This [senexism] is loading connotation, just differently. Better is to taboo death or temporarily define it to cover that and only that which is in dispute.
Going too abstract like in SaidAchmiz comment risks detaching from the topic. But yes, I could have tried to avoid calling it death. Could, maybe should have bridged the inferential gap to a balanced treatment somehow. But as I said. I bit the bait when asked to write a post on my position.
if aging is theoretically reversible [...] then the difference [....] is huge and qualitative for practical decision-making purposes.
I thought I provided enough links and references to point out the trade-off made by senescence. Reversing aging and/or postponing death costs entropy. Entropy that could be applied more usefully, altruistically. This opens a whole side topic (complexity limits of life and technology) which I didn't want to open.
What is your response to the following proposition: that Eliezer is an example of this, and that he is also your canonical anti-deathist, and you must reconcile these observations?
My response seems to be that my whole post seems to be read wrongly. It is a defense of deathism. Not an attack on the opposite. I have seen too many comments and posts here seeing death as something unquestionable bad. I don't see it as an unquestionable good. Reverse stupidity is not intelligence. I tried to add some facts to this topic. But obviously I failed. Not that I didn't know the risk.
I dislike 'anti-deathist'. Maybe I could call myself 'pro-life'—that's never been done before, right...?
That is not the same. And it invites politics.
I'm not clear where you would claim the optimum/optima is/are, but you should be very suspicious if your arguments prop up the status quo on lifespan, given alternative possible extremes.
The optimum depends on the trade-offs made by aging versus the group benefits. I have not seen actual calculations in the material I surveyed so I cannot make an estimate. Presumably technology can tilt the balance otherwise we probably wouldn't already see a change in average life-span. Hypothetical future technology will likely tilt this much further (and singularity being a pole I wouldn't rule out infinite life-span in general). But as the basic premise - group benefits - will hold as long as there is a population of individuals some aging seems at least likely.
Consider rot13ing HPMoR spoilers and indicating that the rot13 contains a major spoiler, or just referring to HPMoR generally without pointing to specific parts, or something.
Done. Sorry.
I thought I provided enough links and references to point out the trade-off made by senescence.
I assumed that the links/references were to studies or other evidence of points made in the post rather than making new points, and since I didn't find the points in the post convincing so value of information seemed low, didn't want to open a bunch of new tabs/risk my browser choking on PDF's, and didn't feel up to reading more articles, etc. I didn't look at them. To some extent this was probably true for other anti-deathists who read the post.
...My response
EDIT: Incorporated suggestions from comments: Moved off-topic parts into comments, improved formatting, corrected links.
Definition
The LW post Value Deathism differntiates between the illusory nature of death and the 'desirability' of death called deathism proper. This post is about the latter. Where desirability is meant in a general sense and not (only) in the sense of desirable for an individual.
I propose a different more neutral term for deathism: Senexism - from the latin adjective senex - old. I propose this because death is only the end of an aging process and by focussing on the ultimate and emotionally disturbing result one loads the topic with negative connotations. Senescence on the other hand - though unwanted - has also positive connotations of experience and humility. This also nicely splits off (or reduces applicability of) death by accident.
Outline
My defense is twofold. First I address the (emotional) pain and loss death causes and point out adaptive affects of the coping mechanisms humans have. Second I address the actual benefits senescence and death has - not for the individual but for the group. Thus the latter is an utilitarian argument for death actually.
I will provide current research results for these points. At the end I will conclude with an opinion piece on what this means for rationalists and an outlook how this applies in light of the singularity.
Fear of Death
How does (fear of) death affect you?
Terror Management Theory (TMT) posits that
Some more scientifically validated claims of TMT are (nicely presented by psychology today):
One can see this even here on LW e.g. in links from Death and also in the defenses of cryonics - which look like an afterlife meme.
Applied to this post this means that you are likely to
(here e.g. denial of death via cryonics) thus I objectively risk karma.
This is the reason I started this post with a positive confirmation. I hacked you dammit. I used this fact:
Western thinking of coping with death is confused with beliefs of coping with death. Probably due to the above effect itself.
We seem to believe that (when you read this ask yourself: Do you agree with this?)
Do you agree?
Yes?
No! These are all Myths of coping with death!
It is true that
But this doesn't mean that is must always hurt and take long.
Biases and Death
Thus from our society and being human we are bound to believe that (we should believe that) death is horrible and we should suffer from encountering it.
For an efficiently working brain (that is set on the track of avoiding death at all cost) it is not hard to spot patterns that support the view that death is only bad.
This means that among all topics you are most likely to fall prey to one bias or other with respect to death memes e.g.
There are probably lots others. Take finding them as a homework (or chance for a comment).
Coping with Death Adaptively
But death and loss may not be as devasting as you make it.
In particular according to Nordanger (2007)
and Zautra 2010
I also understand that indigenous tribes which are more acutely affected by harm and death do not suffer the same way from it we do.
Can it be that anti-deathism is a foul meme we acquired when technology 'robbed' us of 'natural' experience of death?
With this I close the coping section and move on to the actual benefits.
Evolution of Aging
The Wikipedia article on aging states that
But gives some hints as to its origin: New results on the old disposable soma theory and new group selection theories of aging.
Following up on that you can find that it is likely adaptive even if there is not yet consensus about this.
For example after Joshua Mitteldorf has
he goes on to that
and find evidence that
Note that this biological argument also applies to memes.
You can have 'infectious diseases' of the mind which in a technological society may dominate the biological effects.
Applying this principle to science might mean that without death scienctific progress might go slower - something we have been already told:
(Max Planck in his Autobiography)
Risk Aversion and Mediocrity
This section gives my personal opinion on risk aversion in our society.
Technological progress in the last century has worked hard on satisfying basic needs. What remains are complex social needs and existential fears.
Fear of death has led to what I believe overly protecting children (and adults). For fear of injury or abuse children often no longer have the chance to
A comparable list could also be given for adults. Please feel free to comment on this.
All of this protection surely leads to some (minor?) reduction of health risks. But all of this also leads to a reduction of efficiency. Some of this protection even pose other (longer term) health risks which are less salient (yet?). This is a promotion of mediocrity. Sometimes I think our society could benefit from a bit more harm. Wouldn't we value life more and make more out of it?
Even if you do not agree with me on this one, maybe you do on the following.
Risk Aversion and Death
Sometimes it is necessary to Make an Extraordinary Effort or even to Shut up and do the impossible! This implies setting aside some of your mental barriers. Barriers that protect you from danger, exhaustion and possibly death (not necessarily immediate but possibly speeding up senescence).
Some say that there are areas where this may be necessary:
http://leepers.us/mtvoid/2003/VOID0207.htm (section Acceptable risk)
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31452.30
This may also apply for other human endeavors.
Death and Transhumanism
Now that we have reached the edge of human progress I want to drive my argument a bit beyond its applicability. The evolutionary biological benefit of senescence and death may not apply once humans can fully engineer biology. What if we "if we knew more, thought faster, were more the people we wished we were"? Does this stop the argument? Any group-benefit argument continues to apply if a population of distinct minds remains. If the minds incorporate mutual experience than the minds either converge to multiple identical minds or the minds maintain a difference in which case the group benefit argument may continue to hold.
Independent of whether you want to avoid becoming identical to all other minds - being a single mind makes it a single point of failure. Death - of a certain kind - may be necessary even for parts of a super intelligence.
References
Mentioned above and some more:
For background you might consult the Baseline of my opinion on LW topics.
Summary
For the TLDR crowd:
Humans have powerful mental adaptations to cope with death/loss (they often actually learn from it and get out of it stronger).
Death/senescence/loss is adaptive for the group providing real benefits an utilitarian should see and build on.