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Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 21, chapters 91 & 92

4 Post author: NancyLebovitz 04 July 2013 11:49AM

This is a new thread to discuss Eliezer Yudkowsky’s Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality and anything related to it. This thread is intended for discussing chapters 91 & 92 . The previous thread has passed 500 comments. 

There is now a site dedicated to the story at hpmor.com, which is now the place to go to find the authors notes and all sorts of other goodies. AdeleneDawner has kept an archive of Author’s Notes. (This goes up to the notes for chapter 76, and is now not updating. The authors notes from chapter 77 onwards are on hpmor.com.) 

The first 5 discussion threads are on the main page under the harry_potter tag.  Threads 6 and on (including this one) are in the discussion section using its separate tag system.  Also: 1234567891011121314151617,18,19,20.

Spoiler Warning: this thread is full of spoilers. With few exceptions, spoilers for MOR and canon are fair game to post, without warning or rot13. More specifically:

You do not need to rot13 anything about HP:MoR or the original Harry Potter series unless you are posting insider information from Eliezer Yudkowsky which is not supposed to be publicly available (which includes public statements by Eliezer that have been retracted).

If there is evidence for X in MOR and/or canon then it’s fine to post about X without rot13, even if you also have heard privately from Eliezer that X is true. But you should not post that “Eliezer said X is true” unless you use rot13.

Comments (366)

Comment author: TobyBartels 07 July 2013 01:56:03AM 1 point [-]

ch 93

Eliezer, you made me cry.

Comment author: alex_zag_al 06 July 2013 08:13:18PM 6 points [-]

"I am smarter than you. I think faster than you. I am more experienced than you. But the gap between the two of us is not the same as the gap between us and them. If you can miss something, then so can I."

Did somebody just get marked as an equal here is that it?

Comment author: TobyBartels 07 July 2013 01:54:46AM 1 point [-]

Not yet, but the gap is small.

Comment author: Dev_Null 06 July 2013 05:56:51AM *  4 points [-]

I have to write it somewhere - because what is the point of a belief that does not allow you to make predictions that you are willing to stand by - and I guess this is the place. I believe that Hermione is not dead (duh!), and planned this all for the purposes of getting Harry out of his debt to Malfoy and/or preventing herself from being used as a weapon against Harry. She used or was discovered by Fred and George who were subsequently memory charmed by Dumbledore, who has spent entirely too much time off-camera of late.

Edit: I'll add that - on the odd chance I'm right, and this ends up sounding like bragging - I don't think that makes me particularly clever; I think it speaks to skillful but subtle hinting on the part of the author.

Comment author: TobyBartels 07 July 2013 01:54:16AM 3 points [-]

Upvoted for putting your prediction out there like this, even though I very much disagree (for the reason that Qiaochu said, for example).

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 06 July 2013 07:28:22PM *  5 points [-]

what is the point of a belief that does not allow you to make predictions that you are willing to stand by

The route from mental phenomena to actions does not have to pass through explicitly modeling and making predictions about the world. You can just have beliefs that function as simple heuristics for making actions without any modeling or prediction at all.

and planned this all

I find this highly unlikely. Hermione should have some concept by now of how destabilizing an effect her apparent death would have on Harry. I don't think she'd have the heart to knowingly deceive him like this.

Comment author: Dev_Null 08 July 2013 08:11:59AM 0 points [-]

I'll admit that's the problem I have the most trouble with, but after the debacle in the Library she may have felt like he didn't care, and / or be steeling herself to prove that she can be as calculating and strong as Harry.

On the other hand, it may all just be wishful thinking on my part. But it does explain:

1) the beginning of the scene in the Library (with Hermione desperately searching for a way out of the debt) 2) Harry's casual mention of the fact that he's not sure whether it will absolve him of the debt or not 3) Weasley brain wipes 4) Dumbledore's persistent absences

Plus it would firmly establish Hermione as Harry's equal, putting the boot in on various speculations about HPMOR being sexist in what I can only imagine would be an extremely satisfying fashion, from Eliezer 's pov.

Comment author: Velorien 09 July 2013 12:18:04PM 2 points [-]

Plus it would firmly establish Hermione as Harry's equal, putting the boot in on various speculations about HPMOR being sexist in what I can only imagine would be an extremely satisfying fashion, from Eliezer 's pov.

Except that the plot was already established when Eliezer started writing, long before said sexism speculations developed. He's been very emphatic about that. So while this would be a bonus, it can't factor into predictions of the plot.

Comment author: drethelin 06 July 2013 02:36:20AM *  1 point [-]

spoilers for 93

Strongly STRONGLY approve of the letter from dad, but kind of disappointed about how much talk about house points there was. Who the hell cares? Why didn't anyone interrupt to talk about what had actually just happened or ask the Weasleys about facing the troll or anything?

Hermione's body being gone: Congruent with some form of resurrection, congruent with transfiguration being used by Harry to preserver her, congruent with other possible preservation options, also possible that Quirrel or someone else wants to use the body for horrible rituals.

Comment author: Alejandro1 06 July 2013 02:49:52AM *  5 points [-]

You should write Chapter 93 at the beginning of your comment, as a spoiler warning of those who didn't read it yet.

Are the rules to create a new thread for each new update, to avoid this problem?

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 06 July 2013 02:49:18AM *  10 points [-]

The house points are symbolic. There are two worlds, the world of ordinary Hogwarts activity and the world where crazy shit happens, usually because of Harry somehow, and some kind of relationship between these worlds needs to be established. Especially because actually there's only one world and bad things happen when students, especially Gryffindors, are too afraid of repercussions from the first world to behave sensibly in the second.

Comment author: Intrism 06 July 2013 02:42:04AM 11 points [-]

The House Points are more of a way to formalize Minerva eating crow for all the students that broke the rules and acted when the situation required it. And, of course, most of the points talk was really about extending them to more students, which was extremely necessary for Harry. The Neville talk was probably the least justified, but there is a shard of importance in that Harry had to forgive and defend Neville during it.

Comment author: solipsist 06 July 2013 01:48:19AM 9 points [-]

Possible legilimency episode during Quirrell's tirade to McGonagall:

"You." Professor Quirrell spun, and she found herself gazing directly into eyes of icy blue.

...

A wordless image crossed her mind of a patch of glass on a steel ball.

This could be Quirrell finding out about Harry's partial transfiguration. More likely, it is nothing.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 26 August 2013 03:52:32PM 0 points [-]

He already had a clue in the form of the hole Harry had transfigured in the wall of the Azkaban.

Comment author: Spurlock 07 July 2013 02:14:08AM 3 points [-]

I like this theory. But it's worth noting that Moody claimed that Voldemort could legilimens without making eye contact. EY seems pretty big on Conservation of Detail, so there's a good chance that this will turn out to be important. Of course, Conservation of Detail also weighs in favor of this eye-locking episode being important, so I suppose it could go either way.

Or both: perhaps sightless legilimency is handicap-inducing like wandless magic, so eye contact might be required to read a witch as powerful as Minerva.

Comment author: Ritalin 05 July 2013 08:15:17PM *  0 points [-]
Comment author: Velorien 06 July 2013 01:21:23PM *  0 points [-]

You may want to correct the typo on "though" - on a first reading it seems like you're criticising Eliezer's grammar and then going on to make a separate comment.

Comment author: Zoe 05 July 2013 06:09:19PM *  1 point [-]

Does anyone else find it implausible that Quirrell would both act upon the latest prophecy moments after hearing it and act as though he interpreted it in the most literal sense possible? To suppose that he is acting out of concern when speaking to McGonagall is to accept that this is what he does.

Yet, it has been made explicit in HPMoR that prophecies are riddles addressed to the one who hears it. Quirrell knows this. I thus find it unlikely that he would jump on the first ''obvious'' literal interpretation rather than ponder the riddle.

Not to mention that if Quirrell did embrace the line about the world ending in the most explosive, catastrophic and literal sense possible, and that it alarmed him, it would be foolish of him to say nothing of the prophecy. And Quirrell--we know that at least--is not foolish.

So, if the prophecy about the end of the world is a riddle, what could be its answer?

My hypotheses so far: 1. Harry tries to revive Hermione, and the knowledge he acquires in order to do so (whether or not he succeeds) lets him solve the riddle of what magic is/how it is ruled. He chooses to make that knowledge public, thus changing the face of the magical world to those who live it it. (50% estimate) 2. Harry will succeed in actually cheating death, and either as a result or through the means he employs to do it, this will affect the source of magic in a way that will change some of its features. (40% estimate) 3. Harry does not succeed in reviving Hermione, and this somehow ends up in the world catching on fire. (5% estimate). 4. Harry is not the one whom the prophecy refers to. It could be Snape, for example. (2% estimate).

Comment author: [deleted] 05 July 2013 06:52:02PM 1 point [-]

So, if the prophecy about the end of the world is a riddle, what could be its answer?

The only outcome I've found any hints for so far is the intelligence amplification hypothesis. The last time Harry brainstormed ways to achieve ultimate power, mind magic was first on the list. And he was recently heard to say 'I will change and be less stupid'. IA breaks the plot, though, and leaves the author with a character he can't write, so I'm not hugely confident of it.

Comment author: Ritalin 05 July 2013 08:12:11PM 0 points [-]

People seem to have had an easy enough time writing a convincing CelestiAI.

Comment author: [deleted] 05 July 2013 08:47:55PM 2 points [-]

Clarification/nitpick: I'm sure Eliezer could create a character, tell us that it was smarter than him, and have most of us accept that, or at least lull us to suspending our disbelief. This isn't quite the same thing as writing a character who's smarter than him.

Comment author: Ritalin 05 July 2013 09:05:16PM 0 points [-]

I suspect that at least Quirrell is smarter than him, when it comes to pure mental horsepower.

Comment author: [deleted] 05 July 2013 10:28:15PM 7 points [-]

Okay, I see I've been using words in an idiosyncratic way, so I'll just dump out my thoughts on the subject, most of which came from Eliezer's author notes:

To write a character successfully, you need to show that character acting in ways in which it would be plausible for them to act. To write a character who's smarter than you - who would plausibly choose courses of action and speak lines of dialog that wouldn't occur to you - you need to cheat. Smarter-than-Author-Intelligences can think faster and remember more, but they can't be better than you at seeing the connections between the facts at their command. If they're Emmett Brown, they can invent amazing technologies, but the scientific explanations for them will be gibberish. If they're Sherlock Holmes, they reach startling and true conclusions on the strength of bad evidence.

The movie Gattaca is full of artificially-selected superbeings who never speak a single witty line. That's the difference between a character who's supposed to be smart and a character who's successfully written that way, between telling and showing. Eliezer may have intended for Quirrell to be smarter than him in some sense, but he hasn't been written that way, because he couldn't have been.

Unless all you meant by 'horsepower' was thinking speed, in which case you might be right. Dunno.

Comment author: Ritalin 06 July 2013 01:43:09AM 1 point [-]

I did mean thinking speed. Note the exchange where Harry blames Quirrell for not thinking of stuff in time, and Quirrell retorts that even smart people miss stuff and need time to reach their conclusions. An author has usually much more time than the characters and the benefit of controlling the world entirely, so he can make the characters more intelligent than him in that they're able to think faster and better under pressure, and that they're able to legitimately draw the right conclusions from the evidence that's been left available to them.

Comment author: [deleted] 06 July 2013 01:57:55AM 1 point [-]

Then we don't disagree on anything except word choice. Hooray! Upvotes all around.

Comment author: TobyBartels 07 July 2013 01:50:03AM 3 points [-]

So that's how you get high karma, is it?

Comment author: Velorien 05 July 2013 03:19:02PM 16 points [-]

Chapter 79:

"The grim!" Professor Trelawney said in a quavering voice, as she peered into George Weasley's teacup. "The grim! It is a sign of death! One whom you know, George - someone you know is to die! And soon - yes, it shall be quite soon, I think - unless of course it is later -"

It would have been a good deal scarier, thought Fred and George, if she hadn't said the same thing to every single other student in their Divination class.

I'm having to update my probability that HPMOR!Trelawney is actually good at her job.

Comment author: William_Quixote 05 July 2013 04:21:12PM *  10 points [-]

If everyone in the class knows Hermione (which is likely for a loose definition of 'knows' since everyone has probably heard of her either through SPHEW or as General Sunshine, as her being called up at lunch to receive an award) then telling that to everyone in the class may not include even a single miss. Which makes Professor Trelawney very accurate indeed.

Comment author: Intrism 05 July 2013 03:23:42PM *  10 points [-]

My estimate of Trelawney in Methods has, for quite some time, been that she may or may not be good at formal Divination, but that she is a terrible teacher and an excellent seer, and that Dumbledore keeps her around primarily for the latter reason.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 05 July 2013 03:23:07PM 3 points [-]

Not really. if she says the same thing each time it shouldn't be surprising that a rare hit occurs. It seems heavily implied that Dumbledore keeps her around (both in canon and in HPMOR) because she occasionally emits a genuine prophecy.

Comment author: gwern 05 July 2013 03:48:51PM 8 points [-]

Not really. if she says the same thing each time it shouldn't be surprising that a rare hit occurs.

Ah, but consider how rarely students die at Hogwarts: we're at a 50-year gap between Myrtle and Hermione. If Trelawney told every student this year that they were going to die, but not the other years, then actually she's remarkably accurate.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 05 July 2013 03:53:19PM 4 points [-]

Sure, do we have any reason to think she's only done it this year?

Comment author: tim 05 July 2013 04:58:20PM *  10 points [-]

Possibly. Since Fred and George thought it would have been a good deal scarier "if she hadn't said the same thing to every single other student in their Divination class" rather than "if she hadn't said the same thing every year/week/day," its weakly implied that this is the first time she's make this prediction.

edit: although "every single other student in their Divination class" is somewhat ambiguous and could mean that over the course of the semester she has made this prediction for everyone at different times.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 26 August 2013 03:54:16PM 0 points [-]

In canon, at least, she did that sort of thing every year. That only means so much here, of course.

Comment author: Velorien 05 July 2013 07:40:15PM 2 points [-]

edit: although "every single other student in their Divination class" is somewhat ambiguous and could mean that over the course of the semester she has made this prediction for everyone at different times.

Then again, after SPHEW, everyone in the school "knows" Hermione.

Comment author: cousin_it 05 July 2013 03:09:41PM *  13 points [-]

In light of Eliezer's recent trolling, I guess it's official that all foreshadowings in the fic, even the ones that seemed like jokes, are going to come true. Let's see! The date is April 1992, we're at the end of the second act:

"Even if you had kissed him first, you know what that would make you? The sad little lovestruck girl who dies at the end of Act Two." (Ch.46)

Harry is going to expose Quirrell in May:

"I can well foresee that I am fated to sit in the Headmaster's office and hear some hilarious tale about Professor Quirrell in which you and you alone play a starring role, after which there will be no choice but to fire him." (...) "What do I get if I can make it happen on the last day of the school year?" (Ch.17)

Harry is a copy of Monroe:

"And I'm secretly sixty-five years old." - "You don't look half that" (Ch.38)

"Born 1927, entered Hogwarts in 1938, sorted into Slytherin, graduated 1945." (Ch.84)

And Harry is going to marry a whole lot of people.

Comment author: alex_zag_al 06 July 2013 07:03:06PM 3 points [-]

Sixty-five years old is also consistent with being Tom Riddle, who was born December 1926. (Remember, that quote is from September, a few months before Tom RIddle's 66th birthday.)

(birth year and month from harry potter wiki)

Comment author: JoshuaZ 05 July 2013 03:20:59PM 1 point [-]

What "trolling" are you referring to?

Comment author: cousin_it 05 July 2013 03:31:16PM *  10 points [-]

Killing Hermione with a mountain troll and causing strong fan reactions, of course :-) Note that the troll was introduced in Ch.16, and Quirrell made a callback to that scene when he advised Hermione to run away in Ch.84.

Comment author: Tripitaka 05 July 2013 12:12:06PM *  1 point [-]

Some thoughts on "Hermiones brain will be transfigured and kept frozen by Harry":

We know from Harrys first transfiguration lesson that transfigured living things undergo changes with time, which will kill said things. Harry knows this, and is thus likely to thing of deep-freezing the Hermione-diamond. Only he also plans to retransfigurate his fathers rock, and we know that one sustained transfiguration is a serious drain on his magic. Add to that the magical drain from having to cool the H-diamond and its thermal buffer, I think it unlikely that he did something of that sorts.

One way to circumvent the drain of the transfigured H-diamond would be to make it microscopically small, but he still would have to touch it regularly; given that its temperature should be in the cryogenic range, only touches with his wand would be feasible.

The only way I can think of to circumvent these problems would be to have others partake in the task, but that brings with it other problems.

Any thoughts which theories Harry tested with

"Is that a usual tactic, by the way?" Harry said, voice still odd. "Carrying something large Transfigured into something small to use as a weapon? Or is that a usual exercise for Transfiguration practice?"

Comment author: mare-of-night 05 July 2013 04:18:57PM 10 points [-]

Alternately, he might want people to believe he has transfigured his father's rock again, but not be actually planning to keep it transfigured, because he wants to carry the Hermione diamond and let people think it is the rock.

Comment author: Tripitaka 05 July 2013 06:35:31PM 0 points [-]

Any thoughts on the changing/cooling issue? That seems to really get brushed off. Is a perfect diamond supposed to be absolutely stable at room temperature?

Comment author: Plasmon 05 July 2013 06:43:14PM 3 points [-]

It isn't

Contrary to the popular belief that "diamonds are forever", they are in fact thermodynamically unstable under normal conditions and transform into graphite.[13] However, due to a high activation energy barrier, the transition into graphite is so extremely slow at room temperature as to be unnoticeable.

Comment author: Decius 06 July 2013 03:06:38AM 0 points [-]

What is the most stable thing at room temperature, with magical assistance?

Comment author: Velorien 06 July 2013 01:23:46PM 0 points [-]

Arguably a troll - it's constantly transfiguring itself back into the same form.

Comment author: TobyBartels 07 July 2013 01:42:24AM 1 point [-]

I don't think that a troll's transfiguration is supposed be stable at that level of detail.

Comment author: Decius 06 July 2013 10:17:29PM 2 points [-]

So transfigure Hermione's brain into a troll until you figure out how to save her.

Twitch.

Comment author: wedrifid 05 July 2013 01:45:15PM 8 points [-]

Only he also plans to retransfigurate his fathers rock, and we know that one sustained transfiguration is a serious drain on his magic.

I rather suspect he would be willing to sacrifice that goal (whim) if it seemed like it would help Hermione.

Comment author: DanArmak 05 July 2013 12:18:58PM 11 points [-]

Any thoughts which theories Harry tested with

"Is that a usual tactic, by the way?" Harry said, voice still odd. "Carrying something large Transfigured into something small to use as a weapon? Or is that a usual exercise for Transfiguration practice?"

He tested whether Dumbledore anticipated his use of the rock when he told him to carry it around. He's looking for explanations of all the early behavior where Dumbledore pretended to be mad, since he now believes that while Dumbledore may have wrong and even "mad" beliefs, he only does things like burning chickens to mess with people.

Comment author: JohnSidles 05 July 2013 11:50:32AM *  -1 points [-]

Conspicuously absent from the canon, and from Methods of Rationality (so far) --- and absent entirely from the Hogwarts curriculum --- are two fundamental elements of rational cognition:

  • mathematics, and
  • artificial intelligences (AIs)

Therefore

Postulate 1 "Magic" is the name that witches, wizards, and muggles alike give to the practice of manipulating physical reality by negotiation with agents that are (artificial? primordial? evolved? accidentally created?) intelligences.

Postulate 2 "Magical Spells" is the name that witches, wizards, and muggles alike give to an evolving set of protocols for negotiating with an existing community of (mysterious) intelligences. These protocols are designed to minimize the risks and harms associated to the practice of magic, by concealing the physical origins of magic.

Postulate 3 The chief organizing objective of the Hogwarts curriculum is to preserve the social fictions that are associated to Postulates 1 and 2.

Postulate 4 Harry Potter is regarded as dangerous because he seeks to evade the restrictions associated to Postulates 1, 2, and 3, by inquiring into the true nature of magic and its actions.

Literary Remark Harry Potter would do well to reflect upon the words and fate of Captain Ahab:

"All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event — in the living act, the undoubted deed — there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the white whale agent, or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon him. Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that, then could I do the other; since there is ever a sort of fair play herein, jealousy presiding over all creations. Ohg abg zl znfgre, zna, vf rira gung snve cynl. Jub'f bire zr? Gehgu ungu ab pbasvarf."

Conclusion Harry Potter's quest to restore Hermione Granger may be leading him and the Hogwarts crew to a similarly disastrous fate as Ahab and the Pequod crew.

Comment author: elharo 05 July 2013 12:29:24PM *  3 points [-]
  1. Both canon and HPMoR have arithmancy. In HPMoR, "Harry and Professor McGonagall had bought his textbooks from Flourish and Blotts just under the deadline. With only a slight explosion when Harry had made a beeline for the keyword 'Arithmancy' and discovered that the seventh-year textbooks invoked nothing more mathematically advanced than trigonometry." And Harry really shouldn't have exploded. Many real world Muggle schools don't get as far as trigonometry by the end of high school, and they don't have to spend any time on charms or transfiguration.

  2. Ryvmvre unf fgngrq gung guvf vf abg na NV fgbel.

Comment author: JohnSidles 05 July 2013 12:56:28PM 1 point [-]

For a professional-grade comment on "muggle math" versus "Hogwarts math", see Michael Spivak's Physics for Mathematicians: Mechanics I.

To express this point another way ... how likely is it, that Harry's final understanding of magic will be non-mathematical? What grade of mathematical abstraction capabilities will Harry need to acquire?

Comment author: tgb 05 July 2013 09:02:25PM *  2 points [-]

I can't find the particular proofs of Noether theorems that your link refers to. Can you help me find them? I see no instances of the word "muggle" in Spivak's paper - in fact no index at all. Is there a different version of it? Please help, as I would greatly appreciate reading this!

Edit: I see now that the comment was referring to a book by Spivak, and that the linked PDF is only on 'elementary mechanics.'

Comment author: gjm 05 July 2013 11:40:40PM 1 point [-]

Amazon UK's "look inside" feature has it. I haven't checked Amazon US. Search for "Muggles"; first result (page 576) is the one.

Comment author: JohnSidles 05 July 2013 11:20:09PM *  2 points [-]

Edit 1: Kudos to "gjm" (see above) for pointing to Spivak's page on Amazon!

Edit 2: Spivak's Hogwarts proof implicitly uses a fundamental theorem in differential geometry that is called Cartan's Magic Formula ... this oblique magical reference is Spivak's joke ... as with many magical formulas, the origins of Cartan's formula are obscure.

Regrettably, tgb, even the redoubtable Google Books does not provide page-images for Spivak's Physics for Mathematicians: Mechanics I. The best advice I can give is to seek this book within a university library system.

Comment author: DanArmak 05 July 2013 12:22:47PM 8 points [-]

Abominable Conclusion 1: the AIs that first negotiated with humanity, thousands of years ago, to levitate objects on command, had insisted that humans speak the protocol words... Wingardium Leviosa.

Comment author: William_Quixote 05 July 2013 01:15:49PM *  11 points [-]

AI-1: And so we have decided to grant the humans great powers

AI-2: but when we bestow our awesome power upon the puny humans they may become arrogant and forget that they are small and ridiculous

AI-1: we've thought of that, and have a solution...

Wingardium Leviosa!

Comment author: DanArmak 05 July 2013 10:39:13PM 1 point [-]

Except that said humans won't develop the language where those not-words sound kind-of-sensible for a few more thousand years. And even then, most of the people in the world wouldn't get the joke. (Do French wizards cast French spells? What about the Chinese?)

Comment author: monsterzero 06 July 2013 03:11:07AM 2 points [-]

Do French wizards cast French spells? What about the Chinese?

Probably. Quirrell teaches at least one spell which is clearly neither of English nor Latin origin.

Comment author: DanArmak 06 July 2013 10:14:50AM 2 points [-]

Excellent point, I'd forgotten about that. Ma-ha-su.

Since Eliezer does nothing accidentally, this is very strong evidence that wizards invent spells with words related to the language they speak, and that spells then have a high turnover rate that doesn't let them survive longer than their languages.

Comment author: JohnSidles 05 July 2013 12:59:28PM *  1 point [-]

LOL --- perhaps a chief objective of the Ministry of Magic is to conceive and require obfuscating interfaces to magic! That would explain a lot!

Parallels to real-world high-school and/or undergraduate mathematical education ... are left as an exercise. :)

Comment author: Intrism 05 July 2013 04:55:29AM *  11 points [-]

The "soulsplosion," in Hermione's death, was extremely hard to miss. But it was notably absent in a previous wizarding death we supposedly witnessed: Harry's mother's death. This has provided some unexpected confirmatory evidence for an old pet theory of mine: that Harry's memory of his parents' death was faked. I can only assume someone else brought a similar theory up around here before, so I won't go into too much detail.

If it were a false memory, though, why would the soulsplosion be missing? Well, we get an answer for that in Chapter 86: some things can't be adequately faked in false memories. If whoever created the false memory had included a false wizard's death, Harry might have wondered what exactly the strange light show was; if he had researched it, he might have realized that what he remembered was faked. But Harry had never seen a wizard die before; an omitted soulsplosion would therefore arouse no suspicions, whereas a faked one might. Hence there was none.

Comment author: knb 05 July 2013 05:01:05AM *  6 points [-]

There is no reason to believe the burst of magical energy happens in every magical death. It could be something that only happens under particular circumstances, or for particular types of wizards/witches. For example, the killing curse might kill people too quickly for them to understand that they are dying.

Another possibility is that it can only be perceived under certain circumstances.

Comment author: DanArmak 05 July 2013 12:23:59PM 6 points [-]

Or that it's detected via one's magical sense, and baby-Harry didn't have it properly developed yet.

Comment author: Intrism 05 July 2013 01:13:12PM 1 point [-]

That hypothesis is one that I considered. However, Harry can see every other magical effect just fine; he has no problem with the Avada Kedavra or any of Voldemort's special effects. Of course, if the memory is real, it must have been stored magically, and "enough magic to record magical memories but not enough to see the special effects" sounds like a very specific level of magic. The AK rebound, if it actually happened, may also indicate that Harry had enough magic for his resonance with Quirrell.

Comment author: DanArmak 05 July 2013 10:40:35PM *  3 points [-]

However, Harry can see every other magical effect just fine; he has no problem with the Avada Kedavra or any of Voldemort's special effects.

He doesn't see anything a Muggle wouldn't see. There's no reason to think the green light part of Avada Kedavra is magical.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 10 July 2013 03:07:52PM 1 point [-]

In canon, it seems to be visible. to Muggles. The scene where Voldemort kills the Riddle House caretaker seems to imply that (although not fully since it turns out we are getting the scene from Harry's mental connection to Voldemort).

Comment author: fubarobfusco 05 July 2013 06:56:21AM 6 points [-]

For example, the killing curse might kill people too quickly for them to understand that they are dying.

Or the Killing Curse destroys the soul (as does the Dementor's Kiss), whereas bleeding to death merely releases it from the body.

A test: Are there any ghosts of people killed by Avada Kedavra? Ghosts are noted as being only echoes of the dead person — but if they are echoes formed by the release of an intact soul, then there would not be one for anyone killed in a way that consumes the soul, such as Avada Kedavra or the Dementor's Kiss.

(I can't think of any in canon. The four House Ghosts were all killed by mundane means, and Moaning Myrtle by a basilisk's stare.)

Comment author: Desrtopa 05 July 2013 01:49:42PM 1 point [-]

Or the Killing Curse destroys the soul (as does the Dementor's Kiss), whereas bleeding to death merely releases it from the body.

In the original HP canon, people killed by AK appeared to Harry near the end of the last book, when he ambiguously crosses over into the afterlife.

Comment author: Velorien 05 July 2013 02:11:25PM 7 points [-]

McGonagall tells Harry that the Killing Curse "strikes at the soul, severing it from the body".

Comment author: Desrtopa 05 July 2013 07:34:10PM 3 points [-]

On the other hand, Quirrell says that it will "instantly kill anything with a brain." I'd be careful about assigning too much evidence to McGonagall's pronouncement, since it's likely that she doesn't really have the information necessary to isolate that conclusion.

Comment author: Intrism 05 July 2013 02:17:07PM *  0 points [-]

Or the Killing Curse destroys the soul (as does the Dementor's Kiss), whereas bleeding to death merely releases it from the body.

McGonagall tells Harry that the Killing Curse "strikes at the soul, severing it from the body".

Well, looks like that objection is dealt with.

Comment author: kilobug 05 July 2013 09:43:39AM 3 points [-]

Do the temporary ghosts of resurrection stone and "priori incantatem" count for you ?

That could only work if "permanent" ghosts are really made from souls (Dumbledore hypothesis), but the temporary ghosts are made from memories (HJPEV hypothesis). While it's not impossible to have both mechanism, Occam's razor gives it a low prior, I would more suspect the same mechanism behind both.

Comment author: Intrism 05 July 2013 05:01:51AM *  0 points [-]

I might accept that if it weren't for the fact that I have plenty of other good reasons to suspect that particular memory. This piece of evidence, like any other, isn't conclusive. But it certainly helps. (Also, all of your qualifiers incur some complexity penalty, particularly "types of wizards.")

Comment author: Mestroyer 04 July 2013 11:23:23PM 3 points [-]

The only plausible reason whoever killed Hermione hasn't killed Harry too is because they want him to remain alive. They could have, because Hogwarts security is no great impediment to whoever did this, and Harry isn't a genius in his sleep. They would have, too. Anyone who hates Hermione would hate Harry, too. He was summoned to help during her confrontation with bullies. He used legal tricks to intervene when she was about to be "kissed." He's obviously the bigger threat, and whoever killed Hemione should have some fear of vengeance from him.

Unless it's Voldemort, who knows that Harry is a horcrux, as in canon, and knows that in killing Harry he would injure himself. Quirrel knows that he has a telepathic link with Harry. As Quirrel told McGonagall, he is a wizard "almost" on the level of Dumbledore and Voldemort. The Quirrelmort theory posits one less extremely powerful wizard. Hermione was killed by a troll. In canon, that is Quirrel's signature. Quirrel is voldemort in canon.

Am I missing anything?

Comment author: Ritalin 05 July 2013 11:22:51AM 0 points [-]

And then there's Snape... who knows what evil lurks into the hearts of men?

Comment author: Kawoomba 05 July 2013 11:25:43AM 0 points [-]

That's funny.

Comment author: pleeppleep 05 July 2013 04:51:09AM 7 points [-]

Quirrel in Methods has pretty much stated that he's trying to mold Harry into a dark lord. That requires Harry to be alive and is significantly more likely if he doesn't have Hermione's moral influence.

Comment author: moridinamael 04 July 2013 08:44:02PM 23 points [-]

Tom Riddle in canon was described as a classic charming psychopath, while the Defense Professor seems to be genuinely icy and blind to others' internal states. He even verbalizes this a few times, e.g. "I don't have the knack." So either HPMOR!Riddle was actually not charming but instead vastly more intelligent in a cold, calculating way, or the Monroe/Quirrell persona is supposed to be outwardly cold and obtuse while still secretly possessing insight, or this fragment of Riddle's soul has lost whatever insight or ability that formerly made him charming, or something I haven't thought of.

Comment author: ChristianKl 04 July 2013 11:41:04PM 2 points [-]

I know someone with Asbergers who manages to be very charming because he learnt social rules.

You don't need empathy to charm people.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 05 July 2013 08:53:34AM *  2 points [-]

You don't need empathy to charm people.

Yes. Psychopaths are a prime example.

Comment author: wedrifid 05 July 2013 01:57:13AM *  7 points [-]

I know someone with Asbergers who manages to be very charming because he learnt social rules.

Aspergers. (I've occasionally heard "Ass burgers" used as an insult. No 'b'!)

Comment author: fubarobfusco 05 July 2013 06:57:23AM *  0 points [-]
Comment author: elharo 04 July 2013 11:35:07PM 4 points [-]

Quirrell == Voldemort. This does not imply that Voldemort == Riddle. Dumbledore at least thinks that Voldemort was Tom Riddle, but consider the possibility that Dumbledore is wrong about this. Remember Voldemort really doesn't look very human at all, and could be almost anyone. Maybe Riddle was misdirection.

Comment author: bramflakes 04 July 2013 10:57:20PM 14 points [-]

Quirrel tells Harry that they share an ability to "become" whoever they pretend to be. We even see this when Quirrel pretends to be someone else to the Healer after the Azkaban breakout. It would be very odd if Quirrel were able to do this and not have any insight into how people's emotions feel like from the inside. I believe that Quirrel knows perfectly well how emotions work; the icy exterior is just a role he plays.

Comment author: Gurkenglas 12 July 2013 01:19:17PM 0 points [-]

I don't think that Quirrel would keep that part of his guise up once the fate of the very stars in heaven is on the table.

Comment author: Desrtopa 05 July 2013 05:58:18AM *  19 points [-]

I don't think Quirrell's model of emotions can be all that refined, since he seems to have repeatedly and legitimately mismodelled both Harry ("yes, I actually do care about people even if I don't relate to them, I don't want to be a Dark Lord,") and Hermione ("You know, a shadowy figure in a hooded cloak is really not the most trustworthy messenger.")

Comment author: Sheaman3773 26 August 2013 07:03:26PM *  2 points [-]

Obligatory protest that we don't know for certain Mr. Hat-and-Cloak is Quirrell.

The way I interpreted that, he thought that if he first showed up looking innocent and good, she would have suspected that the outside was a sham. But after she revealed that she really doesn't think that outsides are always deceptive, he changed his modeling.

Though that would still mean that he mismodeled her, yes.

My thoughts on the mismodelling* of Harry are much more speculative.

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 04 July 2013 08:00:56PM *  12 points [-]

Harry looked at his mechanical watch again, but it still wasn't time.

...

Time passed, and yet more time. From the outside you would've just seen a boy, sitting, staring at his wand with an abstracted gaze, looking at his watch every two minutes or so.

Why is Harry looking at his watch so frequently? And why was he so insistent on a particular deadline for people not bothering him? He seems to be paying an unusual amount of attention to the time, and that suggests Time Turner shenanigans, although I'm not sure what they are.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 06 July 2013 02:41:32AM 1 point [-]

Nice idea.

If Harry wanted to do something rash to get Hermione back, messing with the Time Turner would be considered "rash". Also, Harry did conveniently manage to get his time turner unsheathed.

Harry tries something with his time turner. Harry gets a note - "Don't." Harry writes on the note, "Give Hermione back, or kiss my ass - take your pick."

Comment author: lfghjkl 05 July 2013 12:25:50AM *  23 points [-]

He needs 6 hours of uninterrupted time with Hermione's body. His present self guards the door while his future self does whatever he plans on doing to prepare her body for long term preservation.

See this quote from chapter 91 set right after Harry exits the room where her body is stored:

When the door opened again, Harry seemed to have changed, as though that minute and a half had passed over the course of lifetimes.

That "lifetime" is more specifically 6 hours.

Comment author: Intrism 05 July 2013 01:00:50AM *  0 points [-]

"Lifetimes" could also be literal (though this is a bit dubious considering that it's from McGonagall's POV) - perhaps Harry managed to reanimate Hermione for multiple brief periods? Or, perhaps Harry experimented with animating, killing, or reanimating other, smaller creatures?

Comment author: lfghjkl 05 July 2013 01:24:28AM 1 point [-]

I highly doubt that he would mess around with her body more than necessary. He knows that he doesn't yet have the knowledge or power to resurrect her, and any experimenting will have to be done when there isn't a limited time-frame to stop her body from deteriorating further.

My current best guess as to what happened in that room is that Harry spent a good deal of time transfiguring her body into an element so stable, that the atoms won't move around "too much" in the days/weeks/months/years he would need before being able to resurrect her. He then transfigured a replacement body from some dirt lying around.

It's also possible that he just transfigured her brain into this element and just left the rest of her body as it is.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 05 July 2013 02:55:52AM 0 points [-]

Alternatively, he could have simply entered the room and watched the room for six hours, perhaps while random-walking. By doing so, he ensures that the only observer he needs to worry about himself, so that far-future Harry can plan a time travel trip in security.

Comment author: lfghjkl 05 July 2013 03:11:59AM *  4 points [-]

I highly doubt he would do that as well, given that there is no known method to travel further than 6 hours back in time. He would not base his entire "save Hermione" plan on a hope that he could somehow find a way around this constraint.

What he does at this very moment should exclude as few plans to save her as possible, and not preserving her brain would exclude almost all of them.

Alternatively, he could have simply entered the room and watched the room for six hours, perhaps while random-walking. By doing so, he ensures that the only observer he needs to worry about himself, so that far-future Harry can plan a time travel trip in security.

Also, given how time travel works in this story, the only thing he would achieve with this is making it impossible for future Harry to do any changes at all to Hermione's body in these 6 hours (since he can only "change" what he doesn't know).

Comment author: linkhyrule5 05 July 2013 05:48:13AM 0 points [-]

The former is granted; better to be sure. (Though any trick that can overcome information-theoretic death has a decent chance of allowing arbitrary time travel anyway.)

The latter, however, is easily dealt with: show up under the Invisibility Cloak, hit his past self with some variant of the Confundus Charm. Since he's watched the entire 6 hours, he can be certain this will be sufficient.

... except he can't, because someone else could've pulled the same trick. Nevermind; retracted.

Comment author: lfghjkl 05 July 2013 05:30:53PM *  2 points [-]

Though any trick that can overcome information-theoretic death has a decent chance of allowing arbitrary time travel anyway.

I do not see how that would follow at all, could you please explain?

The latter, however, is easily dealt with: show up under the Invisibility Cloak, hit his past self with some variant of the Confundus Charm.

Dumbledore has already told Harry that he tried a variant of this once and that it didn't work. "Time" didn't like that. See this quote from chapter 90:

I asked the Headmaster to go back and save Hermione and then fake everything, fake the dead body, edit everyone's memories, but Dumbledore said that he tried something like that once and it didn't work and he lost another friend instead.

This should at the very least be considered weak evidence to not "mess with time" in the way you're suggesting, and Harry will not go for a plan when he only has evidence against it being the best solution (this + time travel is constrained to 6 hours + not preserving her brain will make "easier" plans to save her impossible).

Since he's watched the entire 6 hours, he can be certain this will be sufficient.

This is not how time-travel works in this story, he doesn't need to watch her to do it. The less he knows about the situation the more he can "change" it, so the absolute smartest thing he could do if he planned this is to stay as far away from her body as possible.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 05 July 2013 09:09:21PM 2 points [-]
I do not see how that would follow at all, could you please explain?

Reversing information-theoretic death is fundamentally the problem of taking a bunch of atoms in random configurations and getting a person out of it - and not just any person, a particular person about whom you no longer have any data whatsoever.

This problem is fundamentally equivalent to time travel: if you can time travel, you can just go back and copy the original, and if you can reverse information-theoretic death, you can "resurrect" the visible universe at whatever time and put yourself in, essentially, a simulation of a prior time.

Dumbledore has already told Harry that he tried a variant of this once and that it didn't work. "Time" didn't like that. See this quote from chapter 90:

Actually, there's a stronger example from the Standford Prison Experiment arc, which is why I already retracted this point. (Though why it doesn't work is still a legitimate and interesting question.)

Comment author: lfghjkl 05 July 2013 10:47:32PM *  1 point [-]

This problem is fundamentally equivalent to time travel

I agree that if you solve time travel you can also solve death, but the other implication does not hold. A possible way for Harry to "resurrect" Hermione is to scan her brain, run it through an error-correcting algorithm (to reduce/remove errors introduced from decay and it being transfigured) and then "print out" a brain that is arbitrarily similar to Hermione's brain at the moment of her death. This will of course depend on the amount of computing power available to Harry, but since he is already "destined" to tear apart the stars, that will probably not be a problem. It'll also require some "minor" scientific breakthroughs.

Now, I am not at all saying that this is Harry's plan to resurrect her (In fact I suspect his plan to be very different from this), I am merely providing an example for how you can "restore" someone who is dead without being capable of time travel.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 05 July 2013 09:49:13PM 2 points [-]

This problem is fundamentally equivalent to time travel: if you can time travel, you can just go back and copy the original, and if you can reverse information-theoretic death, you can "resurrect" the visible universe at whatever time and put yourself in, essentially, a simulation of a prior time.

A person is a good bit smaller than the visible universe.

Comment author: FiftyTwo 04 July 2013 10:07:48PM 3 points [-]

The answer s much simpler I think. He has precommitted to stay there until dinner, but the process of thining over his failures is deeply emotionally unpleasant so he really wants it to be over.

Comment author: Ritalin 05 July 2013 11:27:28AM *  3 points [-]

One point for parsimony. Minus one point for failure to properly model the character.

Comment author: CronoDAS 04 July 2013 07:54:49PM *  1 point [-]

Is Quirrel hinting that McGonagall should Memory Charm Harry into not knowing that one of his best friends just died? (Worst case, Obliviate everything that happened since he received the Hogwarts letter, tell him he was hit by a truck and has been in a coma the whole time, then kick him out of Magical Britain completely.)

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 04 July 2013 08:22:49PM 4 points [-]

Where could the story possibly go in your worst case?

Now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind seeing a story about a middle-aged person who was kicked out of their Chosen One situation twenty years ago, but now the politics have shifted and they have to deal with magic and intrigue again. However, this would not remotely be HPMOR.

Comment author: CronoDAS 04 July 2013 08:44:12PM 0 points [-]

Where could the story possibly go in your worst case?

Harry somehow figures out what really happened and breaks the Masquerade wide open on his own? (No police record of the hit and run, for example?) You're right, though, it is a story-killer, so it's not going to happen quite that way, but anything less comprehensive would be a much easier lie to catch.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 05 July 2013 07:53:06PM 2 points [-]

I'd give a pretty to see a story about the Masquerade getting busted open, but I don't think it fits in HPMOR.

Comment author: drethelin 05 July 2013 08:24:19PM 5 points [-]

The masquerade is starting to come apart in Harry Potter and the Natural Twenty but that part of the story is still in its infancy.

Comment author: [deleted] 04 July 2013 07:07:13PM 5 points [-]

I'm actually starting to believe EricMS is right, and Harry might use the resurrection ritual - blood of the foe, bone of the ancestor, flesh of the servant. No, I don't know how he'd source Draco's blood, Quirrell being out of the question, and the bone is a tall order as well, even with both parents at Hogwarts and Harry apparently about to learn the Obliviation spell. Perhaps a tooth will do? They are dentists...

But it's still a wonderful idea, because it pays off the story's Star Wars references, in particular the comparison of Neville to Darth Vader. If a lightsaber spell is introduced in the second act, someone must lose his hand to it in the third.

Neville Longbottom cuts off Ron Weasley's hand with a lightsaber. This has to happen.

Comment author: ChristianKl 05 July 2013 08:30:59AM 0 points [-]

Is there anyone who qualifies as a servent for Hermoine?

As far as foes go, the troll might be viable.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 05 July 2013 06:25:29PM 0 points [-]

Harry himself could be viable too... not the best, but could work.

Also, where's the philosopher's stone? That was supposed to be the best way, in canon.

Comment author: Velorien 05 July 2013 07:33:09PM 1 point [-]

Still in the third-floor corridor, as far as we know. But while we know it can extend life (and in canon, you have to keep brewing and taking Elixir of Youth for that to work), there's no hint that it can bring back the dead.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 06 July 2013 04:37:28PM 1 point [-]

Not the dead-as-a-doornail, on its own - but given that it was Voldemort's preferred method, it seems like something that continues to be relevant after some form of death. Could come in handy in some way.

Comment author: Velorien 09 July 2013 12:32:38PM 1 point [-]

It might work as part of a two-step resurrection process, with the first step being to get Hermione as alive as the shade of Voldemort was in canon. Of course, that would rely on the existence of souls, which Harry does not believe in.

Comment author: [deleted] 05 July 2013 03:57:34AM *  1 point [-]

Perhaps a tooth will do? They are dentists...

Maybe, though I don't think teeth have any actual bone in them. But I'm sure a pinky toe wouldn't be missed. Not so much as one's child, anyway.

Comment author: [deleted] 05 July 2013 04:33:41AM 0 points [-]

I don't think teeth have any bone in them either. I'm perplexed by the number of serious criticisms this comment has received. I was telling a joke. Does it not read like one?

Comment author: [deleted] 05 July 2013 05:19:36AM 2 points [-]

Not really, but all of the responses sound friendly to me. Mine certainly was.

Comment author: DanielLC 04 July 2013 09:47:32PM 2 points [-]

I don't see why bone would be difficult, given that it doesn't have to be taken from a living ancestor. Not unless Dumbledore prepared for this and warded their graves.

Comment author: [deleted] 04 July 2013 09:58:38PM *  1 point [-]

Harry's unable to leave Hogwarts. There could be ways around the restriction, but they add complexity to the solution.

ETA: Which, to be clear, looks completely unworkable on its in-universe merits. The real problem is that Harry's never heard a full description of the ritual, neither Dumbledore nor Voldemort would give him one, and Voldemort would have stolen the book that contains it.

Comment author: Velorien 04 July 2013 07:44:33PM 6 points [-]

Truly awesome though that wouuld be, as others pointed out in the thread you link, there's no reason to believe that said ritual works on the properly dead.

Furthermore, think about the implications if it did work - everyone who knows about it, including all Death Eaters, would have those three items readied in case of their unexpected demise, and would thus be functionally invincible.

Comment author: ChrisHallquist 04 July 2013 06:55:51PM 8 points [-]

Two small points:

  1. Chapter 91 was creepy, especially when I tried imagining 11 year old Daniel Radcliffe speaking Harry's dialog. There will probably never be a live-action HPMOR.
  2. I'm really impressed with how Quirrellmort is being written here. I expected him to start being somewhat unsubtle at this point, but I was wrong and he's being more subtle than ever.
Comment author: TobyBartels 07 July 2013 12:53:32AM 1 point [-]

I usually imagine rational!harry as 20-year-old Daniel Radcliffe. Try as I might, I just can't imagine him as an 11-year-old. The few occasions when the story thrusts his age to my attention are always jarring.

Comment author: cultureulterior 04 July 2013 06:53:38PM 12 points [-]

"Rule 8: Any technique which is good enough to defeat me once is good enough to learn myself"

Voldemort has been defeated once. What would he do, if he wanted to learn how?

Comment author: Alsadius 05 July 2013 04:35:53AM 3 points [-]

Assuming the official account is accurate, we have no better explanation for what happened than Rowling's love shield(though I've heard the closely related theory that it was Voldemort breaking his promise to Lily that did it, because the laws of magic somehow enforce contracts). MoR!Voldemort is not the sort to leave it as an enigma, so he's likely gone looking through obscure magical texts of the sort that he didn't check pre-death to figure out what had the power to do it. As such, he would presumably have learned the importance of true love and/or honesty, and altered his tactics accordingly, which may be why Quirrelmort is noticeably less evil-acting than Voldemort.

Comment author: alex_zag_al 06 July 2013 07:45:10PM 2 points [-]

Maybe the love-magic is the essential tool in Voldemort's new plan. He's going to induce Harry to love all of humanity in the same way that Harry's mother loved him, and then make him die protecting them. They'll all be unkillable and the Voldemort's fears of a nuclear apocalypse will never materialize.

Comment author: TobyBartels 07 July 2013 12:52:13AM 2 points [-]

That's a nice idea, but love-magic doesn't actually make people immortal. It wouldn't prevent nuclear apocalypse in the long run.

Comment author: Alsadius 08 July 2013 03:40:10AM 2 points [-]

Harry should love all of humanity, and then get killed by a nuclear bomb, thereby giving all of humanity immunity to nuclear bombs.

Comment author: Velorien 05 July 2013 09:20:11AM 9 points [-]

Voldemort didn't break his promise to Lily - he intended to, presumably, but Lily broke her side first by trying to kill him instead of acting like a willing sacrifice.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 26 August 2013 07:27:57PM 0 points [-]

First, I am certain that he completely anticipated her response. Desperate pleas aside, she wouldn't have trusted that he would have really left Harry alive. He gave her a few seconds to think, come to that conclusion, and then she tried to the only option she thought she had left.

Second, the wording was:

"Very well," said the voice of death, now sounding coldly amused, "I accept the bargain. Yourself to die, and the child to live. Now drop your wand so that I can murder you."

The only part of the bargain that she had to uphold was dying.

Though I'm not at all certain that the scene is what it looks like.

Comment author: Velorien 04 July 2013 07:39:19PM 6 points [-]

I am inclined to believe that he wasn't defeated - the body everyone believes to be his had been "burnt to a crisp", which is inconsistent with everything we know about the Killing Curse.

Assuming, however, that the official account is accurate, the logical next step would be to learn the True Patronus Charm, the only thing he knows which can block a Killing Curse. He might also want to study Harry for lingering magical effects (if any such effect can endure over twelve years), though this is made more difficult by the resonance effect.

Comment author: kilobug 05 July 2013 12:57:14PM 2 points [-]

Do we know the True Patronus blocks the Killing Curse ? My own interpretation was more than Quirell-Harry magical interaction made both spells to fizzle when they interact (like in canon, where repeatedly Voldemort casting AK on Harry leads to unexpected results), but it wouldn't work with someone else casting either of the spells.

Comment author: Velorien 05 July 2013 02:12:39PM 9 points [-]

It's possible. However, insofar as the True Patronus is powered by the absolute rejection of death, and the Killing Curse is pretty much death in spell form, it is plausible that one could block the other.

Comment author: hairyfigment 05 July 2013 06:55:09PM -1 points [-]

I thought the idea was that reality extrudes an error message when they meet, because the Source of Magic can't decide what should happen. And when this error message meets...whatever causes prophecies...we get Harry's sense of doom (which seems stronger after his first Patronus casting and then after his recent resolution). I admit that second part confuses me.

Hopefully - since the oldest prophecies we know of supposedly refer to "the end of the world and its magic" - they all result from Ohtori "It" Harry reaching back in time.

Comment author: Ritalin 05 July 2013 11:31:53AM 1 point [-]

Nobody checked for dental history, did they?

Comment author: Velorien 05 July 2013 11:47:25AM *  3 points [-]

It seems unlikely that the DMLA are even aware of such techniques. However, we do not know either way.

Edit: How would anyone have access to Voldemort's original dental records in the first place? And would they be accurate given all the self-modification he apparently underwent during his time as the Dark Lord (glowing red eyes, serpentine features etc.)?

Comment author: Ritalin 05 July 2013 02:29:02PM -1 points [-]

Wizard ignorance on muggle matters is truly spectacular...

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 04 July 2013 06:12:30PM 6 points [-]

What does anyone make of Quirrel's claim to be David Monroe?

Comment author: Intrism 04 July 2013 07:51:25PM 17 points [-]

It means that it's confirmed that Quirrell wants people to think he's secretly David Monroe. I'd be wary of drawing any other conclusions, though it does seem more likely that Quirrell pretended to be Monroe during the war.

Comment author: Velorien 04 July 2013 06:26:49PM 1 point [-]

Do you mean in general, or in Chapter 92?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 04 July 2013 07:30:59PM 1 point [-]

In Chapter 92.

Comment author: Velorien 04 July 2013 07:34:26PM 10 points [-]

I have no theories yet. I did, however, just come across the following in my re-reading (chapter 60):

The Defense Professor's eyes were still in shadow, dark pits that could not be met. "Call it a whim, Mr. Potter. It has sometimes amused me to play the part of a hero. Who knows but that You-Know-Who would say the same."

Comment author: shminux 04 July 2013 05:30:08PM 10 points [-]

I think we are now well past Ender and on to Ender after the buggers kill Valentine.

Any creative souls want to imagine how this omake would go?

Comment author: tgb 05 July 2013 07:42:15PM 0 points [-]

V jbaqre vs Ryvrmre vapyhqrq guvf (naq cbffvoyl bguref) nf n jnl bs znxvat gur ernqre hapregnva bs nal fcbvyre-evqqra ersreraprf ur cynprf guebhtubhg gur grkg. Abj V pna fgvyy uneobe hapregnvagl vs RL unf Uneel gnyx nobhg Nanxva orpbzr Qnegu Inqre.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 04 July 2013 11:43:40PM 6 points [-]

On a side note, this probably should've really, really worried Michael.

... For that matter, it probably did.

Comment author: WrongBot 04 July 2013 05:19:25PM 2 points [-]

Quirrell is That Fucker.

Heavy spoilers for Nonjon's excellent A Black Comedy follow.

Va N Oynpx Pbzrql, Qnivq Zbaebr vf gur ragvgl perngrq jura gur Ubepehk va Evqqyr'f qvnel fhpprffshyyl erfheerpgf vgfrys, jvgu gur gjvfg gung vg jnf perngrq hfvat nyy bs Ibyqrzbeg'f 'cbfvgvir' rzbgvbaf. Guhf Qnivq Zbaebr vf bccbfrq gb Ibyqrzbeg, unf uvf zrzbevrf naq fxvyyf, naq frrf gung fgbel'f Uneel nf n cbgragvny gbby, nyyl, be rira rdhny.

Fbhaq snzvyvne? Gur anzr whfg znxrf vg boivbhf.

Comment author: shminux 04 July 2013 06:10:33PM 2 points [-]

The story had me at

He couldn't resist letting his mind wander onto the benefits and drawbacks of a turkey animagus form.

Comment author: Paulovsk 05 July 2013 01:24:43AM 1 point [-]

Started reading now. It's highly rated, so I'm expecting it to be at least amusing.

Comment author: Alsadius 05 July 2013 04:31:52AM 1 point [-]

I read it on recommendation from one of these threads. It was amusing, but I've enjoyed others of the author's stories more - the Potter/Firefly crossover Browncoat, Green Eyes, for all that the premise sounds dumb, was excellent.

Comment author: shminux 05 July 2013 10:42:32PM 0 points [-]

I like the one-liners, like

if you've ever seen an anaconda you can understand why I sometimes get called a parselcrotch.

Comment author: Alsadius 06 July 2013 03:45:54AM 0 points [-]

ABC was certainly funny as hell. (I actually reread it last night, after making the above post, hence the upgrade from "amusing"). The David Monroe plot element that's so often mentioned in these threads though seems entirely tacked-on. I disliked that feeling of the plot starting 2/3 of the way through.

Comment author: WrongBot 04 July 2013 05:12:43PM 1 point [-]

Hermione will be resurrected before the conclusion of this story.

(Given that Harry wins and souls aren't real.)

Comment author: jaibot 05 July 2013 03:46:09AM 0 points [-]

I continue to have at least 30% confidence that Hermione was never dead. There are too many would-be-conclusive bits of evidence just barely out of reach.

Comment author: WrongBot 05 July 2013 03:54:26AM 10 points [-]

I'm about 95% confident Eliezer wouldn't do such a thing.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 06 July 2013 04:55:36PM 1 point [-]

What would normally be considerd dead, sure. I wouldn't put it 19:1 against that Harry successfully prevented information-theoretic death.

Comment author: jaibot 05 July 2013 04:47:36AM 0 points [-]

I really miss Intrade.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 05 July 2013 01:38:16AM 11 points [-]

I'm a bit divided on how I'd feel about that. On the other hand, finding a way to resurrect her would be thematically appropriate. On the other hand, it would also be thematically appropriate if there wasn't any way, and you just had to accept that the universe doesn't always play fair, with you sometimes not getting everything you want despite your best efforts.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 04 July 2013 11:42:29PM 7 points [-]

I'll go a step farther, and say that regardless of the existence of souls, Hermione will be resurrected before the conclusion of this story.

Comment author: Dorikka 04 July 2013 08:23:43PM 2 points [-]

I sorta feel that I know what you're getting at, but "Hermione lives" seems like a precondition for "Harry wins", no?

Comment author: WrongBot 04 July 2013 08:46:36PM 0 points [-]

By "wins" I just meant "beats the bad guy(s)".

Comment author: kilobug 05 July 2013 05:27:11PM 1 point [-]

There is a very significant risk that without Hermione, Harry will become a bad guy. That's what the Hat warned him about, and we have reasons to think that it's why Quirrelmort tried to remove Hermione from Harry. And that's what the prophecies seem to be warning about.

Comment author: WrongBot 05 July 2013 07:27:25PM 1 point [-]

The bad guy(s) relative to Harry. Hermione coming back is important whichever way his morality goes.

Comment author: Michelle_Z 04 July 2013 04:55:09PM *  4 points [-]

Defense Professor had knocked upon the door to her office and then entered without waiting for her answer, and spoken before she could say a word. Part of Minerva wondered distantly whether Harry Potter had picked up that habit from his Defense Professor

Huh. Drawing connections between the two of them seems obvious, but then again, I might be reaching.

Comment author: MarkusRamikin 04 July 2013 04:28:10PM *  15 points [-]

I wonder what steps Harry took to test the limitations of his own Patronus. The thing is humanoid and it /speaks/. Is it conscious? Does it have memory, can you give it information, dispell it, call it back the next cay, and have it still know the information? Can it perform useful cognitive work, solve problems? Does it exist anywhere and in any way while not called forth by Harry's spell? (Can it think while Harry is asleep? what an asset that would be!)

And, dare I ask, can it recursively self-improve? ;) Okay, okay, stop it with the rotten tomatoes.

I'm sure the answer to most or all of that is "no" just because of the way it would affect the story but, if I were Harry, I'd test it anyway. It is a safer and more convenient magical-humanoid-that-speaks to examine than a Dementor, and Harry has given a lot of thought to how their minds work...

Comment author: Velorien 04 July 2013 06:49:51PM *  23 points [-]

"Is there another Patronus still present?" the old wizard said clearly to the bright creature.

The bright creature dipped its head in a nod.

"Can you find it?"

The silver head nodded again.

"Will you remember it, should it depart and come again?"

A final nod from the blazing phoenix.

-

They hadn't even gotten to the end of that corridor before Harry's Patronus raised its hand, politely, as though in a classroom.

Harry thought quickly. The question was how to - no, that was also obvious.

"It seems," Harry said in a coldly amused voice, "that someone has instructed this Patronus to speak its message only to me." He chuckled. "Well then. Pardon me, dear Bella. Quietus."

At once the silver humanoid said in Harry's own voice, "There is another Patronus which seeks this Patronus."

"What? " said Harry. And then, without pausing to think about what was happening, "Can you block it? Stop it from finding you?"

The silver humanoid shook its head.

Note that Harry's Patronus appears to inform him of its own initiative regarding a fact which is important for him to know. Also that it delays until he is prepared to hear the message.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 05 July 2013 06:10:48PM 2 points [-]

It might be borrowing mental capacity from Harry himself - useful for more perfect division of attention, but not necessarily better for all purposes.

Comment author: Velorien 04 July 2013 04:40:44PM 3 points [-]

Technically, a Dementor is not a humanoid - it only appears as one to those unable to face the cognitive gap that represents death.

Comment author: Velorien 04 July 2013 03:50:58PM *  13 points [-]

For the foreshadowing pile:

Chapter 20 (on the Pioneer plaque):

"So I am going to violate rule two - which was simply 'don't brag' - and tell you about something I have done. I don't see how the knowledge could do any harm. And I strongly suspect you would have figured it out anyway, once we knew each other well enough."

Chapter 46:

"Tell me, Mr. Potter, if you wanted to lose something where no one would ever find it again, where would you put it?"

Harry considered this question. "I suppose I shouldn't ask what you've found that needs losing -"

"Quite," said Professor Quirrell, as Harry had expected; and then, "Perhaps you will be told when you are older," which Harry hadn't.

Edit: Chapter 49:

"One might even regret your infant self's victory," said Professor Quirrell. His smile twisted. "If only You-Know-Who had lived, you might have persuaded him to teach you some of the knowledge that would have been your heritage, from one Heir of Slytherin to another." The smile twisted further, as though to mock the obvious impossibility, even given the premise.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 04 July 2013 03:40:11PM 18 points [-]

This may have been mentioned elsewhere, but chapter 53 introduces "death dolls", and Hermionie's corpse is decribed as "waxy and doll-like".

Comment author: DanArmak 05 July 2013 01:27:50PM 6 points [-]

The whole point of a death doll is to imitate a dead body perfectly and fool people into confusing the two (that was the implication with the death-doll of Bella). If so, we wouldn't expect Hermione's body to look unrealistic if it's in fact a death doll substitute.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 04 July 2013 03:20:11PM 21 points [-]

Did anyone else find it increasingly implausible that the teachers kept trying to speak to Harry while he was thinking? The first one or even two approaches made sense, but if a person who has just lost a close friend says that they want to be alone until dinner, the only sensible course of action seems to be to say "okay" and leave them alone. It'd be one thing if he hadn't spoken for anyone in a month, but this was just a few hours: it'd have been completely reasonable for anyone to want to be alone for that long.

Granted, given that this is Harry, they might have thought that he was in risk of doing something really rash... but if they feared that he'd do something so bad that it wouldn't have been enough for them to guard the door to the room where he was in, then McGonagall would have been insane to unlock his Time Turner! And if they thought that he was in danger of developing some really crazy plan while thinking, it should have been obvious after the first couple of times that interrupting him now would just make him more unreceptive, and it would have been better to wait until dinner.

I'm just drawing a complete blank here - why did they keep doing it? Doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 06 July 2013 02:48:13AM 1 point [-]

Harry is extremely creative, with an intent to kill, powers others know not, and a Time Turner. He killed a troll and escaped from Azkaban using his unique transfiguration skills.

Harry is dangerous and desperate. He's not just some depressed kid who wants to be left alone, he's an apocalypse waiting to happen.

McGonagall would have been insane to unlock his Time Turner!

Insane, or just playing by the rules, as usual? Very dumb, as I commented elsewhere, to give a desperate Harry unfettered control of his Time Turner, at his prompting.

Comment author: hairyfigment 06 July 2013 05:02:24AM 0 points [-]

I think Minerva herself considered it worthy of note that Dumbledore had used Transfiguration in combat and was still alive. She should know that Harry has joined this elite group. Now, you could use this as evidence of his recklessness if you believe there were lots of people like Harry who died. But I don't believe he would use some of the ...inventive solutions people have proposed, nor would Minerva believe it.

I think she should actually have unlocked his Time-Turner after Bellatrix, or at least after the trial, though she made the right decision by locking it when she did.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 06 July 2013 06:35:26AM 1 point [-]

Now, you could use this as evidence of his recklessness

I wouldn't. That's the rule following MInerva talking. She may have retired. We might see the new Griffindor Minerva doing what it takes to win, taking every edge she can in transfiguration. Harry's rock trick should be trivial for her.

Comment author: Vaniver 05 July 2013 11:41:17AM *  9 points [-]

Did anyone else find it increasingly implausible that the teachers kept trying to speak to Harry while he was thinking? The first one or even two approaches made sense, but if a person who has just lost a close friend says that they want to be alone until dinner, the only sensible course of action seems to be to say "okay" and leave them alone.

Eh. In more typical situations it isn't that odd to force people who want to be alone in bleak times to not be alone. (I'm not sure if the primary impetus here is an anti-suicide measure, the thought that it improves mood, despite the annoyance, or the inability of people who want to help to convince themselves they are helping without visible action.) That Quirrel recommended it makes it more sensible (though, as the strong reader suspicion goes, Quirrel is trying to sabotage their relationship with Harry), even though Harry protests.

Comment author: htns 05 July 2013 01:20:35AM -1 points [-]

It seemed to me it was the way Harry told them off. He didn't exactly act like the day was wrapped up and everything was already said.

Comment author: solipsist 04 July 2013 05:40:32PM 20 points [-]

Quirrell is trying to alienate Harry from his lifelines by manipulating everyone into being unhelpfully helpful. It's one of the core emotional triggers for the Harry, and the Defense Professor knows this.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 04 July 2013 11:38:39PM 13 points [-]

After this chapter I've updated heavily in favor of Quirrell being genuinely terrified and trying to run damage control. That means giving him more emotional lifelines.

Admittedly, it also probably means making Harry dependent on an information source Quirrell can trust not to say too much, i.e. himself, but...

Comment author: solipsist 05 July 2013 04:11:35AM *  1 point [-]

That does not seem to jive with the last lines of chapter 89, which are first-person accounts of Quirrell's feelings.

He'd felt the fury the boy had directed at some annoyance who was likely Dumbledore; followed by an unknown resolution whose unyielding hardness even he found adequate. With any luck, the boy had just discarded his foolish little reluctances.

Unseen by anyone, the Defense Professor's lips curved up in a thin smile. Despite its little ups and downs, on the whole this had been a surprisingly good day.

EDIT: I also updated in favor of Quirrell being genuinely terrified after chapter 92, but only slightly. The evidence from chapter 89 still dominates in my mind since 89 has an uncensored account of Quirrell's true feelings.

Comment author: solipsist 06 July 2013 02:27:15AM 1 point [-]

From 93:

The Defense Professor watched them both, the woman and the crying boy. His eyes were very cold, and very calculating.

He did not think that this would be enough.

Woop. There goes that theory :-).

Comment author: kilobug 06 July 2013 07:21:18PM 1 point [-]

First time I read that, I interpreted it as "it would not be enough to prevent Harry from tearing the world apart". But there is another possible interpretation : if we consider that Quirrelmort was trying to turn Harry dark, and killing Hermione was part of that plan, then we can interpret it completely to the opposite : the killing Hermione won't be enough to turn Harry dark.

I don't give a high probability to the second interpretation, but it does stand on its own feet.

Comment author: gwern 05 July 2013 04:13:23AM 22 points [-]

And quite specifically, ironically, and counterpointedly placed before the prophecy.

Comment author: solipsist 01 March 2014 04:41:37AM 0 points [-]

Note for readability: I did not realize that the prophecy was dialog, said aloud by Trelawney, until I read this comment. I read the prophecy as Quirrell thinking to himself, narrating for the reader why he was happy.

Comment author: Benito 04 July 2013 10:12:45PM 5 points [-]

For a rationalist fic, where you're meant to be able to work things out though, it does seem a bit 'magical' if the answer to every "well that's a bit weird" is "Quirrell probably did it". It's fitting the evidence to your theory.

Comment author: elharo 05 July 2013 12:45:43PM *  10 points [-]

What weird things do we know Quirrell wasn't behind?

  1. Dumbledore is Santa Clause and sneaks into students' bedrooms to leave them notes.
  2. Snape was helping SPHEW.
  3. Whoever memory charmed Rita Skeeter (Gilderoy Lockhart?) was almost certainly not Quirrell.
  4. Harry himself was behind the weird events in Chapter 13. In fact, Harry is behind a lot of the weird events in the book, but we don't always realize that because we see them from his point of view.
  5. The universe is behind Comed-Tea.

Anything else?

Comment author: alex_zag_al 06 July 2013 07:27:53PM *  0 points [-]

Whoever memory charmed Rita Skeeter (Gilderoy Lockhart?) was almost certainly not Quirrell.

What? Why? There was that time that he threatened her in chapter 25. Also, it would explain how he knew that Harry had enlisted the Weasley twins.

There's a motive, too. At lunch afterward, he made Harry deal with the cognitive dissonance of ruining somebody's life, yet feeling proud of himself at the same time. If I was Quirrell I would have helped fake the story just to make Harry rationalize destroying Rita Skeeter.

Comment author: elharo 06 July 2013 09:24:14PM 3 points [-]

It's possible that the Weasley twins hired Quirrell and not Lockhart, but I tend to think that Quirrell was genuinely surprised at the newspaper article about Harry's betrothal and it took him a few minutes to realize it was done with a false memory charm. Quirrell's smart, but not omniscient.

Comment author: solipsist 05 July 2013 05:03:41AM *  4 points [-]

For any weird thing, you may be able to find someone who thinks that "Quirrell did it". That doesn't mean some faction out there believes Quirrell is responsible for every weird thing -- different people think Quirrell is responsible for different weird things.

Comment author: Velorien 04 July 2013 10:16:41PM 8 points [-]

Good point. Now if only Quirrell wasn't actually behind 75% of all the weird things happening in the story (as far as we can tell)...

Comment author: gwern 04 July 2013 06:37:58PM 2 points [-]

It wasn't done at Quirrel's suggestion, though, as far as we can tell.

Comment author: tim 04 July 2013 07:41:28PM *  8 points [-]

Well, (in chapter 90), McGonagall's first visit seemed to be of her own accord but then the Defense Professor went in and upon returning said this to her:

And though it is not my own area of expertise, Deputy Headmistress, if there is any way you can imagine to convince the boy to stop sinking further into his grief and madness - any way at all to undo the resolutions he is coming to - then I suggest you resort to it immediately."

Manipulating and convincing people of things is absolutely Quirrell's area of expertise and it seems plausible that he realizes that putting immense pressure on McGonagall to do something (because poor old Quirrell sure can't!) will cause her to make poor decisions regarding whether Harry should be left alone and/or unobstructed in his activities.

Further supported by Snape's line from when he enters the room at the beginning of chapter 51:

"I also cannot imagine what the Deputy Headmistress is thinking," said the Potions Master of Hogwarts. "Unless I am meant to serve as a warning of where it will lead you, if you decide to take the blame for her death upon yourself."

and by the continuing pressure Quirrell exerts on McGonagall at the end of chapter 52:

"That would be worse than pointless. Dumbledore cannot reach the boy. At best he is wise enough to know this and make things no worse. I lack the requisite frame of mind. You are the one who - but I see that you still look for others to save you."

Again Quirrell cites his own inability to help with the problem and now disqualifies Dumbledore as well. The last part in particular echos Harry's criticism of her ineffectiveness and I wouldn't be surprised if Quirrell was somehow aware of their exchange and using McGonagall's weakened confidence to spur her to action.

So Quirrell seems to be manipulating McGonagall directly and everyone else by extension.

Comment author: JayDee 05 July 2013 10:07:47AM *  9 points [-]

I suspect Quirrell was aware of the exchange, if he can do the same trick as in canon with names:

"No! You-Know-Who killed Hermione!" She was hardly aware of what she was saying, that she hadn't screened the room against who might be listening. "Not you! No matter what else you could've done, it's not you who killed her, it was Voldemort! If you can't believe that you'll go mad, Harry!"

Specific mention of not screening the room, and then saying the V-word out loud.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 26 August 2013 07:43:12PM 0 points [-]

Are you talking about the Taboo? Because I really got the impression that he couldn't implement it until he was in charge of the Ministry.

Comment author: JayDee 27 August 2013 09:46:11AM 1 point [-]

That is a good point. And in canon, it was a useful thing to do since it was only the Order & Co. who dared say the name, allowing for decent signal to noise.

I'd thought maybe in HP:MoR the order might be showing more caution, but in Multiple Hypothesis Testing Dumbledore uses the word - and with Moody there. I'd expect the HP:MoR versions of Dumbledore and Moody to to avoid it if they thought there was serious risk.

That said, the specific mention of not screening for listeners does still jump out at me like a Hint.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 27 August 2013 07:32:05PM 3 points [-]

It struck me as a hint as well, but I don't think it was specifically saying Voldemort's name that did it. It's just that she openly states that she believes him to be alive and active, and thus reveals to a surreptitious listener that she--and likely Dumbledore--have this knowledge or are acting under these beliefs. That's more than enough, given the interest that the murderer and Quirrell (if they are different people) would have in the room at the time.

Comment author: CAE_Jones 04 July 2013 03:32:05PM 1 point [-]

Had the first two been Macgonnagle and the Defense Professor, then the rest make a bit more sense in that the Defense Professor urged Macgonnagle to do whatever it took to get Harry off his current path, and, well, Harry had just lectured her about how responsibility works, and so she was in a state of mind that demanded action.

That said, you're totally right: continuing to throw potential emotional bonds at him to try and cheer him up wasn't the best idea, at least not so soon. Surely Macgonnagle is smart enough to know that Harry knew exactly what was going on, and would therefore be less receptive? It's a general trend when working with stubborn and upset people, and I imagine this is no less true among Hogwarts students, and thinking about it for five seconds should have made it clear that it'd only be worse with Harry. I suppose she couldn't think of anything better to try.