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Open Thread, October 7 - October 12, 2013

5 Post author: Thomas 07 October 2013 02:52PM

If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post (even in Discussion), then it goes here.

Comments (312)

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 07 October 2013 03:45:27PM 11 points [-]

We like our referencing here on Less Wrong. Reference-heavy people (gwern, Yvain, lukeprog, I'm looking at you), do you have some system for keeping track of your common go-to references that you use over and over again in multiple pieces of work?

I'm kind of expecting "yes, I have a dirty great text file" as a response to this, but perhaps hoping for something more awesome.

Comment author: Lumifer 07 October 2013 04:05:37PM 3 points [-]

A dirty great text file is awesome: http://xkcd.com/208/

Yes, seriously.

Comment author: ChristianKl 07 October 2013 04:50:52PM *  5 points [-]

I'm not super reference heavy but I myself use evernote quite a lot.

Whenever I find something that I probably want to reference in the future I clip it into evernote.

Evernote has the advantage that there a google plugin that searches through your evernote everytime you do a google search. Finding a reference again takes searching. Sometimes more sometimes less. If you want to reduce the time it takes you to refind information, evernote tags or simple hashtags help.

Back in Google Reader days Google Reader search was also quite central, because I often used to quote stuff that came into my RSS feed on some way.

If you want to go more high tech there are options like http://www.mendeley.com/ to manage references. Zotero and CiteULike are similar solutions that are specifically designed for references management.

I personally still use Evernote over single purpose reference management systems because I can simply dumb all information that I might need later into evernote.

Evernote happens to be a cloud service of a US company, so it not 100% secure for all types of information. If I could get a similar service that's hosted safely I would switch, but at the moment convenience wins over data privacy for myself for most data.

There also information that so important that I want to have it available in brain memory. That information goes into Anki.

Comment author: Suryc11 08 October 2013 01:17:42AM 1 point [-]

Seconding Evernote for managing both citations and information in general.

The ability to tag content is indispensable, and combined with a powerful search, Evernote becomes an external hard drive for your brain.

One thing to keep in mind is that this is one of those things that becomes progressively more useful the more you use it and invest in it (e.g., clip anything of interest, tag religiously).

Comment author: [deleted] 10 October 2013 03:26:54PM *  1 point [-]

I second the recommendation of using Evernote for saving references and Anki (or other spaced repetition software) for brain storage.

As for Google Reader, I miss it a lot, but I've found that feedly is a full replacement. Subscribing to pro I now save everything I read there directly to Evernote since it offers integration with it.

Comment author: hyporational 10 October 2013 03:38:50PM 0 points [-]

Subscribing to pro I now save everything I read there directly to Evernote since it offers integration with it.

It does? Awesome!

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 October 2013 03:40:41PM 0 points [-]

Subscribing to pro I now save everything I read there directly to Evernote since it offers integration with it.

Do you mean manual saving of posts or is there a setting to automatically redirect all posts into a special Evernote notebook?

Comment author: [deleted] 11 October 2013 09:08:35AM *  1 point [-]

Manual saving, there is a keyboard shortcut and clickable icon that saves whatever you are reading to Evernote.

Comment author: hyporational 12 October 2013 06:05:43AM *  3 points [-]

I'm writing a literature review at the moment, and use Evernote to organize the references. I tag them with year, subject, type, language. I give each reference a number. I abbreviate the conclusions of the references in the notes that contain the original articles as pdf files, and will finally use those snippets to construct the review article.

Comment author: Bakkot 07 October 2013 03:51:07PM *  7 points [-]

I'm told, and quite willing to believe, that your salary has more to do with the five minutes of salary negotiation than the next several years of work. I am also told that salary negotiation is very much a skill.

As such, it seems it would be worth a fairly substantial amount of time and money to practice and/or get coaching in this skill. Is this done? That is, how likely am I to be able to find someone, preferably someone who has worked on the business end of salary negotiation at somewhere like Google, who I can pay to practice salary negotiation with?

ETA: I've read extensively about how to negotiate (though of course there's always something more). What I'm interested in is practice.

Comment author: Vaniver 07 October 2013 04:36:16PM 7 points [-]

I believe Ramit Sethi is the general recommendation here.

Comment author: Dagon 07 October 2013 05:57:02PM 4 points [-]

Note that the comparison (more to do with X than Y) isn't very helpful for cases where X and Y are not exclusive, and/or related. For this particular topic, the quality and quantity of work in many fields has a direct effect on your ability to negotiate for salary (for three reasons: your actual ability to positively impact the business, your confidence in asking for what you're worth, and your (prospective) employer's comfort level in treating you differently from your nominal peers).

Also, 5 minutes of salary negotiation is bull crap. There is no excuse not to spend dozen hours of research and have multiple 30 minute conversations every year or two. Of course, you should put the same level of thought and effort into other areas of job-satisfaction (commute, hours, duties, etc.) as well.

Comment author: SatvikBeri 08 October 2013 11:55:33PM 2 points [-]

Note that the comparison (more to do with X than Y) isn't very helpful for cases where X and Y are not exclusive, and/or related.

I find it helpful to model salary as

(value contributed) X (percentage extracted through negotiation)

in most cases. For a huge swathe of people a marginal hour in negotiation is worth much more than a marginal hour in contributing value. And "a marginal hour invested in Y produces more than a marginal hour in Z" is very useful information.

Also, 5 minutes of salary negotiation is bull crap. There is no excuse not to spend dozen hours of research and have multiple 30 minute conversations every year or two. Of course, you should put the same level of thought and effort into other areas of job-satisfaction (commute, hours, duties, etc.) as well.

I agree that you should be willing to spend a lot of time on negotiation, but would like to clarify that investing even an hour is often exceptionally valuable.

Comment author: Dorikka 07 October 2013 08:50:13PM 1 point [-]

You might be interested in this article.

Comment author: SatvikBeri 08 October 2013 09:42:43PM *  9 points [-]

Referrals are the best source for finding someone involved in negotiation at a specific company. I believe that Google has HR negotiate salaries, so if you know any Googlers, asking them to introduce you to someone in HR will probably work.

If you haven't done so already, you can get ~80% of the value here just by practicing with a random friend playing the role of hiring manager. As you mentioned, most of the value is in ingraining the behaviors through practice, not in the extra knowledge you get. So you don't necessarily need a specialist for this.

If you are interested in Effective Altruism (donate 10% or more of your income or work at an EA organization) then I would be happy to help. I have successfully negotiated 80%+ raises before, and taught 7 people to negotiate with average results of 30% or more raises. About half of the teaching was role-played practice. Feel free to email me at satvik.beri@gmail.com .

Comment author: Coscott 07 October 2013 05:06:33PM 5 points [-]

You should put tags on the open thread so it is identified as the most recent open thread.

Comment author: Thomas 07 October 2013 05:22:03PM 3 points [-]

Done.

Comment author: niceguyanon 07 October 2013 07:23:02PM *  6 points [-]

What are some facts that would cause, an immediate update in beliefs and non trivial daily life application? I am looking for things that are relatively uncontroversial, things that people just aren't aware of and if they knew about it, they would change they way they feel about it immediately.

For example I just found out that 2/3rds of imported extra virgin olive oil is adulterated or not actually olive oil. Some brands that I recognize and have bought my whole life is not really extra virgin olive oil, therefore I never got the health benefits. Consumer reports and UC Davis tests show corroborating evidence that most cheap evoo is not what it claims to be. Knowing this, I will probably never again buy those brands who do not undergo voluntary quality testing and seek out to buy authentic evoo or at the very least attempt avoid overpaying for fake olive oil when I could just go with regular cooking oil. This article has information and links to the UC Davis testing results.

Comment author: Lumifer 07 October 2013 07:40:36PM *  4 points [-]

While I agree that you have to be careful about olive oil you buy in a supermarket, I am somewhat wary about the UC Davis results. My wariness is a function of two sentences. One is on the front page of http://olivecenter.ucdavis.edu/ -- it says "Enhancing the quality and economic viability of California table olives and olive oil" (emphasis mine). The second one is in the report and it says "We are grateful to Corto Olive, California Olive Ranch, and the California Olive Oil Council for their financial support of this research."

Also, an observation. EVOO ages. If you really want the freshest tastiest yummiest EVOO you need to buy it around December, a month or two after the harvest (the bottle should have the harvest date on it). If you take the same EVOO and try it after a year has passed, it will be different, certainly by taste. Note that it's still "true" EVOO -- no heating or adulteration or anything. It's just that time has passed.

To try real fresh EVOO buy a bottle of what's called Olio Nuovo and make sure it's not more than a couple of months after the harvest.

Comment author: niceguyanon 07 October 2013 08:18:57PM 0 points [-]

To try real fresh EVOO buy a bottle of what's called Olio Nuovo and make sure it's not more than a couple of months after the harvest.

This is now on my to do list.

Comment author: Lumifer 07 October 2013 08:32:01PM 1 point [-]

I am not sure about the calendar of California olive growers, but Italian olio nuovo is not available right now -- this year's harvest will arrive in late November or December. Look for it e.g. here or here.

Comment author: D_Malik 09 October 2013 07:10:49AM 1 point [-]

I'm pretty sure I've saved time on net by looking through http://www.reddit.com/r/LifeProTips/top?t=all

I think we need some sort of wiki page to list high-value practical advice, where people could e.g. look under "health" and they'd be directed to Shangri-La for weight-loss, or a list of what supplements they should take for general health, with direct Amazon links, or melatonin, red light, red glasses, sleep masks, etc. for sleeping better, and so on. (I am not going to create such a page.)

Comment author: cousin_it 07 October 2013 08:56:30PM *  2 points [-]

A decision theory idea I just had, which may or may not grow into something interesting.

Sometime ago I proposed to evaluate logical counterfactuals by their proof length. At the September workshop we managed to develop that idea into a full candidate solution to the problem of logical counterfactuals. Another long-standing open problem is "who moves first" in timeless negotiations. Could that problem also be solved by proof lengths? For example, do we feel that a "defecting rock" is impossible to manipulate because there are short proofs about it?

Comment author: Manfred 07 October 2013 11:14:33PM 1 point [-]

Hm. I feel like "impossible to manipulate" just means that you can prove that it will never cooperate when the opponent will defect.

But yeah, if we equate "acting first" with acting in ignorance of the other person's move, then we get something interesting.

Comment author: kvd 08 October 2013 01:55:08AM 1 point [-]

I'm currently in the US for a research internship (I'm from the Netherlands) and I'd like to travel a bit on the weekends while I'm here. At the moment I'm thinking of visiting Montreal (I've heard it's nice this time of year?) and New York in the near future. Does anyone have any travel recommendations? I could especially use recommendations for (cheap) places to stay overnight.

Note: I do not have a drivers license so will be depending on public transport.

Comment author: palladias 08 October 2013 05:55:55AM *  1 point [-]

Here are two options for cheap(er) theatre tickets in NYC:

Also, the Staten Island Ferry is free to ride, and gives you pretty views of the city from the water. Just be sure that when you land in Staten Island, you hurry through the terminal to reboard the boat immediately to go back. There's little to visit in Staten Island.

Comment author: kvd 09 October 2013 02:47:15AM 0 points [-]

Thanks! That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for!

Comment author: Andreas_Giger 08 October 2013 04:24:19AM 1 point [-]

There used to be a thread on LW that dealt with interesting ways to make small sums of money and ways to reduce expenditure. I think among other things going to Australia for a year was discussed. Does anyone know which thread I'm talking about and can provide me with the link? I can't seem to find it.

Comment author: banx 08 October 2013 05:05:32AM 4 points [-]

Here's Optimal Employment, where the working in Australia idea is discussed, and here's the Optimal Employment Open Thread.

Comment author: bramflakes 08 October 2013 08:34:50AM 5 points [-]

I spent about £19 on half a year's worth of 1mg Melatonin pills. I swallowed one last night at about 2300, then went to bed at midnight.

Thoughts:

I didn't notice any extra sleepiness during that hour interval between taking it and going to sleep. This may mean that melatonin as a solution to hyperbolic discounting may not work for me. Alternatively I just went to sleep too early and had I stayed awake, the melatonin would have kicked in and made me want to go to sleep anyway.

I woke up over an hour before my alarm, feeling /much/ more refreshed than usual, and with almost no desire to sleep in. If this was the work of melatonin then it will be very useful to me in stopping my habit of turning off my alarm and then going back to sleep again.;

Obviously, this was only one night, so things like placebo and random variation in effects are there. I'll continue with this experiment and take notes. I can't be bothered to do a blinding experiment like gwern did with his nootropics experiments, but given that the effects of melatonin are well-researched and that most people react the same way to it, I'm fairly confident the effects I'm getting are real. Even if it is a placebo, I'd still be satisfied with it given how much money I paid.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 08 October 2013 09:51:52AM 1 point [-]

I've been picking up bottles of 120 3mg pills off eBay for about £7 including P&P. FYI, in six month's time when you can't do without it.

Comment author: Metus 08 October 2013 02:01:09PM 1 point [-]

How can I mitigate dependence? I do it by using at most a week at a time.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 08 October 2013 02:36:38PM *  2 points [-]

Gwern's melatonin piece is probably your best first port of call on this (and many other) subjects. I've been taking it pretty regularly (most nights) for coming up to a year, and can still fall asleep without too much difficulty without it. "Without too much difficulty" is a bit of a relative term, though. I keep somewhat unusual hours and have had difficulty getting to sleep for as long as I can remember.

Comment author: ephion 08 October 2013 06:25:00PM 2 points [-]

It's not dependency in the same way that caffeine, alcohol, adderall, etc. cause dependency. Your baseline right now is "normal sleep" and when you take melatonin, you get "better sleep." Eventually, melatonin becomes "normal sleep" as you get used to it, and when you stop, you experience "bad sleep." However, you were having bad sleep beforehand, you just weren't aware as you didn't have anything to compare it to. Now that you've experienced better sleep, going back to bad sleep isn't really an option.

It's not that you become dependent. It's that you are dependent and aren't aware of it.

Comment author: Lumifer 08 October 2013 07:57:21PM *  0 points [-]

It's not dependency in the same way that caffeine, alcohol, adderall, etc. cause dependency.

Why not? Sure, we're talking psychological dependency, not metabolical dependency, but still

s/melantonin/cocaine/
s/sleep/energy/

and your argument still works exactly the same way.

Comment author: ephion 08 October 2013 08:19:42PM 3 points [-]

Cocaine and melatonin aren't really comparable. There are a lot of reasons why you wouldn't want to take cocaine, including price, legality, negative side effects, undesirable neurological changes, etc. Cocaine use also develops a tolerance and has withdrawal symptoms. On the other hand, melatonin is very cheap, usually legal, rarely has side effects, doesn't develop a tolerance, and doesn't have any withdrawal symptoms.

Pretending you can assign easy numbers to "sleep quality" and "energy level," my argument goes something like: Before melatonin, sleep quality was at 4. This is perceived as normal. After melatonin, sleep quality is perceived at 6. This is initially a +2 bonus, but eventually is perceived as normal. However, sleep quality doesn't ever go back to 4 -- it stays at the new 6. When melatonin is discontinued, sleep quality goes back to 4. It doesn't drop down to 2 for a while before returning to 4.

Cocaine doesn't work like that. When you take cocaine, you get an initial boost of energy, and then a crash. If you sustain an energy level with cocaine, you'll develop a tolerance, requiring more and more cocaine to achieve the same effects. This crashes your energy systems even harder and will present you with withdrawal symptoms if you try to stop. To put it to numbers, you'd have a 5 baseline. A dose of cocaine puts you at 10, and you crash at 2. If you use cocaine to get your energy level up from the crash, you're now dependent and developing a tolerance. When you try to stop cocaine use entirely, withdrawal symptoms put you at a 1 for quite some time, and you might never return to your previous 5 baseline.

Comment author: kalium 08 October 2013 08:14:17PM *  2 points [-]

A clearer phrasing of the question: Melatonin is important in my existing sleep processes. Does taking exogenous melatonin reduce my body's own production of the stuff to compensate, and if so how severe is this effect?

Comment author: ephion 08 October 2013 08:24:29PM *  2 points [-]

It doesn't appear to do that.:

In regards to supplementation, oral melatonin supplements at 500mcg over a period of a week in shift workers did not influence basal secretion, as cessation for one day prior to measurements did not show differences when compared to secretion status prior to supplementation.[24] 24-hour melatonin levels in this study, when graphed, essentially overlapped suggesting next to no variance.[24] These results indicating a lack of negative feedback have been replicated with 2mg[25] and 5mg.[26]

Good question! This is definitely an important thing to consider.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 08 October 2013 10:31:47PM 6 points [-]

One week is a trivial amount of time. I've been taking it for years and have had to slowly, steadily increase the dosage.

Comment author: ephion 08 October 2013 10:39:03PM 1 point [-]

Interesting! If you don't mind sharing, how much were you taking initially, and how much are you taking now?

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 08 October 2013 10:41:23PM 6 points [-]

300mcg initially. Currently at 200mcg to trigger sleep onset 6 hours before, 1.2mg timed-release, and a supplementary 300mcg timed-release or 200mcg if I wake up in the middle of the night.

Comment author: lavalamp 08 October 2013 11:56:09PM 3 points [-]

Do you have any evidence that the cause is not ordinary aging?

Comment author: JQuinton 08 October 2013 12:49:40PM 1 point [-]

I was taking melatonin for a while, but I kept having these weird/disturbing dreams whenever I took it, so I stopped. Are melatonin induced nightmares common?

Comment author: gwern 08 October 2013 04:32:36PM 2 points [-]

More vivid dreams is common, and for some people the dreams are nightmares. (Not for me, though.)

Comment author: curiousepic 08 October 2013 06:22:38PM 2 points [-]

I did have more vivid and "weirder" dreams, especially in the morning (perhaps memory bias), and a handful of them were quite disturbing, far from my norm. But, this lessened after a couple of weeks of off and on use.

Comment author: Nectanebo 09 October 2013 12:48:35PM 1 point [-]

This was also my experience.

Comment author: hyporational 10 October 2013 03:56:54PM 1 point [-]

I've had melatonin quite a while and still have far weirder dreams than before starting. Last night, I dreamt of having a generalized epileptic seizure while conscious. Luckily I can shrug nightmares off easily these days.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 08 October 2013 07:07:21PM 1 point [-]

I've been taking melatonin for a while. I haven't noticed any obvious improvement, but when I temporarily ran out of it and forgot to buy more for a few days, it felt like I slept worse. Might've been just a placebo effect, but then the pills are cheap and taking them feels like a nice evening ritual to do before going to bed, so I don't mind continuing it.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 08 October 2013 10:30:57PM 5 points [-]

1mg is hitting yourself over the head with a sledgehammer. Try 200mcg or 300mcg first!

Comment author: bramflakes 08 October 2013 11:01:25PM *  2 points [-]

Considering the most common dose I found on sale was about 3mg and they even went up to 10mg, I assumed 1mg was the low end.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 08 October 2013 11:45:26PM 11 points [-]

Nope. That's moderate Civilizational Incompetence; science knows well that 1mg is often way too much for a first dose, but shops have presumably found that the average customer thinks "More melatonin is better" and that informed customers are too scarce to market to. You can get correctly dosed melatonin on the Internet, as with any other niche market.

Comment author: somervta 09 October 2013 12:55:19AM 2 points [-]

Also, I think that at some point there was a patent or other legal issue - at some point (which might or might not still be an issue) a company managed to restrict the use of low-dosage melatonin (I'm afraid I don't recall the details)

Comment author: somervta 09 October 2013 01:01:34AM 0 points [-]

But you are of course absolutely correct about the Dose Response Curve.

Comment author: philh 09 October 2013 01:06:24AM *  1 point [-]

bramflakes is in the UK; you can't buy melatonin over the counter here, and I've done a small amount of searching and haven't found anywhere online that ships to the UK and sells <1mg.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 09 October 2013 09:27:15PM 3 points [-]
Comment author: philh 09 October 2013 11:10:04PM 3 points [-]

Thanks so much! I just ordered 600 tablets.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 09 October 2013 11:35:40PM 0 points [-]

Are you in the UK? If so, that's confirmation that they really (try to) ship there. Or are you just happy to find a smaller dose than before? (which is why I saved the link)

Comment author: philh 10 October 2013 01:08:44AM 1 point [-]

I'm in the UK, yes. (It's listed in their shipping chart, and the order went through with no problems, so I have no more than baseline expectation of it not arriving.)

Comment author: kvd 09 October 2013 02:45:26AM 3 points [-]

In the Netherlands you can get them as 0.1mg tablets in drug stores, which makes for easy dosing.

Interestingely enough, the package used to recommend a dose of 1 tablet, but has recently been updated and now recommends taking 10 tablets at a time!

Comment author: philh 09 October 2013 01:11:28AM 0 points [-]

If your melatonin comes in plastic capsules, like mine, you can twist them apart, discard some amount of the contents (I tend to roughly-fill the smaller of the two caps and throw the rest) and optionally put them back together, without too much hassle.

Comment author: somervta 09 October 2013 01:26:51AM 1 point [-]

I bite my pills into thirds.

Comment author: hyporational 10 October 2013 05:02:50PM 0 points [-]

I'm trying hard to imagine how that works.

Comment author: somervta 10 October 2013 10:41:15PM 1 point [-]

Take pill.

Bit a bit off.

Leave the rest for later.

it's not exact, of course, but it's not too tricky to get them in between 2/5 and 3/5.

Comment author: hyporational 10 October 2013 04:54:16PM *  0 points [-]

Maybe you should invest in a pill splitter.

Comment author: bbleeker 09 October 2013 06:09:12AM -1 points [-]

I've taken melatonin for a few months, and at the start I thought it did make me sleep better; but then I ran out of tablets one day and I didn't notice my sleep getting worse, so I stopped again.

Comment author: hyporational 10 October 2013 04:40:17PM *  0 points [-]

Were the pills slow release or normal? The difference in time to fall asleep could be significant.

Comment author: bramflakes 10 October 2013 05:30:07PM 0 points [-]

Normal.

Comment author: [deleted] 08 October 2013 09:44:17AM *  7 points [-]

Do you know why the age of consent for sex is 18? What would your sexual ethics be if it happened to have been raised to 21 not 18? Indeed this almost happened. Think about a wide array of questions, relationships, policies and norms you approve or disapprove of in light of this.

Even better, when you next time find yourself making judgements on them, try for a short time seeing them from the perspective of world-21-you instead of world-18-you. Applying the reversal test can be fun, but other people might not see it your way if you point it out.

Comment author: ChristianKl 08 October 2013 12:14:37PM *  9 points [-]

Do you know why the age of consent for sex is 18?

The age of consent differs over the world. Even within the US. Kansas has one of 16 while it's 18 in Florida.

According to Wikipedia Spain even has an age of consent of 13 (with some exceptions) and the government recently announced that it wants to raise it to 15.

I don't think my morals on sexuality would change much by living in Spain.

Comment author: [deleted] 08 October 2013 02:19:15PM *  4 points [-]

The age of consent differs over the world.

I know this of course, I live in Slovenia where it is 15. However nearly everyone here assume it is 18. I think this is because:

  • It is 18 in the most culturally important state in the world: California
  • People treat 18 as Schelling point for legal adulthood.

The second is probably why they people here are surprised the drinking age is 21 in much of the United States. 18, rather than the more traditional 21 (see Roman laws) likely exists as a Schelling point for legal rights, because during the 20th century men of that age where judged useful for military service, not because it was determined as the age where people generally become capable of making all decisions on their own behalf.

Comment author: ChristianKl 08 October 2013 03:50:06PM *  3 points [-]

The second is probably why they people here are surprised the drinking age is 21 in much of the United States. 18, rather than the more traditional 21 (see Roman laws) likely exists as a Schelling point for legal rights, because during the 20th century men of that age where judged useful for military service, not because it was determined as the age where people generally become capable of making all decisions on their own behalf.

Hitler started drafting people of age 22 when he reintroduced the draft in Germany. Later he drafted even people under 18.

I would rather think 18 it's the time where most people leave high school or the local equivalent and go to college or take a job. Taking a job means that you have to be able to make contracts while people act school don't have to make their own contracts.

Comment author: [deleted] 08 October 2013 05:51:51PM *  4 points [-]

Hitler's social order isn't the direct ancestor of our current social order.

British and Americans drafted at 18. British starting in WW1 as far as I can tell, Americans in WW2. The voting age in the United States was lowered for all states to 18 around the time of the Vietnam war (1971 to be exact), specifically on the notion it being unfair to draft 18 year old to fight in a war they couldn't vote on.

Comment author: ChristianKl 08 October 2013 07:29:24PM 3 points [-]

The US seems to have lowered it from 21 to 18 in 1942.

With googling I can't find easily when the US made 18 the year in which people can engage in contracts. But I think that's generally more central than voting and draft.

I would expect that age to be at 18 in the US before WWII.

Comment author: [deleted] 09 October 2013 07:23:25AM *  1 point [-]

But I think that's generally more central than voting and draft.

Maybe, I certainly think it matters more than voting. But I suspect voting carriers more symbolic weight in people's minds.

I would expect that age to be at 18 in the US before WWII.

This is an interesting question, If I have some time I'll check it out as well. Is there a lawyer who happens to know the answer here?

Comment author: Lumifer 08 October 2013 06:24:19PM 7 points [-]

Historically the first conscription in modern times was done by the French:

"Conscription in its modern form arose in revolutionary France, where universal military service was regarded both as a Republican duty, based on the principles of equality and fraternity, and as a necessity for national survival. In August 1793, a law limited liability for service to men between the ages of 18 and 25" (source)

In those times most people did not go to high school or the local equivalents.

Comment author: [deleted] 09 October 2013 04:35:35AM 0 points [-]

That's another example I thought of including in the post I've been thinking of writing but never got around to about what happens when the central example of a category for someone isn't the same as the central example of the same category for someone else.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 10 October 2013 03:27:13AM *  -1 points [-]

Is this the post you want to write?

Comment author: [deleted] 08 October 2013 02:28:24PM *  1 point [-]

I don't think my morals on sexuality would change much by living in Spain.

I bet they would. At least if you grew up in Spain. Though probably not because of this law.

Comment author: ChristianKl 08 October 2013 03:38:12PM 3 points [-]

I bet they would. At least if you grew up in Spain.

On what moral question do you predict I would have a much different opinion if I were from Spain?

Comment author: philh 08 October 2013 09:03:24PM 5 points [-]

If there is a question of sexual morality on which:

  • You grew up in a culture in which people tend to give one answer, which you agree with, and

  • People who grew up in Spain tend to give a different answer,

Then I think there's a reasonable chance that: in the counterfactual world in which your parents moved to Spain shortly before you were born, and you grew up there, you would give the Spanish answer instead of your current one.

Comment author: ChristianKl 08 October 2013 09:09:54PM *  2 points [-]

That's an obvious point.

I don't think such questions exist to the extend that the answer is much different.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 09 October 2013 11:31:39PM -1 points [-]

Is it usually wrong for two 13-year-olds to have sex with each other? What about a 16-year-old and a 13-year-old? 20 and 13?

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 October 2013 12:16:07AM 2 points [-]

In general I don't believe in a moral system where the central criteria of whether something is right or wrong gets decided by a straight rule.

What I do believe is wrong is when 16-year-old or a 20-year-old projects power in order to make the 13-year-old decide to have sex with them. Additionally I see responsibility to act afterwards in a way that the experience creates no emotional wounds or other damage.

Pregnancy would be damage because even if the 13-year-old gets an abortion getting a child killed inside himself leaves some emotional trauma. That means the older person would be responsible for seeing that the 13-year-old is on the pill and use condoms.

In practice I think there probably some level of wrongness in most cases where a 20-year-old has sex with a 13-year-old.

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 10 October 2013 08:19:42PM 3 points [-]

In practice I think there probably some level of wrongness in most cases where a 20-year-old has sex with a 13-year-old.

I suggest that, due to the anchoring effects of formal law, there exists some combination of ages such that you (and probably the average German) would say this and the average Spaniard, including hypothetical-you who grew up in Spain, would not. It may not be precisely 20 and 13, but I strongly suspect that such a pair of ages exists.

Comment author: [deleted] 09 October 2013 09:27:07AM 2 points [-]

To make a specific answer I would first have to know which country you are from and then check the social data on differences of opinion from Spain.

Comment author: ChristianKl 09 October 2013 11:11:22AM 2 points [-]

It's in my profile that I'm from Germany, specifically from Berlin. In case It helps you, I'm born here.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 08 October 2013 06:32:27PM 7 points [-]

I went to an early college program — a residential four-year college where most students entered at age 15 or 16, after two years of high school. This was in a state where the legal age of consent was (and is) 16. As a consequence, many sexual relationships among first-year students were illegal. However, they were also very common.

The culture at this institution was such that students were treated as "college students who happen to be two years younger", not as "gifted young teenagers who happen to be doing college-level academics". As such, the age-of-consent law was basically regarded as an inappropriate technicality. Students were cautioned about it, but along the lines of "Technically, if someone really wanted to hurt you, they could charge you with this ..."

So far as I know, the only time while I was there that anyone was even seriously threatened with legal charges over an "underage" relationship was one case where a freshman boy (age 15) cheated on his girlfriend with another guy (age 17). The girlfriend initially wanted to report this as "child abuse" but changed her mind before doing so.

Comment author: Desrtopa 09 October 2013 03:53:04AM *  4 points [-]

While I'm not particularly in favor of age-of-consent laws setting such high bars as they do in most states, I suspect that this particular environment selected for a significantly higher-than-average degree of emotional maturity for that age range.

I would suggest that our teens would be better off if adults would offer them guidance in how to handle sexual relations responsibly, given the exceptional potential they can hold for interpersonal strife, rather than simply declaring them off-limits until a certain age and then assuming they're mature enough to conduct themselves responsibly, except that it occurs to me that most adults probably aren't competent to offer good advice on the subject even if they were willing to discuss such matters with teenagers.

Comment author: [deleted] 09 October 2013 03:39:39PM 0 points [-]

I would suggest that our teens would be better off if adults would offer them guidance in how to handle sexual relations responsibly, given the exceptional potential they can hold for interpersonal strife, rather than simply declaring them off-limits until a certain age and then assuming they're mature enough to conduct themselves responsibly, except that it occurs to me that most adults probably aren't competent to offer good advice on the subject even if they were willing to discuss such matters with teenagers.

I once saw someone on the Internet proposing that ability to consent should be granted after an exam, rather than after a given age, much like we don't grant everyone who reaches a certain age a driving licence.

Comment author: shminux 09 October 2013 04:08:57PM 3 points [-]

If everyone had a built-in car automatically activated at puberty, there would be no driving tests, either.

Comment author: Desrtopa 09 October 2013 04:18:58PM 6 points [-]

I was going to dispute that, but you know, you're probably right. The death toll would be tremendous, but it wouldn't be the government's place to regulate people's god-given right to use the cars they were born with.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 09 October 2013 06:00:50PM 0 points [-]

Written exam, or practical?

Comment author: [deleted] 09 October 2013 06:31:24PM 0 points [-]

:-)

Oral (no pun intended!) IIRC.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 09 October 2013 08:29:23PM 0 points [-]

Yeah, I was carefully avoiding that one.

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 October 2013 11:20:46AM 3 points [-]

You want to make it easy for people to know whether another person has the legal ability to consent. If consent is about whether the person had taken an exam, it would be hard to know.

A twenty five year old woman who doesn't want to have sex before marriage for religious reasons could simply avoid taking the test. People who take the test before getting married could be expelled by the local church.

The proposal seems to give fundamental Christian's a ugly tool for charging people who engage in premartial sex with rape.

Comment author: [deleted] 10 October 2013 10:54:56PM *  2 points [-]

Actually it was written by a self-declared pedophile (who had chosen not to act upon his urges) who argued that arbitrarily young people should be allowed to consent to sex provided they demonstrably know what they're doing.

It must have been taken down, because I've found that blog but that post no longer seems to be there, and the blog is not on archive.org.

Comment author: Desrtopa 11 October 2013 04:10:42AM *  2 points [-]

You want to make it easy for people to know whether another person has the legal ability to consent. If consent is about whether the person had taken an exam, it would be hard to know.

Although you raise some compelling arguments against the proposition of an exam, I'll note that in cases in the vicinity of the borderline, legal ability to consent by age is already quite hard to judge; people rarely card prospective sex partners.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 09 October 2013 10:49:48PM 2 points [-]

I suspect that this particular environment selected for a significantly higher-than-average degree of emotional maturity for that age range.

The lore — I have no sources for this; it was word-of-mouth at the time — was that when psychologists had once tested the student body for emotional maturity, what they found was that entering students were no more mature than comparable teenagers, but that graduating students were as mature as other college graduates. IOW, it was believed to be not a selection process, but an "if you treat 'em like adults, they'll act like adults" process.

(Of course, this also neatly fits the institution's founding ideology, which was opposition to the sustained infantilization of mainstream schooling.)

Comment author: MrMind 10 October 2013 09:20:15AM *  4 points [-]

In Italy the age of consent is 14, it can go down to 13 if the partner is at max 15 years old, but it raises to 16 if the partner is a temporary or permanent authoritative figure, like a coach or a teacher.

18 is the limit at which it is allowed to publicly show or sell pictures/movies about that person naked or performing sexual acts.

I frankly feel that this is one of the very few cases where Italian laws get the facts right: thirteens would still (try to) have sex wether or not it was allowed.
I remember that I believed too that the age of consent was 18, and felt fine with it, so it was a little shock to discover that the limit was much lower. I later however got various data about how sexual expression/desire/maturity starts around that age (mine too, FWIW), so I reconsidered that this was indeed a case of a law just making common sense: you don't throw in jail a teenager just because of his/her natural impulses.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 10 October 2013 04:02:31PM 4 points [-]

you don't throw in jail a teenager just because of his/her natural impulses

Well, in the general case, of course you do... at least, if you throw them in jail at all. Adults, too. Most crimes are natural impulses, at least for people raised in a given culture; acts that we are neither naturally inclined to do nor explicitly taught to do tend not to be common enough to be worth the effort to pass laws against.

With respect to age of consent laws in particular, I would say there's more than one relevant age threshold if we're going to bother regulating this stuff by age at all; a typical thirteen-year-old is not equivalent to a typical 17-year-old, but neither is s/he equivalent to a typical 9-year-old.

I would also say that the kind of relationship matters more to capacity for consent than age, though I understand the "bright line" reasons for using the latter.

Comment author: MrMind 11 October 2013 08:36:04AM 0 points [-]

acts that we are neither naturally inclined to do nor explicitly taught to do tend not to be common enough to be worth the effort to pass laws against.

So would you say that murder is either: 1) a natural inclination of human being; 2) explicitly taught; 3) not regulated by the law.

3 is clearly not the case, so I'm curious to know what would you pick between 1 and 2.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 11 October 2013 02:56:47PM 6 points [-]

Murder is very much a natural inclination of humans.

It sounds like you disagree with this claim; can you say more about why? (I'm willing to defend it, but right now I feel like someone has incredulously said to me "Wait, you're saying humans consume organic matter for fuel?"... I don't know where to start addressing your disagreement.)

There are also contexts in which killing people is explicitly taught, but they are relatively rare and we tend not to label them "murder" and they tend to be legal.

Comment author: Lumifer 11 October 2013 03:23:17PM 3 points [-]

I guess one question is what do you mean by "natural inclination".

Humans are clearly capable of murder. They also, clearly, engage in it quite rarely (regardless of the degree of law & order around, I might add). Evolutionary speaking, the capability to murder is beneficial, but needs very strong constraints on it -- a tendency to murder those (of your species) around you is likely to wash out of the population pretty quickly.

So yes, there is a biologically hardwired ability to murder, but there are also hardwired brakes on it. These brakes are pretty powerful.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 11 October 2013 05:33:34PM 0 points [-]

Yes, I would agree with all of this.

Comment author: MrMind 11 October 2013 04:59:22PM 1 point [-]

Murder is very much a natural inclination of humans.

Then it is very possible that we intend with "natural inclination" wildly different things.
I see "natural inclination" as whatever innate impulse is strongly present almost universally in humans, such that not meeting it creates a sense of urgency and/or frustration: eating, company, sex, etc.
That's why what you say feels to me like "Of course humans eat truck tires for breakfast!" :)
Do you (I hope) intend something much less... coercive.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 11 October 2013 05:25:07PM 5 points [-]

Barring the socializing influences of culture, I expect typical humans to intermittently experience urges to eat, to socialize, to have sex with each other, and to kill each other.

I also expect that every successful human culture has established cultural norms that govern those urges so that they don't become too dangerous to the group. Consequently we mostly don't go around eating whatever we want, having sex with whoever we want, or killing whoever we want... instead, we follow social rules that govern what and when and how it's OK to do those things.

In some cases we internalize such rules and adopt them as values of our own ("I respect the property rights of others and will therefore not eat food that isn't mine", "I respect the bodily autonomy of others and will therefore not have sex with them unless the desire is mutual," "I respect the social rules that govern acceptable sex partners and will therefore not have sex with socially unacceptable partners whether or not the desire is mutual", "I respect the lives of others and will therefore not kill them even when they deserve it," etc.). In other cases we don't internalize them, but we follow them because it's more practical to do so.

That doesn't mean the impulse isn't there.

That having been said... I would agree that the sense of urgency that arises from, for example, not eating for a day is very different from the sense of urgency that arises from, for example, not murdering someone who violates me.

But I would also say that the sense of urgency that arises from not having sex with someone really attractive is not very much like either of those, and more like the latter than the former.

Comment author: Nornagest 11 October 2013 06:22:31PM *  2 points [-]

Murder is very much a natural inclination of humans.

I don't think this is true, for most values of "natural inclination".

Indications are that it's very hard to reliably convince people to kill. First-world militaries base quite a bit of their training methods and tactics on working around this; training reforms suggested by S.L.A. Marshall and contemporaries took the US Army from about 25% of front-line soldiers firing their weapons in WWII (!) to a ratio of around 55% in the Korean War, and near 90% by Vietnam. But modern tactics still lean quite heavily on indirect fire and other less personal methods of killing enemies.

Even more tellingly, research into PTSD and related conditions seems to point to a stronger link with responsibility for violence than with exposure to personal danger. Granted, shooting strangers in warfare is rather different from, say, knifing someone in a bar fight; but the evidence seems to suggest that people without sociopathic traits need to overcome substantial psychological barriers before killing's considered as an option.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 11 October 2013 06:37:18PM 1 point [-]

Yes, I would expect that most people need to overcome substantial psychological barriers before they are willing to kill someone, especially before they are willing to kill complete strangers. If that is inconsistent with something being a natural inclination, well, OK, then I'll agree that murder isn't a natural inclination.

As you suggest in your first sentence, this has more to do with the meaning of "natural inclination" than with anything related to my original point.

Trying to get away from the purely semantic issue... do you disagree with any of this? If so, what?

Comment author: Ishaan 11 October 2013 07:20:40PM *  2 points [-]

This will inevitability turn into a nature/nurture discussion about what is and is not natural. Let's dissolve it.

Most humans instinctively understand how to inflict harm, possess emotions that can trigger violence under certain conditions, and also have an innate desire to prevent harm from occurring.

Cultural mechanisms can prevent the conditions of murder. Cultural mechanisms can also override the instinct of harm avoidance so that murder can be more easily committed.

Comment author: Lumifer 11 October 2013 03:28:11PM 2 points [-]

Most crimes are natural impulses

No, most crimes have "natural" motivations. If you, say, plan and execute a bank robbery that's not an impulse.

acts that we are neither naturally inclined to do

Most acts are instrumental -- you do them to reach a goal, not because you're "naturally inclined" to do them just so.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 11 October 2013 05:31:40PM *  4 points [-]

I'm pretty sure MrMind would class two teenagers lying to their parents about where they're going to be and finding somewhere private to have sex as obeying precisely the sort of "natural impulses" referenced in their post. And, yes, agreed, most of the acts involved are entirely instrumental.

I would class that as the same kind of planning demonstrated by a bank robber (although one hopes that successful bank robbers require more sophisticated planning skills).

If you would say neither of those are "natural impulses" because they require instrumental planning, that's fine, I won't argue with you... I'm talking about the thing MrMind is talking about, and using their langauge to refer to it, but if y'all can agree on a different word to use I'll happily use that word instead.

Semantics aside, if there's an actual disagreement here, can you say more about what it is?

Comment author: Lumifer 11 October 2013 07:23:01PM 0 points [-]

Well, I do agree with you that people are certainly thrown in jail because of their "natural impulses" -- not all crimes are like that, but some are.

However the remainder of that paragraph ("Most crimes are natural impulses...") makes no sense to me at all, I think it's wrong because you're completely ignoring instrumentality. Consider a trivial example: running a red light. Are people naturally inclined to do that? No, I don't think so. Are they explicitly taught to do that? Nope. But is it common? Fairly common, I'd say and there are certainly laws against it.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 11 October 2013 07:57:50PM 2 points [-]

(nods) Thanks for answering my question.

As I say, I certainly agree that most of the acts people perform, whether criminal or not, are instrumental rather than... um... whatever the alternative is. (Reflexive? Instinctive?)

And yes, I guess you're right that I'm ignoring that fact... precisely because it seems irrelevant to me.

Similarly, I'm happy to say that eating is a natural impulse. If someone objected that the overwhelming majority of the actions we perform in order to satisfy that impulse are instrumental and deliberate, I would certainly agree that this is true, but would find it strange to conclude that eating was therefore not a natural impulse. Instrumentality of acts just seems entirely beside the point.

Your position makes more sense to me as applied to running red lights, though. My (natural?) inclination is to extend the same reasoning to that case as well but I can definitely appreciate the criticism that at this point I'm just being metaphorical and could just as easily classify anything as "natural," and I'll accept that I over-reached with my original claim. People don't run red lights in the wild.

But murder? Rape? Battery? Nah, in response to certain stimuli these are as natural as eating and having sex. The psychological and social structures we've constructed to prevent those stimuli from arising, and to prevent us from responding with those impulses when the stimuli do arise, and to prevent us from implementing those impulses when we do experience them... those structures are wonderful things, and in many contexts they enable us to do much much better than our natural impulses would lead us to do... but to therefore claim that those impulses don't exist just seems bizarre to me.

I wonder whether what's underlying the inferential gap here is some unstated assumptions relating to the moral implications of something being a natural impulse. Does it help at all if I say out loud that many of our natural impulses are utterly abhorrent?

Comment author: Lumifer 11 October 2013 08:11:51PM 2 points [-]

I think the word "impulse" is providing more confusion here than light.

I'm happy to say that eating is a natural impulse

Let's unpack. You have a biologically hardwired desire/instinct to eat. That provides you with a "natural" goal that you may reach through a variety of instrumental ways. Some of them are more acceptable (either from a psychological or from a cultural standpoint), some of them less.

Similarly, there is a desire/instinct to, say, have sex. That, however, doesn't make rape "natural" as what's "natural" is desire, not a particular way to satisfy it. There are ways to have sex other than through rape -- just as there are ways to eat other than by stealing food and ways to assert dominance other than by punching someone in the face. That's why distinguishing between the underlying desire and the specific way chosen to satisfy it is important.

many of our natural impulses are utterly abhorrent?

No, I don't think so. Do you have any particular examples?

Comment author: TheOtherDave 11 October 2013 11:41:39PM 1 point [-]

OK.

So going back to the OP I responded to... when two 14 year olds have sex, is that a specific way, or an underlying desire?

When the OP says it's common sense not to imprison teenagers "just because of his/her natural impulses", is it referring to specific ways, or underlying desires?

Comment author: hyporational 10 October 2013 03:03:45PM *  0 points [-]

Probabilistically your question makes sense. It doesn't make much sense if I think about my personal experience. I don't think my ethics are determined by the law and I don't give much thought to it when thinking about right and wrong. Then again, I know myself imperfectly. My mom was generally obeying the law and my dad was breaking it. I learned from both of them.

In Finland, the age of consent is 16. I disagree with it, but don't really care to elaborate how. I find it really hard to be judgemental about sex.

Comment author: Ishaan 11 October 2013 06:36:54PM *  -1 points [-]

I'm going to come at this from descriptive ethics, rather than a prescriptive ethics, because I find that more interesting for this particular case.

The popularly termed "age creepiness rule" (don't date under age/2+7) appears to be a weirdly accurate reflection of what most OKCupid men proclaim is reasonable (see: male chart, youngest allowable match) and this is despite the human male inclination towards choosing younger mates (as okcupid shows, actual messaging rates differ from declared values)

Let's just suppose that outwardly stated preferences on OKCupid mimic (at the very least) the moral intuitions of Western men, and that the "age creepiness equation" is not well known enough to actually alter anything.

What would we predict about our laws, given age/2+7?

14=14/2+7

Making 14 the age at which people can start exploring sex without violating the equation.

18=22/2+7

Making 22 the age at which it is inappropriate to have sex with anyone under 18.

Another equation conforming pair which seems to correspond to legally important ages: 16 & 18.

Does this information hold any predictive value for how nations tend to make laws? Does the equation change based on cultural variables? Do you think that the equation reflects anything important about human maturity levels? Does it reflect anything about which behavior would be adaptive ancestrally? Does the equation makes sense from a proscriptive ethics perspective?

My answer to these is generally "yes" with increasing uncertainty and qualifying for each successive question.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 12 October 2013 05:05:42AM 0 points [-]

I'd be weary of applying these kinds of "rules of thumb" at extreme ends of the scale.

Comment author: Ishaan 12 October 2013 06:06:35AM *  0 points [-]

I was less "applying" and more observing the way this "rule of thumb" conforms to many people's moral intuitions, and its possible implications. I'm not denying that at the older ends of the scale there comes a point at which increasing age does not mean decreasing vulnerability to exploitation. For example, I wouldn't say 35 and 55 is an immoral pairing, despite violating the equation.

Comment author: [deleted] 08 October 2013 02:34:32PM *  5 points [-]

Why haven't we done an systematic investigation of drugs as means towards debiasing?

I recall some limited discussion of nootropics and microdosing on LSD but not much else. In particular I'm thinking about substances that are easily acquired such as off label use of medication, easy to synthesize substances or recreational drugs (legal and otherwise).

Comment author: shminux 08 October 2013 02:52:27PM 4 points [-]

There was a lively "spray cold water into your left ear for debiasing purposes" discussion.

Comment author: [deleted] 09 October 2013 07:27:36AM 2 points [-]

Remembering how extensive that was compared to the under-exploration of the means I propose makes me cringe. Also on IRC someone corrected me LSD microdosing wasn't even discussed on LW but Yvain's blog apparently.

Comment author: [deleted] 08 October 2013 03:01:05PM 2 points [-]

Ritalin is pretty helpful for me (when I can get it) against akrasia. Dunno about bias.

Comment author: ygert 09 October 2013 08:40:13AM 2 points [-]

Also, of course, caffeine. These example prove that it is possible in theory, and as such they strongly prompt the notion that this is a field that has not yet been fully plumbed.

Comment author: wedrifid 09 October 2013 10:22:58AM 1 point [-]

Why haven't we done an systematic investigation of drugs as means towards debiasing?

I have focussed my attention more on enhancing cognitive function more generally, which has some benefits with respect to debiasing but is far from explicitly targetted. There are some specific behavioural and psychological biases that I can target pharmaceutically but not all of them, not without combining drugs with training. Of course there is much that can be done to enhance the executive function, motivation and relaxed self awareness that makes training oneself out of biases much more viable.

Comment author: hyporational 10 October 2013 04:07:17PM *  0 points [-]

By systematic investigation do you mean a literature review? I hope so. Does such literature even exist, have you done any searches?

I have to take SSRIs to stay sane, but they blunt my emotions (which is usual) and kill my motivation. This has to affect my biases in some way. Then again depression would make me ridiculously biased. Nicotine and caffeine seem to make me overconfident, but help me to get things done.

Comment author: Metus 08 October 2013 06:03:21PM 1 point [-]

Cautiously playing around with supplements I found melatonin to be effective in aiding sleep quality, though not with time to fall asleep. Any suggestions to that effect?

I want to try vitamin D3 in the morning before my coffee or green tea. Any suggestions for specific brands?

Comment author: ephion 08 October 2013 06:41:30PM 1 point [-]

That's very interesting -- I noticed the exact opposite effect. Melatonin helps me fall asleep faster, but sleep quality doesn't appear to be much better. I did notice an improvement in sleep quality with ZMA (zinc+magnesium+vitamin B6), and the melatonin+ZMA combo works wonders for sleep.

I've not noticed a difference with generic Kroger brand and other brands of Vitamin D3. Seems to be about the same effect. 5,000IU and 10,000IU aren't noticeably different in my experience, but either are a marked improvement over no supplementation.

Comment author: VincentYu 08 October 2013 06:47:06PM 1 point [-]

Cautiously playing around with supplements I found melatonin to be effective in aiding sleep quality, though not with time to fall asleep. Any suggestions to that effect?

Have you tried taking melatonin sublingually? The rapid absorption leads to a faster onset of sleepiness, which might help (I get extremely sleepy about 10 minutes after sublingual administration). Sublingual melatonin tablets can be found on Amazon.

Comment author: Lumifer 08 October 2013 07:51:57PM 2 points [-]

I was under the impression that vitamin D is absorbed much better if taken together with fats or oils. I would take it with food, not on an empty stomach.

Comment author: jaibot 08 October 2013 09:18:15PM 17 points [-]

The Brain Preservation Foundation has (finally) started evaluating their first candidate brain!

"Update: We've begun our 1st X-ray microscope imaging of our 1st competitor-submitted chemopreserved mouse brain! (Shawn Mikula, Denk Lab) :)" - Oct 1

Comment author: cadac 08 October 2013 10:37:30PM 4 points [-]

I can't seem to change my password. It's 41 characters long (I don't know why I thought that was a good idea), which might have something to do with it. I've tried multiple times, and every time it says "Incorrect password" next to the "Current password" field. Any tips?

Comment author: ChristianKl 08 October 2013 11:01:57PM 5 points [-]

What happens when you tell it that you forgot your password. Many system respond by sending you an email with allows you to set a new password.

Comment author: cadac 08 October 2013 11:31:41PM 1 point [-]

Thanks, that hadn't occurred to me. It says "No email address for that user". I can't set an email address either.

Comment author: philh 09 October 2013 01:01:23AM 4 points [-]

This is unlikely (p<0.05) to help in this case, but sometimes client-side validation is stricter than server-side. I recently had to disable the max-length on a text entry box so that I could enter the reference number I'd been given (but I checked and there isn't a max-length on the old password box here); another time I had to disable javascript so that I could use an email address with a + that had been accepted before.

Comment author: Metus 09 October 2013 12:25:30PM 1 point [-]

I am not particularly interested in the answer to this question but this community's answer: I know English and German. Should I learn another language and if yes which? Please explain your reasoning.

Comment author: Emily 09 October 2013 01:26:27PM 8 points [-]

I think this is probably really hard to answer sensibly without some more information about you and your goals.

Comment author: MrMind 10 October 2013 09:40:44AM 0 points [-]

Agreed.

Chinese seems to be a good general choice, just because so many people on the planet speak it and because China is/will be an important actor in the global theater.

In spite of this, I'm studying japanese just because it's at the crossroads of three things I find supremely fascinating: go, anime/mangas, and japanese culture (with the implicit plan of a trip to Japan in the near future).

Other examples: if you think you'll have to deal with european beureaucracy, French might be a good choice, or Spanish if you want to have anything to do with dancing, etc.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 09 October 2013 01:43:18PM 4 points [-]

For people who spend a lot of time in the United States I often recommend learning enough Spanish to curse plausibly, make casual smalltalk, ask for directions, and order lunch in, because it's not rare to find communities here where doing so gets you marked as an insider, or at least a potential ally, with all the associated benefits of that marking.

Comment author: ChristianKl 09 October 2013 04:17:19PM 1 point [-]

If you don't have a need for learning a specific language then I think that you should put your learning efforts elsewhere.

There are many areas where effort gets higher returns.

Comment author: Emile 09 October 2013 04:26:11PM *  4 points [-]

I like learning languages (Esperanto, German, Chinese, Japanese), but consider it as more of a hobby than a useful skill, unless you're planning to move abroad, or have a job that involves a lot of travelling, or marry someone from there.

More useful than video games, reading fiction, surfing on reddit, playing chess.

Less useful (marketable) than programming, self-marketing, public speaking, fixing up your house, negotiating a salary, driving a car, fixing a car...

Probably about as useful as drawing, or doing advanced maths.

Comment author: Desrtopa 09 October 2013 04:30:15PM 0 points [-]

What exactly do you mean by "marketing" in this context? Marketing in a business sense is not something I'm familiar with people learning as a self-taught skill, and I'm not sure how seriously employers would take it, but self-marketing as a general skill is broad enough to seem like the odd one out among those options.

Comment author: Emile 09 October 2013 04:44:17PM 0 points [-]

self-marketing then. Why would it be the odd one out, that one is the list of useful things.

Comment author: Desrtopa 09 October 2013 04:59:55PM 0 points [-]

I'm not disputing that it's useful, but it's like seeing a list of "fun" things which includes "watching videos," "playing solitaire," and "doing things with friends." One is so much broader than the others that it could easily be separated out into useful subcategories and take up more space than the rest of the list.

Comment author: Dorikka 11 October 2013 05:57:56PM 0 points [-]

I am not particularly interested in the answer to this question but this community's answer:

I am curious what you mean by this. If someone/we find a more optimal solution, we should adopt it, no?

Comment author: Metus 11 October 2013 10:08:46PM 0 points [-]

I wanted to indicate that it is not very important for me to know what language I should learn if any at all as I already have a particular interest in some languages but that I am curious about how this community would go about answering this question which rises up from time to time with various answers.

Comment author: JoshuaFox 09 October 2013 12:38:38PM 2 points [-]

Nikola Danaylov interviewed Noam Chomsky on his Singularity 1 on 1 podcast.

Chomsky is smart, but in discussing the future of AI, he is stuck on something -- he never quite steps up to answer the questions.

Can someone figure out the nature of Chomsky's mental block? What is he missing here?

Comment author: shminux 09 October 2013 04:47:15PM -1 points [-]

Is there a transcript of the interview somewhere? The youtube auto-generated one mangles Chomsky's replies horribly.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 09 October 2013 04:49:38PM 1 point [-]

I think his problem is he assumes an AI has to closely resemble a human mind to be powerful enough to be dangerous.

Comment author: savanik 09 October 2013 07:47:13PM 3 points [-]

I've been thinking about this statement in particular: 'If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide.' People naturally seem to gravitate to the logical contraposition: If P, then Q. Therefore if !Q, then !P. If you have something to hide, then you MUST have done something wrong. Drawing from this logical statement, they infer that anyone who even tries to hide anything MUST be doing something wrong.

It seems obvious to me, however, that not all people who attempt to hide things have done something wrong. Where is the logical error? Is it in the inversion of 'nothing' and 'something'? It's been a long time since my symbolic logic courses involving the negation of universal quantification.

Comment author: Lumifer 09 October 2013 08:03:06PM *  2 points [-]

Um, the statement "If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide" is wrong to start with.

EDIT: Deleted the mistaken part of the post -- was reading too fast and screwed up the formal logic counter-example. Mea culpa

Comment author: Emile 09 October 2013 08:16:55PM 3 points [-]

If P, then Q. Therefore if !Q, then !P.

...this is quite wrong as well. E.g. If you are a man, you're a human. Therefore if you're not a man you're not a human :-P

No, it would be "Therefore if you're not a human you're not a man", which does follow. The formal logic is fine.

Comment author: Emile 09 October 2013 08:20:11PM *  8 points [-]

If you disagree with "anyone who even tries to hide anything MUST be doing something wrong.", then you disagree with it's logically equivalent contraposition 'If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide.'. And indeed you do, you say there are people who've done nothing wrong but do have something to hide. There's no logical error, you just disagree with a premise.

Comment author: savanik 10 October 2013 05:20:43PM 1 point [-]

It's not so much a matter of disagreement as being able to come up with solid counterexamples that a theoretical 'common person' would agree with.

For instance: If you want to get someone a gift for a birthday, it is a common social convention that the exact gift should be kept a secret from the receiver until their birthday.

As ChristianKI indicated, sometimes you must keep secrets either for social or professional obligations. A good example would be where doctors are required to keep patient records from unauthorized access (by law, no less).

Normally, people dismiss these sorts of arguments with a simple, 'Well, of course except for that.' As we move into the future, however, where technology increases to the point where surveillence is pervasive, is the only privacy we're going to have remaining going to occur in doctor's offices?

Comment author: Emile 10 October 2013 08:25:53PM *  8 points [-]

Oh, I thought your main concern was about the logic, not the propositions.

Cases where you done nothing wrong yet have something to hide:

  • The bathroom window of my house doesn't close well, just push the top from outsides and it'll come open. Also I'm on holidays the first two weeks of November.
  • Harry Potter dies in the next HPMOR chapter
  • I'm actually really desperate for this job and would actually accept half the salary I'm asking for
  • I actually find your conversation extremely boring
Comment author: ChristianKl 11 October 2013 12:39:01AM 1 point [-]

Normally, people dismiss these sorts of arguments with a simple, 'Well, of course except for that.'

I don't think it's that easy. I want the right to take note about secrets that my friends tell me in my evernote account. I want to be able to take those notes without violating a promise that I gave my friend to keep his secret.

Let's say Alice confines her friends Bob and Coral that she has a drug problem. She's a cocaine addict. She gets them to promise to keep the information secret. In the current situation the two would violate that promise if they would talk about the problem on the telephone.

I think you could argue that there an implicit demand for that secrecy even if Alice doesn't specifically ask for secrecy.

Communicating the information on an unencrypted channel is morally questionable. Bob is not allowed to just call Alice and ask her whether she succeeded in being clean for the last days.

Bob has the choice between, establishing an encrypted channel to talk to Alice, not help her by providing social support on the issue over the telephone or violating his secrecy promise. If Alice wants to get a security clearance for her job she might be out of luck if the conversation with Bob is captured by government computers.

When talking about people who claim they have nothing to hide, I think that's the best strategy. Showing them how they potentially hurt other people or at least break promises they make to other people.

Comment author: [deleted] 09 October 2013 08:27:57PM *  2 points [-]

I think the question is poorly formulated. If you say:

P: you have done something wrong

Q: you have a reason to hide something

P->Q: If you have done something wrong, then you have a reason to hide something

!Q->!P: If you do not have a reason to hide something, then you have not done something wrong

Which seems quite consistent to me, as it makes it possible to have a reason to hide something without having done something wrong. The negations of the original are throwing me, and I think the if-then phrase might be backwards as the causality should be doing something wrong causes you to have something to hide, rather than the reverse. My logic course was long enough ago that I can't pin it exactly.

Comment author: Vaniver 10 October 2013 03:34:22AM 5 points [-]

Note the difference between "If you don't have a reason to hide something, then you have done nothing wrong" and "if you have done nothing wrong, then you don't have a reason to hide something." A person who is totally open has no skeletons in their closet- but the fetishist has something in his closet that isn't skeletons (unless it's skeletons).

Comment author: fubarobfusco 10 October 2013 03:47:22AM 9 points [-]

Part of the problem turns out to be equivocation on "wrong". Consider the position of a chocolate-lover living in a hypothetical society where 1% of people are chocolate-lovers, 89% of people are not chocolate-lovers but are tolerant of people who are, and 10% of people think that anyone who eats chocolate should be shunned, persecuted, fired, exiled, tortured, or what-have-you.

Eating chocolate is not wrong according to our standards, nor by their own, nor by those of the majority of their society. However, many chocolate-eaters in this hypothetical society would prefer to cover up their actions, not out of shame but out of risk avoidance. They don't want to be mistreated by the anti-chocolate people who outnumber them ten to one. In the 1 in 10 chance that their boss is anti-chocolate, they don't want to be fired or mistreated on the job. And so on.

In effect, the saying should be, "If you haven't done anything that anyone anywhere disapproves of, you have nothing to hide."

Comment author: ChristianKl 10 October 2013 11:03:35AM *  2 points [-]

This assumes that there are two categories of things: Right and wrong. In real life that's not the case. If someone tries to judge us their is information that makes him think very highly of us and information that positive but doesn't have such a big impact. If you can control that someone only get's to see the information that makes you look really awesome you achieved something by hiding the information that makes you look medicore.

Nothing you have done needs to be below some threshold that makes it wrong for you to have an advantage by hiding the worst things that you did. As the quality of the things you did naturally fluctuates there will always be worst things.

You could also have done something that a AI that analyses your habits likely pattern matches as suspicious. Given modern technology that means that you will less likely get a good rate when you want to get your mortgage.

Government can also give you trouble with extra inspections when you pattern match to be a dangerous person. It's not directly punishment but when you run a restaurant and you get more food safety inspections than your competitors because you pattern match to be a dangerous person it still hurts you.

If you fly the TSA will bug you if you score highly on some metric. An AI analyses all communication data and those people who look suspicious will get flagged for extra scrutiny.

In our society we also have a concept that it's okay to speak with friends in confidence. If you tell a friend that you protect a secret that he tells you, you have something to hide. I don't think anyone would argue that it's morally wrong to promise a friend that you will protect a secret he tells you.

If someone asks you whether you are feeling alright, you might not want to talk about a problem that you are facing with that person and hide the problem from them. That in no way implies that you think having the problem is "wrong" it just means that you don't think that you will profit from discussing the problem with them.

If you made a new invention and haven't yet patented it, you might want to hide that invention for some time till you are ready to bring the invention to market or patent it. Businesses also have various other forms of trade secrets that they hide. Most busineses don't want to give a competitor their customer list.

If you are in a negotiation having more information than the other party can give you an advantage. As a result you don't profit from sharing all information with them.

If you follow TDT you have to hide certain information, because otherwise someone could infer from the fact that you don't talk about an issue that you feel badly about the issue. You don't want that political dissidents, who share your views, can be distinguished by a government from yourself, because you don't want that the government has the power to go after every political dissident.

Comment author: MrMind 10 October 2013 09:47:44AM *  5 points [-]

Is there a sentence or a word for an English-speaker to express this concept: a thing that is supposedly a secret, but everyone knows it, but still behave as if it were a secret?
Since there's a precise term in Italian for that, I was recently wondering that I wouldn't know how to express that concisely in English.

Comment author: Khoth 10 October 2013 10:03:17AM 12 points [-]

"open secret"

Comment author: JQuinton 10 October 2013 07:33:20PM 2 points [-]

Curious... what is the term for that in Italian?

Comment author: Emile 10 October 2013 08:07:27PM 5 points [-]

"Segreto di Pulcinella" (the French, "secret de Polichinelle", is the same)

Comment author: jkaufman 10 October 2013 04:56:19PM 1 point [-]

"I am convinced, from many experiments, I could not study, to any degree of perfection, either mathematics, arithmetic, or algebra, without being a Deist, if not an Atheist" -- John Wesley founder of Methodism.

Not sure what to make of this.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 10 October 2013 06:16:39PM *  6 points [-]

It's from a sermon in which Wesley advocates that Christian should "gain all you can", "save all you can", and "give all you can" — a teaching somewhat similar to efficient altruism. Wesley has slightly different priorities, though: he emphasizes providing for the local community first rather than distant humans.

The line you quote comes from the provisos he puts around "gain all you can" — in gist, don't earn money at the expense of your bodily or mental health or your neighbor's well-being.

Some context for the quote:

We are, Secondly, to gain all we can without hurting our mind [...]. We must preserve, at all events, the spirit of an healthful mind. [...] There are yet [other trades] which many pursue with perfect innocence, without hurting either their body or mind; And yet perhaps you cannot: Either they may entangle you in that company which would destroy your soul; and by repeated experiments it may appear that you cannot separate the one from the other; or there may be an idiosyncrasy, — a peculiarity in your constitution of soul, [...] by reason whereof that employment is deadly to you, which another may safely follow. So I am convinced, from many experiments, I could not study, to any degree of perfection, either mathematics, arithmetic, or algebra, without being a Deist, if not an Atheist: And yet others may study them all their lives without sustaining any inconvenience. None therefore can here determine for another; but every man must judge for himself, and abstain from whatever he in particular finds to be hurtful to his soul.

The key is the use of the word "experiments". Wesley is saying that he found that studying mathematics would "entangle [him] in that company which would destroy [his] soul" — that is, the company of deistic and atheistic mathematicians — and that he could not separate mathematical studies from association with those (to his view) corrupting influences.

Comment author: Emile 10 October 2013 08:12:50PM 0 points [-]

It's from a sermon in which Wesley advocates that Christian should "gain all you can", "save all you can", and "give all you can" — a teaching somewhat similar to efficient altruism.

doesn't look very similar to me - it's missing the "efficient" part; focusing on "how much do you give?" instead of "is it doing any fricking good?"

Comment author: Quinn 10 October 2013 09:52:08PM 3 points [-]

While you're certainly technically correct, it's an easy/common mistake for people to focus on the "save all you can" part, overlooking "gain all you can" opportunities. The EA movement is notable for proactively trying to counter this mistake, and apparently so is John Wesley.

Comment author: Vaniver 11 October 2013 03:21:38PM *  3 points [-]

doesn't look very similar to me - it's missing the "efficient" part; focusing on "how much do you give?" instead of "is it doing any fricking good?"

The closer analog is 80,000 hours, not EA as a whole.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 11 October 2013 06:37:03PM 1 point [-]

Good point — that is indeed what I was thinking of.

Comment author: [deleted] 11 October 2013 09:06:42AM 5 points [-]

Conway Hall Ethical Society has an interesting history, which shows the Christian origins of Progressive Secular Humanist memeplex.

The Conway Hall Ethical Society, formerly the South Place Ethical Society, based in London at Conway Hall, is thought to be the oldest surviving freethought organisation in the world, and is the only remaining ethical society in the United Kingdom. It now advocates secular humanism and is a member of the International Humanist and Ethical Union.

...

The Society was formed in 1793 by a group of nonconformists known as Philadelphians or Universalists. William Johnson Fox, who had studied theology under Dr Pye Smith, became minister in 1817. In 1824 the congregation built a chapel at South Place, in the district of central London known as Finsbury

Conway Hall is named after an American, Moncure Conway, who led the Society from 1864–1885 and 1892–1897, during which time it moved further away from Unitarianism. Conway spent the break in his tenure in the United States, writing a biography of Thomas Paine. In 1888 the name of the Society was changed from South Place Religious Society to South Place Ethical Society (SPES) under Stanton Coit's leadership.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 11 October 2013 06:35:21PM 1 point [-]

the Christian origins

As opposed to, say, its Jewish origins in the Ethical Culture movement, or its academic philosophical origins in the Scottish Enlightenment?

(I think it's usually an error to talk about "the origins" of a current memeplex — they usually develop from several origins.)

Comment author: jaibot 11 October 2013 10:01:05AM 4 points [-]

Civilizational competence: Biologists discover deadly new strain of Botulinum Toxin, withhold details until treatment is developed.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/10/11/230957188/why-scientists-held-back-details-on-a-unique-botulinum-toxin

Comment author: [deleted] 11 October 2013 04:53:23PM 2 points [-]

Counterpoint: They got more press that way, and only one small set of actors had to coordinate, and the answer is obvious.

Comment author: ChristianKl 12 October 2013 08:56:43AM 0 points [-]

A small set of smart actors that coordinate doesn't need to search their targets among things that get a lot of press. They can just go to Bruce Schneiers movie plot contest and find plenty of ideas to do harm.

Comment author: JoshElders 11 October 2013 06:05:12PM 4 points [-]

Candidate for a forbidden topic: Celibate pedophilia

I saw a post somewhere (can't find it again) asking if there were forbidden topics on LessWrong, with the implication that this would be undesirable.

This post I made to the Discussion section was seriously downvoted: http://lesswrong.com/lw/it3/assertion_a_large_proportion_of_pedophiles_are/ There is no attribution behind downvotes, so the reasons can't be determined.

Perhaps it belonged here in the open thread; I'm not experienced enough to judge that. There are also complaints that it was obvious and had no significant rationality-related issues, but I humbly invite people to consider whether these may be rationalizations -- when evaluated against the relevance of posts in this open thread.

However, there are also comments that have upvotes:

"The existence of the article has potentially severe downsides for the site, and while we may wish this wasn't so, reality is what it is."

"taints reputation of LW"

"Writing about low-status topics is low-status. This topic is low-status. Making LW low-status goes against the goals of most readers, I guess."

Let's think civil liberties issues here. All the interesting civil liberties issues are about low-status cases -- if a group or some idea is popular with the majority, then no one is complaining and the "civil liberties" concept never comes up. Sometimes you might want to override your ordinary feelings about status to consider an oppressed group.

I speculate that what commonly comes to mind when "pedophilia" is mentioned is child sex abuse. Discrimination against (and punishment of) child sex abusers is entirely appropriate. I have ruled out that case by calling the topic "celibate pedophilia", but after that restriction is in place I suggest these associations: a desire to change society so that adult-child sexual activity is legal and accepted (e.g. NAMBLA), a desire to inflict harm on children, looking at pictures of children being harmed, and perhaps insisting to others that they shouldn't be disgusted by these desires.

I am opposed to all of those things, and I know there are many other celibate pedophiles like me. Some of the points seem irrelevant from a civil liberties point of view, but they are relevant from a status point of view.

So there are questions here of whether people want to personally change their status judgment based on those clarifications.

With regard to "tainting the site", there is an issue as to whether those clarifications can be conveyed in some way to avoid the fears of harm to the site based on low status. Does anyone want to clarify the risk of harm to the site?

Perhaps the net judgment of the LessWrong community is that it should be a forbidden topic. But if so, I think it's worth making a conscious note of that fact.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 11 October 2013 06:31:08PM 22 points [-]

Folks, this is what "things you can't say" looks like. This is what a real social taboo looks like.

Notice how different the community response is to this, versus to some of the things that are claimed by their proponents to be "things you can't say" but which are actually merely explicit statements of common beliefs in the cultural mainstream.

When someone triggers a social taboo, the response isn't so much "I will argue against this person!" — not even in the "someone is wrong on the Internet!" fashion. That's just disagreement (sometimes ideological or partisan disagreement), not taboo.

When someone triggers a social taboo, the response is more to try to stifle or exclude it quickly. This sometimes ends in trying to pretend that it never happened.

(I am not asserting that the taboo response is right or wrong on this subject. I am pointing out that it is different.)

Comment author: JoshElders 11 October 2013 08:01:23PM 0 points [-]

Well, if any of those 5 or more people who upvoted this think it's interesting enough to kick it up the chain rather than erasing the issue, you'll have to be the ones to do it. I couldn't even if I wanted to with my current karma ranking, and I don't really have the standing to, being a new member and being a member of the taboo group.

The community could end up deciding that it is a taboo topic, that's the way it is, end of story. Or perhaps there is fear that it could create a damaging controversy that would hurt the community? Or various other things that I can't predict.

But something feels wrong with a conclusion that "A public discussion about whether it's OK to talk about celibate pedophilia is taboo".

Comment author: Desrtopa 12 October 2013 03:50:21AM *  10 points [-]

While I did not upvote the original post itself, I'll note here my disagreement with all the comments taking issue with the post for being "off topic." We entertain topics related only very tangentially to rationality on a regular basis, and the issue is not that this subject is off topic beyond our usual tolerances, it's that practically any community will get the screaming heebie jeebies the moment it's raised. This is one of our existing taboos which is still strong enough for people to be hit by social splatter damage just by being near it and not protesting.

Comment author: hyporational 12 October 2013 05:06:08AM *  0 points [-]

The point is, if it were on topic, taking the status hit of exploring the subject matter might be justifiable. As it stands now its value is completely negative to the community.

Comment author: drethelin 12 October 2013 05:26:26AM 0 points [-]

There's nothing wrong with selfish intent. Most of my intents are selfish.

Comment author: hyporational 12 October 2013 05:34:23AM *  1 point [-]

I see I had a more constrained idea of selfishness in mind than you did. I'm not interested in arguing semantics (or maybe I am?). Removed the part about selfishness. It wasn't the point anyways.

ETA: Here's what I think is selfish: pushing your goals without concern for others. Perhaps you assumed a more general interpretation where looking for pleasure and avoiding pain is selfish. In that case, you've made the word useless, because it applies to everyone.

Comment author: [deleted] 12 October 2013 09:57:54AM *  5 points [-]

I bet the exact same argument if it was in a open thread comment would have been upvoted and would on net be considered a gain.

Claims like this when well argued are welcomed even outside threads for taboo topics (and even if they where only welcomed there that still leaves room for discussion). I recall the topic being discussed on the unofficial IRC channel and other comments.

Pedophilia is a legitimate sexual orientation, even if it expressing it IRL is bad (which it is not). Child porn should not be suppressed (tho some of it is documentation of crime and should be investigated).

Comment author: hyporational 12 October 2013 11:06:56AM 2 points [-]

Thanks, I think I had missed or forgotten that. That thread you linked seems awesome.

It's hard for me to believe the difference was just that he didn't post in the open thread. He seems monomaniacal with his cause, and planned to post more of the same. He hasn't discussed any other topic here, even introduced himself as a pedophile in the introduction thread.

Can you think of any other ways he could have been better received?

Comment author: [deleted] 12 October 2013 09:56:18AM *  3 points [-]

I recall making very similar arguments on pedophilia and generally being up voted. I think this is best explained by there being a stricter standard of avoiding taboo topics for main compared to the comment section.

I recall other controversial subjects such as the effectiveness of terrorism to stop Moore's law (was upvoted) and racial differences in intelligence (was downvoted) in main articles. And an article where lukeprog basically took any claim of the PUAs he found plausible and could find academic backing for and presented it divorced from the subculture, that was supposed to be the beginning of a series, but was probably seen as not desirable for the site and discontinued (despite it being upvoted).

I have made arguments about as controversial as the ones in your linked article in comments on pedophilia and they have generally been well received. The same is true of my arguments in favor of there being a hereditary component to the measured racial differences in intelligence. Alas I haven't commented on terrorism.

I think there is a general norm for things you can't talk about:

"this is ok to discuss, however opening it as a topic in itself on main makes the site looks bad and may attract the wrong kinds of attention".

The lesson I think really is to bring these kinds of topics up when they are one relevant example among several. If one wants them discussed as a standalone topics, open threads seem best or discussion section topics at most (hey we need something there besides meetup threads anyway).

Comment author: Alicorn 11 October 2013 07:07:21PM 7 points [-]

Without commenting directly on your topic, I'd like to congratulate you on remaining thoughtful and civil in spite of censure, and not - so far - escalating your interest in discussing this on LW to the point of spam.

Comment author: JoshElders 11 October 2013 07:22:09PM 0 points [-]

Thanks. I try. It is discouraging to get so much negative feedback, and when it gets personal it hurts, but I try to steel myself for it. I feel more than a bit like a sheep in wolves' clothing, though I realize others will suspect the opposite.

Comment author: drethelin 12 October 2013 05:22:01AM 6 points [-]

I think this probably should be a taboo topic because a) the number of people possibly helped by better legislation about this issue is fairly low b) Reputational hazard is extremely high c) it's not actually something that we can easily get RIGHT. I think the balance between protection of children and the happiness of pedophiles is not something this where we'll find the right balance on in a discussion here, which lowers the potential benefit even further. The stigmatization of people who have certain feelings they can't control is likely to be harsher than is good but I can't actually picture reasonable policy changes that will help the situation.

On the other hand I hate having taboo topics. I downvoted your original post because it was poorly argued and also something I think should probably not be a top-level post but I upvoted this comment for reasonability and because I think the issue is somewhat interesting.

Comment author: hyporational 12 October 2013 07:24:28AM *  7 points [-]

Perhaps it belonged here in the open thread; I'm not experienced enough to judge that. There are also complaints that it was obvious and had no significant rationality-related issues, but I humbly invite people to consider whether these may be rationalizations -- when evaluated against the relevance of posts in this open thread.

Most off-topic discussions here are relatively harmless to LW image. You pretty much chose the most taboo subject available, and you didn't even try to justify that by making it relevant to rationality. You could have tested the waters by making comments first, and actually participating in discussions available, but no, you just had to start by pushing your political agenda.

Let's think civil liberties issues here. All the interesting civil liberties issues are about low-status cases -- if a group or some idea is popular with the majority, then no one is complaining and the "civil liberties" concept never comes up. Sometimes you might want to override your ordinary feelings about status to consider an oppressed group.

I feel bad for the oppressed group in question, but pushing a singular political cause is bottom priority. LW doesn't exist to fight for any specific group's civil rights, especially if it happens at the expense of its other goals.

So there are questions here of whether people want to personally change their status judgment based on those clarifications.

The status judgement is based on people in general, outsiders and potential newcomers. LW isn't an isolated bubble.

With regard to "tainting the site", there is an issue as to whether those clarifications can be conveyed in some way to avoid the fears of harm to the site based on low status. Does anyone want to clarify the risk of harm to the site?

You could talk about civil liberties in general, and why pushing rights for marginal groups is more important for rationalists than other things. If you can't do that, then all your other efforts are futile.

Comment author: ChristianKl 12 October 2013 08:52:44AM 4 points [-]

I can't imagine a post that starts out with "Note: If you think the assertion is obvious, then this post may well not interest you." to be a good post on Lesswrong.

Comment author: [deleted] 12 October 2013 09:13:59AM *  4 points [-]

Let's think civil liberties issues here. All the interesting civil liberties issues are about low-status cases -- if a group or some idea is popular with the majority, then no one is complaining and the "civil liberties" concept never comes up. Sometimes you might want to override your ordinary feelings about status to consider an oppressed group.

Athrelon's argument Against Social Justice Warrioring seems relevant.

Comment author: [deleted] 12 October 2013 09:20:53AM *  2 points [-]

I think it is important to remember that the current strong sentiments against pedophilia are somewhat anomalous. I wrote several comments touching the subject on Yvain's blog.

I in the past when discussing this with Athrelon proposed that in the 1970s it was not at all obvious Transsexuals would make the ingroup and that Pedophiles wouldn’t.

The ongoing anti-pedophile hysteria, which has now reached the point where adult men talking with children are considered suspect and pedophiles lie why they got into prison lest they be murdered or raped, clouds our view of the past. It can be hard to alieve that traditional society saw this as one sexual perversion among many and that for a short window in the 1970s many respectable people considered a legitimate orientation.

The “between consenting adults all is allowed in sex” coalition cementing deontological law hadn’t yet solidified at the start of the sexual revolution. The now mostly sidelined “free love” one was the key point for coordination.

It was only 1994 that NAMBLA was expelled from “the International Lesbian and Gay Association, having been the first US based organization to be a member.”

Dawkin’s recent gaffe ( http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/magazine/article3858647.ece ) on the subject is a window into how this recent but alien social reality. I call it a gaffe, because those are in the eye of the beholder (the media), if you don’t think it caused on net bad PR for him do a search or two online and then come back.

Of course today, here where we are calm and in Far Mode and have certain LWian norms, we can safely sketch out the basic harm-based explanation. While both Pedophiles and Transsexuals probably don’t chose their feelings and yes we clearly should treat pedophilia, the idea that we would accept children “consenting” to sex with adult men on an alternative earth instead of contributing money so some men are allowed to cut off their penis and have a vagina fashioned is clearly absurd.

I think the question isn’t absurd at all, once you notice just how post-hoc this reasoning is. After all the why would the people in the 1970s not understand the very simple harm based argument I’m sure conservatives made?

Now maybe Pedophiles will make the coalition some day. Perhaps in 20 years. But this doesn’t change they where thrown off the Prog bus and lost the sexual revolution they helped launch. And in line with the linked article, I’m pretty sure their inclusion or exclusion isn’t going to be decided based on any kind of “harm accounting” that is claimed by many intellectuals to guide modern moral change.

In an add on comment I make the basic harm based argument I'm referring to here explicit

“Children are greatly harmed by sex with adults in nearly all circumstances. Thus this should be taboo for their good.”

So I'm making the likely controversial case that this argument is the result of post-hoc reasoning that would not convince us in the alternative timeline I also tried to make alievable, not only believable, with my language.

I should also append this follow up comment to avoid this being understood as an on attack or insult to transexuals per se:

People asked for a plausible example despite being controversial, I gave one.

Now the debate is about pedophilia, sex with teenagers and transexuals. This would not be a problem if people directly used it either to attack or support the argument I advanced.

Some seem to want to have simplified it and are engaging the comment as if I just said “Pedophilia is not bad, transsexuals are bad.” This isn’t what I was saying, nor was it something I wasn’t saying. It isn’t what the argument is about. Indeed I for now refuse to comment on this in the hopes this thread can be salvaged. Or does everyone simply agree with the point I was making as plausible and only debates on this nearby topic remain?

...

Sure the meta arguments often change our opinion on object level political positions… but engaging just the political positions themselves without addressing the arguments for the meta is not a productive conversation for me.

This was in the context of me using it as an example of the the capricious nature of what is sometimes termed Moral Progress, the ongoing process of value drift in our civilization.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 12 October 2013 09:25:14AM *  3 points [-]

Still at it. Well.

I have ruled out that case by calling the topic "celibate pedophilia"

You have done nothing of the sort. You have merely drawn a line around the class (a class of unknown size) of those who have such urges but have never acted on them. But is this concept a natural kind? Does it carve reality at a joint? Does this line on the map correspond to any line in the territory? Is it an empirical cluster in thingspace?

I believe the answer is no. The reality appears to be that there are people who, alas, have urges of this sort, some of whom act on them and are caught, some who act on them and have not been caught, and an unknown number who have not acted. Is there anything to distinguish the latter class from the first two that is predictive of whether or not they will offend in future?

Would you hire as a shop assistant a professed non-practicing kleptomaniac? As an accountant, a professed non-practicing fraudster? For childcare, a professed "celibate pedophile"?

The rest is blatant concern trolling. "Ooh, is this a forbidden topic? Help, help, I'm being discriminated against! Shouldn't we have a rational discussion about this? Are we only thinking about status? Think of the civil liberties. Poor little me, all those downvotes, how could I possibly tell what they mean? Does anyone want to clarify this?"

Alicorn gives you far too much credit for "remaining thoughtful and civil". Yes, you are being polite and well-spoken, I'm sure your discourse goes down very well over after-dinner coffee and cigars with like-minded friends, but it's an empty shell. As C.S. Lewis might have said, it is hard work to make a reasoned argument, but effortless to act as though one has just been made.