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lmn comments on Thoughts on civilization collapse - Less Wrong Discussion

15 Post author: Stuart_Armstrong 04 May 2017 10:41AM

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Comment author: Lumifer 16 May 2017 01:41:08AM *  2 points [-]

they are in fact robbing, killing, and raping people

Just like the the natives :-/

in most western European countries some who says something mean about the migrants gets a harsher sentence

Bullshit. Yes, I know, there are cherries you can pick. Still bullshit.

Why not? Because he said something false?

That too, but mostly because the content of this rant was "I don't like immigrants" and that was basically it. Adding a lot of emotionally coloured words just makes it look like a temper tantrum.

It is possible to rationally discuss the issue of immigration in Western Europe -- basically, the Europeans are not breeding (TFR is way under 2.0 in most countries) and more warm bodies do help with the economy. But the IQ and cultural issues are a big deal. The problem is complicated and crimmigrant rants do not help.

Japan is leading the way on the "we don't reproduce and no immigrants are allowed" path. Wait a bit and things will become clearer.

Comment author: lmn 16 May 2017 07:55:32AM 4 points [-]

they are in fact robbing, killing, and raping people

Just like the the natives :-/

There is a significant qualitative difference in amount here.

in most western European countries some who says something mean about the migrants gets a harsher sentence

Bullshit. Yes, I know, there are cherries you can pick. Still bullshit.

So basically you're conceding I'm right, but still want to call bullshit on it. Sounds like a classic sign of cognitive dissonance.

Japan is leading the way on the "we don't reproduce and no immigrants are allowed" path. Wait a bit and things will become clearer.

Well, so far they aren't experiencing a huge increase rape and general crime.

Comment author: Good_Burning_Plastic 19 May 2017 09:21:08AM 1 point [-]

So basically you're conceding I'm right, but still want to call bullshit on it.

If by "some" you literally meant nothing but "more than zero", fine. (But "some" people get harsh sentences for pretty much anything, so "some people get harsh sentences for X" is not very informative about how little X is tolerated.)

But usually "somebody who does X undergoes Y" is used to imply something like "if you do X you'll most likely undergo Y", which in this case is very far from being the case. (I just have to spend some time on Facebook to see dozens of western Europeans saying mean things about migrants and AFAIK hardly any of them have ever gotten any sentence.) So I'm getting the impression that you were using the literal meaning as the motte and the colloquial meaning as the bailey.

Comment author: lmn 20 May 2017 02:19:50AM 4 points [-]

If by "some" you literally meant nothing but "more than zero", fine. (But "some" people get harsh sentences for pretty much anything, so "some people get harsh sentences for X" is not very informative about how little X is tolerated.)

So you consider harsh sentences for pointing out true facts about migrant behavior to be reasonable as long as it only happens to "some" people? You may want to learn about how chilling effects on free speech work.

Comment author: Good_Burning_Plastic 21 May 2017 08:01:46AM *  1 point [-]

No, I don't. I was just pointing out that you picked a very disingenuous way of stating that. (You could have said instead, for example, "some people who said something mean about the migrants have gotten harsher sentences")

true facts

Huh. I've been living for a year in a city where most of the population is foreign-born (myself included) and it doesn't look like it's going to hell. In particular I feel safer here than in certain other places with many fewer immigrants.

You may want to learn about how chilling effects on free speech work.

Judging by the number of people I hear saying ridiculous things about migrants every day, I wonder what would happen if such "chilling effects" were not in place -- would my Facebook feed ever contain anything else at all?

Comment author: Lumifer 16 May 2017 04:05:35PM 1 point [-]

basically you're conceding I'm right

LOL. You wish. Work on your reading comprehension, maybe?

so far they aren't experiencing a huge increase rape and general crime

Being extinct is a very peaceful state.

Comment author: lmn 16 May 2017 10:40:46PM 4 points [-]

in most western European countries some who says something mean about the migrants gets a harsher sentence

Bullshit. Yes, I know, there are cherries you can pick. Still bullshit.

basically you're conceding I'm right

LOL. You wish. Work on your reading comprehension, maybe?

If what I said about people getting harsher sentences for saying mean things about migrants than migrants engaging in rape was really "bullshit", you wouldn't have to engage in accusations of "cherry-picking" to pre-dissmiss any evidence. As if there is any reason for any sentence for saying mean things about migrants to be worse than the sentence for rape.

Comment author: Lumifer 17 May 2017 01:38:55AM 1 point [-]

I am not pre-dismissing anything. I'm actually quite familiar with both the sorry state of the freedom of speech in Europe and the propensity of immigrants to be not quite law-abiding. But if you want to make any specific claims, show data (and note that singular of 'data" is not 'anecdote').

Comment author: Good_Burning_Plastic 16 May 2017 08:23:56AM 1 point [-]

There is a significant qualitative difference

Did you mean to type "quantitative"? If you didn't, what difference?