., and Willow Creek in suburban Chicago.

Comment author: lukeprog 07 June 2013 12:08:03AM 2 points [-]

Oh right, I was misremembering what he did.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 06 June 2013 09:29:13PM 9 points [-]

Note that if you can get a high price from Satan on your own soul (e.g. rulership of a country), this is a no-lose arbitrage deal since souls are fungible goods.

Comment author: Decius 07 June 2013 03:17:42AM 5 points [-]

souls are fungible goods.

Reference?

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 07 June 2013 05:36:53AM 4 points [-]

I tried to find that "all are equal in the eyes of God" verse, but apparently there isn't one. Curious.

Comment author: FriendlyButConcerned 06 June 2013 10:08:11PM 1 point [-]

ā€œGet behind me, Cobra! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of That Which Newcomb's Angel Serves, but merely human concerns.ā€

Comment author: TheOtherDave 07 June 2013 01:46:46AM 4 points [-]

conversely, if Satan insists on my soul, I can let Satan have my soul and use yours instead.

Comment author: Gnnthkcclqnrx 07 June 2013 01:45:03AM 3 points [-]

FYI, according to galactic law, transactions like this are valid only to the extent that the implicit metaphysics of the contract is correct. If you wish to guarantee the property rights of your soul's new owner, you should add a meta clause indicating valid interpretive generalizations of content and intent.

Comment author: gwern 07 June 2013 03:48:32AM 3 points [-]

I'm afraid I can't afford a barrister admitted to the Trantor bar to look over the contractual details, but thanks for the advice.

Comment author: CronoDAS 07 June 2013 03:02:36AM 2 points [-]

has never been anyone else's

Hindus and some other groups may disagree with that. ;)

Comment author: Decius 07 June 2013 03:18:18AM *  6 points [-]

If you can find evidence that they are correct, you could have a fraud claim. However, the contract defines the soul being sold as that described by the Judeo-Christian philosophers.

Comment author: Decius 07 June 2013 04:05:18AM 1 point [-]

Are you accepting bids in things other than currencies commonly used for exchange? I would like to offer a finely crafted narrative instead of bitcoins.

Comment author: gwern 07 June 2013 03:07:40PM 1 point [-]

Hm, is your narrative so compelling that I would accept jam tomorrow instead of bitcoin today?

Comment author: thomblake 10 June 2013 07:23:21PM 0 points [-]

Upvoted for the multilayered pun

Comment author: folkTheory 07 June 2013 06:19:15AM 3 points [-]

Does anyone know of a way to convert .anki files to .apkg files?

I recently started using anki, but most of the decks I downloaded are .anki, and can't be opened by ankidroid...

Comment author: shminux 06 June 2013 05:14:55PM 5 points [-]

I'm wondering if CFAR ever tried to approach Rowling for a permission to get HPMoR monetized for charitable and transhumanist purposes, on whichever terms.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 07 June 2013 08:35:24PM 6 points [-]

Probably safer to do that after HPMoR is finished. Otherwise there is a chance she would forward the letter to her lawyer, the lawyer would send a cease and desist letter to CFAR, and then what?

If the same thing happens after HPMoR is finished, it can be removed from web and shared among LW members in ways that give plausible deniability to CFAR. But you can't have plausible deniability while Eliezer continues to write new chapters.

Comment author: shminux 07 June 2013 09:26:57PM *  1 point [-]

Otherwise there is a chance she would forward the letter to her lawyer, the lawyer would send a cease and desist letter to CFAR, and then what?

JKR is on the record as no longer opposing non-slash fanfiction:

For the avoidance of doubt, our clients make no complaint about innocent fan fiction written by genuine Harry Potter fans.

so this is probably a bit paranoid. But I suppose your second paragraph makes sense.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 08 June 2013 07:49:42AM *  2 points [-]

A big part of the cease-fire between IP holders and fanfic authors is probably the unwritten rule that the fanfic shall not be directly monetized.

Comment author: gwern 08 June 2013 06:09:08PM 4 points [-]

Sometimes written, too. For example, in Japanese doujins, we have the Touhou Project/ZUN issuing an explicit license where Touhou creators are given permission to do their thing, but if they want to sell their works outside a convention like Reitaisai or a doujin-focused reseller like Toranoana, they have to contact him and work out a licensing agreement.

Comment author: cousin_it 06 June 2013 12:44:38PM *  2 points [-]

Naive evo-psych seems to imply that having a big family should make me more attractive, for two reasons: 1) it's evidence that my genes cause many surviving kids, 2) more people will share resources to help my kids survive. But that doesn't seem to work in real life. Why?

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 06 June 2013 08:00:39PM 6 points [-]

"Real life" doesn't even remotely resemble the ancestral environment. In the modern world, a big family is evidence about your cultural background, especially the relationship between your cultural background and contraception, and that might be a turn-off for some. This is the same kind of phenomenon that makes having extra fat evidence, in the ancestral environment, that you were good at acquiring food and other resources, but in the modern world it's evidence that you're poor or lack access to good food or lack self-control or whatever.

Comment author: cousin_it 06 June 2013 09:30:46PM *  1 point [-]

Yeah, saying "evo-psych doesn't work" is one way to answer my question :-)

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 06 June 2013 09:33:22PM *  3 points [-]

I mean, I'd rather say "evo-psych has a certain domain of applicability, and also it's not the only force that shapes human behavior, and also most people who try to apply evo-psych don't understand the evolutionary-cognitive boundary, and..."

It seems a little presumptuous to say "if I naively apply this idea, I get something that looks wrong, therefore this is a dumb idea" instead of saying "if I naively apply this idea, I get something that looks wrong, therefore I may have applied it in a dumb way." Have you read an actual textbook on evolutionary psychology?

Comment author: cousin_it 06 June 2013 10:03:25PM *  3 points [-]

Nope. I was kind of hoping some expert would answer.

To reformulate the question, is there some easy way to see that my prediction is wrong without going out and checking? The arguments in your first comment apply to all of evo-psych equally. Your second comment mentioned the "evolutionary-cognitive boundary" which doesn't seem to be what I want, unless I'm missing something...

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 07 June 2013 03:33:58AM 1 point [-]

Do you (not) observe this both with males and females?

Baboons are supposed to be a good model for human social structure, though not as smart as apes. They are matrilocal, so they don't know how big the male's family was. The female's status is largely determined by alliances, which are made of family blocks. They do get some grooming work out of allies. They might be able to get work out of low status females, who love to hold high status babies, but the mothers don't trust them, perhaps out of fear for the baby, perhaps out of fear of status contagion. Anyhow, since (2) is true, it's hard to measure (1). But it is probably better to look at anthropological evidence than baboons.

Large families mean low infant mortality and low maternal mortality. Low infant mortality might be due to good genes, or good provisioning. A woman from a large family might provide genetic protection against maternal mortality, but not a man from a large family. If infant mortality is due to bad infant genes, siblings testify to this kind of gene, but it might not be different from other kinds of robustness that can be measured in adulthood. If it's paternal provisioning, then maybe it's evidence that the man inherited dad strategy genes (vs cad strategy), but hunter-gatherer couplings probably were not long term so the large family is not highly informative. The farming environment seems like it should select for the behavior you suggest, but people usually assume it didn't last very long so didn't shape much.

Comment author: [deleted] 06 June 2013 05:41:24AM 1 point [-]

I'm wondering if the following statement is true: The word "ought" means whatever we ought to believe that it means.

Now, certainly, that statement could be false. There could be a society whose code of ethics states that you must disagree with the code of ethics. But I'm asking whether or not it is false, for us actual humans. And it might be false if you take "we" to mean someone like Adolf Hitler: perhaps Hitler professed his actual beliefs about ethics, and people nowadays think Hitler was so horrible that if Hitler believed something was right, it was probably wrong, and vice versa; and so it would have been best for Hitler's ethical beliefs to be as wrong as possible, so that people who think Hitler was wrong most of the time will come to the correct conclusions. But by "we", I don't mean "each individual human being who has ever lived and ever will live"; I just mean "human society as a whole".

In theory, if this statement were true, we would be able to take sentences like "we ought to believe that murder is wrong" and use them to conclude sentences like "murder is wrong". In practice, this seems like it would only be rarely useful, because it's hard to determine whether or not we ought to believe that a conduct is wrong unless we already know whether or not it is wrong.

Comment author: Manfred 09 June 2013 03:25:30PM 1 point [-]

For a reflectively consistent person (let's call her Alice), the word "ought" according to Alice means whatever Alice ought according to Alice believe that it means.

Comment author: gwern 05 June 2013 08:42:37PM 2 points [-]

MoR and munchkining fans may enjoy this application to Railgun: http://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/1fpome/just_a_fanart_of_railgun_characters/cacmewm

Comment author: Prismattic 05 June 2013 11:09:11PM 1 point [-]

I think this Noah Smith disquisition on "derp" might be a useful thing to refer people to when one gets tired of referring them to PITMK. It crystalizes for me why I find a lot of political commentary unbearable to read/listen to.

Comment author: Matt_Simpson 22 July 2013 01:57:32PM 1 point [-]

Politics is the mind killer for a variety of reasons besides ridiculously strong priors that are never swayed by evidence. Strong priors isn't even the entirety of the phenomena to be explained (though it is a big part), let alone a fundamental explanation.

Also, I really like Noah's post (and was about to post it in the current open thread before I found your post). Not only did Noah attach a word to a pretty commonly occurring phenomenon, the word seems to have a great set of connotations attached to it, given some goals about improving discourse.

Comment author: FiftyTwo 09 June 2013 08:37:13PM 0 points [-]

PITMK?

Comment author: Pablo_Stafforini 05 June 2013 11:09:07PM *  1 point [-]

Of interest to folks close to Oxford only.

Max Tegmark will be giving a talk, "The future of life: a cosmic perspectiveā€, on June 10 at 12:30pm. The event is open to the public and free of charge, and will take place on the Martin Wood Lecture Theatre, Department of Physics, 20 Parks Road, Oxford OX1 3PU (Google maps). More details here.

Comment author: Pablo_Stafforini 11 June 2013 05:31:10PM *  0 points [-]

The talk is now online, here.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 05 June 2013 07:14:40AM 8 points [-]

On BBC Radio 4 this morning I heard of a government initiative, "Books on Prescription". It's a list of self-help books drawn up by some committee as actually having evidence of usefulness, and which are to be made available in all public libraries. They give a list of evidence-based references.

General page for Books on Prescription.

The reading list.

The evidence, a list of scientific studies in the literature.

I have not read any of the books (which is why I'm not posting this in the Media Thread), but I notice from the titles that a lot of them are based on Cognitive Behavioural Techniques, which are generally well thought of on LessWrong.

The site also mentions a set of Mood-boosting Books, "uplifting novels, non-fiction and poetry". These are selected from recommendations made by the general public, so I would say, without having read any of them, of lesser expected value. FWIW, here's the list for 2012 (of which, again, I have read none).

Comment author: [deleted] 06 June 2013 05:56:46AM 1 point [-]

I notice that almost all of those books are about things that are considered "mental problems" (the exceptions being chronic fatigue, chronic pain, and relationship problems, which are nevertheless specific problems). So if a self-help book isn't about a particular problem (like How to Win Friends and Influence People and The Seven Habits), or the problem it talks about isn't primarily psychological (like Getting Things Done), then it won't appear on that list regardless of how good it is.

(Stating my opinions here so that you won't have to guess: My brother, who seems quite sensible and whom I admire very much, states that all three of the books mentioned here are very good. Getting Things Done taught me one extremely useful lesson, probably among the top five most useful things I have ever learned. I have little evidence, apart from this stuff, that any of these books are useful.)

Comment author: FiftyTwo 05 June 2013 02:04:33PM 2 points [-]
Comment author: endoself 05 June 2013 09:20:22AM 2 points [-]

From If Many-Worlds had Come First:

the thought experiment goes: 'Hey, suppose we have a radioactive particle that enters a superposition of decaying and not decaying. Then the particle interacts with a sensor, and the sensor goes into a superposition of going off and not going off. The sensor interacts with an explosive, that goes into a superposition of exploding and not exploding; which interacts with the cat, so the cat goes into a superposition of being alive and dead. Then a human looks at the cat,' and at this point Schrƶdinger stops, and goes, 'gee, I just can't imagine what could happen next.' So Schrƶdinger shows this to everyone else, and they're also like 'Wow, I got no idea what could happen at this point, what an amazing paradox'. Until finally you hear about it, and you're like, 'hey, maybe at that point half of the superposition just vanishes, at random, faster than light', and everyone else is like, 'Wow, what a great idea!'"

Obviously this is a parody and Eliezer is making an argument for many worlds. However, this isn't that far from how the thought experiment is presented in introductory books and even popularizations. Why, then, don't more people realize that many worlds is correct? Why aren't tons of bright middle-school children who read science fiction and popular science spontaneously rediscovering many worlds?

Comment author: shminux 06 June 2013 05:33:13PM *  6 points [-]

Why, then, don't more people realize that many worlds is correct?

Note that you are using Eliezer!correct, not Physics!correct. The former is based on Bayesian reasoning among models with equivalent predictive power, the latter requires different predictive power to discriminate between theories. The problem with the former reasoning is that without experimental validation it is hard to agree on the priors and other assumptions going into the Bayesian calculation for MWI correctness. Additionally, proclaiming MWI "correct" is not instrumentally useful unless one can use it to advance physical knowledge.

'hey, maybe at that point half of the superposition just vanishes, at random, faster than light'

It's worse than that, actually. In some frames it means not just FTL but also back in time. But given that this is unmeasurable, it matters not in the slightest if you adopt the Physics!correct definition.

Comment author: ChristianKl 05 June 2013 12:38:03PM 1 point [-]

For those who believe that the US is a democracy in the sense that public policy is an aggregate of public opinion, how do you deal with the fact that 42% of the US population don't know that Obamacare is actually law?

If the population doesn't even know about the easy facts, how do you expect a democracy in which public policy is driven by public discourse to work?

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 06 June 2013 09:08:22AM 2 points [-]

Note that this isn't particularly specific to the US. The situation is pretty much the same in every country, AFAIK.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 05 June 2013 05:10:31PM 3 points [-]

I'm currently in a weeklong design meeting. On Monday, the guy leading the meeting proposed a schedule for what we were doing when, in which my presentation was Monday, a likely followup for my presentation was Friday, and various other things were true. Some people objected, and he changed some stuff, though not those two things. Nobody objected to it, and it's the schedule we're using.

I have no idea what we're going to do this afternoon or tomorrow, and I was surprised by what we did yesterday and this morning. At no time have I ever known, I didn't bother to listen when it was announced. I don't care what we discuss when, as long as I know when my topics are so I can prep.

Still, I'm happy to say that our schedule is an aggregate of public opinion.

Would you disagree?

I approach public policy in a democracy similarly. Sure, most of us don't know anything about anything, but I'm not sure how much that really matters.

That being said, I'm also not sure how much I endorse public policy driven by public discourse. "Worst system in the world except for everything else we've ever tried" comes to mind.

Comment author: shminux 05 June 2013 04:13:11AM 2 points [-]

Today I learned that there exist electromagnetic waves in vacuum with electric and magnetic fields parallel to each other. Freaky...

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 04 June 2013 04:00:50PM *  9 points [-]

I scraped the last few hundred pages of comments on Main and Discussion, and made a simple application for pulling the highest TF-IDF-scoring words for any given user.

I'll provide these values for the first ten respondents who want them. [Edit: that's ten]

EDIT: some meta-information - the corpus comprises 23.8 MB, and spans the past 400 comment pages on Main and Discussion (around six months and two and a half months respectively). The most prolific contributor is gwern with ~780kB. Eliezer clocks in at ~280kB.

Comment author: Kawoomba 06 June 2013 08:16:32PM 2 points [-]

Can you comment on your methodology - tools, wget scripts or what?

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 06 June 2013 11:12:34PM 1 point [-]

Scraping is done with python and lxml, and the scoring is done in Java. It came about as I needed to brush up on my Java for work, and was looking for an extensible project.

I also didn't push it to my personal repo, so all requests will have to wait until I'm back at work.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 06 June 2013 10:57:50AM 1 point [-]

I'll provide these values for the first ten respondents who want them.

Yes please. I have no idea what they will look like.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 06 June 2013 11:26:04AM 1 point [-]

suffering -> 25.000
god -> 24.508
does -> 24.383
causal -> 21.584
np -> 21.259
utility -> 20.470
agi -> 20.470
who -> 20.169
pill -> 19.353
bayesian -> 18.965
u1 -> 17.567

The word 'who' seems to come up a lot for the contributors at the more prolific end of the scale. I don't have a satisfactory answer why this should be the case. Your contribution comprises ~170kB of plain text.

Comment author: jkaufman 04 June 2013 06:00:16PM 3 points [-]

What about for the site overall?

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 04 June 2013 10:12:41PM 3 points [-]

This was my eventual plan, but I haven't settled on a general corpus to compare it to yet.

Comment author: [deleted] 11 June 2013 05:52:40PM *  0 points [-]

If I'm counting the replies correctly, nine respondents requested them so far. I'd like my word values. Thank you!

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 12 June 2013 10:09:14AM 1 point [-]

political -> 28.733
power -> 27.093
moldbug -> 26.135
structural -> 24.192
he -> 24.082
reactionary -> 23.480
blog -> 21.973
good -> 21.373
social -> 20.470
his -> 20.470
very -> 20.169

Your contribution is ~167kB.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 10 June 2013 10:48:42AM 0 points [-]

May I have mine? Thanks.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 10 June 2013 11:46:40AM 0 points [-]

moral -> 35.017
thread -> 34.250
bob -> 25.163
preferences -> 24.383
eu -> 23.739
column -> 23.537
matrix -> 23.419
mugging -> 22.367
pascals -> 21.479
lord -> 19.515
eg -> 19.266

Your contribution to the corpus is ~100kB.

Comment author: FiftyTwo 09 June 2013 08:41:09PM 0 points [-]

An alternative would be to ask people for donations to Against Malaria Foundation or your preferred charity.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 04 June 2013 07:51:40PM 4 points [-]

It's a bit of a truism that you can't do micropayments to cover the true marginal cost of serving a webpage, adding a user to your service, or other Internet activities, because the gap between free and epsilon is psychologically larger than the gap between epsilon and a dollar. It occurs to me that this curious psychology seems to map onto a logarithmic utility in money: Clearly the difference between lim(x to zero)[log(x)] and log(epsilon) is larger than the difference between log(epsilon) and log(1) for any finite value of epsilon. I'm not sure if this actually explains anything, but I thought it was kind of neat.

Comment author: [deleted] 09 June 2013 10:26:30PM 1 point [-]

The inconvenience of setting up a payment method may play some role.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 06 June 2013 09:01:19AM *  4 points [-]

Incidentally, I'm confused over the fact that so few sites or people seem to use Flattr, despite it basically solving this problem. (Well, it's microdonations rather than micropayments, so you can't really require your users to pay anything, but still.)

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 06 June 2013 06:23:25PM *  2 points [-]

Which came first, the massive user base or the many clients? Looks like a classic chicken-egg problem to me.

Edit to add: Which being said, I just signed up for it as a creator. :)

Comment author: Khoth 06 June 2013 12:37:49PM 2 points [-]

I've not noticed websites I like using flattr, so I have no reason to sign up for it.

Very few people use it, so it's not worth it for sites to sign up for it.

Comment author: ChristianKl 05 June 2013 12:43:12PM 4 points [-]

The interesting thing about that observation is that it's very much about how the internet get's used in the West. In China where a lot of internet use happens in internet cafƩs where uses pay the internet cafƩ by the hour micropayments for virtual goods are used more frequently than in the West.

Additionally transaction costs are a big deal when it comes to micropayments. Paypal's micromayment fee is 5% + $0.05 per transaction. If we would have cheap micropayment there a chance that a greater ecosystem of services that need micropayments can grow.

Bitcoin did promise being cheap but still have some substantial transaction costs. On the other hand Ripple (https://ripple.com/) provides the opportunity of a cost of $0.0001 per transaction.

Comment author: palladias 04 June 2013 06:23:46PM 4 points [-]

I reviewed A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy at my blog ("Modern Stoicism – The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"). It's a philosophy book that's focused on being actionable, not just a historical survey, but I think it too-casually brushes off some of the unpleasant side effects of stoicism.

The desire to employ your Stoicism on a higher difficulty setting, coupled with the habit of seeing other people as obstacles can make you care less about other people. You root for them to be worse then they are. I used to wish that a girl who had only insulted me might try to hit me, so I could maintain my equanimity in the face of a bigger provocation. If a middle school bully mellowed with age, I would be a little disappointed, as my short bus ride was now wasted time, instead of a training opportunity.

Comment author: ChristianKl 05 June 2013 01:19:47PM 1 point [-]

You can't control whether or not the girl will hit or insult you. As a result hoping that she would do one of those things goes against stoicist ideals.

It's much better to seek out-of-comfort zone experiences where you can control that you have the experience. Instead of depending on the bully in the bus to provide an experience in which you can grow you can go and have fun dancing in the bus.

A year ago I was in a personal development seminar that's partly about improving one's charisma and finding the courage to do what one likes.

At the end of the day there's live music and most people just sit there listening and watching the musicians. I went and danced in alone in front of >200 people because I felt like dancing. I got a bunch of positive social feedback for it.

Stoicism doesn't have to be about having no fun and doing nothing. It's rather about reducing negative emotions.

Comment author: drethelin 05 June 2013 06:05:59PM 1 point [-]

It seems like the actual correct play would be to go and DO HARD THINGS. Those will naturally more negative emotions and also be more useful.

Comment author: Kawoomba 04 June 2013 01:15:32PM 1 point [-]

(Usual informational hazard warning to attract attention. Warning before compulsory dedicating your attention: it's only the usual hazard. (Collective disappointed sigh))

Interesting smackd..., ah, discussion, between XiXiDu and Aris Kats Aris. If the link doesn't work, it's the Google+ discussion also linked to from the top of this blog post.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 04 June 2013 01:49:15PM *  1 point [-]

between XiXiDu and Aris Kats Aris

A small note: "Katsaris" is my last name and a single word, it doesn't split into "Kats Aris". :-)

Comment author: Kawoomba 04 June 2013 02:17:20PM *  4 points [-]

Your name is an anagram goldmine ripe for a bonanza. From the litany "as a Sir Tarski" to my "sis, Aria Stark" (works just phonetically), your name implies a role "as AI Risk tsar".

Comment author: [deleted] 03 June 2013 09:04:08PM *  12 points [-]

I am confused. This Washington Post article appears to describe a preliminary study which suggests that politics is less of a mindkiller if you ask people to bet money on their beliefs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/03/if-you-pay-them-money-partisans-will-tell-you-the-truth/

And I am confused because what appear to be my attempts to find the paper resulted in two papers with entirely different abstracts. And papers. Example:

Abstract 1:

"Our conclusion is that the apparent gulf in factual beliefs between members of different parties may be more illusory than real."

Abstract 2:

"Partisan gaps in correct responding are reduced only moderately when incentives are offered, which constitutes some of the strongest evidence to date that such patterns reflect sincere differences in factual beliefs."

http://huber.research.yale.edu/materials/39_paper.pdf

http://themonkeycage.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/bullockgerberhuber.pdf?343c0a

I realize the dates on the papers are different, but the shifts seem very dramatic. Thoughts?

Comment author: Lumifer 05 June 2013 05:47:13PM 1 point [-]
Comment author: JoshuaZ 04 June 2013 04:20:40AM *  3 points [-]

This suggests that studies about partisan confusion about truth are overblown. I haven't had a chance to look at the actual paper yet, but the upshot is that this study suggests that while there is a lot of prior evidence that people are likely to state strong factual errors supporting their own partisan positions, they are substantially less likely to occur when people are told they will be given money for correct statements. The suggestion is that people know (at some level) that their answers are false and are saying them more as signaling than anything else.

Edit:Clarify

Comment author: OrphanWilde 04 June 2013 02:04:02PM 6 points [-]

Alternative explanation: They're shutting up and multiplying.

Most people have gone through the education system. Most people know how to guess the teacher's password. Most people have learned better than to assume their answers will be counted correct just because they have (in their opinions) good reasons for holding those answers.

Does putting an incentive on getting the answers "right" lead to "right" answers, or does it lead to people answering the way they expect you to treat as being right? My own educational history suggests the latter.

Comment author: Fhyve 04 June 2013 03:17:16AM 3 points [-]

I want to improve my exposition and writing skills, but whenever I think "what do I know that I can explain to people that isn't explained well elsewhere?" not much comes to mind. I think that happens because it is hard to just do a search of everything that I know. The main topics that I know are math and rationality (mostly LW epistemic rationality, but also a little instrumental and LW moral philosophy). So I ask:

What is a topic in math or rationality that you wish were explained better or explained at a different level (casual, technical, etc.) than what already exists? Like, something that you know now but wish had been explained to you better, something that you don't know but wish you did, or something that you wish you could explain to other people but don't know of any sources to send them to.

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 06 June 2013 08:09:38PM *  2 points [-]

I think that happens because it is hard to just do a search of everything that I know.

There are tools you can use to solve this problem! Have you tried mindmapping everything you know, e.g. with FreeMind?

whenever I think "what do I know that I can explain to people that isn't explained well elsewhere?" not much comes to mind.

At least in math, many topics are explained well at some high level but not explained well at a lower level. There's always more work to be done explaining math to the general population; the gulf between what could be explained and what has already been explained is absurd.

Comment author: Zaine 04 June 2013 08:28:22PM 1 point [-]

Pretend you're to have a conversation with a friend in which you need to explain a topic before proceeding. Write your dialogue.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 04 June 2013 04:28:51AM 8 points [-]

I want to improve my exposition and writing skills, but whenever I think "what do I know that I can explain to people that isn't explained well elsewhere?" not much comes to mind

If improving your skills is your main goal, you should just write, regardless of whether better explanations already exist elsewhere. Actually, such explanations already existing could even be an advantage, as it provides you with feedback: after writing your own, you can look up existing ones and compare what you did better and what you did worse.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 04 June 2013 10:47:21AM 2 points [-]

I want to improve my exposition and writing skills, but whenever I think "what do I know that I can explain to people that isn't explained well elsewhere?" not much comes to mind.

That seems like the wrong question to start with for casual writing. Some version of it might make sense for academic publishing.

Is there some math you're having fun with that you'd like to try explaining?

If you'd like a great big project, how about rationality for people of average intelligence?

Comment author: ModusPonies 03 June 2013 12:09:03PM 5 points [-]

Reminder: Boston is hosting a megameetup on July 13-14.

Comment author: gothgirl420666 02 June 2013 07:53:45PM 8 points [-]

Improving my social skills is going to be my number one priority for a while. I don't see this subject discussed too much on LW, which is strange because it's one of the biggest correlates with happiness and I think we could benefit a lot from a rational discussion in this area. So I was wondering if anyone has any ideas, musings, relevant links, recommendations, etc. that could be useful for this. Stuff that breaks from the traditional narrative of "just be nicer and more confident" is particularly appreciated. (Unless maybe that is all it takes.)

Optional background regarding my personal situation: I am a 19 yo male (as of tomorrow) who is going to enter college in the fall. I'm not atrociously socially inadept, e.g. I can carry on conversations, can be very bold and confident in short bursts sometimes, I have some friends, I've had girlfriends in the past. However, I also find it very hard to make close friends that I can hang out with one on one, I sometimes find myself feeling like I'm taking a very submissive role socially, and I feel nervous or "in my head" a lot in social interactions, among other things. Not to be melodramatic, but I find myself wishing a decent amount that I had more friends and was more popular.

Comment author: wedrifid 03 June 2013 05:50:38AM *  15 points [-]

Improving my social skills is going to be my number one priority for a while. I don't see this subject discussed too much on LW, which is strange because it's one of the biggest correlates with happiness and I think we could benefit a lot from a rational discussion in this area.

Discussion on lesswrong on that subject would most likely not be rational. Various forms of idealism result in mind killed advice giving which most decidedly is not optimized for the benefit of the recipient.

Stuff that breaks from the traditional narrative of "just be nicer and more confident" is particularly appreciated. (Unless maybe that is all it takes.)

Get out of your house, go where the people are and interact with them. Do this for 4 hours per day for a year (on top of whatever other incidental interactions your other activities entail). If "number one priority" was not hyperbole that level of exertion is easily justifiable and nearly certain to produce dramatic results. (Obviously supplementing this with a little theory and tweaking the environment chosen and tactics used are potential optimisations. But the active practice part is the key.)

Comment author: gothgirl420666 04 June 2013 02:20:01AM *  3 points [-]

Discussion on lesswrong on that subject would most likely not be rational. Various forms of idealism result in mind killed advice giving which most decidedly is not optimized for the benefit of the recipient.

I agree that when social skills are usually discussed, various forms of idealism tend to result in mind killed advice. The standard set of advice in particular seems to mostly ignore the fact that a) status exists, i.e. it is very possible to be liked and not respected, and sometimes the latter overpowers the former and b) some people genuinely have large personality flaws that make them unpleasant to be around.

I was hoping LessWrong would be able to avoid this idealism, as they do in most other areas, which is why I posted here. Do you think that LessWrong would be worse than average in this regard? Why? And do you think there is anywhere I could have a rational discussion about this stuff?

Get out of your house, go where the people are and interact with them. Do this for 4 hours per day for a year (on top of whatever other incidental interactions your other activities entail)

Like I said in another post in this thread, I don't think it's at all a given that if you socialize enough, you will eventually develop good social skills, and I think that reading a bit of stuff on the subject in the last month helped me about as much as all the social experiences I've had in the last year.

But something about the idea of making it a priority to spend x amount of time a day specifically seeking out social interactions makes sense and is appealing to me. I don't know if four hours a day is the right amount - I will have to experiment, but I can very much see myself implementing something like this.

One problem with widely recommending this is that it seems to me like many, if not most people are not at all in a position to reliably be able to follow this advice. But I imagine someone with low to moderate social skills on a college campus probably can.

Comment author: drethelin 02 June 2013 09:20:54PM 5 points [-]

Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice. You have to go out of your way to hang out with people to get any good at being fun to hang out with. WARNING: This does not mean you have to spend time at loud parties or bars or clubs. While they pretend to be areas for socializing, they're not really. It's one thing if you enjoy dancing or drinking, but places that are less loud and crowded are a lot better for conversation.

Comment author: gothgirl420666 02 June 2013 11:33:06PM *  3 points [-]

Practice Practice Practice Practice Practice. You have to go out of your way to hang out with people to get any good at being fun to hang out with.

I've done this and it didn't really work. Maybe it worked a little, but not at a very fast rate. To be honest, I think reading a small amount of social skills stuff and thinking about how to solve the problem a little helped much more than all the "practice" I've done in the last year or so.

Obviously you can't take this to the extreme and expect that you can instantly go from Michael Cera to Casanova just by sitting alone reading stuff and watching videos in your room, but I don't think the statement "If you spend enough time in social interactions, you will inevitably develop good social skills" is at all true either.

It's one thing if you enjoy dancing or drinking

I kind of despise the former and love the latter. :\

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 June 2013 08:20:37AM *  5 points [-]

I kind of despise the former and love the latter.

Did you try dancing lessons?

I hated dancing before I learned it, but I love it now. I am very bad at "learning by copying others", but with good explicit education I became a decent dancer.

(Note: Almost everyone adviced me against explicit learning, because they said it wouldn't be "natural" or "romantic". I ignored all this advice, and now no one complains about the result. Contrary to predictions, learning the steps explicitly helped me to improvise later. Seems like people just have a strong taboo about applying reductionism to romantic activities like dancing.)

Comment author: Nisan 03 June 2013 02:45:06PM 1 point [-]

Interesting; no one has ever told me that dancing lessons are a bad idea. I think we live in very different cultures. (Other things you have said in the past have also given me his impression.)

Comment author: [deleted] 09 June 2013 09:17:30PM 1 point [-]

(Other things you have said in the past have also given me his impression.)

Me too.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 June 2013 03:39:18PM *  13 points [-]

No, no, no, this was a bad explanation on my part. No one told me that dancing lessons are bad idea per se... only that my specific learning style is.

This is what works best for me: Show me the moves. Now show me those moves again very slowly, beat by beat. Show me separately what feet do; then what hands and head do. Tell me at which moment which leg supports the weight (I don't see it, and it is important). When and how exactly do I signal to my girl what is expected from her. (In some rare situations, to get it, I need to try her movements, too.) I still don't get it, but be patient with me. Let me repeat the first beat, and tell me what was wrong. Again, until it is right. Then the second beat. Etc. Then the whole thing together. Now let's do the same thing again, and again, and again, exactly the same way. Then something "clicks" in my head, and I get the move... and since that moment I can lead, improvise, talk during dance, whatever. -- As a beginner I was blessed with a partner who didn't run away screaming somewhere in the middle of this. Later my learning became faster, partially because I learned to ask the proper questions. And I had a good luck to dancing teacher who was a former engineer, so he was able to comply with my strange demands.

In contrast, this is what seems to me a typical learning process, at the dancing lessons: Teacher shows the steps quickly. Then shows the steps quickly again. And again. At this moment people in the room start getting it, and they do it halfway correctly. And the more they do it, the better they get.

This absolutely does not work for me. I can learn to do things slowly; but I can't learn then quickly, not even approximately. I can progress from "slowly but correctly" to "quickly but correctly", but I can't progress from "incorrectly" to "correctly" at any speed by mere repetition and observation. Most people seem to have this ability to copy each other. I don't. I need to be explained the mechanism, step by step. (And this is not just in dancing. Sorry for touching an irrelevant taboo topic, but the PUA literature did exactly the same thing for me about human relations. Despite all the biases et cetera, that was the only source that told me explicitly what most humans learn by copying and probably never bother to explain in a way comprehensive to me.)

Now, after seeing my learning style, the typical reaction was that I should stop doing that, because my dancing style will be ugly and "robotic", and my partners will feel uncomfotable. Instead I should just do what other people are doing, for a very long time. Wrong in both aspects. First, doing what other people do, just for a longer time, sometimes does not work for me. My head just works differently, or something. Second, after the moment the moves "click" in my head, my dancing becomes okay. If you didn't see me at the beginning, you would not expect I had so much trouble learning that. Actually, I got feedback from new partners that I dance better than average, and that I am very good at leading. I can teach a girl a new dance in 5 minutes and then lead her so that no one expects she is doing this for the first time. -- This is the other side of how my head works: It takes me a lot of time to understand something, but then I can explain it extremely quickly. (Again, this is not just in dancing. I used to teach maths privately, and the results were good. Many people can do math, but can't teach it. Although I didn't have the same kind of problem learning maths, probably because it already is pretty explicit.)

Comment author: TheOtherDave 02 June 2013 08:48:43PM 2 points [-]

The best advice I've ever received along these lines is "treat people as though they were already close friends." In my case, that mostly means having conversations with them about topics I actually care about, as opposed to conventional topics.

IME, this weirds a number of people out, who subsequently don't interact with me much, but that's not necessarily a problem.

It also causes people to think I'm coming on to them, which is sometimes a problem, but was less of one when I was in the dating pool.

Comment author: gothgirl420666 02 June 2013 11:49:22PM *  1 point [-]

The best advice I've ever received along these lines is "treat people as though they were already close friends." In my case, that mostly means having conversations with them about topics I actually care about, as opposed to conventional topics.

I always interpreted that piece of advice as meaning something more along the lines of "Be as enthusiastic and casual when you're hanging out with a relatively new acquaintance as you would be when you're hanging out with an old friend." This seems like decent advice, but it's very difficult for me to actually put into action, and it also seems like it would make some people very uncomfortable.

But your take on it is interesting. I'm not 100% sure I can picture it, however. Could you maybe give some sort of example of this strategy in use?

Comment author: TheOtherDave 03 June 2013 02:30:11AM 4 points [-]

If "enthusiastic and casual" characterizes how you differentially treat your close friends, then sure, I'd say go for that. It doesn't for me, especially.

What I find differentially characterizes my relationships with close friends is that I can start a conversation with whatever has recently been on my mind, however unconventional an opening gambit, and we will mutually engage at a fairly high-bandwidth level. (And vice-versa)

E.g., I recently started a conversation (or, well, replied to "So what's up?") with "I've been thinking a lot lately about how to tell the difference between a lack of motivation that signals lack of genuine interest in doing something, versus a lack of motivation that doesn't, and one thing I'm noticing is that if I ask myself 'Self, are you looking forward to getting out of this slump and being enthused for that project again?' myself sometimes says 'yes!' and sometimes says 'meh.' and I wonder if that's correlated."

And, yes, I agree that it makes some people uncomfortable. I generally operate on the principle that my goal is not to make close friends out of everyone, nor even to make as many close friends as possible, merely to make close friends without wasting a lot of time. If 19 people respond "Oh look I must be going" and the 20th engages with me and we find each other mutually interesting, I generally consider that a win.

Comment author: jooyous 02 June 2013 08:22:08PM *  1 point [-]

It might help to precise-ify some of the language around what you mean by "more friends" and "more popular"? What kind of friends? What kind of popularity? Are there types of friends or popularity you don't want? Also, what kind of people can you usually hang out with one-on-one?

Comment author: letter7 02 June 2013 02:02:12PM 7 points [-]

I have been constantly thinking recently: Your voice impacts a lot in your presentation, and it's one of those things that people generally take for granted. And it's not just your speak pattern and filler words that I'm referring to, but also intonation, fluency and so on. I would maybe risk saying that it can be as important as your appearance, or even more. (If you stumble every five or ten words, you can't really convey your ideas, can you?)

In this vein, is there a viable alternative for someone who wants to improve his own voice? I already thought about a voice acting tutor, but I generally prefer ways in which I could improve without having to pay a tutor.

Comment author: Turgurth 04 June 2013 05:00:53PM 2 points [-]

Advice from the Less Wrong archives.

Comment author: TimS 02 June 2013 02:20:58PM 4 points [-]

I suggest practice in groups. Does Toastmasters charge money, and do they have any meetings near you?

Comment author: sediment 02 June 2013 03:20:31PM 2 points [-]

I'd like to put out a call for anecdata, if I may:

Lately I've been wondering how much of a causal connection there is between happiness/fulfillment and willpower (or, conversely, akrasia) levels. I feel like I'm not especially fulfilled or happy in my life right now, and I can't help but feel intuitively that this is one cause of the difficulty I seem to have in focusing, concentrating, and putting effort into what I want to. However, I've no idea whether there's actually anything in this.

So: I guess I wondered if anyone has any personal accounts of (medium- to long-term) mood affecting akrasia levels in their own lives? I invite you to share here. (Also welcomed: advice; discussion; pointers to actual, nonanecdotal, study-type data.)

Comment author: gothgirl420666 02 June 2013 05:17:27PM 3 points [-]

This is definitely the case according to my experiences and pretty much every self-help text I've ever read. You might want to check out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broaden-and-build

Comment author: TheOtherDave 02 June 2013 04:13:34PM 2 points [-]

Well, I certainly find that the two are correlated... when my mood is low, I don't get much done compared to when my mood is elevated.
Whether that's because getting things done influences my mood (and something else influences my productivity), or whether my mood influences my productivity (and something else influences my mood), or whether neither is true (and something else influences both), or various combinations, is harder to tease out.
My impression is that all three are true at different times.

Comment author: Vladimir_Golovin 02 June 2013 07:36:48AM *  8 points [-]

A lifehack idea: using oxytocin to counteract ugh fields:

  1. Ugh fields might be a form of an amygdala hijack.

  2. Oxytocin is known to dampen amygdala's 'fight, flight or freeze' responses.

  3. Oxytocin production is increased during bonding behaviors (e.g. parent-child, pets, snuggling / Karezza).

If 1, 2 and 3 are true, we could reduce the effect of an ugh field by petting a dog, hugging a baby or snuggling (but not orgasming) with a lover -- before confronting the task that induces the ugh field.

Disclaimer: I am not a brain scientist, so the terminology, logic and the entire idea may be wrong.

Comment author: [deleted] 11 June 2013 05:54:20PM *  4 points [-]

bonding behaviors (e.g. parent-child, pets, snuggling / Karezza)

Playing a team sport. Killing other people with your allies in combat. Being held in captivity and/or abused severely enough.

Comment author: Vladimir_Golovin 12 June 2013 11:14:18AM *  1 point [-]

Hmm, this is surprising. At first I thought you're providing examples of bonding behaviors that don't raise oxytocin levels, but decided to google anyway, and voila: Oxytocin and the Biopsychology of Performance in Team Sports, Gert-Jan Pepping and Erik J. Timmermans.

The second example, killing others with allies in combat, seems to be similar to team sports. However, the third one, being held in captivity / abused, seems to be different in kind. Do you have any sources on it?

Edit: I wonder if playing a team-based competitive game like Team Fortress 2 has any effect on oxytocin levels, in addition to dopamine effects that are typical for video games?

Comment author: MixedNuts 04 June 2013 09:25:06PM 2 points [-]

Do you have a source on oxytocin and sex with vs without orgasm? My understanding was that sex increased oxytocin secretion pretty much the same whether you orgasmed or not.

Comment author: Vladimir_Golovin 05 June 2013 06:15:48AM *  2 points [-]

Here's the closest one I could find: Specificity of the neuroendocrine response to orgasm during sexual arousal in men. Also, Wikipedia article on oxytocin says that "The relationship between oxytocin and human sexual response is unclear" and cites multiple studies on oxytocin and orgasm, but none of them seem to show any major effect.

So my impression is that oxytocin secretion per se is not heavily affected by orgasm (there is a short-term rise, but that's about it.) However, orgasm significantly affects two other hormones, dopamine and prolactin (also shown in the study I linked above). After an orgasm, dopamine drops and prolactin rises and keeps surging, supposedly for about two weeks (which seems established, but I don't have a source handy.)

Here's a study that shows that prolactin rises after an orgasm in men and women but sex without orgasm doesn't affect prolactin levels: Orgasm-induced prolactin secretion: feedback control of sexual drive?:

This series of studies clearly demonstrated that plasma prolactin (PRL) concentrations are substantially increased for over 1h following orgasm (masturbation and coitus conditions) in both men and women, but unchanged following sexual arousal without orgasm.

My current crude thinking is as follows:

  1. Orgasm leads to low dopamine and high prolactin (oxytocin release is negligible).
  2. Low dopamine means low motivation (is the Coolidge effect a hard-coded exception?).
  3. High prolactin means satiation.
  4. When confronting an ugh field, one needs oxytocin and dopamine, but not prolactin.
  5. Therefore it's better to avoid the post-orgasmic dopamine and prolactin changes.
Comment author: AspiringRationalist 03 June 2013 12:07:27AM 1 point [-]

I wonder if taking oxytocin supplements might work even better for this.

I'll definitely be trying it in one way or another, though.

Comment author: Vladimir_Golovin 03 June 2013 04:29:16AM *  2 points [-]

Alas, oxytocin supplements (there is a nasal spray, if I remember correctly) don't seem to work. When released naturally, it's released where it matters and in precise amounts, while the shotgun approach of the nasal spray makes it easy to miss the correct dosage and delivery location, which may cause various adverse effects.

Warning: my source on the above is a popular book, Cupid's Poisoned Arrow -- but, to their credit, they do cite their scientific sources. If Kindle had a way of copying / quoting text from its books, I'd look up the relevant paragraph for you.

Edit: The sources (had to type them manually):

  • M. Ansseau, et al., "Intranasal Oxytocin in Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder", 1987: 231-236.

  • G. Paolisso, et al., "Pharmacological Doses of Oxytocin Affect Plasma Hormone Levels Modulating Glucose Homeostasis in Normal Man", 1988: 10-16.

Edit 2: Here's the relevant part on the nasal spray (had to post it via a screenshot because Kindle does not allow copy/pasting text): http://imgur.com/kyysmbo

Comment author: wedrifid 03 June 2013 05:36:01AM 3 points [-]

Edit 2: Here's the relevant part on the nasal spray (had to post it via a screenshot because Kindle does not allow copy/pasting text): http://imgur.com/kyysmbo

For this reason (and in particular for the purpose of text-to-speech) I use calibre and the Kindle plugin to convert my kindle books to a less artificially restricted format.

Comment author: Vladimir_Golovin 04 June 2013 06:36:51AM *  1 point [-]

I've found a way to copy/paste from Kindle! Their software reader, at least the Windows version, allows copying:

You may wonder how researchers did most of the oxytocin experiments related to bonding. They piped it (or drugs that neutralized it) directly into rodents’ brains— onto spots no larger than peppercorns. However, even if you could pipe it into an unloving mate’s brain, you’d have to squirt it in every time you were together. Bonds are only created when oxytocin is consistently released in response to a particular person.

Next time you read about the wonders of oxytocin, keep in mind that the only feasible way to deliver it to anyone’s brain today is by way of a nasal spray— and that is not such a good idea. Such sprays have been used for a long time to induce milk letdown, but the oxytocin ends up all over the brain and circulating in the blood.

In contrast , your body delivers neurochemicals in just the right amount, precisely to the places they are needed, for as long as they are needed, and then quickly disposes of them. A shotgun approach can cause unintended consequences and alter the brain itself. A rise in oxytocin in a minuscule part of a mother rat’s brain causes her to guard her young fiercely. The same rise one-tenth of an inch away makes her passive. 277 Manipulating humans with oxytocin is also dodgy. When scientists tried to relieve symptoms of obsessive-compulsive disorder long-term, using oxytocin nasal spray, it caused severe memory disturbances, psychotic symptoms, and marked changes in blood sodium levels. 278 In another experiment it brought on high blood sugar (diabetes). 279

At present researchers only use oxytocin nasal sprays for short-term experiments— to learn the kinds of behaviors it influences. In this way it became evident that oxytocin increases trust— by calming the amygdala. 280 Spraying your brain is a fine tactic if you want to trust everyone, including Wall Street bankers, used car salesmen, and politicians. For example, in one experiment, those who took the placebo did not reinvest

Comment author: maia 02 June 2013 12:42:52PM 3 points [-]

Anyone have a good idea of where to park an "emergency fund" type account, and especially resources that talk about this? Most of my money is sitting in a checking account right now, which I have realized is not so good, but I want to keep most of it liquid (and the remainder might not be enough to start an index fund account with Vanguard).

Comment author: elharo 04 June 2013 09:29:26AM *  1 point [-]

Eric Tyson's Personal Finances for Dummies discusses this. He recommends putting your emergency fund into a tax-free money market with check writing privileges. I keep about 2-3% of my liquid assets in such an account, and maybe another 2% in checking and savings accounts at regular banks (one online, plus two local banks in locations where I live and work.) However the percentages aren't as important as the absolute numbers. You need a local account (or a fire-resistant safe that's rated for at least 60 minutes against tools and torch) for when you need a lot of cash right away, and enough cash across your cash accounts for maybe six months of living expenses.

Lines of credit can be useful, but banks do have an annoying habit of cancelling them at the worst possible times; e.g. when the whole economy is imploding as it did in 2008 and clients aren't paying their bills either.

Comment author: ThrustVectoring 02 June 2013 06:26:00PM *  9 points [-]

You only need an emergency fund if you do not have access to credit at reasonable terms. Investments you don't touch outside of emergencies coupled with open lines of credit should outperform excessive "emergency" savings. After all, lines of credit are typically free when you don't use or need them, while not getting the best rate of return on your savings isn't.

EDIT: I was reminded of a relevant saying: If you’ve never missed a flight, you’re spending too much time in airports.. Similarly, if you never have to borrow money for emergencies, your investments are too liquid.

Comment author: syllogism 04 June 2013 02:57:39PM 1 point [-]

I've been doing this wrong, and this advice will likely save me a few thousand dollars. Thanks.

Comment author: [deleted] 04 June 2013 11:01:44AM 1 point [-]

I have a partly irrational aversion to owing money, which I maybe should edit out of myself.

Comment author: Lumifer 03 June 2013 08:05:13PM 1 point [-]

if you never have to borrow money for emergencies, your investments are too liquid

That assumes there is price for liquidity which you are paying. I am not sure this is the case for most normal people (as opposed to, say, those who invest into private equity) now because other than real estate most other available investments are quite liquid.

Essentially, most of people's investments are bank accounts and market securities (again, real estate is the big exception). Liquidity shouldn't be an issue here.

Comment author: ThrustVectoring 04 June 2013 01:52:28AM 2 points [-]

For recent college graduates, their best investment opportunity is early repayment of their student loans. It's essentially guaranteed 4-5% return (whatever their loan rate happens to be). Note that this "investment" is completely illiquid.

Comment author: Lumifer 04 June 2013 08:01:11PM 1 point [-]

For recent college graduates, their best investment opportunity is early repayment of their student loans.

That's often but not necessarily true, especially on a post-tax basis (and especially if your alternative is putting money into tax-advantaged vehicle like 401(k) or IRA).

Comment author: TheOtherDave 02 June 2013 06:44:48PM 7 points [-]

You only need an emergency fund if you do not have access to credit at reasonable terms.

Surely the relevant question is whether I'm likely to not have access to credit at reasonable terms during an emergency, no?

Comment author: ThrustVectoring 03 June 2013 01:33:11AM 1 point [-]

I don't really see many emergencies that can be handled by cash but not by a loan for cash. If you're solvent and people want dollars later, then they will lend you money. If you're not solvent, then whether your immediate liquidity is in credit or cash doesn't make a big difference since you're still not solvent. If nobody wants dollars later (say, asteroid), then it's unlikely that having dollars now is going to fix any emergencies.

Comment author: Lumifer 03 June 2013 07:59:27PM 3 points [-]

If you're solvent and people want dollars later, then they will lend you money.

I don't find that obvious. There is a whole host of issues here, starting with time constraints (e.g. you need money within 24 hours and you can get a loan in five business days) and ending with information asymmetry issues of which lenders are acutely cognizant ("you say you're solvent, but can you prove it?").

If your "access to credit" is a couple of credit cards, yeah, you can get cash fast enough but the terms are rarely what I'd call "reasonable". If you'd actually need a new loan or a line of credit... I don't think I would want to rely on that in an emergency.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 June 2013 07:49:26PM 2 points [-]

This is a really good point that I can't believe I never thought of before.

Comment author: Thomas 02 June 2013 07:55:58AM 3 points [-]

It is the Capitalism Day today. As every first Sunday in June.

I wish you all a nice profit!

Comment author: Daniel_Burfoot 02 June 2013 01:50:44PM 2 points [-]

I wish you all a nice profit!

Thanks, you too!

Comment author: Thomas 02 June 2013 07:29:33AM *  3 points [-]

I've started a blog, yesterday.

http://protokol2020.wordpress.com

Comment author: ZankerH 02 June 2013 02:31:15PM *  3 points [-]

I'm interested. If you plan on posting semi-regularly or irregularly, please consider adding an RSS feed. It's the only way to follow sites that don't have a regular update schedule.

Comment author: tut 02 June 2013 12:29:39PM 1 point [-]

Please add it to the list of blogs by LWers in the wiki.

Comment author: Thomas 02 June 2013 12:50:07PM 1 point [-]

Thank you, I did.

Comment author: sanddbox 02 June 2013 04:26:00AM 3 points [-]

Has anyone on LW compiled a list of books/subjects to read/learn that basically gives brings you through all the ideas discussed on LW?

The sequences are the obvious answer, but it's nice to go into subjects a little more in-depth, plus the sequences are somewhat frustrating to navigate (every article in the sequences has links to plenty of other articles, so it's hard to attack the sequences in linear fashion).

Comment author: CronoDAS 02 June 2013 06:15:05AM *  6 points [-]

The most linear way to read Eliezer's Sequences is in chronological order by date of original posting, although it might not be the best way.

Comment author: wedrifid 02 June 2013 06:21:57AM 10 points [-]

The most linear way to read Eliezer's Sequences is in chronological order by date of original posting, although it might not be the best way.

Mind you it will be a good approximation of the best way. His posting order was dominated by needing to explain requisite knowledge before explaining later concepts. Perhaps the most obvious optimisation when it comes to reading is just skipping the parts that aren't interesting.

Comment author: sanddbox 02 June 2013 10:29:15PM 1 point [-]

Definitely - there's a lot of concepts that seem rather obvious to me, while others take me a lot longer to wrap my head around, so I've been skipping the ones that are really obvious to me.

Comment author: [deleted] 02 June 2013 06:55:02AM 1 point [-]

this might resemble the kind of list you were looking for:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/2un/references_resources_for_lesswrong/