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drethelin comments on Open Thread, October 7 - October 12, 2013 - Less Wrong Discussion
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Comments (312)
There's nothing wrong with selfish intent. Most of my intents are selfish.
I see I had a more constrained idea of selfishness in mind than you did. I'm not interested in arguing semantics (or maybe I am?). Removed the part about selfishness. It wasn't the point anyways.
ETA: Here's what I think is selfish: pushing your goals without concern for others. Perhaps you assumed a more general interpretation where looking for pleasure and avoiding pain is selfish. In that case, you've made the word useless, because it applies to everyone.
your definition of selfishness does not seem to apply here, as he seems to want to help everyone else in his own situation.
So he says. He belongs to the group he's trying to help. He seems to have no concern for LWers. Was I correct about your definition?
Pretty much. I think the use of the word selfish as a pejorative is usually bad.
I used to think so too.
What changed your mind?
And, relatedly, is there a difference between pushing my goals without concern for others, and pushing my goals in situations where I expect others to be harmed by my doing so?
I don't think the word selfish ever has had a positive connotation, and rarely a neutral one. I used to argue about word definitions, but then I realized it's less frustrating to use words the way people usually do. I think self-interest is a similar word usually used in a more neutral manner.
I think a good rule of thumb is to assume people don't mean to use words in ways that describe everything or nothing in the reference class i.e. "everyone is selfish and nobody is an altruist", "no love is unconditional". Don't think people are as stupid as their language is.
I think people use stronger words for this, but selfish is used too. Evil comes to mind.
Agreed.
Do you mean to imply that you consider this evil, in addition to being selfish? Or do you just mean to make a statement about how people use words?
Both. Depends on the extent of harm, obviously. I also don't mean to imply it's the only way people use the word evil. I steelmanned your question a bit. I assume you mean net harm, not minor collateral damage.
The norms here are probably a bit different, and adapting to the local language is desirable.
Except, of course, if they go against my inclusive interests in any way that my social influence can hope to impact. In that case it is Wrong, Other-Tribalish, sinister, naive, uncouth, dirty and generally low status.