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monsterzero comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 22, chapter 93 - Less Wrong Discussion

5 [deleted] 06 July 2013 03:02AM

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Comment author: monsterzero 06 July 2013 03:39:34PM 15 points [-]

they sometimes find issues even where issues don't actually exist

Issues are subjective. Something that's not an issue for you can still be an issue for someone else.

For example, you have a problem with thakil's phrasing and have offered a "corrected" version. However, you've destroyed the point of thakil's sentence, which is that it's possible that ((Person A finds X enjoyable) AND (Person A finds X problematic)). I know from direct experience that this is true; I have been Person A in that situation.

If you have not personally been in that situation, it doesn't follow that another person has not, nor that they are somehow being "unfair".

Comment author: thakil 06 July 2013 05:29:56PM 1 point [-]

Well quite. When I call this something problematic that can be still enjoyed, I find it problematic and still enjoy it!

With regards to whether an issue exists or not.. I mean if readers can perceive it, then it exists. Eliezer can decide that the story he's going to tell is just going to alienate those readers, or perhaps he can make adjustments now or in future to avoid that. My minor concern is that in some of his responses I don't feel like he has quire grasped the substance of the complaints: the problems exist, and trying to argue that they do not is probably a hiding to nothing.

Comment author: Dentin 06 July 2013 08:53:29PM 13 points [-]

With regards to whether an issue exists or not.. I mean if readers can perceive it, then it exists.

How certain are you of this?

If told that a particular tune is present, a significant fraction of people will report that they can hear the tune when presented with recordings of white noise.

If told that a pattern is present, a significant fraction of people will find a pattern in a random distribution of points. (Constellations, for example.)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 07 July 2013 07:03:27PM 5 points [-]

This could be an interesting way to measure mindkilling. Get people from different groups, let them hear white noise or see random points and ask them to report how often they hear/see messages offensive to their groups. (For example how often a fundamentalist religious person would hear/see indecent or satanic messages.)

Comment author: thakil 07 July 2013 08:08:27AM 3 points [-]

Indeed. When we are talking about facts about reality, then these kind of things become a problem. When we are talking about people's critical response to the text, then if someone has that response to a text, then its there for them at least. If multiple people do, then we can argue that

a-there's something about the text which causes this reaction in a subgroup of people b-this subgroup of people would have this reaction to every single text.

I assign b a lower probability because this is a reaction borne of particular chapters rather than the entire novel.

Comment author: lithrael 08 July 2013 02:50:29PM 1 point [-]

Are we talking about whether or not a measurable phenomenon exists, though? I thought we were talking about a completely subjective kind of thing. You can control for whether or not people are judging levels of sound or patterns or physical comfort inaccurately due to some bias, but is there even such a thing as judging their own emotional reactions inaccurately due to some bias?

Comment author: Sheaman3773 27 August 2013 09:43:03PM 0 points [-]

I don't think that it's judging their own emotional reactions inaccurately due to some bias so much as it is perceiving information in a matter that it results in an unwarranted emotional reaction due to some bias.

A persecution complex is the standard example, I believe. If one is predisposed to believe that they are being attacked, then one sees it everywhere--sometimes they are noticing something real that is subtle enough that others don't pick it up, and sometimes they are (essentially) selectively interpreting the information to back up their preconceived notions.

Comment author: fractalman 09 July 2013 05:23:38PM *  0 points [-]

I get something like that on an airplane or bus every once in a while. I usually spend about a minute trying to exert some control over the process, but I've yet to internally locate the on/off switch for that version of it. (it's not a normal ear-wig, which can be defused by forcibly thinking of a different arbitrary song; it's confined to what may or may not be the harmonics of the vehicle I'm on.)

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 09 July 2013 01:58:18AM 1 point [-]

Issues are subjective. Something that's not an issue for you can still be an issue for someone else.

Then it is an issue for them.

Projecting the problem outwards is just that - seeing the problem where the problem isn't