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MrMind comments on "Stupid" questions thread - Less Wrong Discussion

40 Post author: gothgirl420666 13 July 2013 02:42AM

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Comment author: Qiaochu_Yuan 13 July 2013 04:57:13AM *  43 points [-]

My admittedly very cynical point of view is to assume that, to a first-order approximation, most people don't have beliefs in the sense that LW uses the word. People just say words, mostly words that they've heard people they like say. You should be careful not to ascribe too much meaning to the words most people say.

In general, I think it's a mistake to view other people through an epistemic filter. View them through an instrumental filter instead: don't ask "what do these people believe?" but "what do these people do?" The first question might lead you to conclude that religious people are dumb. The second question might lead you to explore the various instrumental ways in which religious communities are winning relative to atheist communities, e.g. strong communal support networks, a large cached database of convenient heuristics for dealing with life situations, etc.

Comment author: MrMind 15 July 2013 08:47:30AM 3 points [-]

don't ask "what do these people believe?" but "what do these people do?"

If there was a way to send a message to my 10 years ago former self, and I could only send a hundred of characters, that's what I would send.

Comment author: gjm 15 July 2013 03:36:18PM 2 points [-]

I'm obviously terribly shallow. I would send a bunch of sporting results / stock price data.

Comment author: MrMind 15 July 2013 03:43:00PM *  1 point [-]

I believe that there are plenty of statistics that shows how suddenly acquiring a large sum of money on the long term doesn't make you a) richer; b) happier. Of course, to everyone I say this, I hear the reply "I would know how to make myself happy", but obviously this can't be true for everyone. In this case, I prefer to believe to be the average guy...

Comment author: gjm 15 July 2013 07:27:04PM *  1 point [-]

I think the current consensus is that in fact having more money does make you happier.[1] As for richer, I can look at how I've lived in the past and observe that I've been pretty effective at being frugal and not spending money just because I have it. Of course it's possible that a sudden cash infusion 10 years ago would have broken all those good habits, but I don't see any obvious reason to believe it.

[1] See e.g. this (though I'd be a bit cautious given where it's being reported) and the underlying research.

[EDITED to fix a formatting glitch.]

Comment author: MrMind 16 July 2013 08:24:28AM *  1 point [-]

As I said, this is the standard answer I get, albeit a little bit more sophisticated than the average.
Unless you're already rich and still having good saving habits, I see a very obvious reason why you should have broken those habits: you suddenly don't need to save anymore. All the motivational structure you have in place to save suddenly lose meaning.
Anyway, I don't trust myself that much in the long run.

Comment author: gjm 16 July 2013 03:01:36PM 2 points [-]

this is the standard answer I get

I am not aware of any valid inference from "I hear this often" to "this is wrong" :-).

Unless you're already rich and still having good saving habits, I see a very obvious reason why you should have broken those habits: you suddenly don't need to save anymore.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "rich" and "need". I don't feel much like giving out the details of my personal finances here just to satisfy Some Guy On The Internet that I don't fit his stereotypes, so I'll just say that my family's spending habits haven't changed much (and our saving has accordingly increased in line with income) over ~ 20 years in which our income has increased substantially and our wealth (not unusually, since wealth can be zero or negative) has increased by orders of magnitude. On the other hand, I'm not retired just yet and trying to retire at this point would be uncomfortable, though probably not impossible.

So, sure, it's possible that a more sudden and larger change might have screwed me up in various ways. But, I repeat, I see no actual evidence for that, and enough evidence that my spending habits are atypical of the population that general factoids of the form "suddenly acquiring a lot of money doesn't make you richer in the long run" aren't obviously applicable. (Remark: among those who suddenly acquire a lot of money, I suspect that frequent lottery players are heavily overrepresented. So it's not even the general population that's relevant here, but a population skewed towards financial incompetence.)

Comment author: MrMind 16 July 2013 04:03:05PM *  1 point [-]

don't feel much like giving out the details of my personal finances here just to satisfy Some Guy On The Internet that I don't fit his stereotypes

I agree that you shouldn't, I'll just say that indeed you do fit the stereotype.

So, sure, it's possible that a more sudden and larger change might have screwed me up in various ways. But, I repeat, I see no actual evidence for that

I think I've traced the source of disagreement, let me know if you agree on this analysis.
It's a neat exercise in tracking priors.
You think that your saving ratio is constant as a function of the derivative of your income, while I think that there are breakdown threshold at large value of the derivative. The disagreement then is about the probability of a breakdown threshold.
I, using the outside view, say "according to this statistics, normal people have a (say) 0.8 probability of a breakdown, so you have the same probability"; you, using the inside view, say "using my model of my mind, I say that the extension of the linear model in the far region is still reliable".
The disagreement then transfers to "how well one can know its own mind or motivational structure", that is "if I say something about my mind, what is the probability that it is true?"
I don't know your opinion on this, but I guess it's high, correct?
In my case, it's low (NB: it's low for myself). From this descend all the opinions that we have expressed!

Remark: among those who suddenly acquire a lot of money, I suspect that frequent lottery players are heavily overrepresented. So it's not even the general population that's relevant here, but a population skewed towards financial incompetence.

Well, famous-then-forgotten celebrities (in any field: sports, music, movies, etc.) fit the category, but I don't know how much influence that has. Anyway, I have the feeling that financial competence is a rare thing to have in the general population, so even if the prior is skewed towards incompetence, that is not much of an effect.

Comment author: gjm 16 July 2013 07:08:21PM *  1 point [-]

I'll just say that indeed you do fit the stereotype.

Just for information: Are you deliberately trying to be unpleasant?

You think that your saving ratio is constant as a function of the derivative of your income

First of all, a terminological question: when you say "the derivative of your income" do you actually mean "your income within a short period"? -- i.e., the derivative w.r.t. time of "total income so far" or something of the kind? It sounds as if you do, and I'll assume that's what you mean in what follows.

So, anyway, I'm not quite sure whether you're trying to describe my opinions about (1) the population at large and/or (2) me in particular. My opinion about #1 is that most people spend almost all that their income; maybe their savings:income ratio is approximately constant, or maybe it's nearer the truth to say that their savings in absolute terms are constant, or maybe something else. But the relevant point (I think) is that most people are, roughly, in the habit of spending until they start running out of money. My opinion about #2 (for which I have pretty good evidence) is that, at least within the range of income I've experienced to date, my spending is approximately constant in absolute terms and doesn't go up much with increasing income or increasing wealth. In particular, I have strong evidence that (1) many people basically execute the algorithm "while I have money: spend some" and (2) I don't.

(I should maybe add that I don't think this indicates any particular virtue or brilliance on my part, though of course it's possible that my undoubted virtue and brilliance are factors. It's more that most of the things I like to do are fairly cheap, and that I'm strongly motivated to reduce the risk of Bad Things in the future like running out of money.)

I think that there are breakdown threshold at large value of the derivative

Always possible (for people in general, for people-like-me, for me-in-particular). Though, at the risk of repeating myself, I think the failure of sudden influxes of money to make people richer in the long term is probably more a matter of executing that "spend until you run out" algorithm. Do you know whether any of the research on this stuff resolves that question?

I, using the outside view, [...]; you, using the inside view, [...]

I try to use both, and so far as I can tell I'm using both here. I'm not just looking at my model of the insides of my mind and saying "I can see I wouldn't do anything so stupid" (I certainly don't trust my introspection that much); so far as I can tell, I would make the same predictions about anyone else with a financial history resembling mine.

Now, for sure, I could be badly wrong. I might be fooling myself when I say I'm judging my likely behaviour in this hypothetical situation on the basis of my (somewhat visible externally) track record, rather than my introspective confidence in my mental processes. I might be wrong about how much evidence that track record is. I might be wrong in my model of why so many people end up in money trouble even if they suddenly acquire a pile of money; maybe it's a matter of those "breakpoints" rather than of a habit of spending until one runs out. Etc. So I'm certainly not saying I know that me-10-years-ago would have been helped rather than harmed by a sudden windfall. Only that, so far as I can tell, I most likely would have been.

even if the prior is skewed towards incompetence, that is not much of an effect.

I suggest that people who play the lottery a lot are probably, on balance, exceptionally incompetent, and that those people are probably overrepresented among windfall recipients.

I had a quick look for more information about the effects of suddenly getting money.

This article on Yahoo!!!!! Finance describes a study showing that lottery winners are more likely to end up bankrupt if they win more. That seems to fit with my theory that big lottery wins are correlated with buying a lot of lottery tickets, hence with incompetence. It quotes another study saying that people spend more money on lottery tickets if they're invited to do it in small increments (which is maybe very weak evidence against the "breakpoint" theory, which has the size-of-delta -> tendency-to-spend relationship going the other way -- except that the quantities involved here are tiny). And it speculates (without citing any sort of evidence) that what's going on with bankrupt lottery winners is that they keep spending until they run out, which is also my model.

This paper (PDF) finds that people in Germany are more likely to become entrepreneurs if they have made "windfall gains" (inheritance, donations, lottery winnings, payments from things like life insurance), suggesting that at least some people do more productive things with windfalls than just spend them all.

This paper [EDITED to add: ungated version]looks at an unusual lottery in 1832, and according to ]this blog post finds that on balance winners did better, with those who were already better off improving and those who were worse off being largely unaffected.

[EDITED to add more information about the 1832 lottery now that I can actually read the paper:] Some extracts from the paper: "Participation was nearly universal" (so, maybe, no selection-for-incompetence effect); "The prize in this lottery was a claim on a parcel of land" (so, different from lotteries with monetary prizes); "lottery losers look similar to lottery winners in a series of placebo checks" (so, again, maybe no selection for incompetence); "the poorest third of lottery winners were essentially as poor as the poorest third of lottery winners" (so the wins didn't help the poorest, but don't seem to have harmed them either).

Make of all that what you will.

Comment author: MrMind 17 July 2013 09:04:15AM 1 point [-]

Just for information: Are you deliberately trying to be unpleasant?

No, even though I speculated that the sentence you're answering could have been interpreted that way. Just to be clear, the stereotype here is "People who, when said that the general population usually end up bankrupt after a big lottery win, says 'I won't, I know how to save'". Now I ask you: do you think you don't fit the stereotype?

Anyway, now I have a clearer picture of your model: you think that there are no threshold phoenomena whatsoever, not only for you, but for the general population. You believe that people execute the same algorithm regardless of the amount of money it is applied to. So your point is not "I (probably) don't have breakdown threshold" but "I (probably) don't execute a bad financial algorithm" That clarifies some more things. Besides, I'm a little sad that you didn't answered to the main point, which was "How well do you think you know the inside mechanism of your mind?"

That seems to fit with my theory that big lottery wins are correlated with buying a lot of lottery tickets, hence with incompetence.

That would be bad bayesian probability. The correct way to treat it is "That seems to fit with my theory better than your theory". Do you think it does? Or that it supports my theory equally well? I'm asking it because at the moment I'm behind my firm firewall and cannot access those links, if you care to discuss it further I could comment this evening.

I'll just add that I have the impression that you're taking things a little bit too personally, I don't know why you care to such a degree, but pinpointing the exact source of disagreement seems to be a very good exercise in bayesian rationality, we could even promote it to a proper discussion post.

Comment author: Randy_M 15 July 2013 06:30:59PM 1 point [-]

Why in particular?

Comment author: MrMind 16 July 2013 08:19:01AM 1 point [-]

The answer depends on how much personal you want me to get... Let's just say I would have evalued some people a lot more accurately.