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Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 28, chapter 99-101

7 Post author: palladias 12 December 2013 05:10AM

This is a new thread to discuss Eliezer Yudkowsky’s Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality and anything related to it. This thread is intended for discussing chapter 99, 100, and 101The previous thread is at nearly 500 comments. 

There is now a site dedicated to the story at hpmor.com, which is now the place to go to find the authors notes and all sorts of other goodies. AdeleneDawner has kept an archive of Author’s Notes. (This goes up to the notes for chapter 76, and is now not updating. The authors notes from chapter 77 onwards are on hpmor.com.) 

The first 5 discussion threads are on the main page under the harry_potter tag.  Threads 6 and on (including this one) are in the discussion section using its separate tag system.

Also: 1,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6,  7,  8,  9,  10,  11,  12,  13,  1415,  16,  17,  18,  19,  20,  21,  22,  23,  24,  252627

Spoiler Warning: this thread is full of spoilers. With few exceptions, spoilers for MOR and canon are fair game to post, without warning or rot13. More specifically:

You do not need to rot13 anything about HP:MoR or the original Harry Potter series unless you are posting insider information from Eliezer Yudkowsky which is not supposed to be publicly available (which includes public statements by Eliezer that have been retracted).

If there is evidence for X in MOR and/or canon then it’s fine to post about X without rot13, even if you also have heard privately from Eliezer that X is true. But you should not post that “Eliezer said X is true” unless you use rot13.

Comments (365)

Comment author: Algernoq 23 May 2014 03:40:42AM 4 points [-]

I have an alternative explanation for Harry's Dark Side: Harry's mother is narcissistic, impressed by education, and not particularly smart.

"by far the simplest explanation for this unverbalizable fear of yours is just the fear of losing your fantasy of greatness, of disappointing the people who believe in you" (ch. 77) is textbook thinking for a child of a narcissistic parent. The child feels perpetually ignored because the narcissistic parent needs validation from the child's accomplishments but refuses to actually listen to the child. Thus, the child is spurred to ever greater heights of intellectual achievement by the parent's need for more status and withholding of love.

"The black rage began to drain away, as it dawned on him that...his family wasn't in danger" (ch. 5) suggests that Harry's Dark Side is Harry desperately trying to stay close to his family.

Typically, children of narcissistic parents inherit either narcissistic or people-pleasing traits. Comparing Harry’s personality to these traits (google “Children of narcissistic parents”, 1st link) shows that Harry has textbook narcissist traits:

Grandiose sense of self-importance? Check. He wants to “optimize” the entire Universe

Obsessed with himself? Check. He appears to only care about people who are smarter or more powerful than him -- people who can help him. He also has contempt for most students and their interests (Quidditch, etc.)

Goals are selfish? Check. Harry claims to want to save everyone, but in practice he tries to increase his own power most quickly. The saving-Hermione thing is still selfish because Harry sees Hermione in the same way he sees his mother -- weak in many ways and bound by emotions and convention, but someone Harry must impress. “It’s disrespectful to her, to think someone could only like her in that way” (ch. 91) makes sense in that a child would be disgusted by Oedipal implications. If Harry’s mother was not narcissistic, then Harry would not have worked so hard to impress Hermione and would have been less disgusted by the thought of being sexually attracted to her.

Troubles with normal relationships? Check. Harry is playing high-stakes mind games with those he is closest to (Quirrell, Draco, Hermione, Dumbeldore), which is emphatically not normal friend behavior. Harry has contempt for nearly everyone else, and is currently hiding alone under an invisibility cloak.

Becomes furious if criticized? Check. When Snape mocked Harry in Potions class, Harry tried to destroy Snape’s career. Quirrell explained, “When it looked like you might lose, you unsheathed your claws, heedless of the danger. You escalated, and then you escalated again.” (Ch. 19)

Has fantasies of unbound success, power, intelligence, etc.? Check. Harry wants to conquer the entire Universe with the power of his intelligence.

Believes that he is special and should only be around other high-status people? Check. Harry avoids average students when possible, and certainly does not hang out with them for fun. A possible exception is Harry’s army, but minimal text is devoted to Harry instructing them, while much text explains how powerful (in battle) and high-status the students in the army have become. In Harry’s mind, the army is a tool to use and an opportunity to show off, not an opportunity to give back and help friends improve their skills for their own sake.

Requires extreme admiration for everything? Check. Harry takes anything less than admiration for his brilliance as an insult, and responds by striving for new levels of intellectual achievement and arrogance, until the others recognize his dominance. Quirrell’s lesson on how to lose described how to avoid making powerful enemies, not how to empathize and care for others -- the insatiable need for admiration is merely delayed and repressed, not corrected.

Feels entitled - has unreasonable expectations of special treatment? Check. Harry requires subservience from the school administration, and special magic items such as the time-turner. “McGonagall said, "but I do have a very special something else to give you. I see that I have greatly wronged you in my thoughts, Mr. Potter...this is an item which is ordinarily lent only to children who have already shown themselves to be highly responsible” (Ch. 14).

Takes advantage of others to further his own need? Check. "I only used you in ways that made you stronger. That's what it means to be used by a friend." (Ch. 97)

Does not recognize the feelings of others? Check. “Er, can I take it from this that you have been through puberty?" (Ch. 87)

Envious or believes they are envied? Check. Quirrell said to Harry, “You have everything now that I wanted then. All that I know of human nature says that I should hate you. And yet I do not. It is a very strange thing.” (Ch. 74)

Behaves arrogantly? Check. “Minerva's body swayed with the force of that blow, with the sheer raw lese majeste. Even Severus looked shocked.” (Ch. 19) I can’t think offhand of a single instance when Harry is not arrogant.

"The Drama of the Gifted Child" by Dr. Alice Miller (Google for the .pdf) spells out what a child raised by one narcissistic parent and one distant parent typically looks like. It looks a lot like H.J.P.E.V.

I can relate personally -- my mother drove me to extreme academic success so she could feel good about herself. I succeeded, then (99th percentile on standardized tests, attended a prestigous and excellent college that I will not name here) but it harmed my ability to relate to people, to distinguish my actual dreams from my mother’s grandiosity/insecurity, and to succeed academically once I had surpassed my mother’s ability to judge progress. When I first found HPMOR I was overjoyed that I was not alone in my arrogance and hope for immortality. It’s only recently that I realized why that is, and what that cost. “Every time I call on it... it uses up my childhood.” (Ch. 91). Suffice it to say that I studied obsessively for years.

I thought about spoiler-warning this to avoid memetic hazard, but apparently on this site “that which can be destroyed by the truth should be”.

Comment author: [deleted] 23 May 2014 09:41:41AM *  3 points [-]

While this is an excellent explanation, I can't help but wonder if it's not metafictional. Remember, Harry is "almost but not quite" like 18-year-old Eliezer, and I would not be at all surprised if, well, certain stereotypes about pushing one's child relentlessly (usually labelled "Jewish mother" but actually trans-ethnic) held true for 18!Eliezer, and therefore for his model of Harry.

As a show of respect and allegiance, I can say that they definitely held true for my mother and thus for me, and it's only after spending a lot of time out of her house and away from her influence that I've even remotely mellowed down into a decent adult. Actually, my mother still manages to give me neurotic freak-outs whenever I visit home, due to the massive swings in her evaluations of my life choices that can take place inside five minutes. Like, yeah, I was the dickface kid who mentally compared himself with Paul Atreides.

By the way, the easiest way to deal with the arrogance is just to continually take note of how blatantly unadaptive and useless it actually is. If you're really trying to get what you want by blatantly using other people (and this is not nearly as evil in real life as in fiction: in real life, this is what a purely professional relationship actually is and everyone knows it), then quite often the most useful move is to acknowledge that status hierarchies are situation-dependent and treat them as just another component of the situation, subject to optimization like everything else, rather than as a component of your utility in that situation.

(Wow, that sounded a lot less sociopathic in my mind.)

Comment author: Algernoq 24 May 2014 03:39:34AM 1 point [-]

I agree that HPMOR is intended to describe reality: the entertaining story is the vehicle meant to entertain, and the theoretical content is the payload meant to be remembered. Long before I found HPMOR, I reacted to the death of a family member by planning how to defeat death with science, because nothing less would give me safety. I was baffled that most people preferred to cry for a bit and then forget about it, without making any effort to save themselves or even to fix the particular problem that caused the one death. I read somewhere that EY had a similar experience and reaction, that is mirrored in HJPEV's reaction to Hermione's death.

I've also mellowed out (e.g. learned, mostly, to seek my own approval instead of my mother's or that of managers, etc.) I'm glad to hear you can relate. There are many similar labels that might fit: "Jewish mother", "tiger mother", "helicopter parent", etc.

I suspect most people here have not had this experience, and many that have can't not idolize their parents, due to denial. Harry claims "Suppressed memory is a load of pseudoscience! People do not repress traumatic memories, they remember them all too well for the rest of their lives!" (Ch. 6), but this is inconsistent with "Her mind was slow to remember [the negative information] for a few seconds, which frightened her" (Ch. 84), and denial is a well-known defense mechanism against trauma. The American Psychological Association website says "shock and denial are typical" reactions to traumatic experiences, a well-known historical example is FDR's refusal to accept the incurability of his polio, and I can attest from personal experience that denial/repression sometimes happens.

I'm not sure what you mean by "acknowledge that status hierachies are situation-dependent". It sounds like you mean that it's usually best not to challenge higher-status or higher-arrogance people, because in most situations that's the best way to get what you want. This matches my experience at least in professional situations -- challenging people risks the failure of negotiations or looking incompetent, and is rarely rewarding because if you actually are right or higher-status you can get the same benefit by using your knowledge/skill in a less confrontational way.

I don't agree that purely professional relationships are optimal for work relationships -- I have learned more and gotten more done (both for myself and for my manager) when I feel that the manager truly cares about me and wants me to succeed, and when I truly care about the manager and the team's success.

I'm not bothered by well-meant but sociopathic-sounding thoughts -- if I was, I would not have finished HPMOR. The question of how self-awareness changes moral responsibility is problematic, because there appears to be no scientifically-testable moral authority as well as many opportunities to claim ignorance/feelings as a mask for thoughtful evil intent. That said, I want to do the right, moral, thing, in the hope that there truly is a right thing to do and that my search for meaning is not just my reaction to loss of my mother's imposition of good/evil judgments.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 May 2014 06:41:07AM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure what you mean by "acknowledge that status hierachies are situation-dependent".

There are different kinds of status. My adviser might have higher science-status than me, but I have higher otaku-status than him. The situation determines which sort of status is salient.

I don't agree that purely professional relationships are optimal for work relationships -- I have learned more and gotten more done (both for myself and for my manager) when I feel that the manager truly cares about me and wants me to succeed, and when I truly care about the manager and the team's success.

Oh no, I didn't mean they're optimal. But they're a very useful fallback when you realize that you're just never going to actually like someone but still need to maintain collegiality with them.

Long before I found HPMOR, I reacted to the death of a family member by planning how to defeat death with science, because nothing less would give me safety. I was baffled that most people preferred to cry for a bit and then forget about it, without making any effort to save themselves or even to fix the particular problem that caused the one death. I read somewhere that EY had a similar experience and reaction, that is mirrored in HJPEV's reaction to Hermione's death.

I will admit that I never thought of transhumanism on my own, but I've ended up endorsing it simply because I can't actually think of an involuntary or unwanted death where I actually thought that we shouldn't have saved the person even if we could have. Then again, I only ever lost a grandmother and grandfather who were extremely old, and seemingly quite ready to pass on.

Harry claims "Suppressed memory is a load of pseudoscience! People do not repress traumatic memories, they remember them all too well for the rest of their lives!" (Ch. 6), but this is inconsistent with "Her mind was slow to remember [the negative information] for a few seconds, which frightened her" (Ch. 84), and denial is a well-known defense mechanism against trauma. The American Psychological Association website says "shock and denial are typical" reactions to traumatic experiences

I think it depends if you merely sustain a trauma or actually develop PTSD.

That said, I want to do the right, moral, thing, in the hope that there truly is a right thing to do and that my search for meaning is not just my reaction to loss of my mother's imposition of good/evil judgments.

Well of course there's a right thing to do. I'm just not going to tell you what it is, because I want to know if other people's conclusions when they research the issue converge with my own. :-p

Comment author: Random 08 April 2014 03:08:47PM *  1 point [-]

My theory about HPMOR and what is going on.

"Voldemort's final avenue is to seduce a victim and drain the life from them over a long period; in which case Voldemort would be weak compared to his former power."

But raw power is nothing compared to intellect and Harry Potter seems like the best possible candidate for resurrecting this way.

  • Quirrell and Harry both have a dark side, and dark sides are parts of Volondemort soul. They are horcruxes basically.

  • Quirrell's dark side took control over good old Quirinus Quirrell. He is in the same condition Harry was when he was under dementation.

  • Quirrell is trying to push Harry to his dark side. He tried dementation, he tried to take all Harry's money and friends away, he killed Hermione. And he gave Harry his diary to "seduce a victim and drain the life from them over a long period".

What we will see next? Quirrell doesn't have much time so he will act now.

I think Quirrell will kill Dumbledore and provoke Harry to fight against Death itself. They need a Dumbledore wand + resurrection stone + Harry's cloak + magic resonance + some Quirrell's and Harry's wisdom. And I don't think that we will see happy ending. There will be a disaster.

If plan fails then Voldy has a golden plate on Voyager as a backup horcrux.

p.s. Apologize for my English :)

Comment author: wobster109 03 April 2014 04:20:59PM 2 points [-]

I'm a bit bothered by Dumbledore's behavior in 101. He's supposed to be at least reasonably wise and reasonably cunning, with a dead brother and a room full of gravestones. He knows all about prioritizing people's lives. He's just had the first student fatality in 50 years, and now he almost had a second. So how could he possibly have taken Filch's side?

Comment author: CillianSvendsen 20 July 2014 06:59:44AM *  2 points [-]

From the Azkaban chapters:

From what Amelia heard, Dumbledore had gotten smarter toward the end of the war, mostly due to Mad-Eye's nonstop nagging; but had relapsed into his foolish mercies the instant Voldemort's body was found.

Dumbledore's lesson from his room isn't that you needed to shut up and multiply, it's that war is so terrible that you must be willing to sacrifice anything so prevent it from occurring again. He prioritized people's lives to stop a war, but he's not willing to sacrifice anyone except to prevent more violence. Dumbledore never wanted to sacrifice his sacred values for the greater good, he was forced to by the war. From "Taboo Tradeoffs":

He had to choose between losing his war and his brother. Albus Dumbledore knows, he learned in the *worst possible way, that there are limits to the value of one life; and it almost broke his sanity to admit it. *

In "Pretending to Be Wise", Dumbledore says that the reason he doesn't subscribe to purely utilitarian ethics is because he doesn't trust himself:

"Grindelwald was my dark mirror, the man I could so easily have been, had I given in to the temptation to believe that I >was a good person, and therefore always in the right. For the greater good, that was his slogan; and he truly believed >it himself, even as he tore at all Europe like a wounded animal."

So he sticks to his virtue ethics, unless he is forced to, since he doesn't trust his morality enough to do non-virtuous things in service of it, lest he become another Grindelwald. It is only when forced to that he abandons his principles, and only to prevent further violence. Choosing to sacrifice someone is against his nature, his room might remind him of the costs of that course of action, but it doesn't change who he is, only make him regret his failure in the War.

Add to that the fact that Filch is someone Dumbledore feels much sympathy toward, and the fact that he wasn't facing Lucius or anyone on the other side, him taking Filch's side is understandable, if not expected.

Comment author: cultureulterior 09 March 2014 09:41:19PM 5 points [-]

Who is Sirius? Fudge!

  • It is well known that Sirius was replaced before he went to prison (the repeated "I'm not serious", the phoenix screaming particularly loudly at one particular door)
  • Fudge was present at the capture of Sirius, and made Sirius go to Azkaban without a trial- which means Fudge needs to keep the person in Sirius's body locked up for some reason.
  • Sirius can switch bodies somehow (Someone who looks like Sirius enough to fool everyone else is in prison)
  • Fudge is under the thumb of the Malfoys- why? He's using them for support, but there has to be a reason why they can dominate him completely- and being able to expose him as a death eater does that.
  • Harry predicts that Evil!Pettigrew would be with the Malfoys- or in the caribbean? Why not predict the caribbean first? Because Evil!Sirius is with the Malfoys.
  • Meta-dramatic point: Harry has never talked to Fudge. Every time he has a chance to talk to him, like during Harry Potter Day, he hasn't- even during the trial, Fudge never says anything.
Comment author: gwern 10 March 2014 12:33:49AM *  1 point [-]

So in this theory, Pettigrew is just innocent and dead, and Sirius was the one who betrayed the secret to Voldemort?

http://predictionbook.com/predictions/24307

Comment author: cultureulterior 10 March 2014 09:04:22PM 0 points [-]

Yes.

Comment author: danielc 24 February 2014 01:18:05AM *  0 points [-]

Hey guys, I have a couple of mutually exclusive theories:

  • If I understand correctly, the author thinks that a body can be "repaired" after death. So he believes that Hermione can be resurrected by nanobots or engineered microorganisms, or some advanced muggle device like that. And we know that he can't just transfigure some water into nanobots and make them do their job, and them just let them turn into water, or take them out. In the case he couldn't sustain the bots until they finish, then he can make a molecular 3d printer, purify some silicon using partial transfiguration and make the bots in the 3d printer.

It's a no brainer really, we know he has her body and is up to something. She will one way or another return back to life. Another implied thing is that humans have souls, and once a soul it's gone it cannot be brought back. BUT that's not what we see actually. What if the real deal was the neurons, and that surge of magic coming out of her so to speak was actually the veil at the Departement of Misteries obtaining an imperfect copy of someone's consciousness? What if that veil is just a failed try by the atlantians, Merlin, or whoeevr at, say, the magical version mind uploading? Like when people simulate neuronal networks on their computers and think "just if I had a map of the synapses in a brain I could simulate it". Right, you may get something resembling consciousness. But it wouldn't capture the subtleties of the millions of chemical reactions ocurring in a particular neuron. Like people resurrected with the stone, or proffessor Binns. People who cannot learn new things, who really don not function as normal human beings.

Harry said something like "magic in hpmor works intent-based". BUT what if that's limited by whoever programmed "intent" in magic? Say, the atlantians. It can do just as well as they could at their time. Maybe they roughly understood how the brain works, but didn't understand enough of the neuron's internal mechanism. Maybe whoever programmed "reparo" built in certain things in it, like a complete enough feature set for everyday's work, but left things out that were algorithmically too complex, like fixing cloth. Maybe the creator of the resurrection stone/veil set (the vail stores the data, the stone let's you get it back) didn't know how neurons exactly worked, and couln't simulate them properly with magic or make the neurons alive again. I think the atlanians had science, and maybe that's exactly why they perished, and that's the reason they could program so many spells, they knew the algorithms.

What if the universe is just a lisp-like interpreter, and runs the earth as software? Someone discovered how to execute an eval from within, and everything is data, so they just self-modified the code to include different functions which are activated when someone with a particular genetic code says some random words with the "intents" of the wizard as parameters. But their sciece wasn't that advanced actually. The muggle world could have discovered magic a while ago if it wasn't for that genetic lock which someone along the way put to monopolize magic. And that's where Harry comes in. He has the algorithms (or can write them with his scientific knowledge), and he can mess with the source code. And that's what Quirrel is trying to stop (I don't know why though). He doesn't want Harry to know about spell creating, and Mcgonagal doesn't realize why he advises her not to let Harry have access to that, she thinks it's just because they are being "responsible adults" and children just are not meant to have access to that.

  • Mayby souls actually do exist, and when you use the resurrection stone you are actually bringing back the spirit, but as it doesn't have a body anymore it cannot function in this realm of reality. So he will get her spirit back, fix her body in the usual scientific ways (see above) and join the two with the elder's wand.

  • He brings her back somehow (duh) but I still don't know how.

  • He is going to surprise us all and take a dramatic deathist approach. Actually Dumbledore is right, Hermione now just belongs to another realm and is gone forever from this world. Harry's attempts end up in failure, or he actually somehow brings her back but she is in zombie-mode and wants to go back to heaven, just as Rowling wold have liked (very unlikely given the author of the fic).

EDIT: Thanks, I thought line braks would be kept, but it seems like I need an extra new line every paragraph.

Comment author: Velorien 24 February 2014 02:46:38PM 1 point [-]

Please break your first theory up into paragraphs. It's rather hard to read as is.

Comment author: Strangeattractor 11 February 2014 02:10:12AM *  1 point [-]

I think Harry might have been the one to secure Hermione's body. He managed to convince McGonagall to remove the restrictions on his time turner. He probably used the time turner right after he was allowed to be by himself in the room with Hermione's body. That would have given himself more time to think and act. He was also checking his wristwatch a lot, especially when he had to leave the room, and when he had interruptions.

In the scene where he convinces Dumbledore and the others that he doesn't have Hermione's body, we don't get very far inside Harry's head. It shows what he says and does, but not his thoughts. Also, he doesn't spend a lot of time speculating about where Hermione's body went, in later chapters.

I'm not sure where he would have put it though. Could he get out of Hogwarts to take her body elsewhere? Or is there a suitable place in the Hogwarts grounds where he could stash it? Would he have to keep visiting the body to renew the spell on her body to keep it cold, or could he figure out a muggle way to cool it, or a different magic way that didn't need to be renewed?

Comment author: solipsist 05 February 2014 12:52:17AM *  1 point [-]

Harry can obliviate people well enough to make them "lose every single life memory involving the color blue". This is a Big Deal. It allows for things like:


O-


October

After walking Herminone to Broomstick class, Harry wandered alone about the upper hallways of Hogwartz pondering Neville's rememberal. He must have forgotten about something important, but w-

Ow!

A Green Elephant appeared out of nowhere and struck Harry's head. It was a stuffed animal, the type you might buy for a small child, if the child's favorite color were Eerily Glowing Green. Harry removed an index card pinned to the elephant's side.

Forget something? Jog your memory at the north-northwest stacks of the main Hogwarts library, letter M.

Yours,

You

p.s. Don't think about the green elephant! (smirk)

Harry rubbed his temple. It was at times like these that Harry wished he had less affinity for cryptic clues and assaulting people with glowing megafauna.

Less than 5 minutes of search at the library Harry and found the next hint: a fluorescent green post-it labeled "Elephant" on the book Mind Magic: A Modern Approach.

Harry kicked himself. Well, that solved the mystery of the glowing rememberal. He had forgotten a task he had assigned himself his first day at Hogwarts:

Todo 1̶2: Research every kind of mind magic you can find. Mind is the foundation of our power as humans, any kind of magic that affects it is the most important sort of magic there is.

Harry opened the book at a green elephant-shaped bookmark and read.

The unpracticed wizard can manage only coarser obliviatons, such as removing every single life memory involving fish or the colour blue.

...Or every life memory involving Green Elephants, Harry thought. So that's what he was up to with the elephant. Harry had ensured that every memory he made while learning obliviation would be tagged with a obvious marker. If Harry ever needed to plead ignorance of mind magic in the future, he could obliviate all his life green-elephant memories (be prepared!). Alright, new plan. He would study obliviation in secret, always thinking about a green elephant when doing so.

A grinning Harry wandered out of the library and into the Weasley twins.

"Harry! We got you a present." said Fred or George.

"You'll never guess what it is."

Harry put a finger on his cheek "Is it...A glowing green elephant?"


April 16th, 1992.

2:34 PM

Harry slowed the broomstick to a halt in midair of a hallway, his wand already coming into his hand, the driving will to protect Hermione Granger rising to the front of his mind like a sun of silver fire and flowing down his arm as he cried

"EXPECTO PATRONUM!"

and the blazing white humanoid burst into existence like a nova, the Weasley twins' voices crying aloud in shock.

"Tell Hermione Granger - that there's a troll loose in Hogwarts - it could be hunting for her - she needs to get into direct sunlight, now!"

The silver figure turned as though it was departing, and then -

A floating green elephant appeared

Harry's Patronus raced out of the room. It took forty agonizing seconds before the silvery figure returned, opened it's mouth and said <spoilers redacted>.

An invisible voice shouted "EXPECTO PATRONUM!".

A second true Patronus appeared next to the floating green elephant.

The invisible voice instructed "Send the following message to me: 'Hermione Granger says,'" the invisible voice rose in pitch in a poor imitation of Hermione, "AHHHHHHHHH!"

The floating green elephant disappeared.

"Merlin's underpants," breathed Fred or George.


Battle with the troll:

One hand held a tremendous stone club as long and as wide as an adult human, and the other hand held a green elephant and <spoilers redacted>

...

The troll snorted and spun around to face them, dropping a green elephant and <spoilers redacted> into the red pool that had spread out beneath its feet, raising its club high.


Aftermath:

Harry told Dumbldore about the <spoilers redacted>, though he knew later he would be unable to process the memory later.

...

But Harry didn't see anything helpful he could do using spells in his lexicon, Dumbledore wasn't being very cooperative, and in any case this was several minutes after the critical location within Time and Harry's green elephant weilding, time-traveling double would be more chronologically equipped.

Dumbledore walked to Harry's side, George moved to keel next to his brother, and Fred lay supine.

Why had future Harry shown him the Green Elephant?

"Harry," the Headmaster whispered, laying his hand on Harry's shoulder. "Harry, you must go from this place"


Harry sat outside the infirmary storeroom clutching his time-turner. He could go back; he could save her. But not yet.

Think of a green elephant

He knew too much. He could't go back now -- the information carried in his mind would strech time too far.

Think of a green elephant

There was only one way left. Harry turned his wand on himself, his fingers forming the motion he had practiced all year.

Think of a green elephant

In a flash, his mind would race his memories of a Green Elephant and wipe them out forever.

Harry drew his breath.


-bliviate

Comment author: Velorien 05 February 2014 11:20:06AM 1 point [-]

I had the exact opposite interpretation of that line. I thought it meant that Harry still had so little control that if he was trying to get rid of a memory which involved the colour blue (presumably referring to the unicorn and its blood, which was "not white, but pale blue, or appearing so"), he would instead end up removing all such memories without meaning to.

That's rather like saying "he couldn't perform surgery unless he wanted somebody to lose every single organ in their abdomen". Not something you want to use as a tool - at most, it's a very blunt weapon where Harry has access to far better ones for most situations.

Comment author: BarbaraB 17 January 2014 08:47:11PM 0 points [-]

Why everybody believes that centaur wanted to kill Harry ? It rather seems like centaur was disarming him. And it is even possible, he was under imperius curse (from Quirrel) while disarming Harry. He seemed to be surprised about what he was doing (looked up with widened eyes) and he apologised. I believe Quirrel just wanted to interrupt the conversation between Harry and Centaur.

Comment author: Velorien 18 January 2014 12:26:23AM *  1 point [-]

"You are innocent, as the stars say. And to slay something innocent to save oneself, that is a terrible deed. One would live only a cursed life, a half-life, from that day. For any centaur would surely be cast out, if he slew a foal."

The spear made a lightning motion, too fast for Harry's eyes to follow, and smashed his wand out of his hand.

Another powerful blow smashed into Harry's solar plexus, and he went gasping and retching to the forest floor.

Harry's hand reached up toward his robes, for his Time-Turner, and the spear-butt knocked his hand away, almost hard enough to break fingers, he reached with his other hand and that was knocked away too -

"I am sorry, Harry Potter," the centaur said, and then looked up with widened eyes. The spear spun about and came up, intercepting a red spellbolt.

The centaur talks about Harry's apocalyptic destiny. Then he talks about the implications of a centaur killing a child. Then he attacks Harry. Then, once Harry is fully disarmed and vulnerable, he apologises. Then he's surprised by Quirrell's assault.

You appear to be offering two alternative interpretations.

a) The centaur talks about Harry's apocalyptic destiny. Then he talks about the implications of a centaur killing a child. Then he attacks Harry. Then, once Harry is fully disarmed and vulnerable, he apologises. But he's just disarming Harry for its own sake, with no intention of killing him, because... he felt like it?

b) In the middle of the conversation, Quirrell Imperiuses the centaur to attack Harry, and to apologise in the middle of doing so, before coming to the "rescue" himself. The fact that the centaur was talking about centaurs killing innocent children right before this is a complete coincidence.

Comment author: BarbaraB 20 January 2014 10:50:54AM 0 points [-]

Why did the centaur disarm Harry at all ? To remove a wand (I imagine thin stick) from somebodys hand, that requires very good aiming. Why not simple kill Harry with the first spear, if killing was really the intention ?

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 11 January 2014 12:01:54PM 1 point [-]

Sorry if these questions are stupid, but with the long pauses betwen the chapters I find it difficult to remember what exactly happened.

1) What exactly is the puzzle we are trying to solve?

If I remember correctly, Eliezer wanted us to solve something before the story is finished. Which pretty much means now or never. I just don't know what exactly is the question. (Yeah, knowing the question is half of knowing the answer.) Who is Voldemort? Seems obvious that it's Quirrell. What should Harry do? What exactly is happening? What are the motivations of the main characters in the story? Who killed Narcissa Malfoy? Do we have a list of unanswered questions? How likely it is that answering them will provide a new view of the story, and will uncover some new possible strategy for Harry?

2) Does Dumbledore know or suspect that Quirrell = Voldemort?

I am not sure. At some moment it seems to me that yes: Dumbledore expects that Quirrell will cause some problems (e.g. when bringing a dementor). At some moments it seems to me that no: Dumbledore explains Harry that Voldemort should be killed without mercy at the first opportunity... and yet does nothing against Quirrell. I am specifically condused about the part (after Draco was attacked) when Dumbledore took the map and asked about "Tom Riddle". What did he know at that moment?

Also, I am disappointed that Dumbledore plays an idiot so successfully, that Harry actually treats him like an idiot. Thus two people who have best chance at defeating Voldermort, have trouble communicating.

Quirrell may have some blind sports about humans, but he is good at disrupting communication channels.

Comment author: mjr 17 January 2014 08:27:01AM *  0 points [-]

I got the impression it'd be a more acute and visible thing within the final arc. (Edit: As with Three worlds collide.)

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 17 January 2014 11:10:45AM 2 points [-]

Some of the recent chapters were about an importance of not wasting time, and I'm not sure if that was or wasn't a hidden message.

I mean, in the story universe, Harry will not be suddenly given a huge dialog window saying: -- "Harry, now you have to make an important choice, and the fate of the world depends on it. Will you: a) trust Quirrell, b) say everything to Dumbledore and ask him for information and help, c) ask Minerva to join your heroic team and help you research meta-spells, d) do a dangerous ritual involving time turners, advanced Patronus, invisibility cloak, and partial transfiguration?"

Instead, the possible solutions will be gradually taken away from him without a warning. He will probably not even get a feedback when the last one is gone.

But of course I am mixing in-universe and out-universe here. It is still possible that the dialog window will be displayed to us, readers, at a proper moment.

Comment author: Strangeattractor 08 January 2014 04:52:24PM 0 points [-]

I have some thoughts about the HPMOR story going forward, various clues I've noticed, and speculation.

Avada Kedavra

I am intrigued by the possibility that Avada Kedavra might be used for prolonging life.

What if, when Lily Potter started to cast it, she was not casting it on Voldemort, but on Harry? Avada Kedavra involves a complete preference for death over life in the mind of the caster. What if she had a complete preference for life over death in regard to Harry, and so was attempting to protect him with the spell? What if it partially worked, and that's why Harry lived?

I think it is plausible, considering it appears the Potters were doing research into immortality.

Dementor-defeating thoughts

I also wonder if the way Harry thinks about things in order to defeat dementors will be challenged at all. His present dementor-defeating point of view fits in very well with how whoever made all of the spells and summoned dementors might think (though taking the opposite stance). It still seems like the Aristotelian logic of how the broomsticks move to me, not something more correct like Newton's laws of motion. If you look at it more closely, what would it actually mean to defeat death? While a person is alive, the cells in that person's body die and are replaced all the time. The only examples that I am aware of, of cells that don't die on time, are in cancer tumors. Death is a part of biological systems in a way that isn't acknowledged by Harry's dementor-defeating thoughts, or at least that is my impression of it. It seems odd to me, given that in so many other areas of the story, details about how the world works are important (like in partial transfiguration.)

Not that I want to see Harry lose the power to defeat dementors, or give up the quest to help humans have long healthy lives, or give up the quest to save Hermione if he can, unlikely as bringing someone back from the dead (or cryogenic storage?) seems. But it would be nice if he was a little more correct while defeating dementors. And if that more correct understanding gave him better powers (like it has done in other areas of the story.)

Prophecy

My thoughts when I saw the bit of the prophecy "HE IS HERE. THE ONE WHO WILL TEAR APART THE VERY STARS IN HEAVEN. HE IS HERE. HE IS THE END OF THE WORLD." were along the lines of "Cool! Harry's going to figure out how to make fusion practical." Not something like "Harry's going to blow up our sun."

I hope the prophecy involves something awesome like Harry figuring out how to make fusion power sources practical, and doesn't involve lots of destruction and death.

Although, re-reading it, I suppose I've glossed over the end of the world part of it. Hmm.

A few other clues

I think Quirrell knows how to make a dementor, but might not realize it. In Chapter 74: "Even so, the most terrible ritual known to me demands only a rope which has hanged a man and a sword which has slain a woman; and that for a ritual which promised to summon Death itself - though what is truly meant by that I do not know and do not care to discover, since it was also said that the counterspell to dismiss Death had been lost."

Also, at one point Dumbledore mentioned that one of Voldemort's methods of seeking immortality required doing something "in coldest blood". Perhaps that is more literal than Dumbledore realizes, and that's why Draco had a blood-cooling charm cast on him. Though, I'm not sure what evidence there was of the blood-cooling charm besides Hermione's presumably fake memories and Quirrell's testimony, so perhaps something else happened at that time.

Comment author: Velorien 08 January 2014 05:51:42PM *  1 point [-]

Avada Kedavra involves a complete preference for death over life in the mind of the caster. What if she had a complete preference for life over death in regard to Harry, and so was attempting to protect him with the spell?

You may need to elaborate on this one - as it stands, it simply does not compute. There's no evidence that casting a spell with the exact opposite of the necessary mindset makes it have the exact opposite effect to normal. It's like saying "if you cast Lumos, but you really want everything to be dark, it'll put out lights instead of generating them". There's also a problem with suggesting that a partially cast spell can have partial effect. There are a lot of partially cast spells both in canon and in HPMOR, and they never have any effect.

If you look at it more closely, what would it actually mean to defeat death? While a person is alive, the cells in that person's body die and are replaced all the time.

Harry wants to defeat person death, not cell death or any other kind of death (which by a broad enough definition would also include things like nuclear decay). Person death is a very specific phenomenon where damage, disease or degeneration reduce a functional biological system to an inert mass of organic matter. Harry wants to prevent this from happening; or at least to prevent a person's "self" (in the sense of their data as stored in the brain) from being permanently lost in the process.

Also, at one point Dumbledore mentioned that one of Voldemort's methods of seeking immortality required doing something "in coldest blood". Perhaps that is more literal than Dumbledore realizes, and that's why Draco had a blood-cooling charm cast on him.

This would suggest that the attempted murder of Draco was performed in order for Voldemort to gain immortaility. More than one problem with that, from Voldemort already being immortal, to all the evidence suggesting that Draco was targeted in order to influence Harry rather than for any other reason. The full quote, BTW:

There is a human sacrifice, a murder, of that I am certain; committed in coldest blood, the victim dying in horror. And old, old tales of wizards possessed, doing mad deeds, claiming the names of Dark Lords thought defeated; and there is usually a device, of that Dark Lord, which they wield...

Comment author: Romashka 11 December 2014 08:05:00PM 0 points [-]

Quick! Disarm Dumbledore! He claims that Grindelwald has been defeated, has convinced some people through expressing doubt in his own sanity and/or goodness that the very idea of him being Dark is laughable, and ... actually wields a wand he took as a trophey:)))

Comment author: Strangeattractor 11 February 2014 01:30:06AM *  0 points [-]

Avada Kedavra and Lily

Avada Kedavra is repeatedly pointed out to be an unusual spell.

The caster's state of mind doesn't seem to matter when casting Lumos or other ordinary spells. But for Avada Kedavra, the person casting the spell has to feel a certain emotion and achieve a certain state of mind. As Harry puts it in chapter 86 the spell is "A magically embodied preference for death over life."

In the conversation with Moody and Dumbledore, it is also mentioned that the first time to cast Avada Kedavra is a big psychological hump for most people to get over, though it usually becomes easier on subsequent occasions.

What if the way Avada Kedavra really works is that it amplifies the preferences of the caster for life or death, but only if it is extreme? What if having an absolute preference for life over death is also a psychological hump that you have to get over?

I think it is plausible that Avada Kedavra doesn't work exactly like the wizards think it does. Moody says it works by striking at a person's soul. If souls don't exist, then maybe it works a different way.

I think it is plausible that over many years many people could use Avada Kedavra without discovering its additional properties.

In some ways, Avada Kedavra would be a very safe spell to experiment with, if the caster didn't really want the other person dead. However, it would take an immense amount of trust to allow another person to cast it at you, without dodging. How well do you know the caster, and can you really believe that they don't want you dead? Or, from the caster's point of view, would you really want to risk using something called the Killing Curse on someone you care about and love?

In Harry's memory of Godric's Hollow, his mother Lily first gets the Dark Lord to agree to save Harry in exchange for her death. Only then does she start to cast Avada Kedavra.

It's true that she was interrupted by the Dark Lord also casting Avada Kedavra. And I don't think we've seen very many examples of wizards collaborating on spells, so maybe that part of this theory doesn't work so well.

There have been hints that not everything at Godric's Hollow was as it seemed. Lily had been experimenting on life extension. What if under these extreme circumstances, her baby about to die if she did nothing, she decided to risk an experiment? What if she managed to outwit the Dark Lord?

That would be pretty awesome. It would be an expression of a mother's love in actions, not just in feelings.

Harry's memory of the event has Lily shrieking "Avada Ke-" in desperate hate, but he was under the influence of a dementor when he was remembering the scene. He might not have all the nuances of the scene, or all of the emotional flavour of it. And the scene doesn't show where Lily's wand was pointing, just has the sound of her voice.

Death, cell death and dementors

Does Harry really just want to prevent person death? His actions would be consistent with that, but the way he thinks of things and what he says isn't completely consistent with that.

Harry says things like "I won't let Death touch me, I won't let Death touch the ones I love," in Chapter 45 when facing down a dementor, and "I thought of my absolute rejection of death as the natural order," in Chapter 46, shortly after destroying a dementor.

To me, saying something like "I will not let them be touched by Death" makes about as much sense as saying "I will not let them be touched by molecules."

I would ask, how are you going to go on living for the next month without touching death?

Even if a human being decides to live by strict dietary rules like the Jains do (eating only fruit that has fallen to the ground, etc.), how will they avoid the cell deaths inside their body? The death and replenishment of cells is part of biology, part of living.

I would also ask, what does Harry mean when he says death is not part of the natural order? Aside from the idea that the death of large scale sentient sapient organisms is not desireable, that is. (Or is that the only thing Harry means?) From empirical observation, it would appear that death is part of all living organisms found in nature, at the level of cell death at least. I'm willing to entertain the idea of alternatives, but I'm not aware of any viable ones. I'm kind of bothered that Harry doesn't seem to see the need to propose any, or to make any distinctions between different types of death, if indeed he thinks cell death is different than person death. When he talks about death it is usually death with a capital D, and somewhat anthropomorphized, or a somewhat awkward abstraction. It doesn't seem to have much relationship to biology as we know it.

I think it might be the vestiges of the idea of having souls, or of the ghost-in-the-machine model of consciousness.

If you think of a person as being sort of a collection of emergent properties, and if you think that their body is part of who they are, then ignoring the deaths that happen at the smaller scales of the body doesn't really fit.

I'm used to overlooking this sort of thing most of the time, but one of ways HPMOR appeals to me is that on many topics it strives to be more correct and accurate about how things work and how to think about things. On the issue of death, at least with regard to dementors, it falls short of this for me. I would not be comforted by the thoughts Harry uses to resist dementors.

Voldemort and rituals

I think it is quite possible that Voldemort is doing rituals to attempt to survive. For example, assuming Quirrell is Voldemort, he managed to get a sample of Harry's blood when he grabbed the newspaper from him and Harry got a paper cut in chapter 26. In Chapter 61, Dumbledore says of Voldemort's possible plans for resurrection: "His second avenue is nearly as strong: The flesh of his servant, willingly given; the blood of his foe, forcibly taken; and the bone of his ancestor, unknowingly bequeathed." So, Quirrell has Bellatrix Black, and it seems likely she would willingly give him flesh. He has Harry's blood. He probably has some way to get bone from an ancestor. I don't think it would necessarily have to be from his father or immediate ancestors, though Dumbledore says that's the most powerful combination.

I'm not sure what Voldemort's motivations are beyond avoiding death. His present mode of survival might not be something he can maintain indefinitely. And if he thinks the universe is at risk, he would want to save that, to save his own skin.

He seems to be doing something with Harry, but I'm not sure what. When asked about it while in Azkaban, he said in Parseltongue "Plan iss for you to rule country, obviossly, even your young noble friend hass undersstood that by now," but that might be an outright lie, or just what he thinks Harry would find easy to believe.

In Chapter 89, from inside Quirrell's head, we can see that he feels Harry's emotions, but cannot directly manipulate them, and he thinks "With any luck, the boy had just discarded his foolish little reluctances." So it seems like Quirrell wants Harry to have fewer hesitations or ethical restrictions, but I'm not sure why.

It is possible that the main reason for the attack on Draco was to influence Harry, but I don't think it is obvious that this was the case, or that it is necessarily the only reason.

Also, Dumbledore might not be correct about the details whether there has to be a murder in coldest blood. He is simply repeating stories and legends from books he managed to track down about how to seek immortality. He might have interpreted it differently than Voldemort did.

Comment author: Velorien 11 February 2014 03:21:34PM 0 points [-]

I understand your theory about Avada Kedavra and Lily now. It has a few problems.

  • There's no reason to believe that Avada Kedavra is that unusual. It is one of two advanced spells whose workings are explained in detail, and the other is the Patronus Charm, which also requires a special state of mind. From this, it is entirely plausible that emotion-based spells are common among advanced casters, and not a great rarity that a) has special unique features and b) no-one's ever thought to study.

  • Your theory relies on all of our sources of information being incomplete or wrong (the entire wizarding world for all of its history, as well as Harry's memory), which surely merits some kind of penalty.

  • "Lily had been experimenting on life extension." Where do we know this from?

  • "In Harry's memory of Godric's Hollow, his mother Lily first gets the Dark Lord to agree to save Harry in exchange for her death." I'm not sure how this ties in to your theory, but either way, I suggest you review her actual words.

“Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!”

“Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy...”

“Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead!”

Unless Lily is an amazing actress, these are not the words of a woman trying to manipulate someone into completing a ritual.

In looking up quotes, I did find a line that strongly supports your theory, however. It's when Fred and George are planning rumours to spread about the Defense Professor:

“...like when he claimed that you could only cast the Killing Curse using love, which made it pretty much useless.”

And this is Eliezer we're talking about, and it also does so happen that if your theory is correct, Voldemort would have observed the results of Lily's experiment and taken note of its success.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 06 January 2014 09:28:08AM 0 points [-]

Quirrell

“Ordinary folk do not do as much, for those they call friends.” The voice sounded more distant now, abstracted. “Not even for those they say they love. Their companions die, and they do not go in search of power to resurrect them.”

Self pity because people someone didn't come to look for a way to resurrect him?

Comment author: Velorien 06 January 2014 12:11:57PM 0 points [-]

Are we to believe that Voldemort had friends? If so, this is the first piece of evidence for such a claim.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 08 January 2014 11:45:59PM 0 points [-]

Self pity because there was no one who might have been inclined to do so, even if they thought of it?

Comment author: Velorien 08 January 2014 11:49:29PM 0 points [-]

It's not impossible, but I have to say the Quirrell we see seems to view friendship as something of an alien phenomenon. To him, after all, "friend" is just a role people attempt to play for their own personal benefit, or from a sense of social obligation. It is doubtful that he has some concept of "real" friendship which he wishes he had.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 09 January 2014 04:48:49AM *  1 point [-]

Alien, but he's coming to understand it through Harry.

He often specifically asks about friendship, about how Harry feels towards others, and particularly Hermione (as Harry's clear #1 friend). And when he asks, he contrasts his own feelings and experience to Harry's.

The Defense Professor ate several spoonfuls of soup in silence, then; and when he spoke again, his voice was oddly flat. “You really care about that girl.”

" I suppose that is why she was able to bring you out of your Dementation?"

“I did not have any friends like that when I was young.” Still the same emotionless voice. “What would have become of you, I wonder, if you had been alone?”

“Then here is what I might have done at your age, if there had been anyone to do it for—”

And

“It is a very strange thing,” the Defense Professor said, his voice now soft again, almost inaudible. The man was not looking at Harry, and Harry saw only his back. “A very strange thing... There was a time when I would have sacrificed a finger from my wand hand, to work upon the bullies of Hogwarts as we have worked upon them this day. To make them fear me as they now fear you, to have the deference of all the students and the adoration of many, I would have given my finger for that. You have everything now that I wanted then. All that I know of human nature says that I should hate you. And yet I do not. It is a very strange thing.”

Compare to, where Quirrell's voice is "filled with some indecipherable emotion."

“You truly do care about that girl,” the man’s dim outline said softly. “You care about her in the way that none of them are capable of caring for their own lives, let alone each other.” The Defense Professor’s voice had become strange, filled with some indecipherable emotion. “I do not understand it, but I know the lengths you will go to because of it. You will challenge death itself, for her. Nothing will sway you from that.”

IMO, it's unlikely that EY makes Quirrell an unqualified monster. EY, like Harry, wants to save everyone. Even a psychopath has some feelings - is not a completely alien Clippy.

I hadn't considered it before, but perhaps that is what happened to Quirrell - like Harry, extremely susceptible to Dementors, but unlike Harry, with no friends who might have pulled him out of his dementation.

“What would have become of you, I wonder, if you had been alone?”

Comment author: Velorien 09 January 2014 08:10:06PM 0 points [-]

Very interesting. I don't think Quirrell is intended to be an unqualified monster either, but the evidence you draw together is well-juxtaposed.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 06 January 2014 07:56:24AM 2 points [-]

Quirrell:

This truly dangerous wizard shall perhaps be bent on some project of which he anticipates great renown, and the certain prospect of losing that renown and living out his life in obscurity will seem to him more vivid, more aversive, than the unknown prospect of destroying his country.

The Sorting Hat:

“You know—you aren’t letting yourself think it, but in some quiet corner of your mind you know just exactly what you aren’t thinking—you know that by far the simplest explanation for this unverbalizable fear of yours is just the fear of losing your fantasy of greatness, of disappointing the people who believe in you, of turning out to be pretty much ordinary, of flashing and fading like so many other child prodigies...”

Comment author: buybuydandavis 31 December 2013 08:18:40PM *  5 points [-]

Harry thinks every death is a horrible tragedy. So, wouldn't he want to bring back everyone in the past as well? Make their deaths "not happen"? So he goes back in time to Atlantis, to arrange a self consistent history where no one has in fact died, but only seemed to die, much as he suggested Dumbledore do for Hermione's death.

One of the first lessons was ComedTea, and thinking about causality going backward in time. There's people like Harry and BDumbledore thinking about history as a story. There's the ridiculous levels of foreshadowing we see. History looks like a story because it is one, written by Harry. There was more powerful magic in the past because future Harry took those powers back in time with him.

There's even the foreshadowing of Harry going back in time to play a trick on himself.

"Ssalutations from Sslytherin to Sslytherin."

Comment author: wwa 22 December 2013 02:41:07PM 10 points [-]

The Severing Charm wouldn't bring down a tree, so he'd started partially Transfiguring cross-sections through the wood.

Quirell saw that. Partial transfiguration is not the power the dark lord knows not.

Comment author: mjr 17 January 2014 12:32:50PM 0 points [-]

I've pretty much assumed that cat to be out of the bag since the escape from Azkaban. Though he didn't see how Harry penetrated the wall, he could probably reason it out with decent probability. But sure, beside what Sheaman said about PT being already counterindicated, this does clinch it.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 04 January 2014 03:02:10AM 0 points [-]

http://hpmor.com/chapter/28

Those dreadful words, spoken in that terrible booming voice, didn’t seem to fit something like partial Transfiguration.

http://hpmor.com/chapter/86

it will be something stranger to him than Muggle artifacts. Something perhaps that he cannot comprehend at all, even having seen it...

Still, good catch.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 17 December 2013 02:56:49AM 3 points [-]

Strength of will is demanded for the cursed fire not to turn upon you and consume you;

Narcissa?

Comment author: gwern 17 December 2013 03:23:16AM 2 points [-]

Been suggested many times, yes.

Comment author: Alejandro1 15 December 2013 11:25:43PM *  5 points [-]

Discussion on HPMOR (along with other Potterverse topics) on the blog Crooked Timber.

I found it interesting because Crooked Timber is a (very good by the way) mainstream-liberal-academia blog, and I got a sense of "worlds colliding" by reading the opinions of their commenters on LW and its more niche subculture.

Comment author: brazil84 15 December 2013 07:51:13PM -1 points [-]

Probably a stupid question, but wasn't Draco was out of the picture already?

Comment author: kilobug 16 December 2013 11:28:54AM 0 points [-]

He went back after the negociations between Harry and Malfoy and the enforcement of "eductional decrees" to make Hogwarts safer, re-read chapters 97 and 98.

Comment author: ygert 15 December 2013 11:29:51AM *  4 points [-]

Unrelated to the latest chapters:

Inspired by RomeoStevens's comment in this thread, I am going over HPMOR, summarizing each chapter in a haiku. Tell me what you think:

Chapter 1:

Unexpected truth

Must still be updated on

Yes, magic is real

Chapter 2:

A show of magic

Tales of bitten teachers

The saga begins

Chapter 3:

Diagon alley

A peek into a new world

Stories of the past

Chapter 4:

Metal currency!

No real financial system

To speak of at all

Comment author: Unnamed 16 December 2013 09:08:14PM 4 points [-]

Chapter 23:

A blood purist, Draco by name
Proved that all wizards' blood is the same
So the boy who tricked him
Became his next victim
Draco would never do science again

Comment author: Unnamed 22 December 2013 03:38:23AM 0 points [-]

Jumping ahead to my favorite chapters, though the tone is nonstandard for the medium.

Patronus (chp 43)

His wrist motions were right on the mark
But his wand? Not even a spark.
What is wrong with this boy?
Is his heart short on joy?
Or is it just that it means that he's Dark.

Dementor (chp 43)

From its cloak it stroked his dark side
But he'd face it, with his wand and the sky
Then it struck a deep chord
Out came the Dark Lord
"Headmaster, you annoy me, so die."

Dementation (chp 44)

His mind hateful and empty of bliss,
Unmoored in that Dark abyss
Who can reach the boy now?
He won't respond to cacao
It can only end with a kiss.

Comment author: ygert 16 December 2013 02:53:42PM *  1 point [-]

Some more:

Chapter 6:

A resolution:

Understanding this world

Is a task indeed

Chapter 7

Journey to Hogwarts

Platform nine point seven five

Meeting new friends

Bonus one:

Quidditch needs a clock

The snitch is ridiculous

Reformation now!

And another:

All-powerful tea:

Harry impregnates Draco

So says The Quibbler

Comment author: TobyBartels 19 December 2013 03:03:25PM 1 point [-]

Nice.

Rewrite of Chapter 6:

A resolution:

Understanding this world:

What a task it is!

Comment author: ygert 19 December 2013 05:02:27PM *  2 points [-]

I like it. I think that's definitely an improvement on the last line.

Here are a few more:

Chapter 8:

Meet Hermione

Riddles and experiments

Start a new friendship

Chapter 9:

Waiting for sorting

Genetics are confusing

Never this before

Chapter 10:

The hat is conscious!

By asking, making sentience

Oops. A big mistake.

And another:

Ravenclaw sharpens

But Hufflepuff dulls his coldness

Where to put Harry?

And:

On this day fate splits

A great fork of destiny

Which path is right?

And:

One lone shouted word:

SLYTHERIN! ... Wait, what was that?!

Kidding! RAVENCLAW!

Comment author: TobyBartels 16 December 2013 02:28:26AM 0 points [-]

Like Kindly, I pronounce 'tales’ with one syllable, but if it's two for you, then OK.

As for content, I'm fairly pleased with these, except for #4. Having the last two lines run together as a single sentence without a break seems inappropriate. Maybe rewrite it so that ‘Metal currency!’ is the last line?

Comment author: ygert 16 December 2013 02:35:06PM 0 points [-]

Yeah, I had to quickly rewrite #4 at the last minute after Kindly pointed out that my original version had an unambiguous 6 syllables in line 2. So it is no surprise that my hurried rewrite was less good.

Out of interest, how do you pronounce "tales"? I seem to pronounce it something on the order of "tay-uls". So how do you pronounce it as a single syllable?

Comment author: TobyBartels 16 December 2013 03:06:49PM 1 point [-]

When speaking naturally and counting syllables, I pronounce ‘tales’ and ‘tells’ largely the same; the vowel in the first is longer and slightly higher (/e:/ vs /ϵ/). But when emphasizing (‘not tells, TALES’), I would do more like your ‘tay-uls’.

Comment author: Kindly 15 December 2013 03:39:07PM 3 points [-]

Poetry is a union of form and content. Putting something into the form of a haiku is essentially trivial, so most haiku writers focus on content instead; however, your content should also be familiar to everyone reading, so you can't win there. (Also, #2 and #4 have 6 and 5 syllables in their respective second lines.)

Limericks would be good, if you could pull those off. Obviously, it would be harder. That's sort of the point, though: to impress people with form, you have to do something that isn't easy to do. On the other hand, if you write 101+ limericks, you'll probably be good at limericks by the end.

(Half good; I'm told the other half of limerick writing is that they have to be dirty and/or funny, ideally both.)

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 16 December 2013 10:02:35AM 3 points [-]

your content should also be familiar to everyone reading

Not for those who've had the time to forget about the contents of the story. This could be a useful way for people to remind themselves of the rough structure of the story without re-reading everything.

Comment author: ygert 15 December 2013 05:23:27PM *  1 point [-]

I don't know. I think there is a virtue in succinctness, an art that appears when things are put into a tightly limited form. It makes you look at what is essential, and so shows the essence.

Maybe I'll try limericks next. It's as good an idea as any, I suppose.

Different people pronounce things differently, so arguing over syllable numbers is going to be be frustrating, but can you tell me how you see 6 syllables in line 2 of #2? Do you pronounce "tales" as a single syllable?

You are certainly right about #4 though, so thanks for the pointer. I changed it. It lost a bit of punch, but whatever. If I am building elegance out of restrictions, I had better keep to them.

Comment author: EndlessStrategy 14 December 2013 12:48:35AM 1 point [-]

For what reason does Harry think Quirrell is applying false memory charms to everyone? What's wrong with what they saw?

Comment author: linkhyrule5 14 December 2013 01:05:25AM 6 points [-]

The last bit, from Draco's perspective, is the False Memory. If they had remembered what really happened they would've seen blindingly fast spellcasting, which implies ridiculously powerful wizard and would be dealt with very differently.

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 December 2013 09:32:37PM *  1 point [-]

The silver from the begging of HPMOR seems unicorn blood. Eliezer said:

V’yy fgngr bhgevtug gung ng gur raq bs gur fgbel Urezvbar pbzrf onpx nf na nyvpbea cevaprff.

Tvira havpbea oybbq vf nobhg ceriragvat qrngu, jr unir gur vaterqvragf sbe n zntvp evghny.

Tvira gur cebcurpvrf gung evghny vf cebonoyl tbvat gb unir n punapr bs qrfgeblvat gur jbeyq. V guvax vg cebonoyl qbrf.

Comment author: HungryHippo 16 December 2013 07:27:03PM *  2 points [-]

Two unrelated ideas:

Drain Hermionie's blood and fill her up again with unicorn blood. (Would that even work?)

Kill a dementor and use it to make a horcrux. (Does killing a dementor spilt your soul?)

Comment author: UnclGhost 15 December 2013 03:33:53AM *  2 points [-]

Silver seems to be a running theme for anti-death things (add the Silvery Slytherins and the Peverell crest to that list). Unicorn blood is a likely candidate, though. (Also, that bit you mentioned is probably worth rot13ing since it came from a source that he suggested not reading.)

Comment author: ChristianKl 15 December 2013 05:05:17PM 0 points [-]

I hadn't seen that he suggested against reading it. I edited to rot13.

Comment author: Alsadius 13 December 2013 10:38:42PM 0 points [-]

Where/when did he say this?

Comment author: somervta 14 December 2013 08:01:46AM 0 points [-]

It was in the feminism rant.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 14 December 2013 01:32:05PM 0 points [-]

Link?

Comment author: Tenoke 14 December 2013 06:16:09PM *  2 points [-]

here

It's the third link when you google "I’ll state outright that at the end of the story Hermione comes back as an alicorn princess."

Comment author: linkhyrule5 14 December 2013 01:06:04AM 2 points [-]

OOC as a joke in one of the author's notes.

Though, mind, he could be telling the truth.

Comment author: Velorien 14 December 2013 04:17:00PM 8 points [-]

Given that:

1) Quirrell believes that bringing back Hermione would be the surest way to prevent Harry from destroying the world. ("Miss Granger was the only one whose worries he truly heeded - with her gone - all checks on the boy's recklessness are removed"; "You truly do care about that girl (...) I do not understand it, but I know the lengths you will go to because of it. You will challenge death itself, for her. Nothing will sway you from that.")

2) Preventing the prophecy from coming true appears to be at least one of Quirrell's top priorities as of the Roles arc (which, for some as-yet unestablished reason, the beginning of the unicorn deaths falls into).

3) Quirrell has been killing unicorns and storing away their flesh.

4) Eliezer has said, as above, "I’ll state outright that at the end of the story Hermione comes back as an alicorn princess".

Semi-serious hypothesis: Quirrell is intending to bring Hermione back using unicorn blood.

Comment author: Sheaman3773 04 January 2014 03:28:20AM 1 point [-]

Quirrell has been killing unicorns and storing away their flesh.

http://hpmor.com/chapter/100

Then a final gesture from Professor Quirrell ripped a huge chunk out of the unicorn's side, leaving behind ragged edges; the raw meat hovered in the air, then wavered in Vanishment and was gone.

Though unreliable narration is always possible.

Comment author: Coscott 13 December 2013 08:13:30PM *  11 points [-]

Lets talk about chapter 99.

Chapter 99 was there for a reason. I think the most likely reason is to emphasize the 10 days later. Chapter 98 was April 20, and chapter 100 was May 13. For some reason EY wants the first attack to happen on April 30. This could be because QQ only needs to drink the blood every couple weeks. However, why not just make the first unicorn found on May 12 and have no chapter 99? This would make more sense. I would expect the forest to be searched immediately afterwords. This is empathized further in chapter 100:

Draco nodded; he distantly remembered hearing something along those lines a couple of weeks ago, toward the end of April.

Maybe the goal with this is to give some character a full 2 weeks to research unicorns or make a plan.

Other theories for chapter 99:

He wanted the reveal of the unicorn to fall under the Roles sequence for some reason.

He wanted to build suspense. (But then I would expect him to have posted 99 on Sunday and 100 on Wed.)

He wants chapter 99 to be written in passive voice to hide the identity of the person who "found" the unicorn.

Comment author: Benito 13 December 2013 09:55:56PM 10 points [-]

I think that the fact that chapter 99 falls into the 'roles - aftermath' title, indicates it's relatedness. This is the consequence of the roles arc, somehow - perhaps this is Quirrell's response to the new regulations, whyever that might be.

Comment author: Coscott 13 December 2013 10:10:06PM 2 points [-]

I didn't think of that. I think that is more likely than my hypothesis. EY is telling us that the unicorn attack is a consequence of the roles arc.

Comment author: Fermatastheorem 15 December 2013 04:28:46AM 6 points [-]

Or he's telling us that Quirrell is playing the role of someone who is on the verge of dying.

Comment author: MarkusRamikin 13 December 2013 07:31:24PM *  1 point [-]

I'm just curious how Hagrid felt about his own role in Hermione's death. I'd wondered if I'd see evidence that he thought about it.

Perhaps his personal hero Dumbledore persuaded him it's none of his fault and that he'd acted reasonably.

Comment author: drethelin 13 December 2013 07:44:45PM 6 points [-]

What role? Standing in the way of an overly brave 11 year old who wants to go out and fight a troll is probably the morally correct action to take. If any other kid than Harry had done what he did, they would've died along with Hermione. (Well actually they probably never would've guessed to use a patronus to find her and thus been fine). It's not actually reasonable for humans to recognize another human as the player character and themselves as NPCs, much as eliezer would like the world to work that way.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 17 December 2013 02:18:59AM 4 points [-]

Harry was not looking to fight a troll, he was looking to save Hermione from the troll.

Harry Potter spoke again. “We’re not going to fight the troll. ...
“Great, now can we also keep Hermione Granger safe? You know, the student framed for a murder she did not commit who needs someone to help her?”

Further, if Hagrid had authorized a 7th year to help, they could have followed Harry's plan of searching for Hermione and bringing her back with the most powerful wizard then available to aid and protect the search.

Hagrid could have had authorized 2 seventh years ride the broom, giving ample power to ward off a troll and protecting the supposedly helpless Harry at the same time.

Hagrid clearly prevented effective aid from riding to Hermione's rescue, and he was the first "responsible adult" to know that she was missing. He is more responsible for the outcome than anyone but the Troll and the attacker using the troll.

Comment author: CCC 13 December 2013 02:01:03PM 7 points [-]

Sooo... Quirrel knows a stunning hex that looks like Avadra Kevadra?

Then, back in Azkaban, facing that auror, when Quirrel used Avadra Kevadra in an attempt to force the auror to dodge, and Harry stopped it with his patronus...

...why did Quirrel not use the green stunner, unless Quirrel actually wanted to kill the auror?

And how long will it be until Harry asks that question?

Comment author: JGWeissman 15 December 2013 06:43:03AM 4 points [-]

Then, back in Azkaban, facing that auror, when Quirrel used Avadra Kevadra in an attempt to force the auror to dodge

What do you think you know about which spell Quirrell used, and how do you think you know it?

Comment author: CCC 21 January 2014 08:01:04AM 0 points [-]

I think Quirrel used a powerful killing curse. I think that this is the case mainly because I don't think a stunner would have had as much effect on a patronus as the spell which Quirrel used; also because, even when facing a significant decline in his reputation in Harry's eyes (in hostile territory) Quirrel did not think to try to claim that it was a green stunner, leading me to the tentative conclusion that Quirrel had not thought of a green stunner at that time.

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 December 2013 08:58:06PM 1 point [-]

Quirrel could have learned the spell after the endeavour. On the other hand Quirrell is probably lying.

Comment author: Tenoke 13 December 2013 06:58:16PM 7 points [-]

Presumably, an Auror knows more about hexes than a centaur.

Comment author: maia 13 December 2013 04:49:50PM 19 points [-]

As in this comment: Probably Quirrell is lying. When he realized Harry was upset about the centaur dying, he thought fast and Inferiused the centaur and made up the bit about green stunners.

IIRC, in canon Avada Kedavra has a distinctive color not shared by any other spell.

Comment author: Muskwalker 17 February 2014 05:28:07AM 1 point [-]

IIRC, in canon Avada Kedavra has a distinctive color not shared by any other spell.

In MOR, though, "green light the exact shade of the Killing Curse" is a spell first-year Draco can cast (ch47).

Comment author: CCC 15 December 2013 06:28:19AM 11 points [-]

If Quirrell is lying, then asking the question "Why not use the green stunner in other circumstances where Avadra Kevadra was used?" may lead to that lie being uncovered.

I admit I had not considered Inferius on the centaur. However, I rather suspect that Quirrell is priming Harry here; he does something (hitting a centaur with a green stunner) that looks evil, then demonstrates that it is less evil than it was. In the future, then, Harry will be more inclined to believe that Quirrell has done something less evil than it looks like he has done; he could, for example, use Avadra Kevadra on Dumbledore later (making it look like a green stunner to Harry) in circumstances where a green stunner would not be evil and then rely on Harry to prevent any immediate revenge against himself (long enough to portkey away at least).

Comment author: jkaufman 14 December 2013 01:48:32AM 4 points [-]

in canon Avada Kedavra has a distinctive color not shared by any other spell

On the other hand Quirrell, via the basilisk, has spells that are not shared with any other wizard.

Comment author: hairyfigment 18 December 2013 12:21:06AM *  0 points [-]

True (probably). The more troubling evidence includes the fact that he acted like he thought Harry would accept his first explanation, and that we saw him Obliviate Bellatrix without ordering her to forget. Plus, Quirrell uses the phrase "stunning hexes", but those don't prevent breathing (unless that really was "her last breath escaping" in chapter 33).

Comment author: Velorien 16 December 2013 07:01:49PM 2 points [-]

Also, recall that Eliezer hasn't read all the HP books. We can't have 100% confidence that he is aware of any given fact that is true in canon.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 13 December 2013 02:22:13PM 5 points [-]

But an auror's shields might be able to block a green stunning hex, and might be able to tell the difference between the two hexes prior to that regardless.

Comment author: garabik 13 December 2013 01:58:22PM 7 points [-]

You had to try to live the other person's entire life inside your own head, at least if you wanted to create the False Memories with less than a sixteen-to-one slowdown as you separately crafted sixteen major tracks of memory

Was this by any change a reference to Permutation City? That was 17× slowdown, but that could be explained by taking the ratio of real+simulated time. But I do not get the "sixteen major tracks of memory" then.

Far fetched, I know...

Comment author: Gurkenglas 14 December 2013 11:52:07PM 0 points [-]

Nah, Permutation City specifically said that slowdown was due to the best known designs for brain emulations on current hardware, and to be made less severe in due time.

Comment author: jaime2000 13 December 2013 07:13:03AM *  14 points [-]

A nausea was in his stomach, a churning sensation that, looking back in memory, seemed both like and unlike a sense of guilt, as though it had the sensations but not quite all of the emotion.

Heh, so Quirrell doesn't know what guilt feels like.

Centaur spears can block many spells, but no one tries to block if they see that the spell is a certain shade of green. For this purpose it is useful to know some green stunning hexes.

This reminds me, if you can make a homing version of the stunning spell, can you make a homing version of the killing curse? Sounds like that would be useful.

The chapter endings for 100 and 101 are a little odd. They stop very abruptly, specially 101. Usually you would get an extra sentence or paragraph to give the chapter a sense of closure.

The reason Quirell and Harry cannot interact magically is supposed to be so Quirrell cannot read harry's mind, memory charm him, confound him, or outright imperio him. But this feels a little weak to me. What's stopping Quirrell from threatening, bribing, tricking, imperiousing, etc... a third party to do it on his behalf?

Comment author: buybuydandavis 31 December 2013 07:50:04PM 1 point [-]

The reason Quirell and Harry cannot interact magically is supposed to be so Quirrell cannot read harry's mind, memory charm him, confound him, or outright imperio him.

The reason for a fact of the HPMOR universe is narrative convenience for the author?

Maybe so, but I've been wondering if the in universe reason is that Harry is a time turned Quirrell.

Comment author: CAE_Jones 31 December 2013 08:03:41PM 1 point [-]

In canon, Harry and Voldemort have a complicated magical relationship due to two separate spells placed on Harry due to the events at Godrick's Hollow. Harry and Quirrell's connection in HPMoR appears to be a simplified version of that.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 01 January 2014 09:48:16PM 0 points [-]

In canon, was there any reason Harry couldn't cast a spell on Voldemort?

Comment author: CAE_Jones 02 January 2014 10:00:53AM 1 point [-]

In canon, Harry only ever tried casting spells on Voldemort twice, and both times it was Expeliarmis, and in both cases, Voldemort simultaneously fired Avada Kedavra, and in both cases, wandlore ended it in Harry's favor (in the first case, it was because their wands share a common core, which may or may not be due to their magical link. This one is notable, because it prevented Harry from casting on Voldemort as much as it prevented Voldemort from casting on Harry, but without his wand, Harry was still vulnerable to Voldemort's crucio. This effect was a flashier version of what happened in Azkaban, including a light show and images of the last few people Voldemort killed climbing out of his wand.)

Voldemort tried using Luceus's wand in later books to get around the wand problem, but this failed for reasons that did not seem adequately explained (something to do with wand ownership?)

I expect Quirrell was using his Alder wand in Azkaban instead of Foldemort's yew, in which case the connection in HPMoR presumably recurses a level.

If we use canon as a guide, if Harry touches Quirrell, it will cause them both pain (sense of doom), but to Quirrell it will do physical damage (Lilly's sacrificial protection). I expect there to be less of an imbalance in Harry's favor in HPMoR, but I didn't expect the troll or the unicorns, so my HPMoR predictions aren't so high confidence.

Comment author: BlindIdiotPoster 19 December 2013 01:32:38AM 0 points [-]

iirc, that spell wasn't homing, it just turned to the side at the end.

Comment author: Velorien 19 December 2013 09:38:28AM 0 points [-]

But the side it turned to was the side necessary to hit its original target. Given that spells have some sort of natural AI (like the enchantment on Harry's pouch), and that basic wanded magic is just a matter of triggering a pre-defined effect by saying an incantation while moving in the right way, it seems more likely that the spell was intelligent enough to change direction to hit its target than that Harry pre-programmed it with that specific directional change during casting.

Comment author: [deleted] 14 December 2013 03:24:29PM *  4 points [-]

Centaur spears can block many spells, but no one tries to block if they see that the spell is a certain shade of green. For this purpose it is useful to know some green stunning hexes.

At no point does Quirrell say "I just used such a spell on this centaur". I'm not ruling out that he killed the thing, and made an inferius in front of Harry. That would explain the unusually (?) sharp sense of doom that Harry felt when he "revived" it.

Also a possibility: memory charming a centaur is a lot harder, since they're only passingly similar to humans, so Quirrel had to draw more heavily on his magic, which in turn resulted in a sharper sense of doom.

Comment author: avichapman 15 January 2014 02:53:05AM 0 points [-]

An increase in the sense of doom? What if Quirrel can possess many bodies at once. He created Voldi to have a villain to fight back in the olden days and then retired Voldi when he got sick of it. He periodically takes over other people's bodies for his own ends, sometimes even when he's not in his 'zombie mode'. Perhaps the variability in the sense of doom is correlated with his extra-body activities. When he takes over the body of a dead centaur, you get an increase in the sense of doom. The fact that he's not in 'zombie mode' at the same time as possessing the centaur might makes things even worse.

This would mean of course that Voldimort isn't Quirrel - Quirrel is Voldimort. Quirrel isn't out and out evil the way Voldi is. He simply invented a larger than life character so that he can play the good guy. Being possessed of normal human emotions, his fondness for Harry could be real.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 17 January 2014 10:52:15AM *  1 point [-]

Quirrel isn't out and out evil the way Voldi is. He simply invented a larger than life character so that he can play the good guy.

Whether Voldemort's persona was or wasn't real, the suffering caused by him was real.

If I would for some reason decide to pretend that I'm Voldemort, and I would kill many people (shooting them by gun while pretending to cast Avada Kedavra), finding out this all was a disguise would prove that I'm not Voldemort, and that Voldemort's professed beliefs don't have to be my actual beliefs... but I would be a horrible person anyway.

Comment author: Vulture 23 February 2014 02:25:53AM 0 points [-]

but I would be a horrible person anyway.

It depends on what your reason for adopting the persona in the first place was.

Comment author: Velorien 15 January 2014 11:41:54AM 0 points [-]

What if Quirrel can possess many bodies at once.

Then he would rule the world the day he decided to rule the world (which he did at one point, at least extending to magical Britain). A single Quirrell is among the most powerful wizards in the world. A team of Quirrells would have no meaningful opposition, even before he took advantage of the hive-mind benefits of instant coordination and reaction.

Being possessed of normal human emotions, his fondness for Harry could be real.

That would imply that all the words and actions that portray him as a sociopath are an act for Harry's benefit. What would his motivation be in doing this?

Comment author: [deleted] 15 January 2014 06:43:10AM 0 points [-]

I don't think inferii are possessed by their creators. Pretty sure they're just zombies that do the summoners' bidding. I always thought the sense of doom was related to how strongly Quirrel was drawing on his power.

Comment author: alex_zag_al 20 December 2013 05:39:51PM *  4 points [-]

Wow, it's amazing how obvious the Inferius seems now that you've said it.

I was reading another comment elsewhere on the page which claimed there must be some magical explanation for how Harry's managed to miss that Quirrell=Voldemort. And my first thought was, "yeah, he sat there with his wand on the centaur for a long time instead of just saying 'Innervate' and then 'Obliviate' and Harry still believed him". That actually seemed to me like an extraordinary thing that needed explaining.

But, then I remembered: I didn't think of it. I read this chapter days ago, I've been talking about it, theorizing, and *I didn't see it. And now it seems so obvious that I look for a supernatural explanation for why Harry didn't see it?

EDIT: As I brought up elsewhere, another reason Quirrell would be drawing heavily on his magic is to read Firenze's mind everything he knows about the future.

Comment author: TobyBartels 21 December 2013 06:02:55AM 0 points [-]

But you're forgetting that Harry is smarter than you! :-P

Comment author: Nornagest 21 December 2013 07:24:17AM 4 points [-]

I'm actually not sure how bright Harry's supposed to be.

He's not stupid, obviously. But, from a Watsonian perspective, he's leaning very heavily on rationality skills and an unusual reading list for an 11-year-old, Hermione seems to have him beat in some respects as far as raw intelligence goes, and being the smartest person in a class of a hundred and change isn't that great an achievement in the scheme of things.

From a Doylist perspective, making Harry get a lot of mileage out of raw intelligence would undermine the message Eliezer's presumably trying to preach.

Comment author: Velorien 14 December 2013 04:20:42PM 5 points [-]

At no point does Quirrell say "I just used such a spell on this centaur".

This doesn't matter very much, though, since we know Quirrell would not hesitate to utter a direct lie if it served his purposes.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 December 2013 01:33:32PM 0 points [-]

That's true. Quirrell has played the "mislead without lying" game in the past though, hence I'm not ruling it out.

Comment author: SyncHole 14 December 2013 03:53:28AM 13 points [-]

And if the homing version of "Stupify" is "Stuporfy," how ridiculously twisted would AK get? "Averder Kerderber?"

Comment author: shminux 14 December 2013 08:58:17AM 22 points [-]

Abracadabra, surely.

Comment author: CronoDAS 13 December 2013 10:27:28AM 1 point [-]

He doesn't trust a third party to do this without getting caught?

Comment author: ikrase 13 December 2013 08:44:10AM -1 points [-]

IDK. Moody suggests that the spell might already be mildly homing or at least very easy to target.

Comment author: Velorien 13 December 2013 03:21:37PM 3 points [-]

In canon at least, the protagonists do nothing but dodge Avada Kedavras in a number of confrontation scenes. It has to be that way, because no Death Eater would be stupid enough to use anything but Avada Kedavra on a target they weren't trying to take alive, and most characters had enough plot armour not to die in a random firefight.

Comment author: kilobug 13 December 2013 05:26:18PM 1 point [-]

no Death Eater would be stupid enough to use anything but Avada Kedavra on a target they weren't trying to take alive

Doesn't AK use more magical energy than a simple stun ? Or just require longer to cast ? "Avada Kedavra" is longer to say than "Stupefy" or "Expelliarmus", at least.

Comment author: Velorien 13 December 2013 09:00:05PM 2 points [-]

But it is unblockable and precludes the target being revived in the first case or recovering their wand/grabbing someone else's/running away in the latter. In particular, HPMOR makes a very big deal out of any decent wizard being able to put up a dozen different shields, sometimes all but instantly, so unblockable spells are an extremely big deal.

Comment author: ikrase 17 December 2013 08:03:32PM -1 points [-]

In HPMOR, it also penetrates at least some thickness of cover, according to Moody, who also suggests that it does need significant mana. (How much mana? I'm getting the impression that Stupify is acceptable for Auror-level combat despite being castable by top first-years.)

It also cannot be countered. We don't see much of countering in HPMOR, but we do see Susan try to counter an extremely powerful bully's spell in the SPHEW.

Comment author: ChrisHallquist 13 December 2013 06:32:05AM -1 points [-]

Rot13 for being partly based on a author's note Eliezer has recommended people not read:

Abg fher ubj gb gnxr guvf hcqngr vagb nppbhag jura svthevat cebonovyvgl Urezvbar ernyyl qbrf pbzr onpx nf na "nyvpbea cevaprff." Ba gur bar unaq, ersrerapr gb "nyvpbea" frrzf gb or frggvat gung hc. Ba gur bgure unaq, V'z univat n uneqre gvzr cnefvat "havpbea ubea cevaprff" guna "jvatrq havpbea cevaprff." Ba gur guveq unaq, guvf.

Comment author: Gabriel 13 December 2013 08:32:44AM 0 points [-]

Be, lbh xabj, guvf. Abg fher vs gebyyvat.

Comment author: ChrisHallquist 14 December 2013 11:53:24AM 2 points [-]

That's a hypothetical question, not an assertion. I'm beginning to build up a model of Eliezer as someone who is quite good at implying false things for the sake of trolling, but is very particular about not actually saying false things without very clear THIS IS A JOKE markers.

Comment author: hairyfigment 18 December 2013 02:49:24AM -1 points [-]

Seems pretty jokey on its face, so that doesn't help much. Also, vs Uneel unf gur obql cerfreirq va fbzr sbez, ur gurbergvpnyyl unf n jnl gb oevat ure onpx gung frrzf gurzngvpnyyl nccebcevngr naq svgf gur Crireryy cebcurpl. Fbzrbar nyernql abgrq gung Ercneb zvtug jbex ba uhznaf vs hfrq jvgu Uneel'f erqhpgvbavfg senzr bs zvaq. Abj, gur fcryy beqvanevyl pna'g svk Yhcva'f eborf, fb gung nybar jba'g jbex. Ohg pnaba tvirf hf ernfba gb guvax gung gur Ryqre Jnaq pna vapernfr gur fcryy'f cbjre, naq gung Uneel jvyy fbzrubj trg uvf unaqf ba vg. V ubcr gur Erfheerpgvba Fgbar cynlf vgf ebyr ol yrggvat fvz-Urezvbar rkcynva gur jnaq cneg gb Uneel.

Comment author: Swimmy 13 December 2013 07:03:02PM 0 points [-]

Ha, clearly Gjvyvtug Fcnexyr vf Oryyngevk va qvfthvfr naq gur jubyr guvat jnf fbzr ovmneeb frghc gb znxr Uneel guvax Dhveeryy vf qlvat.

Comment author: iceman 13 December 2013 04:36:01AM *  29 points [-]

Premise: Quirrell plays the game one level higher than Harry Potter.

Observation: This entire incident is uncharacteristically sloppy. Why were the unicorn corpses found? Why was Quirrell discovered?

Observation: Harry Potter is now really pissed off that herds of unicorns to slay aren't standard procedure for stable-izing people with life threatening injuries. He has just been given another "if only" to fixate on. It has been brought to his attention in ways that wouldn't trip his "why am I being told this" sense.

Father had told Draco that to fathom a strange plot, one technique was to look at what ended up happening, assume it was the intended result, and ask who benefited.

Hypothesis: Reminding Harry that there were ways the wizarding world could have saved Hermione was the primary effect. Possible secondary effects may include impressing on Harry just how ridiculously powerful he is. Perhaps implanting the desire to save Quirrell into Harry's mind? Quirrell may not actually need the blood right now, though I suspect it doesn't hurt.

Comment author: keen 30 May 2014 11:58:24PM *  0 points [-]

Doesn't this plan seem rather risky if the primary benefits are so limited?

On the other hand, now Quirrell has a way to convince Harry to help him get the Philosopher's Stone, or to consider leaving Hogwarts in spite of the danger to help him with a "life-saving ritual".

On the other other hand, telling Harry about these life-saving methods could just make him angry that no one mentioned them with respect to Hermione.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 31 December 2013 07:58:35PM 0 points [-]

Another effect - Harry's now thinking about the power of unicorn blood to keep people alive.

Comment author: hairyfigment 19 December 2013 07:24:42AM 0 points [-]

Related point that I haven't seen: chapter 100 increased the probability that Harry would bring any clever idea for defeating death straight to the Defense Professor.

I like to think that 101 decreased it again, and that Harry might have talked to Draco about those false memories (thereby learning that Quirrell couldn't make guilt feel real). But we'll see.

Comment author: pjeby 14 December 2013 07:18:26AM 1 point [-]

Harry Potter is now really pissed off that herds of unicorns to slay aren't standard procedure for stable-izing people with life threatening injuries

I don't think unicorns are actually kept in stables, despite their horse-like anatomy. ;-)

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 December 2013 10:04:08PM 1 point [-]

Hypothesis: Reminding Harry that there were ways the wizarding world could have saved Hermione was the primary effect.

Hermione was dead before she could have killed a unicorn and drank it's blood.

Comment author: kilobug 13 December 2013 11:13:28PM 0 points [-]

Depends exactly how it works. Is someone dead when the heart is stopped, but can still be restarted ? What happens if someone is forced fed unicorn blood (and the unicorn dies in the process) just after cardiac arrest, but when no damage is done to the brain yet ?

Comment author: linkhyrule5 14 December 2013 01:10:16AM 0 points [-]

By the time a capable wizard (Dumbledore) was on the scene, Hermione was dead.

I doubt there's anything unicorn blood can do that phoenix tears can't, so.

Comment author: Xachariah 15 December 2013 12:24:06AM *  15 points [-]

I'd think that unicorn blood has unique properties on phoenix tears.

Otherwise Quirrel would be tracking down Phoenixes and... showing them the first 5 minutes of 'Up' or something.

Comment author: TobyBartels 15 December 2013 06:31:21AM 5 points [-]

Yes. "Up" was a fairly good movie, but it doesn't hold a candle to the short film that constituted its first 5 or 10 minutes. That should have won an Oscar.

Comment author: Gunnar_Zarncke 27 December 2014 11:53:19PM 2 points [-]
Comment author: TobyBartels 28 December 2014 02:33:49AM 0 points [-]

I prefer the original audio, but that might be too much to hope to find on YouTube.

Comment author: Baughn 15 December 2013 09:22:16PM *  2 points [-]

I could rewatch Up, except that doing so would require rewatching the first ten minutes.

And I can't do that.

Comment author: TobyBartels 16 December 2013 02:22:49AM 0 points [-]

I know that you're probably not serious but … you can always skip that part. You already remember what happens.

Comment author: Desrtopa 13 December 2013 03:21:31PM 3 points [-]

I don't think knowing that unicorn blood has uses which may not be properly exploited by wizarding society changes his opinion of wizarding society much anyway. It's kind of a straw on a logpile.

I think it's more likely that Quirrell's planned reveal to Harry was his impending mortality (which, considering the horcruxes and the spell which can restore him to his original state, is probably not so unavoidable as he implied.)

Comment author: Velorien 13 December 2013 03:48:59PM 8 points [-]

(which, considering the horcruxes and the spell which can restore him to his original state, is probably not so unavoidable as he implied.)

While he's certainly determined to make Harry believe he's going to die ("this is the last time I will be able to do this for you"), it is likely he is lying for a couple of additional reasons. The man obsessed with not dying, prepared to tear his very soul to shreds to stay alive, has

a) been trying to prevent Harry from seeking a way to bring back the dead, and

b) been doing so purely as part of an effort to save the world - which he has no reason to care about unless he expects to remain in it.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 31 December 2013 07:55:16PM 0 points [-]

a) been trying to prevent Harry from seeking a way to bring back the dead

If Quirrell is going through time by using up bodies and moving to new ones, applying a bring "back from death" spell to a former host might force him back to his previous used up body.

Comment author: ygert 13 December 2013 09:32:31AM 0 points [-]

Intresting. I do think that Quirrell needs the blood, but tipping his hand this way did seem to have those effects on Harry, and I would be very surprised if that was unintentional on Quirrell's part.

Comment author: EndlessStrategy 13 December 2013 04:14:45AM 13 points [-]

This isn't a particularly bad thing, but I must say, chapter 100 was perhaps the most self indulgent this story has had yet.

Comment author: somervta 13 December 2013 07:39:17AM 1 point [-]

Tto whom is it indulgent? Harry, Eliezer, or the reader?

Comment author: EndlessStrategy 13 December 2013 04:13:27PM 18 points [-]

I would say Eliezer. Introducing another event from the first year of school and subverting it utterly. Blatantly referencing Twilight AND My Little Pony (to the point of bending canon for its inclusion) AND a Methods or Rationality fanwork AND an obscure math program AND Several other cameos sprinkled throughout.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 13 December 2013 06:07:58PM 3 points [-]

Does it matter for this discussion that MLP canon unicorns are sentient?

Comment author: gjm 12 December 2013 10:29:24PM 14 points [-]

Nothing specifically to do with these chapters, but it's only just occurred to me: Is it supposed to be significant that the initials of Potter-Evans-Verres are also the start of "Peverell" (indeed, you can get more if you take a few more letters of "Verres")? It seems a rather superficial observation, but "Verres" is a really unusual surname and it would be nice to have an explanation for why Eliezer chose it.

Comment author: CAE_Jones 14 December 2013 11:30:52AM 1 point [-]

Eliezer mentioned in a past discussion where he got the name Verres. Iirc it was a reference to someone/something, though I don't remember who/what. (This falsified my standing hypothesis at the time, which was that EY got the name from Latin for "truth".)

Comment author: sketerpot 14 December 2013 08:17:22PM *  6 points [-]

"Verres" came from combining "Vassar" and "Herreshoff". Here's the thread you're remembering.

Comment author: drethelin 13 December 2013 06:18:53PM 2 points [-]

I think there's a good chance Eliezer started writing before he read any of the books that have the name peverell in them?

Comment author: TobyBartels 15 December 2013 06:14:00AM 0 points [-]

AFAIK, he still hasn't read them, but he should have read ABOUT them before beginning.

Comment author: Dentin 13 December 2013 09:43:41PM 10 points [-]

Peverell -> Potter Evans Verres Quirrel?

Yay pattern matching.

Comment author: somervta 14 December 2013 08:15:01AM -1 points [-]

PEVQ? erell = rrel? Doesn't really work.

Comment author: Ishaan 12 December 2013 10:13:10PM *  16 points [-]

Why did Quirrell allow the unicorn corpses to be found? Why didn't he dispose of the corpse by making it disappear, instead of trying to pass it off as a predator? Would anyone notice if a unicorn vanished without leaving a corpse? ( I suppose they might, since they're medically valuable, but since unicorns are known not to have predators the predated corpse is hardly a good cover, as we saw. Vanishing the corpse would have made it take longer to notice.)

Anyway, this is one of the few times we see Quirrell's plot clearly failing without anyone actually acting to thwart him. Is it plausible that he was actually unable to kill and drink a unicorn without anyone immediately noticing?

Comment author: alex_zag_al 20 December 2013 04:57:05PM 0 points [-]

And if he's going to leave a corpse, he could at least do it silently.

Remember that Tracey ran towards the sound of a unicorn being attacked?

That's what makes me sure that Quirrell wanted to get caught. There's just no reason for him to skip the silencing spell, otherwise. (Unless he's hiding from someone that can detect the use of magic?)

I don't know how he got Tracey to approach, though.

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 December 2013 03:09:01PM 4 points [-]

The alternative is that Quirrell does want people to know that unicorns get attacked.

If you want to make a magical reanimation ritual, a species that helps people on the verge of death seems to be a path to go. This whole interaction gave Harry information about unicorns.

Comment author: ygert 13 December 2013 09:33:54AM 3 points [-]

Hagrid would have noticed. Hagrid named each individual unicorn in the forest, and if one disappeared, he'd definitely go to Dumbledore about it.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 13 December 2013 02:35:27PM 5 points [-]

Doesn't work. Hagrid says explicitly in the chapter that he's had almost no interaction with the unicorns.

Comment author: xian16 21 March 2014 01:45:44AM 0 points [-]

Right? How could he, he's not a young virgin (probably).

Comment author: ygert 14 December 2013 03:31:18PM *  2 points [-]

He did notice when one died... No interaction does not mean being unaware of their existence (or lack thereof.)

Specific proof is that he knew Alicorn was dead before they found the body.

He can know that the unicorns live in a place, see the signs of their passing, without actually going up to them and interacting with them.

Comment author: Waffle_Iron 13 December 2013 05:33:05AM 1 point [-]

Since school children were being used to investigate the dead unicorn it seems that passing it off as a predator worked fairly well.

Comment author: Mestroyer 12 December 2013 11:09:43PM 2 points [-]

This bothered me too. To fanwank something, perhaps when near death and desparately in need of unicorn pony blood Quirrell's mental capacity is reduced.

Comment author: Ishaan 12 December 2013 11:30:45PM *  0 points [-]

Ah, that's possible too. I was more implying that since such a mistake is implausible, it must have been intentional on Quirrell's part- for example, perhaps it was a purposefully orchestrated plot to kill Draco. (actually, now that I thought of that, it seems obvious that this is exactly what it was)

Comment author: RolfAndreassen 13 December 2013 12:33:08AM 2 points [-]

How does he arrange for Draco to go to a Silver Slytherin meeting at exactly the right time to get caught by Filch, and then for Filch to give Draco that precise detention? That's a lot of Imperiuses or other manipulation.

Comment author: Ishaan 13 December 2013 01:10:53AM *  0 points [-]

He did it with hermione, no?

He just needs to know about SS meeting beforehand and tip off Filch about it without linking the tip to his ID. Only one hard manipulation here, which is to suggest a specific detention.

Comment author: ikrase 13 December 2013 08:34:43AM -1 points [-]

And that could probably be done with appropriate False Memory Charm.

He's got to have a time turner.

Comment author: Mestroyer 12 December 2013 11:48:53PM 1 point [-]

If he wanted to kill Draco, why not just AK him without being seen in the middle of the forest, and not reveal that the unicorn-eater is Draco's murderer? Revealing that gives the heroes a place to actually strike back against the student-killer, which is the unicorn population.

Comment author: Ishaan 13 December 2013 12:03:34AM *  0 points [-]

1) Dunno, but I'm guessing it's for the same reason why he didn't just AK Hermione instead of using a troll? We haven't been told the full extent of magic useful for forensics in this story - for example, in canon there is a spell that allows you to check which spells have been recently cast, so if you find an AK'ed corpse it would be fairly simple to check everyone's wands for recently cast AK to narrow down suspects. (Not that there aren't other ways to discreetly kill, but my main point is that we as audience aren't aware of the constraints involved.)

2) Hogwarts ward doesn't operate outside of Hogwarts, and the ward pointed fingers at Quirrell for Hermione's death (presumably he possessed the troll or something). It wouldn't do for that to happen repeatedly - how many times can one use the "framing" defense? Doing it in the forest avoids the wards, the dead unicorns were a pretext for getting Draco out to the forest, and the unicorn killer identity creates a possible extra suspect,

Or, are you saying that it allows the heroes to fight back by simply relocating the unicorns? That's true...which means that Quirrell doesn't think he will desperately need additional unicorn blood in the future.

Comment author: Desrtopa 13 December 2013 01:42:20AM 2 points [-]

Dunno, but I'm guessing it's for the same reason why he didn't just AK Hermione instead of using a troll? We haven't been told the full extent of magic useful for forensics in this story

An AK'ed corpse in particular should be pretty easy to diagnose; the total lack of any other apparent causes of death should give it away.

However, there's nothing in particular to prevent feeding the corpse to any of the various horrible creatures in the Forbidden Forest.

Comment author: Mestroyer 13 December 2013 12:11:03AM 0 points [-]

Hmm, is the Forbidden Forest within Hogwarts wards? Because I thought the reason he didn't kill Hermione himself was so that Harry wouldn't take it seriously when the wards said that "the defense professor" killed her.

Comment author: Ishaan 13 December 2013 12:26:34AM *  0 points [-]

If the wards do extend to the forest, Tracy can say she saw a dark thing which was not Quirrell kill Draco. If the wards don't extend to the forest, killing him in the forest doesn't alert the wards. The first is a motive against discreet killings, the second is a motive against doing it inside hogwarts.

Comment author: MugaSofer 12 December 2013 08:33:01PM *  6 points [-]

It seems the entire race of centaurs have taken something of a hit - in the books, they were perfectly aware that their divination was based on one's state of mind and could easily be applied to the patterns perceived in, for example, twisting smoke from a campfire.

I wouldn't mind much - Eliezer may not even have known or remembered that - except that this is not a new lesson for the readers, and it seems a missed opportunity to talk about pattern-matching, maybe tie it in with some of the other stuff about subconscious knowledge or desires in that scene.

I'm torn between vaguely hoping Eliezer will decide to change this, and uncertainty as to whether he even reads these comments. Heck, why should he? I certainly can't write anything like HPMOR, why would he expect to get a useful suggestion from such a comment? (And it doesn't help I'm signalling incompetence with typos from this darn phone, props to TobyBartels and others for reminding me to fix them.)

Comment author: TobyBartels 15 December 2013 06:12:28AM 1 point [-]

Yes, please fix the typos! You have a good point, and it's getting lost.

Comment author: gjm 12 December 2013 10:11:41PM *  13 points [-]

It seems that your entire first paragraph -- which one might have expected to end with something explaining what it seems is true about the entire race of centaurs rather than stopping in mid-sentence.

[EDITED to note that now MugaSofer has fixed the mistake I was commenting on.]

Comment author: MugaSofer 23 December 2013 02:39:38AM 0 points [-]

Thanks! Forgot to update one end of the sentence when I changed the wording at the other.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 13 December 2013 02:37:06PM 2 points [-]

I think the missing phrase from context is something like "don't know that in HPMR".

Comment author: gjm 13 December 2013 06:47:36PM 2 points [-]

Yes, I think so too.

Comment author: knb 12 December 2013 08:26:24PM 2 points [-]

I assume the centaur tried to kill Harry because he prophesied that "the skies will soon be empty" because of Harry. Based on what we know about Harry, the skies could be "emptied" because of Dyson spheres or star-lifting.

Although, if you look at it that way, it would still take thousands of years before the skies appeared "empty," since we're getting light from thousands of years ago. I'm not sure if a centaur would use "soon" in this sense, so perhaps Eliezer has something different in mind.

Comment author: RomeoStevens 13 December 2013 12:53:29AM *  5 points [-]

time turners exist
harry wants to become god
people have died in the past

Comment author: ygert 15 December 2013 11:40:07AM *  1 point [-]

Inspired by this, I wrote some more of these, summarizing the first five chapters of HPMOR.

Comment author: knb 14 December 2013 04:24:06AM 0 points [-]

What is your point?

Comment author: RomeoStevens 14 December 2013 10:01:49PM *  0 points [-]

If Harry unlocks magical godhood the transformation might be instantaneous from this timeline's persective.

Comment author: TobyBartels 13 December 2013 05:05:58AM 6 points [-]

You should edit that so that the last line has only five syllables.

Comment author: VAuroch 14 December 2013 01:03:29AM 1 point [-]

time turners exist

harry wants to become god

some already died

Comment author: Alsadius 13 December 2013 10:32:42PM 1 point [-]

"people have died before" "people have died in past"

Comment author: ygert 14 December 2013 03:33:54PM 1 point [-]

In the past. You lose elegance points if you have to drop words in order to fit what you want to say in the requisate number of syllables.

Comment author: Alsadius 14 December 2013 06:05:52PM 0 points [-]

"in past" is a perfectly valid form. How I talk, really.

Comment author: TobyBartels 15 December 2013 06:10:50AM 0 points [-]

I've heard "in future" before (my mind tags it as British), so "in past" makes sense. But you still have 6 syllables (unless "people have" is only 2, as "peep-lav"?). I came up with "Folks have died before." myself.

Comment author: Alsadius 16 December 2013 06:44:24AM 0 points [-]

I'm bad at syllables. Any time I try haikuing, I almost invariably think one word quickly, ignore the excess syllables I'm not pronouncing, and mess it up.

Comment author: ygert 13 December 2013 09:49:49AM *  4 points [-]

time turners exist

Harry wants to become god

not all still live, yet

Perhaps?

Or:

time turners exist

Harry wants to become god

There are some still dead

Comment author: WalterL 12 December 2013 07:36:01PM 2 points [-]

Oof, this was a punch to the gut of a chapter. I've gone from "Harry, Wake Up!" to a sort of baffled expectation.

What on earth is up with you, Harry? You are usually so clearsighted! Are you still grieving for Hermione? What possible ethical system justifies the decisions of this chapter?

A speech about the power of truth, then a cover up. Punishment for Filch and Hagrid, but mercy for the centaur and Quirrel.

Feh, this is just what the entry describes as refusing to process something I've already processed. There's an easy description for what's going on here, for treasuring some grievances and renouncing others. Harry is doing exactly what Snape told him Lilly did. He is being shallow, and I hope he's able to change.

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 December 2013 04:57:40PM 2 points [-]

Harry doesn't believe in death or Azkaban as valid punishments. Harry would oppose killing Filch or Hagrid.

If Harry would reveal what Quirrell did the punishment might be Azkaban.

Comment author: WalterL 13 December 2013 09:09:20PM 0 points [-]

Imagine that I'm a pal who explained the modern analogous position to you. I tell you that I think our prisons are inhumane, and the death penalty is problematic. I know a guy who beat up 3 cops, a teacher and some kids and drugged them so they forgot what happened when they interrupted him slaughtering some horses, but I don't report him, and in fact helped him cover up his crimes because of my belief. We still buds?

Setting that aside I'm not clear at all on why Harry would still have a problem with the Azkaban/death penalty. Earlier, sure, it made sense, but now that he's declared himself the Vanquisher of Death he just seems confused.

Suffering is certainly bad, but Harry's cool with False Memory charms, and those can negate suffering. The time lost becomes the issue, and Harry intends that folks shall live forever.

I mean, he's going to conquer death, right? Not only that, he's going to resurrect Hermione, who is dead and whose body is gone presumably by now decayed. So he's confident that he will be able to resurrect someone based on, effectively, name and description. Surely he doesn't think his abilities as a researcher are terribly singular, never to be duplicated.

I mean, if he might in theory do it then its ultimately doable, then someday it'll be done, and all will rise.

So.what matter then, when precisely any given individual dies, so long as it does not alter this future? Worst case scenario. Quirrel goes to Azkaban for a few months before his disease overcomes him, and dies a howling deranged lunatic. Later on he's resurrected, false memory charms fix his trauma and bob's your uncle.

Comment author: hairyfigment 18 December 2013 02:13:25AM 0 points [-]

Hermione, who is dead and whose body is gone

I tend to disagree. In fact, if you really meant to write "decayed", I think you're transparently wrong, because Quirrellmort wouldn't let it decay - he'd stick the body in box A (so to speak).

That seems like the main alternative to the obvious fulfillment of the ancient prophecy. I do worry about it, since why wouldn't Q have done this? (If he's figured out reflective decision theory, I'm officially confused about the direction of this story.) But if Harry transfigured the body quickly enough, he might have left Q without a good opportunity.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 14 December 2013 01:17:01AM 1 point [-]

You're allowed to have a utility function over things you can't perceive. I'm allowed to say that I value a life where I got tortured and mind-wiped less than I value a life where neither happens.

Comment author: gjm 14 December 2013 12:14:58AM 2 points [-]

I mean, he's going to conquer death, right? [...] So what matter then, when precisely any individual dies [...] ?

I think it's worth distinguishing between "Harry intends to conquer death by any means possible" and "Harry knows that he will succeed in conquering death". If the first is true and the second false, he still has ample reason to try to stop people dying prematurely.

Comment author: Dentin 13 December 2013 11:14:48PM 22 points [-]

Let's try an analogy that's a bit closer to the mark:

"I know a guy who needs to eat freshly killed bald eagle meat every now and again to stay alive, and while doing so he was discovered by some forest rangers and kids out hiking on public land. He quickly used a gas grenade to knock them out without harming them, then gave them a drug that caused them to lose their short term memory of the event. He then dialed 911 on one of their cell phones and watched from a distance to make sure they didn't get eaten before help arrived."

Note that there are several things here which don't have good conversions into Real Life due to magic. In cases like that, you can't just pick the 'closest equivalent' and expect it to make sense. Sometimes, you'll have to drag something magical into the real world as well.

Analogies are hard, at least if you're trying to be accurate. Doing a double analogy to see if you can get back the original helps. For example, let's take your analogy, and try to convert it back into the original scenario:

"I know a guy who was killing some horses in the forest when he was discovered by a group of aurors, a school teacher, and some kids. This guy beat up everyone using curses that take weeks to heal and must heal painfully and naturally, then he stunned them and memory charmed them to get away with it"

This is a good way to tell where your analogy breaks down. In particular:

1) [minor] horses in the muggle world are typically owned by someone, with the very rare exception being free range horses on public land. Be default, the reader of your analogy will assume that the horses are unspecial and owned by someone. This is very different from killing something unowned but special, like a bald eagle.

2) [major] "killing a unicorn because my life depends on it" is turned into "killing some horses with no justification."

3) [critical] beating up a person to the point that they can't function is a much, much bigger deal in the real world than using stunning magic, where the stuns are reversible and extremely temporary, and healing magic makes major wounds no more threatening than a hangnail.

4) [minor] Quirrel did not leave until he knew that the aurors, teacher, and students would be safe (because of the presence of Harry's future copy), but this is lost in your analogy.

5) [minor] Dumbledore himself uses memory charms to wipe Harry's patronus 2.0 from the minds of three aurors, so memory charms are clearly less 'against the rules' in wizarding society than mind altering drugs are in muggle society.

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 December 2013 09:49:57PM 5 points [-]

Imagine that I'm a pal who explained the modern analogous position to you. I tell you that I think our prisons are inhumane, and the death penalty is problematic. I know a guy who beat up 3 cops, a teacher and some kids and drugged them so they forgot what happened when they interrupted him slaughtering some horses, but I don't report him, and in fact helped him cover up his crimes because of my belief. We still buds?

You confuse agreement about moral principles with the judgement that a moral system is consistent. There are a lot of possible ethical systems that I don't like. That doesn't mean they aren't consistent ethical systems.

Let's say I know a homosexual from a country where it's illegal with the death penalty. He was in a situation where 3 cops witnessed him engage in an homosexual act. He managed to make them temporarily unconscious and drug them up to forget that they found him.

Would I let that person get away with that? Probably yes. How I treat someone who opposes a cop depends a lot on whether I believe in the law of the land of that cop.

Suffering is certainly bad, but Harry's cool with False Memory charms, and those can negate suffering.

I don't think there's evidence to the claim that false memory charms can negate all suffering.

Not only that, he's going to resurrect Hermione, who is dead and whose body is gone presumably by now decayed.

I don't think it decayes in the transformed form.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 13 December 2013 02:42:51PM 8 points [-]

A speech about the power of truth, then a cover up. Punishment for Filch and Hagrid, but mercy for the centaur and Quirrel.

Consequentialism in action? Hogwarts would be better off with Filch and Hagrid removed, but no future purpose is served by exposing Quirrell or killing the Centaur.

Comment author: kilobug 13 December 2013 05:29:27PM 1 point [-]

I don't think Hogwarts would be better without Hagrid - Hagrid as teacher is dangerous and terrific, but Hagrid as gamekeeper is quite good in his job. He just needs a bit more of supervision to ensure he doesn't keep a dragon or an acromantula as a pet.

Comment author: Velorien 13 December 2013 09:02:54PM 3 points [-]

He just needs a bit more of supervision to ensure he doesn't keep a dragon or an acromantula as a pet.

Then again, supervision of teachers is something that would never ordinarily happen in Hogwarts.

Comment author: Mestroyer 12 December 2013 11:16:37PM *  7 points [-]

power of truth, then a cover up

Harry recognizes the power of truth, and doesn't want give that power out indiscriminately. That makes perfect sense.

Punishment for Filch and Hagrid, but mercy for the centaur and Quirrel.

Harry doesn't care about sentient-but-not-sapient things (or thinks that animals including unicorns are mostly not even sentient), so under his ethical system, Quirrel hasn't done anything wrong (which he knows about). Harry didn't have the power to "punish" the centaur through anything short of death. He knows the centaur is only after him, and not children in general, and that it probably won't get another chance to kill him. Filch and Hagrid have not only done things that are bad, but they are dangers to students.

Comment author: WalterL 13 December 2013 08:58:27AM 7 points [-]

I disagree. Harry watches Quirrel stun the professor and 3 Aurors, let them tumble off their brooms and false memory charm them, but Quirrel hasn't done anything wrong? That's, what, 8 felony equivalents at least? (Assault x4, and presuming False Memory Charm would be at least equivalent to assault, probably more like rape).

Filch's crime, for which Harry wants him to serve jail time, is that he sent Draco & co to the Forbidden Forest, potentially exposing them to assault. Quirrel actually assaulted them.

To grossly simplify, there's a consistent set of ethics that says that Filch and Quirrel both need to be punished. (action -> consequences) There's another, which says both ought to be forgiven. (no harm, no foul) Forgiving those who are cool and punishing those who are lame is unethical, particularly given the disparity between their offenses.

On another tack, how on earth can Harry know anything about the Centaur? It attacked a child after rambling on for a while. Jumping to the conclusion that its fixated on him and won't just attack some other child is really arbitrary. I mean, plenty of serial bad guys fixated on their victims, it doesn't make them safe for other folks. Today 'the stars' told Centaur to kill Harry. Tomorrow they tell him to kill Ron, or Hagrid, or set himself on fire. I wonder what they told him to do yesterday?

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 December 2013 07:06:59PM 13 points [-]

Filch's crime, for which Harry wants him to serve jail time, is that he sent Draco & co to the Forbidden Forest, potentially exposing them to assault.

Filch testified that he intentionally wanted to expose them to assault and a chance of dying. Quirrel didn't do anything that gave Draco a chance of dying.

Quirrel on the other hand drinks the unicorn blood to safe it's own life. As far as Harry thinks Qurirrel also only stunned the centaur and wanted to safe Harry's life.

For Harry morality being alive and saving lifes is very important. Short term pain and being stunned doesn't factor much into Harry's utility calculations.

Comment author: maia 13 December 2013 04:53:56PM 4 points [-]

Jumping to the conclusion that its fixated on him and won't just attack some other child is really arbitrary.

Maybe this is just my narrative epistemic advantage talking, but: the centaur mentioned stuff relevant to the prophecy, knew specifically who Harry was, and probably was trying to kill him for a very specific reason.

Even if Harry doesn't realize what the centaur is talking about, it seems to me that of the people who try to attack and kill Harry Potter, probably most of them are actually trying to kill him specifically and are not just random psychopaths.