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Raiden comments on "Stupid" questions thread - Less Wrong Discussion

40 Post author: gothgirl420666 13 July 2013 02:42AM

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Comment author: Raiden 14 July 2013 10:45:55PM 4 points [-]

My current view is that most animals are not people, in the sense that they are not subject to moral concern. Of course, I do get upset when I see things such as animal abuse, but it seems to me that helping animals only nets me warm fuzzy feelings. I know animals react to suffering in a manner that we can sympathize with, but it just seems to me that they are still just running a program that is "below" that of humans. I think I feel that "react to pain" does not equal "worthy of moral consideration." The only exceptions to this in my eyes may be "higher mammals" such as other primates. Yet others on this site have advocated concern for animal welfare. Where am I confused?

Comment author: simplicio 15 July 2013 06:06:56PM 5 points [-]

First thing to note is that "worthy of moral consideration" is plausibly a scalar. The philosophical & scientific challenges involved in defining it are formidable, but in my books it has something to do with to what extent a non-human animal experiences suffering. So I am much less concerned with hurting a mosquito than a gorilla, because I suspect mosquitoes do not experience much of anything, but I suspect gorillas do.

Although I think ability to suffer is correlated with intelligence, it's difficult to know whether it scales with intelligence in a simple way. Sure, a gorilla is better than a mouse at problem-solving, but that doesn't make it obvious that it suffers more.

Consider the presumed evolutionary functional purpose of suffering, as a motivator for action. Assuming the experience of suffering does not require very advanced cognitive architecture, why would a mouse necessarily experience vastly less suffering that a more intelligent gorilla? It needs the motivation just as much.

To sum up, I have a preference for creatures that can experience suffering to not suffer gratuitously, as I suspect that many do (although the detailed philosophy behind this suspicion is muddy to say the least). Thus, utilitarian veganism, and also the unsolved problem of what the hell to do about the "Darwinian holocaust."

Comment author: ChristianKl 15 July 2013 06:49:50AM 2 points [-]

Do you think that all humans are persons? What about unborn children? A 1 year old? A mentally handicapped person?

What your criteria for granting personhood. Is it binary?

Comment author: Raiden 16 July 2013 03:13:35AM 3 points [-]

I have no idea what I consider a person to be. I think that I wish it was binary because that would be neat and pretty and make moral questions a lot easier to answer. But I think that it probably isn't. Right now I feel as though what separates person from nonperson is totally arbitrary.

It seems as though we evolved methods of feeling sympathy for others, and now we attempt to make a logical model from that to define things as people. It's like "person" is an unsound concept that cannot be organized into an internally consistent system. Heck, I'm actually starting to feel like all of human nature is an internally inconsistent mess doomed to never make sense.

Comment author: drethelin 14 July 2013 11:20:27PM 3 points [-]

Are you confused? It seems like you recognize that you have somewhat different values than other people. Do you think everyone should have the same values? In that case all but one of the views is wrong. On the other hand, if values can be something that's different between people it's legitimate for some people to care about animals and others not to.

Comment author: Raiden 15 July 2013 01:44:31AM 0 points [-]

I am VERY confused. I suspect that some people can value some things differently, but it seems as though there should be a universal value system among humans as well. The thing that distinguishes "person" from "object" seems to belong to the latter.

Comment author: Baughn 15 July 2013 11:10:29AM 0 points [-]

Is that a normative 'should' or a descriptive 'should'?

If the latter, where would it come from? :-)

Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 15 July 2013 05:33:08AM 1 point [-]

Why do you assume you're confused?

Comment author: Raiden 16 July 2013 03:08:10AM 0 points [-]

Well I certainly feel very confused. I generally do feel that way when pondering anything related to morality. The whole concept of what is the right thing to do feels like a complete mess and any attempts to figure it out just seem to add to the mess. Yet I still feel very strongly compelled to understand it. It's hard to resist the urge to just give up and wait until we have a detailed neurological model of a human brain and are able to construct a mathematical model from that which would explain exactly what I am asking when I ask what is right and what the answer is.

Comment author: somervta 15 July 2013 02:32:26AM 1 point [-]

Three hypothesis which may not be mutually exclusive:

1) Some people disagree (with you) about whether or not some animals are persons.

2) Some people disagree (with you) about whether or not being a person is a necessary condition for moral consideration - here you've stipulated 'people' as 'things subject to moral concern', but that word may too connotative laden for this to be effective.

3) Some people disagree (with you) about 'person'/'being worthy of moral consideration' being a binary category.

Comment author: [deleted] 17 July 2013 05:09:49AM -1 points [-]

I think you are confused in thinking that humans are somehow not just also running a program that reacts to pain and whatnot.

You feel sympathy for animals, and more sympathy for humans. I don't think that requires any special explanation or justification, especially when doing so results in preferences or assertions that are stupid: "I don't care about animals at all because animals and humans are ontologically distinct."

Why not just admit that you care about both, just differently, and do whatever seems best from there?

Perhaps just taking your apparent preferences at fact value like that you run into some kind of specific contradiction, or perhaps not. If you do, then you at least have a concrete muddle to resolve.