Brillyant comments on Is it immoral to have children? - Less Wrong Discussion
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So, Ayn Rand is right? Except...
...this doesn't fit. At all.
Wouldn't a one-time transfer of wealth be doomed to fail quickly due to your view of humans' innate selfishness and laziness? That is, resource inequality would restore itself quickly, no?
I think it is odd that you see some sort of moral value to "flip the big equality switch" via a snap of your fingers, yet you push back against the idea of more gradual steps toward a similar end.
No, Ayn Rand is as silly as any other highly influential and successful political philosophy. However, the truth is that people are remarkably selfish. Observe the many who are more concerned about their coffee-based beverages than wars and starvation. This makes them human. I don't want them to stop being that way, not completely, not even to a great extent.
Resource inequality is not the concern here. Poverty is. Poverty can be reduced by giving people wealth.
If a person said to me, "I used to be selfish and spend a lot of money on Starbucks, but now I see the error of my ways and will devote my life to fighting poverty," I would applaud his morality.
It's not obvious this is true other than in the short term.
This sentence also exists in a large number of variations with the word "wealth" replaced by "power", "technology", "information", "self-confidence", "government assistance", etc. etc.
I don't know that this is the place or format to come to a conclusion, but I would argue your views as expressed are in close correlation with Rand's Objectivism. Broad strokes, limited sample. But correlation.
Is it possible that people must refrain from acting in remarkable selfish ways, at least in regard to physical resources, in order to bring about an improvement in net global conditions (poverty rate, etc.)? Is it possible that "greed (or selfsihness) is good" in terms of leading to financial growth, technological progress, etc...but it also leads to an eventual extreme inequality in wealth?
Can poverty be defined as (one aspect of) an extreme inequality in resources? If no, why not?
Didn't you just say you didn't want people to stop behaving selfishly?
No.
Let's say there was a day, tens of thousands of years ago, when the wealthiest human alive owned nothing more than a sharp stick and a basket full of raw fish. That was still a condition of poverty, despite the lack of any more-successful rivals.
Poverty is not a comparative thing, for all that the formally recognized thresholds have been adjusted as conditions change. It is the condition of scarcity so severe as to perversely inhibit using any remaining resources at all efficiently. Poverty is jamming the round peg into the square hole because there's ice-cold water coming through that hole, you need to block the flow somehow, at least a little bit, it's up to your knees already. You don't have a square peg. The last time you had a square peg, using it up was the only adequately expedient way to deal with some other goddamn ridiculous deathtrap mechanism.
Good point. So it is possible for 100% of the world to live in poverty.
However, the earth bears sufficient resource for this to not be the case. In fact, it bears sufficient resource so that no one need be impoverished.
Inequality in wealth at extreme levels is often the product of systemic issues -- the rules allow for, and in some cases even encourage, oppression.
In this case, it might be worthwhile to conceive of the poverty/wealth spectrum as being a separate dimension from the oppression/power spectrum.
Wealth can be positive-sum, but social power isn't. It might be interesting to see how they correlate - it seems that a large component of the debate between various political ideologies, for example, is over what effect a given level of social power disparity has on the amount that wealth is positive-sum vs. zero-sum. (Ugh, that's an ugly sentence.)
Hm. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this. Please elaborate, if you will?
Gladly. (EDITED: I originally used 'wealth' and 'power' instead of 'wealth' and 'coercion'. It was rightly pointed out that 'wealth' is just a form of 'power'. So rather than "separating wealth from power", what I'm really talking about is "separating our ideas about wealth from our ideas about coercion".)
On one axis, we have poverty/wealth, which is a measure of "how much stuff do I have?" - how much food, water, air, shelter, etc. - up to and including how much control I have over my physical environment. Near one end of the spectrum, we can imagine skeletal children waiting for vultures to eat them. Near the other end of the spectrum, we can imagine eloi living within utility fogs, waiting to condense anything they dream of out of thin air.
On another axis, we have the social ladder / status games that humans play so well. Near one end of that spectrum, we can imagine abject slaves, whose right to live is up to the whim of others; near the other end of that spectrum, we can imagine despotic conquerors, whose whim controls the lives of millions.
The poverty/wealth spectrum is NOT zero-sum, because even if we collapse a society's span on that spectrum down to a single point, WHERE that point falls matters - everyone being equally poor is materially different from everyone being equally rich.
On the other hand, the social coercion spectrum is fundamentally zero-sum - you can't remove B's inferiority to A, without removing A's superiority to B.
The problem is, most people don't seem to REALLY separate those two spectra - when we talk about "making people more equal", we usually talk about wealth redistribution, not coercion redistribution. Paul Graham discusses this at length.
The thing is, coercion influences wealth, and vice-versa. But the fact that they influence each other doesn't make them the same thing - it just means that the phase diagram covers a subset of the phase space, instead of the whole thing.
One thing you notice when you look at history, is how various technologies (which are physical objects, and therefore on the wealth spectrum) influence the course of society and governance (which are social objects, and therefore on the coercion spectrum). For example, look at how readily "freer" democratic governments break out when new military technology makes it easier to mount rebellions, and how readily authoritarian regimes break out when new military technology makes it easier to consolidate coercion. And look at how readily technological revolutions break out when a culture allows free exploration of possibilities, and how readily they die when a culture imposes direct control over what its entrepreneurs and researchers can study and make.
A testable claim that the Progressive movement might make, if these two continua are recognized as separate, is that minimizing the coercion disparity between individuals will tend to maximize their aggregate wealth, while maximizing the coercion disparity between individuals will tend to lower that aggregate wealth. The American version of Libertarianism seems to make the opposite claim, that allowing power disparities to naturally follow the individuals' innate abilities to seize and hold power will allow those individuals who are better at multiplying wealth to do so, while redistributing their wealth to those with less innate ability to seize and hold power is inefficient.
Even better, though, separating out those two concepts allows certain testable claims to be made more clearly - things like "we can redistribute coercive power without redistributing wealth, and regulation is one way to do that", and "all attempts to redistribute or nullify coercive power must use coercive power to do so, and will therefore favor those who currently have coercive power".
EDIT: Upon further reflection, I think it's not entirely true that people can't distinguish between these two concepts - plenty of people can and do distinguish between them, but then when they come to making policy decisions, they conflate them again. This looks like a cognitive bias at work, but I'm not sure which one - something that causes people to default to zero-sum thinking even when they know a situation has positive-sum solutions?
I might be out of my intellectual league here...and perhaps oversimplifying...
But I don't know that I accept the premise that wealth & power are separate (or even can be) in the way you describe.
I suppose it comes down to definitions. I'd say wealth is roughly "stuff you need and want"; power is roughly "the ability to get stuff you need and want".
In this sense, individual wealth is a result of power. And wealth also ensures the continuation (and even further accumulation) of power, as well as perpetuating further increases in wealth.
So, power --> wealth --> more wealth & power
As this process continues, power and wealth become concentrated among a small group relative to the population. When that happens, you have 80% of the pie being eaten be 20% (or <10%) of the people. 20% of the pie (wealth) ain't enough for 80% (or >90%) of the people. And they haven't sufficient means (power) to do anything about it.
In the past, revolutions take place to correct for this. The "haves" become too wealthy and not-powerful-enough to maintain the equilibrium against the huge (and therefore powerful enough) number of (too poor) "have-nots", so it shifts.
But, as you mentioned, we seem to living in an age with technology that can ensure power indefinitely on behalf of the "haves". In the global economy, there are large groups of have-nothings for whom no technology sufficient to mount a rebellion can be realized, and they are therefore marginalized from a power standpoint, and utterly impoverished in terms of wealth.
In any case, I don't see a meaningful distinction between wealth and power in regard to how to fix the world and end poverty.
Nod I see your complaint, and I think it's fundamentally about what "power" means. I'll edit my previous post to clarify terms:
Where I said "power", what I really meant was "coercion". "Wealth" and "Coercion" are both different kinds of "power", which can in fact be separated from each other.
Is that clearer?