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hyporational comments on Open Thread, November 1 - 7, 2013 - Less Wrong Discussion

5 Post author: witzvo 02 November 2013 04:37PM

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Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 November 2013 05:35:08PM *  15 points [-]

So I get home from a weekend trip and go directly to the HPMOR page. No new chapter yet. But there is a link to what seems to be a rationalist Death Note.

The way he saw it, the world was a pretty awful place. Corrupt politicians, cruel criminals, evil CEOs and even day-to-day evil acts made it that way, but everyday stupidity ensured it would stay like that. Nobody could make even a simple utility calculation. The only saving grace was that this was as true for the villains as for the heroes.

I am going to read it. Here are my next thoughts:

So, it seems like Eliezer succeeded to create a whole new genre of literature: rationalist fiction. Nice job!

Wait, what?! Is "a story where the protagonist behaves rationally" really a new genre of literature? There is something horribly wrong with this world if this is true.

Discussing with my girlfriend about which stories should be x-rationalizated next, she suggests HPMOR. Someone should make a HPMOR fanfic where the protagonist is even more rational than the rational Harry. Would that lead to a spiral of even more and more rational heroes?

What exactly could the MoreRational!Harry do? It would be pretty awesome if he could somehow deduce the existence of magic before he was contacted from Hogwarts. For example, he could start doing some research about his biological parents; after realizing they were killed he could try to find out the villain, and gradually discover the existence of magic.

Only one problem: MoreRational!Voldemort would have killed MoreRational!Harry as a baby. Using a knife.

Comment author: hyporational 04 November 2013 03:14:17PM *  1 point [-]

Wait, what?! Is "a story where the protagonist behaves rationally" really a new genre of literature? There is something horribly wrong with this world if this is true.

I get your sentiment, but I don't think this is true. Anyways, wouldn't this just mean that rational minds usually pursue other goals than writing fiction? Not saying that there shouldn't be rationalist fiction, but this doesn't sound like such a bad state of affairs to me.

I haven't read HPMOR. Do I have to know anything about the HP universe to enjoy this thing? Will I learn anything new if I've read the sequences?

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 04 November 2013 03:55:19PM *  3 points [-]

I guess you don't need to know anything from the HP canon. It could perhaps be even more interesting that way. I don't think you would learn new information. It might have a better emotional impact, but that is difficult to predict.

wouldn't this just mean that rational minds usually pursue other goals than writing fiction? Not saying that there shouldn't be rationalist fiction, but this doesn't sound like such a bad state of affairs to me.

I would consider the world better if there were more rational people sharing the same values as me. We could cooperate on mutual goals, and learn from each other.

Problem is, rational people don't just appear randomly in the world. Okay, sometimes they do, but the process if far from optimal. If there is a chance to make rationality spread more reliable, we should try.

But we don't exactly know how. We tried many things, with partial success. For example the school system -- it is great in taking an illiterate peasant population and producing an educated population within a century. But it has some limits: students learn to guess their teachers' passwords, there are not enough sufficiently skilled teachers, the pressure from the outside world can bring religion to schools and prevent teaching evolution, etc. And the system seems difficult to improve from inside (been there, tried that).

Spreading rationality using fiction is another thing worth trying. There is a chance to attract a lot of people, make some of them more rational, and create a lot of utility. Or maybe despite there being dozens of rationalist fiction stories, they would all be read by the same people; unable to attract anyone outside of the chosen set. I don't know.

The point is, if you are rational and you think the world would be better with more rational people... it's one problem you can try to solve. So before Eliezer we had something like the Drake equation: how many people are rational × how many of them think making more people rational is the best action × how many of them think fiction is the best tool for that = almost zero. I am curious about the specific numbers; especially whether one of them is very close to zero, or whether it's merely a few small numbers that give almost zero result when multiplied together.

Comment author: hyporational 06 November 2013 02:38:11AM 1 point [-]

I'd probably want more people who share my values than more rational people. Rational people who share my values is better. Rational people who don't share my values would be the worst outcome.

I don't think the school system was built by rationalists, so I'm not sure where you were going with that example.

How effective has fiction been in spreading other ideas compared to other methods?