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David_Gerard comments on Open Thread for February 3 - 10 - Less Wrong Discussion

6 Post author: NancyLebovitz 03 February 2014 03:30PM

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Comment author: David_Gerard 06 February 2014 10:18:54PM *  1 point [-]

A RationalWiki article on neoreaction, by the estimable Smerdis of Tlön. Also see his essay. I found this particularly interesting, 'cos if I'd picked anyone to sign up then Smerdis - a classical scholar who considers anything after 1700 dangerously modern - would have been a hot prospect. OTOH, he did write one of the finest obituaries I've ever seen.

Comment author: bramflakes 07 February 2014 12:31:04PM 9 points [-]

Adaptation to environments, including social environments, through natural and sexual selection is the linchpin of evolution. Remembering this means knowing why scientific racism is ridiculous. To argue that races or ethnic groups differ innately in intelligence, however defined, is exactly equal to an assertion that intelligence has proven less adaptive for some people than for others. This at minimum requires an explanation, a specifically evolutionary explanation, beyond mere statistical assertion; without that it can be assumed to be bias or noise. Since most human intelligence is in fact social intelligence -- the main thing the human mind is built for is networking in human societies -- a moment's reflection should demonstrate why this is an unlikely scenario.

(bolded part mine)

Shouldn't this part be uncontroversial? Brains are expensive.

Comment author: drethelin 08 February 2014 04:53:38AM 5 points [-]

"Beyond mere statistical assertion" So his response to "All the statistics show racial IQ differences" is simply to say "that's irrelevant unless you have a concrete theory to explain why that happened"? A moment's reflection dismissing something as an "unlikely scenario" is exactly the opposite of how science should be done.

Comment author: Douglas_Knight 07 February 2014 09:40:38PM 3 points [-]

Beware of identifications and tautologies.

If there is a single variant with large effect, like torsion dystonia, then its appearance in one group is likely due to different tradeoffs. But if IQ is driven by mutational load, populations might differ in age of reproduction and thus in mutational loads without having different tradeoffs between traits. In the long run, elevated mutational load should select for simplified design, but that could be a very long run.

Comment author: Emile 07 February 2014 12:45:09PM 2 points [-]

Yeah, that assertion also looks obviously true to me - heck, high intelligence seems to be maladaptive in current Western society!

Comment author: bramflakes 07 February 2014 01:04:23PM 8 points [-]
Comment author: [deleted] 07 February 2014 02:39:12PM 4 points [-]

I guessed you had linked to Idiocracy.

Comment author: Creutzer 07 February 2014 01:11:22PM 0 points [-]

That's not exactly about intelligence being maladaptive, though.

Comment author: bramflakes 07 February 2014 02:48:28PM 6 points [-]

Of course, but the distinction isn't useful in this context. Proxies for intelligence, like large heads, became maladaptive, so intelligence itself declined along with cranial size. It remains valid for the original argument - that the assertion that for some groups, large craniums (or other traits that augment intelligence) may have become a liability, isn't controversial.

Comment author: David_Gerard 07 February 2014 08:16:57PM *  -1 points [-]

Have certain human societies been less full of complicated humans since the Toba bottleneck? Remember that human genetic diversity is quite low compared to other species.

Comment author: bramflakes 07 February 2014 10:15:29PM *  4 points [-]

Yes, evidently the ones with the lower IQs.

Even if the Machiavellian intelligence hypothesis is correct, it isn't invulnerable to selective forces pushing in the other direction, like parasite load, lack of resources, small founder populations, island dwarfism, and so on. We've seen the Flores hominids, we know it happened.

Human intelligence won't miraculously keep increasing in any and all environments. Lack of genetic diversity doesn't factor into it.

Comment author: drethelin 08 February 2014 05:05:12AM 7 points [-]

They might have a small point in that evolution assumes that human beings, no more than any other individual animal, are not fungible: they each carry different genes that express as varying traits. The latest euphemism, "human biodiversity", is particularly galling gibberish. Biodiversity has an established meaning that you don't get to usurp. Last time I looked, humans were not facing any obvious genetic bottlenecks. There aren't really many that count as relict cultivars of tomatoes or goats. Efforts to preserve diversity in human genomes seem.... unnecessary. When they go extinct, it won't be for lack of genetic diversity; just that intelligent life is a self-limiting phenomenon.

As with much on rationalwiki, it's just dismissive rather than a logical argument or evidence. We have clear evidence of relatively recent genetic influences on human evolution in Lactose Tolerance and both Tibetan and Andean adaptations for high altitude. Not to mention HBD isn't an attempt to "preserve" the diversity but to actually acknowledge it.

Comment author: Emile 08 February 2014 09:14:03AM 0 points [-]

Not to mention HBD isn't an attempt to "preserve" the diversity but to actually acknowledge it.

That's precisely the author's point: the two usages are different enough that using the same word looks like a cheap rhetorical trick.

Comment author: drethelin 08 February 2014 06:56:32PM 2 points [-]

shrug. That's at best a nitpick. It's a minor side issue to whether what HBD proponents talk about is actually true or if true how it's relevant. Everyone is guilty of all sorts of cheap rhetorical tricks. One could even say that attacking a movement, the implications of which are potentially EXTREMELY important on a semantic point is a rhetorical trick, and not an expensive one at that.