You're looking at Less Wrong's discussion board. This includes all posts, including those that haven't been promoted to the front page yet. For more information, see About Less Wrong.

The Craft And The Community: The Basics: Apologizing

0 Post author: Ritalin 23 November 2013 04:55PM

Now, it is said we all here pride ourselves on our intelligence, rationality, and moral sense. It is also said, however, that we are a fiercely independent bunch, and that we can let this pride of ours get the better of us. There have also been comments that the live communities that appear at meetups provide much more positive interactions than what goes on on this site's discussions; this might merit further investigation.

My point is; we've done a lot of research on how to do proper ethical and metaethical calculations, and on how to achieve self-empowerment and deal with our own akrasia, which is awesome. We've also done some work on matters of gender equality, which is very positive as well. But I haven't seen us do anything about the basic details of human interaction, what one would call "politeness" and "basic human decency". And I think it might be useful if we started tackling these, for our own sakes, that of those who surround us, and that of easing our mission along, which is, as I understand it so far, to save the world (from existential risk (at the hands of (unfriendly and self-modifying) artificial intelligence))).

What inspired me to propose this post was a video I just saw from Hank Green of the famed and fabled vlogbrothers. I hold these two individuals in very high esteem, and I would expect many here to share my feelings about them, on account of their values and sensibilities largely overlapping with ours; namely the sense that intelligence, knowledge and curiosity are awesome, and that intellectuals ought to use their power to help improve themselves and the world around them.

Here it is; I hope you enjoy it

 

 

Comments (191)

Comment author: KnaveOfAllTrades 23 November 2013 11:03:29PM *  17 points [-]

Yes; apology is an underrated consequentialist tool among nerds.

Some of the social function of apology can be understood game theoretically: Apology explicitly disavows a past action, allowing the one to whom the apology was made to leverage that confession in future: If someone apologises for something then does it again, then response can escalate because we have evidence that they are doing it even knowing that it's 'wrong'. The person who apologised knows this, and often the implicit threat of escalation if they do the same thing checks their future behaviour. Therefore apology is (possibly among other things) a signal, where the cost to apologising is the greater susceptibility to escalation in future cases.

Apology falls into a class--along with other things such as forgiving misdeeds, forgetting misdeeds, retribution, punishing an agent against its will, compensation for misdeeds--of things that would make no sense among sufficiently advanced and cooperative rationalists. Some things in that class (e.g. forgiveness) might already have been transcended by LW, and others (e.g. apology) are probably not possible to transcend even on LW, because the knowledge of other participants (e.g. confidence of their cooperativeness) required to transcend apology is probably too high for an online community of this size.

I would guess that the Bay Area rationalist set and its associates--which as far as I can tell is by far the most advanced community in the world in terms of how consummately instrumental x-rationality is forged into their swords--apologizes way, way, way more than the average LW'er, just like they talk about/express their feelings way more than people on LW typically do, and win because they're willing to confront that prospect of 'being vulnerable'.

HPMoR status:

"Well," said the boy. His eyes had not wavered from the Defense Professor's. "I certainly regret hurting you, Professor. But I do not think the situation calls for me to submit to you. I never really did understand the concept of apology, still less as it applies to a situation like this; if you have my regrets, but not my submission, does that count as saying sorry?"

Again that cold, cold laugh, darker than the void between the stars.

"I wouldn't know," said the Defense Professor, "I, too, never understood the concept of apology. That ploy would be futile between us, it seems, with both of us knowing it for a lie. Let us speak no more of it, then. Debts will be settled between us in time."

Two mistakes in thinking that my past self made a lot and others might also:

(1) Refusing to apologize if another party was 'more wrong'. Even if you're 99.9% right/innocent/blameless, you still have to make a choice between apologizing and not apologizing to the other person. If you refuse to apologize, things will probably get worse, because the other person thinks you're more wrong than you think you are, and they will see you not apologizing as defecting. If you apologize in a smart way, you can give an apology (which shouldn't make a difference but has the actual consequence where the other person is more probable to also apologise) without tying yourself down with too broad a commitment on your future behaviour, and without lying that you thought something was a mistake that wasn't.

(2) Using the fact that, in the limit as rationality and cooperation become arbitrarily great, apology is meaningless, as a rationalization for not apologising, when in fact you just feel embarrassed/are generally untrained and therefore not fit enough to apologise, and you're therefore avoiding the exertion of doing so.

I want to point out the difference between completely fake apologies for things one does not think were mistakes, and apologising for things that were mistakes even if the other person's mistakes were much greater. The former is less often the smart thing to do, and the latter is a lot more often than one might think. Once you get fairly strong, you can sometimes even win free points by apologising in front of a big group of people for something that everyone but the other disputant think is completely outweighed by the other disputant's actions.

E.g. 'I'm sorry I used such an abrupt tone in asking you to desist from stealing my food; it probably put you on the defensive.' If you really mean it (and you should, because you're almost certainly not a perfect communicator and there were probably things you could have done better), then often onlookers will think you're awesome and think the other person sucks for 'making you' apologise when you'd 'done nothing wrong'. Sometimes even the other disputant will be so disarmed by your unwavering 'politeness' that they will realise the ridiculousness of the situation and realise that you're being genuine and that they made a mistake, whereas when they thought you were a hostile opponent, it was much easier for them to rationalise that mistake.

Notice than in that example, your apology has not even constrained your future actions; everyone was so distracted by the ridiculousness of you apologising when you were innocent and the contrast it made between yourself and your opponent, that nobody will think to escalate against you in future the next time somebody steals your food.

That's why it's so important to know how to lose--so that you can win! Just like how the best things you could do to decrease your personal risk from fights are things like practising conflict defusion techniques, learning how to walk away from conflict, being less tempestuous, being situationally aware, or even just learning how to play dead/fake a seizure/panic attack, rather than something that just looks like winning, like practising flashy kicks.

Comment author: Ritalin 24 November 2013 08:34:04AM 4 points [-]

'I'm sorry I used such an abrupt tone in asking you to desist from stealing my food; it probably put you on the defensive.'

The setting most probable for such a situation would be a school environment, middle or high. The theft would not be about the food, it would be about bullying, and if the thief feels confident enough to even attempt this, it means that the victim is isolated and bereft of allies. In this context, I would expect them to laught at such a phrase, and I would expect the victim to lack the subjective perception of strength to even deliver it properly.

We should do something on bullies and how to deal with them... for the sake of our children if nothing else.

Comment author: KnaveOfAllTrades 24 November 2013 11:19:52AM *  4 points [-]

Fair. That's not a situation where I've actually used the 'overly apologetic' approach, it was just the first thing my imagination returned when I queried for a possible example that had the feel I was looking for. I had in mind (university) student life, where theft of food would (in my experience) not generally be due to bullying so much as greed and the perpetrator would probably know they made a mistake but might get defensive when called out. Also, the wording of that example is off, because (1) 'stealing my food' is relatively harsh and explicit and can feel like an accusation, hauling the perpetrator across the coals (2) 'probably put you on the defensive' could also be construed as a further dig.

Better would be, 'I'm sorry I used such an abrupt tone when talking to you about this before; I think it might have seemed like I was attacking you?' (where 'this' is unambiguous due to conversational context). Raise voice at end of sentence to emphasise query. This encourages other person to make a snap decision between answering that it did and risk escalating or answer that it didn't to foster reconciliation. Often they will go for the latter even if they did kinda feel under attack, just because they're on the spot and don't want to risk defecting from the reconciliation process. And if they go the former route, you should take it graciously (using your rationality training to avoid being outraged), and if appropriate even thank them for letting you know.

Actual example from my experience: Being woken up/kept awake at a somewhat unreasonable time by a housemate showering and moving around on the floor above (paper-thin ceiling) for a long time. Eventually I dragged myself upstairs in just boxer shorts (since I didn't want to get dressed, which seemed like it would waste time and drag me further away from sleep), knocked on their door, and garbled some sort of hinty explanation that they were making a fair amount of noise. Since both of us are somewhat bodily thick males and he's a man and didn't know me very well at the time, I think it possibly seemed like I was using an intimidation tactic along with being terse (actually I just wasn't conscious enough to muster a high level of politeness), and he seemed a lot more defensive than usual. The next day we swapped apologies (I apologised for being rude/seeming like I was getting on his case), which immediately set the tone for a productive discussion that made both of us more aware and considerate.

It did occur to me that I left it ambiguous as to when a situation is susceptible to calculated losing, and when (e.g. bullying, as you pointed out) apology can actually make things worse. Having clarified that by acknowledging such counterexamples exist, I can't think of any other situations where someone might misinterpret my advice to disastrous effect; generally I think it's either clear-cut (e.g. being bullied has a very different feel to being carelessly woken up), or at least ambiguous enough that erring on the side of 'politeness' is generally better. But it's possible I'm failing to think of something or overlooking a potential example situation where it's obvious to me but maybe not to others?

Comment author: Adele_L 24 November 2013 04:24:52AM 3 points [-]

Some things in that class (e.g. forgiveness) might already have been transcended by LW,

Could you explain this specific example further?

Comment author: KnaveOfAllTrades 24 November 2013 11:52:49AM *  2 points [-]

In the sense I'm using it here, forgiveness is an arbitrary ritual whereby the 'I'm angry at you about this' tag is switched to 'Nah, 's cool' for the forgiver. For the forgived, it's a way of saying that they're 'allowed' to stop feeling guilty about their past action because the forgiver has 'granted them' forgiveness.

Forgiveness can be useful if you don't have the self-awareness to know when you've fully learned your lesson from a mistake, and someone attuned to it (the forgiver) is better positioned to discern when you have. It can also serve a social function as a 'lowering of weapons', or as a way of saying 'I am now over my emotional disgust and am ready to engage again', or so forth.

Insomuch as forgiveness is an approximation to these various component propositions and is coloured by magical thinking (e.g. intuitively thinking that it makes sense to have an epiphenomenal 'mad at you' tag that should determine your disposition towards someone), advanced cooperating rationalists would not use forgiveness, because it encourages magical thinking about the various components, and this magical thinking is susceptible to lost purposes, e.g. turning into a game of 'winning forgiveness' that is divorced from the actual purpose of doing better in future or understanding mistakes better.

'Forgive and forget' is even worse; advanced cooperating rationalists would not permit each other to forget misdeeds, including their own, because that would be throwing away evidence. Of course, 'forget' here does not literally mean forget; misdeeds might be brought up again if the same mistake is made in future. But this is still a binary thing of 'Allowed to bring this up as evidence'/'Not allowed to' which is a crude approximation to the continuous and constant nature of past misdeeds as evidence about a person.

I don't remember ever seeing a forgiveness ritual take place on LW, but I do know that I've seen lots of cases in an exchange where someone explained their own misdeed and its cause to prove they could avoid it in future (and sometimes committed to avoiding it in future), and that was good enough for all involved.

I probably phrased this a bit strongly in the first place, since I could see e.g. Bay Area instrumental x-rationality pros using forgiveness rituals as an informal time-saving shorthand for the underlying rigorous game-theoretical/Bayesian concepts. But I suspect they would be less susceptible to losing sight of that underlying core (e.g. less susceptible to 'win forgiveness' games). This would be 'post-rigorous forgiveness', but I'd remain suspicious of pre-rigorous forgiveness.

Comment author: jsteinhardt 24 November 2013 02:26:10AM 2 points [-]

I wish I could upvote this more than once.

Comment author: jetm 25 November 2013 12:09:15PM 0 points [-]

Once you get fairly strong, you can sometimes even win free points by apologising in front of a big group of people for something that everyone but the other disputant think is completely outweighed by the other disputant's actions.

Why would this be true? If the other disputant was so clearly in the wrong, wouldn't it be obvious that that's what you're trying to do, thus voiding the effect?

Comment author: KnaveOfAllTrades 25 November 2013 02:00:58PM *  1 point [-]

Sure, it wouldn't always be effective. But things that--when described linguistically to you--sound obvious can be subtle enough when they actually happen to others that they work anyway. Actually believing that you have acted imperfectly and can do better next time and conveying this in apology form makes it less obvious. And in fact, if you are trained to apologise for little things in the face of big things even without an audience, then your outward conduct may even be mostly indistinguishable between the two cases anyway.

Comment author: Benquo 23 November 2013 11:18:33PM 6 points [-]
Comment author: [deleted] 23 November 2013 07:26:54PM 14 points [-]

An example, by way of "The Root of All Evil" by Richard Dawkins:

Science is about testing, comparing and corroborating this mass of evidence, and using it to update old theories of how things work. I do remember one formative influence in my undergraduate life. There was an elderly professor in my department who had been passionately keen on a particular theory for a number of years. And one day an American visiting researcher came, and he completely and utterly disproved our old man's hypothesis. The old man strode to the front, shook his hand and said, "My dear fellow, I wish to thank you. I have been wrong these 15 years." And we all clapped our hands raw. That was the scientific ideal of somebody who had a lot invested, a lifetime almost invested in a theory, and he was rejoicing that he had been shown wrong, and scientific truth had been advanced.

Comment author: Benquo 23 November 2013 11:19:49PM 2 points [-]

What does this have to do with apologizing?

Comment author: fubarobfusco 23 November 2013 11:29:39PM 3 points [-]

Both involve admitting that you've been wrong?

Comment author: Benquo 23 November 2013 11:32:24PM 4 points [-]

That is a thing they have in common, but that seems insufficiently specific to justify the relevance of that anecdote to this post.

Especially since I don't recall the linked video saying much about making sure you're wrong before apologizing.

Comment author: Ritalin 23 November 2013 08:22:36PM 1 point [-]

This anecdote literally drives me to tears.

Comment author: Anatoly_Vorobey 23 November 2013 10:58:30PM *  16 points [-]

My first reaction to this video is that it's pretty crappy. Its main message is to insist on the following sequence as everyone's moral responsibility: once you say something that someone perceives as hurtful, you're morally obliged not to "question their feelings", but to perceive that you screwed up, to feel bad, to apologize, and change your behavior so this doesn't happen again. The video repeatedly insists that your own thoughts about whether what you've done was improper are irrelevant.

Now, it should be completely obvious that this sequence is not going to be used as prescribed by anyone including the author of the video. If you were to approach him and say, "In your video, you identified my position as that of a fartbag, repeatedly, and that was very hurtful to me", he's not going to say, "Oh, thanks for telling me that, I'm sorry I screwed up, I feel really bad and will never do this again". He is, in fact, going to use his own judgement about the appropriateness of his behavior to decide whether or not he should apologize.

Why, then, is there no mention of your own moral judgement in the video, and instead, you're repeatedly encouraged not to question someone's hurt feelings, but to accept them as a proof you did something hurtful, and must feel bad and apologize?

My guess is that this is a shortcut towards setting up a double standard. Once you've gotten people to accept this sequence as their moral responsibility, some varieties of hurt feelings are going to be treated as obviously triggering the sequence, while others will just be ignored. This isn't conscious lying - the author of the video is sincere. He's going to have a blinkered view of what it means to hurt someone's feelings, and he wants you to have that same view, too. If you approach him with a hypothetical scenario in which what he's said or done was true, virtuous, and hurt the feelings of some bad person, he's not going to be able to see a problem with that, and will accuse you of sophistry.

Double standards are incredibly powerful because they allow you to be hypocritical without consciously being aware of the fact. They've replaced direct and conscious lies as the preferred method of being untruthful in arguments.

The video that is recommended at the end as the inspiration for this one provides much of the missing context; it's all about how to correctly apologize after being "called out, which in the context of this video is when you say or do something that upholds the oppression of the marginalized groups of people"; the video teaches you how to apologize and become a proper "ally", etc. So we're fully into the social-justice-warriors terminology here, which is or course very much misaligned with rationality, and the double standard described above is being built primarily with that purpose.

There are some good things about this video. It is true that many people feel that apologizing is a sign of weakness. It is also true that there should be more direct apologies and fewer non-apology "I'm sorry you feel that way" apologies. These good aspects of the video are drowned by the dogmatic, irrational claims of alleged moral responsibility to which most of the video is devoted.

Watching the video was a decent exercise in detecting some typical patterns of bad thinking.

Comment author: Ritalin 24 November 2013 08:54:30AM *  4 points [-]

If you approach him with a hypothetical scenario in which what he's said or done was true, virtuous, and hurt the feelings of some bad person, he's not going to be able to see a problem with that, and will accuse you of sophistry.

I don't anticipate that. Seems like a perfectly acceptable hypothetical.

social-justice-warriors terminology here, which is or course very much misaligned with rationality

Wait, what? How so?

Comment author: Anatoly_Vorobey 24 November 2013 12:23:53PM *  14 points [-]

I don't anticipate that. Seems like a perfectly acceptable hypothetical.

Not sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that, for instance, if Hank Green were to correctly call someone's words racist, and that person were to complain to Hank Green that this labeling hurt them, Hank Green would thereupon feel bad, apologize, and refrain from using the word "racist" henceforth? I find that ridiculously unlikely.

social-justice-warriors terminology here, which is or course very much misaligned with rationality

Wait, what? How so?

In a myriad of ways, really. Off the top of my head, and I'll stop at five examples, and will skip "check your privilege", because that's just shooting fish in a barrel:

  1. Status-seeking through Oppression Olympics is endemic.

  2. The concept of "ally" seems to involve wilful submission to others' critical judgements and suspension of your own critical faculties. Witness the burgeoning genre of explanations of what a "good ally" must or must not do, which usually involve "shut up" and other similar admonishments.

  3. Habitual pattern-matching of any opposition. Hence "derailing", the practice of bingo cards, etc. Persistent, almost automatic pattern-matching is not felt to be a problem.

  4. In general it's rare to see a SJW willing to question the basic tenets of their movement. I also don't recall seeing a SJW actively seek out data unfavourable to their convictions, or update on such data.

  5. SJW rhetoric frequently relies on bullying the opponent, with opposition to such pattern-matched to and decried as "tone argument".

I don't think it's possible to be a committed SJW and a committed rationalist. The social norms of the movement are too poisonous to rational thought.

(rationalism is, of course, compatible with a commitment to social justice)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 25 November 2013 12:19:34PM 6 points [-]

Are you saying that, for instance, if Hank Green were to correctly call someone's words racist, and that person were to complain to Hank Green that this labeling hurt them, Hank Green would thereupon feel bad, apologize, and refrain from using the word "racist" henceforth?

I guess he would. Well, at least if the complaining person was a woman, or black, or disabled, or homosexual, or whatever. He would probably not stop using the word "racist", but he would be more careful to use it in a way that makes obvious that the word applies only to white straight males.

Ok, I was joking here, but here is a thing that really happened on a feminist blog: There was a discussion about trans people. All people were super politically correct, except for one person who repeatedly asserted that trans people are against the nature, because the Spirit of Nature told her so. When other people finally attacked that as cis-ism (or how exactly they call that), the person defended by saying that she was a Native American, and those were her Native American beliefs; and that the people who offended her beliefs should check their privileges and apologize. And... however incredibly that felt to me... they really apologized. I was completely shocked. So yes, this kind of behavior really is possible. It might not make sense to you or me, but it exists.

Comment author: Ritalin 24 November 2013 03:47:03PM 2 points [-]

"Not sure I understand you correctly" Indeed you misunderstood me; I meant that, if one were to confront Hank Green on this double standard, he would acknowledge it and amend his proposal accordingly, because, as far as I've been able from watching his show, he's an honest guy.

Although, if one is feeling strong enough, the alternative you're describing can be practical, because racists and malicious bastards are people too, have loved ones and hopes and aspirations... and vulnerabilities. And hurting their feelings can be counter-productive to getting them to stop being in your way. So, if you can spare the effort and the love, you might as well be sorry that they're hurt, and say so. But that's, like, Messianic, All-Loving Hero grade awesomeness, and I believe it's perfectly fine to not feel or show "sympathy for the devil".

Also, there might well be a huge level of arrogance in forgiving a villain for the hurt they inflicted on people other than you; it's not your place to do that.

What are Oppression Olymptics? What is "check your privilege"?

This said, I've seen some of the patterns you described occur. I don't know if I would call myself an SJW (I mean, what is that, precisely? I've only started hearing the term "social justice" this November, in relation to Kill la Kill of all things (which, by the way, is insanely awesome), but I know I am pretty committed to the promotion and advancement of gender and racial equality.

This is partly because of the obvious and multiple utilitarian advantages on a universal level. It is also because I selfishly want to be able to enjoy poetry, flowers, fashion, be a vegetarian, drive an electric car, and, why not, fuck a dude if I feel like it, among many other things, without getting harassed and belittled and found undesirable for it by men and women alike, without it diminishing my social status and getting in the way of me getting things done.

Now, this said, I've been faced with embarassing situations as an "ally", where my allies were acting like utter jerks; I call them out on it and move on. The trick is not to be afraid of what the jerks think, to propose one's arguments in a fair-minded way and to stand against unfair-minded arguments, in stark opposition to the "arguments as soldiers" attitude. The fair-minded people will probably know you to be true, and you can only hope that your arguments can somehow get through the jerks' think, irrational, vindictive skulls (if they don't dismiss it outright as "demagogia" or "sophistry").

As for pattern-matching, that's a heuristic that seems hard to avoid when you have little previous information on your interlocutor, and you've had experience before dealing with interlocutors who eventually turned out to be unreceptive jerks from the other side; it can be a very frustrating waste of time and effort and love, and I feel some sympathy for the people who overcomensate in unwelcomingness out of fear of this happening again.

Comment author: lmm 24 November 2013 11:29:58PM 7 points [-]

What are Oppression Olymptics?

People "competing" by claiming they are more oppressed than other people, because of the group they're in.

What is "check your privilege"?

In its worst form, the position that you're not allowed to have a view on an issue (or that any possible view is invalid) because you are not the oppressed party.

I've only started hearing the term "social justice" this November, in relation to Kill la Kill of all things (which, by the way, is insanely awesome), but I know I am pretty committed to the promotion and advancement of gender and racial equality.

Hah. The cluster I think of as SJW would, I'm pretty sure, say you couldn't possibly be committed to the advancement of gender equality if you have a positive view on Kill la Kill.

It is also because I selfishly want to be able to enjoy poetry, flowers, fashion, be a vegetarian, drive an electric car, and, why not, fuck a dude if I feel like it, among many other things, without getting harassed and belittled and found undesirable for it by men and women alike, without it diminishing my social status and getting in the way of me getting things done.

I think that's an inadequate rationalization. As a straight white male who assigns low probability to any of those changing, there is very little selfish benefit in joining the cause - and certainly a social cost to doing so.

Now, this said, I've been faced with embarassing situations as an "ally", where my allies were acting like utter jerks; I call them out on it and move on. The trick is not to be afraid of what the jerks think, to propose one's arguments in a fair-minded way and to stand against unfair-minded arguments, in stark opposition to the "arguments as soldiers" attitude. The fair-minded people will probably know you to be true, and you can only hope that your arguments can somehow get through the jerks' think, irrational, vindictive skulls (if they don't dismiss it outright as "demagogia" or "sophistry").

True enough. But some movements seem to have a high enough concentration of jerks (in your terms) that it's not worth engaging with them. I support at least some kinds of social justice, but I don't think engaging with a social justice movement would be productive.

As for pattern-matching, that's a heuristic that seems hard to avoid when you have little previous information on your interlocutor, and you've had experience before dealing with interlocutors who eventually turned out to be unreceptive jerks from the other side; it can be a very frustrating waste of time and effort and love, and I feel some sympathy for the people who overcomensate in unwelcomingness out of fear of this happening again.

I think the big problem is that it's unacceptable to apply the scientific method. When we find out that one group performs differently on an IQ test (say) from another, even considering the possibility that maybe one group is more intelligent than another is seen as unacceptable; we're expected to start from the axiom that all people are equal, and therefore conclude that the test is biased.

Heck, it's got to the point that many empirical facts are unacceptable. As much as we might wish it were otherwise, race predicts criminality even when we control for every other factor we can think of - but you can't say that openly. (I'm using race as an easy example, but there are similarly unsayable things on sex, sexuality and so forth)

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 25 November 2013 12:51:17AM 6 points [-]

What is "check your privilege"?

In its worst form, the position that you're not allowed to have a view on an issue (or that any possible view is invalid) because you are not the oppressed party.

Another bad form (I'm not going to claim it's worse) is that your privilege means you're not allowed to have any opinion other than the social justice consensus.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 25 November 2013 01:14:56AM 6 points [-]

There's a much saner form that's worth noting, when it is shorthand for "You overlap through at least one of the following categories:heterosexual, male, white, high socioeconomic bracket, and so you are less likely to have personal experience of the sort of problem that is going on here and might not notice when it occurs." This is essentially an issue of an illusion of transparency, in that often members of specific groups have issues that they are more aware of, and the amount of share experience leads to problems of inferential distance.

Essential agreement that the other two meanings are deeply counter-rational. Unfortunately, exactly what someone means by it isn't always clear.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 25 November 2013 02:21:26AM 6 points [-]

You're right about the ignorance part of privilege-- and contrary to SJW, it's quite possible for people in the less privileged categories to be ignorant about at least some of the problems of people in the more privileged categories.

I'd love to find a way to disentangle the ignorance part of the idea of privilege from the power grab, but I haven't figured out how to do it.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 25 November 2013 02:28:15AM *  3 points [-]

My general tactic has been when people use the term to say more or less the version like what you quoted is "problematic" and then explain more or less the ok meaning. Most of the time if you do so, people will be more careful at least for the remainder of the conversation.

On the other hand, at least once when I did so, I was informed that what I was attempting to do was "mansplaining" and "coming from a position of privilege to control what it means to have privilege" and I more or less threw up my hands. I don't know if the individual in question was hopelessly mindkilled or not, but it exceeded my patience level.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 26 November 2013 06:20:54AM *  12 points [-]

I think that "privilege" (in its more reasonable forms) basically refers to a special case of the Typical Mind Fallacy, one where people are prone to dismissing or understating the problems of one group because they don't personally experience them in the same way. For a relatively neutral example, there's this bit in Yvain's post:

I can't deal with noise. If someone's being loud, I can't sleep, I can't study, I can't concentrate, I can't do anything except bang my head against the wall and hope they stop. I once had a noisy housemate. Whenever I asked her to keep it down, she told me I was being oversensitive and should just mellow out. I can't claim total victory here, because she was very neat and kept yelling at me for leaving things out of place, and I told her she needed to just mellow out and you couldn't even tell that there was dust on that dresser anyway. It didn't occur to me then that neatness to her might be as necessary and uncompromisable as quiet was to me, and that this was an actual feature of how our minds processed information rather than just some weird quirk on her part.

I would say that these are pretty much perfect examples of privilege: situations in which the perfectly reasonable problems of one party are completely invisible to the other, to the point that the other cannot even see what the problem is and thinks that the other person is just complaining about nothing.

Similarly, Eliezer has explicitly used the term "metabolic privilege" in pretty much this sense:

The metabolically privileged don't believe in metabolic privilege, since they are able to lose weight by trying! harder! to diet and exercise, and the diet and exercise actually work the way they're supposed to…

So "privilege" is a useful concept, one which has actually already seen use in the LW community. In this context, "check your privilege" is a call to re-evaluate one's assumptions and to take into account the factors which make the situation genuinely problematic for others but a non-problem for you.

Even the "privilege means you're not allowed to have any opinion other than the social justice consensus" sense can be a somewhat reasonable one - there are plausibly positions where people frequently and commonly become guilty of the Typical Mind Fallacy, and where a consensus of the people who've given the issue some thought agrees on this, and people who disagree are likely to just be flat-out wrong. (You could say that it's the SJW version of "read the Sequences".)

A classic SJW example of privilege that I think is justified is the case of sexual harassment of women, where men frequently react to cases of harassment with variations of "I don't see the problem here, if someone did that to me I'd just be flattered". In that case, the fallacy involves an inability to take into account the fact that a behavior that one might consider flattering if it only happened rarely will become unbearable if repeated sufficiently often (obligatory link), and also that men being stronger women creates a sense of accompanying danger that wouldn't be present in the case of women harassing men.

I thought Of Dogs and Lizards was also a nice illustration of these concepts:

This is where things get a bit tricky to understand. Because most examples of social privilege aren’t that straightforward. Let’s take, for example, a basic bit of male privilege:

A man has the privilege of walking past a group of strange women without worrying about being catcalled, or leered at, or having sexual suggestions tossed at him.

A pretty common male response to this point is “that’s a privilege? I would love if a group of women did that to me.”

And that response, right there, is a perfect shining example of male privilege.

To explain how and why, I am going to throw a lengthy metaphor at you. In fact, it may even qualify as parable. Bear with me, because if it makes everything crystal clear, it will be worth the time.

Imagine, if you will, a small house, built someplace cool-ish but not cold, perhaps somewhere in Ohio, and inhabited by a dog and a lizard. The dog is a big dog, something shaggy and nordic, like a Husky or Lapphund – a sled dog, built for the snow. The lizard is small, a little gecko best adapted to living in a muggy rainforest somewhere. Neither have ever lived anywhere else, nor met any other creature; for the purposes of this exercise, this small house is the entirety of their universe.

The dog, much as you might expect, turns on the air conditioning. Really cranks it up, all the time – this dog was bred for hunting moose on the tundra, even the winter here in Ohio is a little warm for his taste. If he can get the house to fifty (that’s ten C, for all you weirdo metric users out there), he’s almost happy.

The gecko can’t do much to control the temperature – she’s got tiny little fingers, she can’t really work the thermostat or turn the dials on the A/C. Sometimes, when there’s an incandescent light nearby, she can curl up near it and pick up some heat that way, but for the most part, most of the time, she just has to live with what the dog chooses. This is, of course, much too cold for her – she’s a gecko. Not only does she have no fur, she’s cold-blooded! The temperature makes her sluggish and sick, and it permeates her entire universe. Maybe here and there she can find small spaces of warmth, but if she ever wants to actually do anything, to eat or watch TV or talk to the dog, she has to move through the cold house.

Now, remember, she’s never known anything else. This is just how the world is – cold and painful and unhealthy for her, even dangerous, and she copes as she knows how. But maybe some small part of her thinks, “hey, it shouldn’t be like this,” some tiny growing seed of rebellion that says who she is right next to a lamp is who she should be all the time. And she and the dog are partners, in a sense, right? They live in this house together, they affect each other, all they’ve got is each other. So one day, she sees the dog messing with the A/C again, and she says, “hey. Dog. Listen, it makes me really cold when you do that.”

The dog kind of looks at her, and shrugs, and keeps turning the dial.

This is not because the dog is a jerk.

This is because the dog has no fucking clue what the lizard even just said.

Consider: he’s a nordic dog in a temperate climate. The word “cold” is completely meaningless to him. He’s never been cold in his entire life. He lives in an environment that is perfectly suited to him, completely aligned with his comfort level, a world he grew up with the tools to survive and control, built right in to the way he was born.

So the lizard tries to explain it to him. She says, “well, hey, how would you like it if I turned the temperature down on you?”

The dog goes, “uh… sounds good to me.”

What she really means, of course, is “how would you like it if I made you cold.” But she can’t make him cold. She doesn’t have the tools, or the power, their shared world is not built in a way that allows it – she simply is not physically capable of doing the same harm to him that he’s doing to her. She could make him feel pain, probably, I’m sure she could stab him with a toothpick or put something nasty in his food or something, but this specific form of pain, he will never, ever understand – it’s not something that can be inflicted on him, given the nature of the world they live in and the way it’s slanted in his favor in this instance. So he doesn’t get what she’s saying to him, and keeps hurting her.

Most privilege is like this.

A straight cisgendered male American, because of who he is and the culture he lives in, does not and cannot feel the stress, creepiness, and outright threat behind a catcall the way a woman can. His upbringing has given him fur and paws big enough to turn the dials and plopped him down in temperate Ohio. When she says “you don’t have to put up with being leered at,” what she means is, “you don’t ever have to be wary of sexual interest.” That’s male privilege. Not so much that something doesn’t happen to men, but that it will never carry the same weight, even if it does.

So what does this mean? And what are we asking you to do, when we say “check your privilege” or “your privilege is showing”?

Well, quite simply, we want you to understand when you have fur. And, by extension, when that means you should listen. See, the dog’s not an asshole just for turning down the temperature. As far as he knows, that’s fine, right? He genuinely cannot feel the pain it causes, he doesn’t even know about it. No one thinks he’s a bad person for totally accidentally doing harm.

Here’s where he becomes an asshole: the minute the gecko says, “look, you’re hurting me,” and he says, “what? No, I’m not. This ‘cold’ stuff doesn’t even exist, I should know, I’ve never felt it. You’re imagining it. It’s not there. It’s fine because of fur, because of paws, because look, you can curl up around this lamp, because sometimes my water dish is too tepid and I just shut up and cope, obviously temperature isn’t this big deal you make it, and you’ve never had to deal with mange anyway, my life is just as hard.”

And then the dog just ignores it. Because he can. That’s the privilege that comes with having fur, with being a dog in Ohio. He doesn’t have to think about it. He doesn’t have to live daily with the cold. He has no idea what he’s talking about, and he will never, ever be forced to learn. He can keep making the lizard miserable until the day they both die, and he will never suffer for it beyond the mild annoyance of her complaining. And she, meanwhile, gets to try not to freeze to death.

Comment author: Lumifer 26 November 2013 04:18:31PM 4 points [-]

privilege: situations in which the perfectly reasonable problems of one party are completely invisible to the other, to the point that the other cannot even see what the problem is and thinks that the other person is just complaining about nothing.

That definition is incomplete without having power mentioned in it.

For example, it's culturally difficult for "straight cisgendered male Americans" to show weakness. It's not a problem for women. Take the stereotypical situation when a couple is lost and the man refuses to ask for directions. The woman is annoyed at him. Can he tell her "check your privilege"?

Even the "privilege means you're not allowed to have any opinion other than the social justice consensus" sense can be a somewhat reasonable one

I strongly disagree. It cannot be.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 26 November 2013 07:27:07PM 3 points [-]

For example, it's culturally difficult for "straight cisgendered male Americans" to show weakness. It's not a problem for women. Take the stereotypical situation when a couple is lost and the man refuses to ask for directions. The woman is annoyed at him. Can he tell her "check your privilege"?

Depends on who you ask. I would say yes, some would say no.

I strongly disagree. It cannot be.

Right, a literal "never allowed to have" cannot be. What I meant to say was that positions that might easily seem like "you are never allowed to have this opinion" might actually be positions of "this position is so likely to be wrong as to not be worth wasting our time with", which can sometimes (though definitely not always) be reasonable.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 26 November 2013 04:38:39PM *  1 point [-]

Even the "privilege means you're not allowed to have any opinion other than the social justice consensus" sense can be a somewhat reasonable one

I strongly disagree. It cannot be.

Are you simply going to say you disagree with Kaj here on this last part or actually respond to their comment, especially say the end of the sentence you cut off where Kaj said:

there are plausibly positions where people frequently and commonly become guilty of the Typical Mind Fallacy, and where a consensus of the people who've given the issue some thought agrees on this, and people who disagree are likely to just be flat-out wrong. (You could say that it's the SJW version of "read the Sequences".)

Comment author: Lumifer 25 November 2013 01:42:48AM 1 point [-]

You overlap through at least one of the following categories:heterosexual, male, white, high socioeconomic bracket

An interesting set. So let's see who doesn't overlap at least one category -- it got to be a lesbian (or at least bi) poor non-white woman.

So everybody who is not a lesbian poor non-white woman (which I would estimate to be 98-99% of the population) is vulnerable to the cry of Check Your Privilege! Interesting...

Comment author: JoshuaZ 25 November 2013 01:46:48AM 0 points [-]

Well, in the sane version this isn't about vulnerability or conversation point scoring/status but actually trying to make an observation.

And in the sane contexts, most of them aren't going to be relevant. If for example, one discussing say voting rights issues, I don't think (sane) people are going to argue that sexual orientation matters, even as race and income might.

Although, if you do want to focus on how narrow it can get, I've also seem to the term in the context of people who are Christian not realizing how uncomfortable people from other religious backgrounds can easily be in parts of the US, and especially how that applies to atheists. But again, I don't think the argument would be made that all the issues are relevant at the same time.

Comment author: Lumifer 25 November 2013 02:20:57AM *  4 points [-]

but actually trying to make an observation.

So, maybe, make it? There is, of course, the trivial point that for any issue there are people who had personal experience with it and people who had not, but "check your privilege" is very much not about personal experiences but about treating people solely as members of a certain class.

There is a reasonable way to put what you're trying to say -- it would go along the lines of "You are making assumptions X, Y, and Z and they don't work in this situation because of A, B, and C and so what you expect to happen doesn't". But "check your privilege" is not that -- it's a shorthand for "sit down, shut up, and feel guilty".

Comment author: fubarobfusco 26 November 2013 06:15:03PM 1 point [-]

What is "check your privilege"?

In its worst form, the position that you're not allowed to have a view on an issue (or that any possible view is invalid) because you are not the oppressed party.

How about in its best form?

Comment author: TheOtherDave 26 November 2013 08:14:31PM *  4 points [-]

That when I have advantages you don't, I am less likely to notice the problems in our shared environment that my advantages compensate for than you are, and therefore when you discuss a problem in our shared environment that I don't experience, I ought not treat my own experience as definitive on the matter.

EDIT: When used in the second person imperative specifically, as here, it carries the additional implication that the person to whom it is addressed is violating that normative rule.

Comment author: pragmatist 26 November 2013 09:59:19PM 1 point [-]

As much as we might wish it were otherwise, race predicts criminality even when we control for every other factor we can think of - but you can't say that openly.

For real? That surprises me. Do you have a link to the relevant empirical research?

Comment author: lmm 26 November 2013 10:05:29PM 1 point [-]

Saw it in a number of threads here but I didn't keep the links, sorry.

Comment author: bramflakes 27 November 2013 06:53:19PM 0 points [-]

I often see this cited but I've never gone through and checked the validity myself.

If you take the blogging equivalent of a wiki-walk through the HBD-sphere you'll come across other data.

Comment author: Error 24 November 2013 08:24:52PM *  2 points [-]

Its main message is to insist on the following sequence as everyone's moral responsibility: once you say something that someone perceives as hurtful, you're morally obliged not to "question their feelings", but to perceive that you screwed up, to feel bad, to apologize, and change your behavior so this doesn't happen again.

I didn't get this impression; that is, the impression I got from the video wasn't "you should accept your interlocutor's perspective as the Only True Perspective" but "don't give Weasel Apologies."

Sometimes an apology is socially called for, but the speaker doesn't believe they did anything wrong. The most obvious examples are students (or office workers!) having an argument, in which a teacher or boss demands that one or both parties apologize to each other. Outright refusal may not be an option. A Weasel Apology is likely to result, but is pretty much morally neutral under the circumstances.

The difficulty arises when you have a Bottom Line problem. e.g., your mind should go:

"Did I do something wrong?"

  • Yes. (Apologize.)

  • No. (Don't.)

But sometimes it actually goes:

"Uh oh, I'm supposed to apologize now. Will that make me look like I did something wrong?"

  • Yes. (Well that won't do. Weasel it!)

Note the absence of an actual wrongness-check in the second form. I think this is what the video is actually railing against, IMO justifiably.

But there is a third version:

"Did I do something wrong?"

  • Yes. (Will an apology be used against me?)

    • No. (Apologize.)

    • Yes. (Weasel it.)

  • No. (Is an apology socially called for? )

    • Yes. (Weasel it.)

This actually does have a wrongness-check, but still results in Weasel Apologies. The video does not cover this case. I'm not sure being incomplete is a strike against it, though.

Edited to add: There is an ambiguity here, in that there's a difference between internalizing that you've done something wrong and internalizing the moral system of an accuser. I interpreted the video as talking about #1, but it seems at least a few others interpreted it as #2. Internalization[1] is good to do and bad to weasel out of, assuming whatever you did is wrong according to your moral code. Internalization[2] is shitty to demand, but probably a bad idea to weasel out of too. If it's being demanded for Political Reasons, they're going to notice. Best option is just plain refusal, if possible.

Comment author: Anatoly_Vorobey 24 November 2013 10:58:20PM *  6 points [-]

I didn't get this impression; that is, the impression I got from the video wasn't "you should accept your interlocutor's perspective as the Only True Perspective" but "don't give Weasel Apologies."

Then I believe that you missed it. What you say was in the video (and I mentioned it), but the part about accepting the supposed victim's claims of being hurt as proof that you sinned (your "Only True Perspective" goes a bit too far) is there and is the backbone of the video.

The video's complete list of claims, in a brief form:

  1. You will slip up, but when you've done something crappy, you have a choice: either apologize and regain your awesome, or be a fartbag.
  2. Analogy: I stepped on your toe, you yell in pain, and I blame you for "standing everywhere".
  3. Intent is irrelevant: "I understand you didn't mean to step on their toe, but you still did, and you caused it, so apologize".
  4. Don't blame people for how they feel, blame yourself, you've caused it.
  5. Do feel bad.
  6. When apologizing, don't think you're asking for forgiveness.
  7. Figure out what you did wrong, believe it, understand it, internalize it
  8. Figure out why you did the hurtful things and provide context.
  9. Don't just express sympathy, you have to accept the blame.
  10. Tell people you won't do it again.
  11. Don't think you're losing or that it's a zero-sum game. Apologizing is a sign of strength.
  12. Do in fact change your behavior.

Points 2-4 basically set up the premise that someone's feelings being hurt by your words means you've done something bad and should apologize. You're not allowed to question the appropriateness of those feelings, and you're not allowed to introduce your intent. Your own moral judgement is never mentioned.

Comment author: Benquo 23 November 2013 11:24:30PM *  2 points [-]

Here are some issues I'd like to see covered in the future:

  • Sometimes person A does something that causes person B to feel pain, and it doesn't seem like person A did anything wrong. What kind of apology, if any, is appropriate?
  • How do I tell when something really isn't my fault? What kind of harm-causing should I apologize for?
  • What do I do if someone tries to leverage my apology to extract some kind of additional concession from me, or I expect that this might happen?
  • Suppose I think someone should apologize to me for something. What should I do about it, if anything?
Comment author: TheOtherDave 23 November 2013 11:45:44PM 1 point [-]

For my own part, I find "I'm sorry that what I did hurt you" appropriate in the first case, declining to concede appropriate in the third, and asking for an apology appropriate in the fourth. The second is more complicated.

Comment author: Ritalin 23 November 2013 09:22:26PM 3 points [-]

One thing that always confused me was forcing others to apologize. Starting from school, putting two kids who hate each other's guts, and demanding that they apologize to each other whether they mean it or not. What's the point? Who does this help? What does this achieve?

Comment author: RichardKennaway 24 November 2013 10:25:26AM 7 points [-]

What's the point? Who does this help? What does this achieve?

It helps the teacher establish their own authority over the children.

Comment author: Ritalin 24 November 2013 10:53:26AM 1 point [-]

Hardly; if the apologies are false, the teacher is undermining their own authority by teaching the children to lie and subterfuge their way around them. Once they've learned to dissociate their image-to-the-teacher with the image-to-themselves, it's a slppery slope to getting pelted with paper in the back of the head when you write on the blackboard, among many other forms of torment children heap on their masters.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 24 November 2013 12:05:28PM 4 points [-]

The teacher is exhibiting their power to make the children tell a lie in public, a lie that everyone knows is a lie. The teacher is demonstrating that what is very important to the children is not at all important to the teacher, that the teacher can make the children perform this ritual, then shut up and return to their seats because the teacher tells them to.

Comment author: Ritalin 24 November 2013 03:59:12PM 0 points [-]

... Is assering this kind of power ("authority" connotes people being willing to "listen" more than "obey", as far as I can tell) a terminal value in the teacher's mind?! Because this sounds amazingly pointless. I would think a teacher's desire is to mold the students' mind to their satisfaction, propagate their memes, etc. etc. not just... make them execute pointless gestures just to show who's boss.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 24 November 2013 05:09:52PM 2 points [-]

I would think a teacher's desire is to mold the students' mind to their satisfaction, propagate their memes, etc. etc. not just... make them execute pointless gestures just to show who's boss.

Showing them who's boss is a precondition for all the rest.

At this point I should say that I'm not sure how much this sort of behaviour is a good thing and how much a bad. Hypothetically, one can confabulate all sorts of scenarios either way. But I have no experience of teaching children.

Comment author: Ritalin 24 November 2013 08:19:25PM *  2 points [-]

Ah, but we all have experience in being taught, don't we. Some good, some bad. We would do well, I think, to give a long, hard look to the way we were taught, not only regarding how it may have affected us, but also in how it might affect our children, were they to be subjected to similar treatments.

Because, in the face of authority performing such seemingly pointless gestures, I have half a mind to teach my children to reject such orders on general principle, and say so to their teachers in no uncertain terms—without being rude about it, which might be a bit of a challenge.

Point is, when my kids grow, I want them to be the sort that would say no in Milgram's Experiment from the moment the victim revoked consent, if not earlier. (Also, intuitively one-box on Newcomb's problem, etc. etc.)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 25 November 2013 01:07:12PM 5 points [-]

When children can evaluate good ideas, it makes sense to tell them to obey the authority when a request is good, and to disobey when the request is harmful.

But before that age, the obedience in the Milgram's experiment and the obedience in "please stop hitting your younger sibling" or "please stop talking now so we can learn the alphabet" is probably processed by the same algorithm.

Comment author: Ritalin 25 November 2013 02:10:41PM -1 points [-]

Very pertinent. So it's a matter of age... well, we would do well not to underestimate our kids' ability to learn; it' surprising what they can achieve when nobody's told them they shouldn't be able to yet. Nevertheless, it might be a good idea to get a firm grip on what the state of the art in developmental psychology says on how to best go about teaching them right from wrong.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 25 November 2013 04:19:08PM 3 points [-]

I agree that children are often capable of understanding and doing more than is typically expected of them. And sometimes they are not. And sometimes they start doing it correctly, only to ruin it later; which is probably an inevitable phase in learning a new skill.

Just like it is easy to make a mistake of automatically assuming that children are not capable of something, and not giving them really a chance, it is also easy to make a mistake of seeing a child doing something correctly for five minutes, and assuming that nothing can go wrong later. In some environments the former kind of error is typical, but I have also seen (and done) the latter.

A high school where I was teaching made a new rule that students are allowed to ask a teacher about a context of what they are taught, such as why do they need to learn something and how is it related to the long-term goals. (There was a long list of new rules, most of them applause lights.) At first sight, it seems like a good idea: the teacher should explain a motivation for teaching something, and if they forget, it is great if the students can ask freely. But in real life this rule was abused heavily. Imagine being asked again and again after each sentence: "why is it necessary that we learn this?", especially when it's made obvious that the person asking does not really care about the answer (because they don't even bother listening to the answer), they only enjoy using their new power that allows them to completely stop the education. (Later the list of the rules was updated in a way that neutralized most of them, such as: "students have a right to do X... but only if the teacher considers it appropriate", and then removed and forgotten.)

So, having this experience, I can easily imagine what would happen if the same high school students received a lesson about Milgram's experiments and why it is wrong to obey authority blindly. Suddenly turning off their iPhones would become an evil comparable with being ordered to commit a genocide; they would refuse heroically, socially rewarding each other for being so heroic.

Perhaps this could be fixed by attaching a minor cost to the disobedience. Such as: You are allowed to refuse an unreasonable request, but you later have to provide a written explanation of what was requested from you, how you refused it, and why do you think it was the right thing to do.

Comment author: bramflakes 23 November 2013 10:00:45PM 3 points [-]

It teaches them to cower in the shadow of the Leviathan. The reasoning being perhaps, that if kids can't be taught to value behaving ethically for its own sake, they ought to behave ethically anyway so that they aren't shamed in public. An example of Goodhart's Law?

Comment author: Ritalin 23 November 2013 10:36:29PM 0 points [-]

I don't get it.

Comment author: Benquo 23 November 2013 11:08:05PM 2 points [-]

Goodhart's law is the tendency, when using a proxy to measure a desideratum, to optimize for the proxy, rather than the desideratum.

In this case, the desideratum is feeling genuine regret about harming others, and the proxy is apologizing.

Comment author: lmm 24 November 2013 11:33:18PM 2 points [-]

It enforces the habit of apologizing, which will eventually develop into genuine feeling. A lot of ethical behavior is learned the same way, through politeness - to a kid, "please" is just a magic word for getting ice cream, but genuine gratitude develops from this.

Comment author: Nornagest 26 November 2013 11:04:35PM 1 point [-]

Fake it 'til you make it. The theory is that going through the motions will eventually inspire prosocial behavior with or without any initial feeling attached.

Okay, that's a little glib, and there's some evidence that it doesn't work too well when it's externally imposed. But those studies (Cialdini cites some, for example) were generally done on adults, and it might work better on children; alternately, it might be more about inculcating the forms of prosocial behavior and trusting that they'll get hooked up to the right emotional content later, when kids' empathetic faculties are better developed.

Comment author: Benquo 23 November 2013 08:19:34PM *  2 points [-]

This is an important skill that it would be good for us to get better at! Thanks for sharing this thing that tries to help.

I don't think this is quite enough, though - it's advice on a very abstract level, without examples, and without advice on how to recognize occasions where apology is necessary. And it felt like being browbeaten and told I was bad, not like being given helpful advice.

Please someone else let me know if you learned how to implement a specific behavior from this, that you otherwise wouldn't have learned how to implement.

But thanks again for bringing up the issue at all - good sources on this would be very helpful, and when you mention this as a problem, you increase the probability that someone will try to solve it.

Comment author: passive_fist 23 November 2013 08:44:31PM *  3 points [-]

I agree; it felt as if the video is trying to browbeat you and force you to apologize. It seemed that the person in the video was himself angry and confused and this made it hard to watch with a "Let's learn a new skill" mindset.

It would have been better if this post could have actually linked to the research about human politeness and how it fits into the instrumental rationality framework. There has been a lot of research on this. A simple google search for 'rationality politeness' reveals a wealth of results.

Comment author: Benquo 23 November 2013 11:11:50PM *  1 point [-]

I think a lot of the tone came from the pacing - the video was edited to mash together a bunch of sentences with minimal breaks in between. This made it much faster than normal speech, so it came across as a barrage of admonitions without allowing time to think about them in between. This was probably not intentional, and the speaker was probably not quite as angry as he sounds.

Comment author: passive_fist 23 November 2013 11:33:50PM 1 point [-]

True, I was thinking about mentioning this in my reply above but I felt that criticizing the video would distract from the main point. Editing cuts in a video can be great, occasionally, to provide emphasis or keep the viewer's attention, but yes, here it seems they were overused and this reduces the effectiveness of the communication.

Comment author: Ritalin 23 November 2013 09:15:09PM *  0 points [-]

Hardly. If you wish, I could go on to explicitly analyze this video bit by bit in order to achieve a more calm presentation of the ideas therein. It would go something like: "Frequent mistake when apologizing, then how to do it right"

I have found myself making most of the mistakes he listed, some of which I have seen in bullies, most notably detaching oneself from the feelings one causes ("I'm sorry that you feel hurt" rather than "I'm sorry that I hurt you") to outright blaming the other person for having feelings at all ("I'm sorry that you're such a whiny pansy who can't take a joke/some criticism/a bit of tough luck. Suck it up (like a man)!")

But anger and "browbeating" are perfectly legitimate ways to present something that you care very much about; most of the Sequences are written in such a lecturing, passionate tone.

As for that research, I would be thankful if anyone could help me with that, since it's a huge lot of work to review and incorporate it properly, and I don't have a huge lot of time, what with college and all.

Comment author: passive_fist 23 November 2013 09:33:58PM *  5 points [-]

If you wish, I could go on to explicitly analyze this video bit by bit in order to achieve a more calm presentation of the ideas therein. It would go something like: "Frequent mistake when apologizing, then how to do it right"

Yes, that kind of format would be a much better way to present the ideas. It would then be easier to have a constructive argument about them. Provided, of course, that the reason is given for why said mistakes are actually mistakes.

But anger and "browbeating" are perfectly legitimate ways to present something that you care very much about; most of the Sequences are written in such a lecturing, passionate tone.

The tone of the sequences is far from emotionally neutral, and 'passionate' would be a good word to describe many parts of the sequences, but the way is this is often done is by providing a justification, building up to the main point, then using a passionate form of presentation to emphasize the important take-away points. It seems that this video skips right to the 'passion' part without addressing the 'why we should even care' part.

And that seems like the most important part to me. If you don't mind me saying, I get the impression that you might be missing that part as well. Politeness is all about human psychology and interaction and our in-built sense of empathy towards others. The correctness of an argument has little to do with how politely it is presented, but its impact on other people, on the other hand, does. So it would be useful examining this a little bit more deeply. Again, this is something that is often done in the sequences: things are broken down deeply and a 'view from above' is taken.

Comment author: Benquo 23 November 2013 11:25:41PM *  1 point [-]

I could go on to explicitly analyze this video bit by bit in order to achieve a more calm presentation of the ideas therein.

That seems likely to be more helpful.