You're looking at Less Wrong's discussion board. This includes all posts, including those that haven't been promoted to the front page yet. For more information, see About Less Wrong.
Comment author:Alexandros
26 February 2014 09:06:31AM
16 points
[-]
If one is able to improve how people are matched, it would bring about a huge amount of utility for the entire world.
People would be happier, they would be more productive, there would be less of the divorce-related waste. Being in a happy couple also means you are less distracted by conflict in the house, which leads to people better able to develop themselves and achieve their personal goals. You can keep adding to the direct benefits of being in a good pairing versus a bad pairing.
But it doesn't stop there. If we accept that better matched parents raise their children better, then you are looking at a huge improvement in the psychological health of the next generation of humans. And well-raised humans are more likely to match better with each other...
Under this light, it strikes me as vastly suboptimal that people today will get married to the best option available in their immediate environment when they reach the right age.
The cutting-edge online dating sites base their suggestions on a very limited list of questions. But each of us outputs huge amounts of data, many of them available through APIs on the web. Favourite books, movies, sleep patterns, browsing history, work history, health data, and so much more. We should be using that data to form good hypotheses on how to better match people. I'm actually shocked at the underinvestment in this area as a legitimate altruistic cause.
If an altruistic group of numbers-inclined people was to start working together to improve the world in a non-existential risk reducing kind of way, it strikes me that a dating site may be a fantastic thing to try. On the off-chance it actually produces real results, Applied Rationality will also have a great story of how it improved the world. And, you know, it might even make money.
Comment author:Viliam_Bur
26 February 2014 10:13:35AM
*
16 points
[-]
There seem to be perverse incentives in the dating industry. Most obviously: if you successfully create a forever-happy couple, you have lost your customers; but if you make people date many promissingly-looking-yet-disappointing partners, they will keep returning to your site.
Actualy, maybe your customers are completely hypocritical about their goals: maybe "finding a true love" is their official goal, but what they really want is plausible deniability for fucking dozens of attractive strangers while pretending to search for the perfect soulmate. You could create a website which displays the best one or two matches, instead of hundreds of recommendations, and despite having higher success rate for people who try it, most people will probably be unimpressed and give you some bullshit excuses if you ask them.
Also, if people are delusional about their "sexual market value", you probably won't make money by trying to fix their delusions. They will be offended by the types of "ordinary" people you offer them as their best matches, when the competing website offers them Prince Charming (whose real goal is to maximize his number of one night stands) or Princess Charming (who really is a prostitute using the website to find potential clients). They will look at the photos and profiles from your website, and from the competing website, and then decide your website isn't even worth trying. They may also post an offended blog review, and you bet it will be popular on social networks.
So you probably would need to do this as a non-profit philantropic activity.
EDIT: I have an idea about how to remove the perverse incentives, but it requires a lot of trust in users. Make them pay if they have a happy relationship. For example if the website finds you a date, set a regular payment of $5 each month for the next 10 years; if the relationship breaks, cancel the payment. The value of a good relationship is higher than $5 a month, but the total payment of $600 could be enough for the website.
Comment author:Alexandros
26 February 2014 11:25:05AM
*
8 points
[-]
I wouldn't jump to malice so fast when incompetence suffices as an explanation. Nobody has actually done the proper research. The current sites have found a local maxima and are happy to extract value there. Google got huge by getting people off the site fast when everyone else was building portals.
You will of course get lots of delusionals, and lots of people damaged enough that they are unmatchable anyway. You can't help everybody. But also the point is to improve the result they would otherwise have had. Delusional people do end up finding a match in general, so you just have to improve that to have a win. Perhaps you can fix the incentive by getting paid for the duration of the resulting relationship. (and that has issues by itself, but that's a long conversation)
I don't think the philanthropic angle will help, though having altruistic investors who aren't looking for immediate maximisation of investment is probably a must, as a lot of this is pure research.
Comment author:ChristianKl
26 February 2014 04:07:23PM
6 points
[-]
You could create a website which displays the best one or two matches, instead of hundreds of recommendations, and despite having higher success rate for people who try it, most people will probably be unimpressed and give you some bullshit excuses if you ask them.
I think that's the business model of eharmony and they seem to be doing well.
Comment author:Viliam_Bur
26 February 2014 04:01:00PM
*
5 points
[-]
That sounds a lot like really wanting a soulmate and an open relationship.
That's a nice thing to have; I am not judging anyone. Just thinking how that would influence the dating website algorithm, marketing, and the utility this whole project would create.
If some people say they want X but they actually want Y... however other people say they want X and they mean it... and the algorithm matches them together because the other characteristics match, at the end they may be still unsatisfied (if one of these groups is a small minority, they will be disappointed repeatedly). This could possibly be fixed by an algorithm smart enough that it could somehow detect which option it is, and only match people who want the same thing (whichever of X or Y it is).
If there are many people who say they want X but really want Y, how will you advertise the website? Probably by playing along and describing your website mostly as a site for X, but providing obvious hints that Y is also possible and frequent there. Alternatively, by describing your website as a site for X, but writing "independent" blog articles and comments describing how well it actually works for Y. (What is the chance that this actually is what dating sites are already doing, and the only complaining people are the nerds who don't understand the real rules?)
Maybe there is a market in explicitly supporting open relationships. (Especially if you start in the Bay Area.) By removing some hypocrisy, the matching could be made more efficient -- you could ask questions which you otherwise couldn't, e.g. "how many % of your time would you prefer to spend with this partner?".
Comment author:Emily
26 February 2014 02:22:05PM
13 points
[-]
I wonder to what extent the problems you describe (divorces, conflict, etc) are caused mainly by poor matching of the people having the problems, and to what extent they are caused by the people having poor relationship (or other) skills, relatively regardless of how well matched they are with their partner? For example, it could be that someone is only a little bit less likely to have dramatic arguments with their "ideal match" than with a random partner -- they just happen to be an argumentative person or haven't figured out better ways of resolving disagreements.
Comment author:Eugine_Nier
28 February 2014 02:12:20AM
5 points
[-]
I wonder to what extent the problems you describe (divorces, conflict, etc) are caused mainly by poor matching of the people having the problems, and to what extent they are caused by the people having poor relationship (or other) skills, relatively regardless of how well matched they are with their partner?
Well, the success of arranged marriages in cultures that practice them suggests the "right match" isn't that important.
Comment author:Vaniver
28 February 2014 07:15:05PM
*
7 points
[-]
What makes you think these marriages are successful? Low divorce rates are not good evidence in places where divorce is often impractical.
Three main points in favor of arranged marriages that I'm aware of:
The marriages are generally arranged by older women, who are likely better at finding a long-term match than young people. (Consider this the equivalent of dating people based on okCupid match rating, say, instead of hotornot rating.)
The expectations people have from marriage are much more open and agreed upon; like Prismattic points out, they may have a marriage that a Westerner would want to get a divorce in, but be satisfied. It seems to me that this is because of increased realism in expectations (i.e. the Westerner thinks the divorce will be more helpful than it actually will, or is overrating divorce compared to other options), but this is hard to be quantitative about.
To elaborate on the expectations, in arranged marriages it is clear that a healthy relationship is something you have to build and actively maintain, whereas in love marriages sometimes people have the impression that the healthy relationship appears and sustains itself by magic- and so when they put no work into maintaining it, and it falls apart, they claim that the magic is gone rather than that they never changed the oil.
I also think most modern arranged marriages involve some choice on the part of the participants- "meet these four people, tell us if you can't stand any of them" instead of "you will marry this one person."
Comment author:adbge
28 February 2014 09:06:57PM
*
6 points
[-]
Forty-five individuals (22 couples and 1 widowed person) living in arranged marriages in India completed questionnaires measuring marital satisfaction and wellness. The data were compared with existing data on individuals in the United States living in marriages of choice. Differences were found in importance of marital characteristics, but no differences in satisfaction were found. Differences were also found in 9 of 19 wellness scales between the 2 groups. Implications for further research are considered.
Results from the analyses revealed that arranged marrieds were significantly higher in marital satisfaction than were the love marrieds or companionate marrieds.
Unexpectedly, no differences were found between participants in arranged and love-based marriages; high ratings of love, satisfaction, and commitment were observed in both marriage types. The overall affective experiences of partners in arranged and love marriages appear to be similar, at least among Indian adults living in contemporary U.S. society.
Multiple regression analyses indicate that wives in Chengdu love matches are more satisfied with their marital relationships than their counterparts in arranged marriages, regardless of the length of the marriage, and that this difference cannot be attributed to the influence of other background factors that differentiate these two types of women.
Comment author:Prismattic
28 February 2014 02:40:39AM
2 points
[-]
I'm not sure this is correct. That is to say, the empirical point that divorce is much less common in arranged marriage cultures is obviously true. But
a) I think there is some correlation between prevalence arranged marriage and stigma associated with divorce, meaning that not getting divorced does not necessarily equal happy marriage.
b) The bar for success in 20th-21st century western marriages is set really high. It's not just an economic arrangement; people want a best friend and a passionate lover and maybe several other things rolled into one. When people in traditional cultures say that their marriages are "happy," they may well mean something much less than what affluent westerners would consider satisfactory.
Comment author:Alexandros
26 February 2014 11:03:29PM
1 point
[-]
My instinct on this is driven by having been in bad and good relationships, and reflecting on myself in those situations. It ain't much, but it's what I've got to work with. Yes, some people are unmatchable, or shouldn't be matched. But somewhere between "is in high demand and has good judgement, can easily find great matches" and "is unmatchable and should be kept away from others", there's a lot of people that can be matched better. Or that's the hypothesis.
Comment author:Emily
27 February 2014 08:48:06AM
1 point
[-]
Seems reasonable, although I'd still wonder just how much difference improving the match would make even for the majority of middle-ground people. It sounded in the grandparent post (first and fourth paragraphs particularly) that you were treating the notion that it would be "a lot" as a premise rather than a hypothesis.
Comment author:Alexandros
27 February 2014 08:54:49AM
1 point
[-]
Well, it's more than a hypothesis, it's a goal. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't, but if it does, it's pretty high impact. (though not existential-risk avoidance high, in and of itself).
Finding a good match has made a big subjective difference for me, and there's a case it's made a big objective difference (but then again, I'd say that) and I had to move countries to find that person.
Yeah, maybe the original phrasing is too strong (blame the entrepreneur in pitch mode) but the 6th paragraph does say that it's an off-chance it can be made to work, though both a high improvement potential and a high difficulty in materialising it are not mutually exclusive.
Comment author:Coscott
26 February 2014 07:26:14PM
*
4 points
[-]
OK Cupid has a horrible match percent algorithm. Basically someone who has a check list of things that their match cannot be will answer lots of questions as "this matters a lot to me" and "any of these options are acceptable except for this one extreme one that nobody will click anyway." The stupid algorithm will inflate this person's match percent with everyone.
So, if you look at people with high compatibility with you, that says more about their question answering style, than how much you have in common.
This is why the algorithm is horrible in theory. In practice my one example is that I am getting married in a month to someone I met on OKcupid with 99% compatibility.
Comment author:Viliam_Bur
27 February 2014 08:47:12AM
*
2 points
[-]
A good website design could change the answering style. Imagine a site where you don't fill out all the answers at once. Instead it just displays one question at a time, and you can either answer it or click "not now". The algorithm would prioritize the questions it asks you dynamically, using the already existing data about you and your potential matches -- it would ask you the question which it expects to provide most bits of information.
Also, it would use the math properly. The compatiblity would not be calculated as number of questions answered, but number of bits these answers provide. A match for "likes cats" provides more bits than "is not a serial killer".
Comment author:Coscott
26 February 2014 08:40:02PM
5 points
[-]
Here is one improvement to OKcupid, which we might even be able to implement as a third party:
OKcupid has bad match algorithms, but it can still be useful as searchable classified adds. However, when you find a legitimate match, you need to have a way to signal to the other person that you believe the match could work.
Most messages on OKcupid are from men to women, so women already have a way to do this: send a message, however men do not.
Men spam messages, by glancing over profiles, and sending cookie cutter messages that mention something in the profile. Women are used to this spam, and may reject legitimate interest, because they do not have a good enough spam filter.
Our service would be to provide an I am not spamming commitment. A flag that can be put in a message which signals "This is the only flagged message I have sent this week"
It would be a link, you put in your message, which sends you to a site that basically says. Yes, Bob(profile link) has only sent this flag to Alice(profile link) in the week of 2/20/14-2/26/14, with an explanation of how this works.
Do you think that would be a useful service to implement? Do you think people would actually use it, and receive it well?
Comment author:Lumifer
26 February 2014 09:14:07PM
*
1 point
[-]
Our service would be to provide an I am not spamming commitment. A flag that can be put in a message which signals "This is the only flagged message I have sent this week"
Where will your credibility come from?
Alice receives a message from Bob. It says "You're amazing, we're nothing but mammals, let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel", and it also says "I, Mallory, hereby certify that Bob only talked about mammals once this week -- to you".
Why should Alice believe you?
Things like that are technically possible (e.g. cryptographic proofs-of-work) but Alice is unlikely to verify your proofs herself and why should she trust Mallory, anyway?
Comment author:Coscott
26 February 2014 09:22:22AM
5 points
[-]
The problem with dating sites (like social network sites or internet messengers) is that the utility you can gain from it is VERY related to how many other people are actually using it. This means that there is a natural drift towards a monopoly. Nobody wants to join a dating site that only has 1000 people. If you do not have a really good reason to think that your dating site idea will get off the ground, it probably wont.
One way you could possibly get past this is to match people up who do not sign up or even know about this service.
For example, you could create bots that browse okcupid, for answers to questions, ignore okcupid's stupid algorithms in favor of our own much better ones, and then send two people a message that describes how our service works and introduces them to each other.
Is this legal? If so, I wonder if okcupid would take stop it anyway.
Comment author:Lumifer
26 February 2014 04:34:24PM
*
6 points
[-]
and then send two people a message that describes how our service works and introduces them to each other.
Awesome -- that will fit right in between "I'm a Nigerian customs official with a suitcase of cash" emails and "Enlarge your manhood with our all-natural pills" ones.
P.S. Actually it's even better! Imagine that you're a girl and you receive an email which basically says "We stalked you for a while and we think you should go shack up with that guy". Genius!
Comment author:Alexandros
26 February 2014 09:51:58AM
*
7 points
[-]
The chicken/egg issue is real with any dating site, yet dating sites do manage to start. Usually you work around this by focusing on a certain group/location, dominating that, and spreading out.
Off the cuff, the bay strikes me as a potentially great area to start for something like this.
Comment author:EGarrett
01 March 2014 06:43:15PM
0 points
[-]
How can there be a monopoly if people can use more than one dating site?
Unless OkCupid bans you from putting your profile up on other sites, you can just as easily put a profile on another site with less people, if the site seems promising.
Comment author:EGarrett
02 March 2014 12:46:23AM
0 points
[-]
Hi Eugine,
I don't mean to be nitpicking, but a monopoly is a very specific thing. It's quite different than it just being inconvenient to switch to a competitor. In very many cases in normal market competition, it's inconvenient to switch to competitors (buying a new car or house, changing your insurance, and so on), but that doesn't effect the quality of the product. Similarly, for a monopoly to effect the quality of OKCupid's service, it would have to be a very specific situation, and different than what currently exists, which seems to be quite normal market functioning.
If an altruistic group of numbers-inclined people was to start working together to improve the world in a non-existential risk reducing kind of way, it strikes me that a dating site may be a fantastic thing to try.
Why altruistic? If it's worth anything, it's worth money. If it won't even pay its creators for the time they'll put in to create it, where's the value?
I've had ideas sort of like this at the back of my mind since seeing Paul Graham pointing out how broken online dating is in one of his essays. (Not so much analyzing all of someone's existing data, but analyzing IM transcripts to match people with IM buddies they'd be likely to make good friends with is a thing I considered doing.) Haven't gotten too far with any of them yet, but I'm glad you reminded me, since I was planning on playing with some of my own data soon just to see what I find.
Do you think that not having dated much would be much of a comparative disadvantage in working on this problem? That's one of the reasons I hesitate to make it my main project.
A possibly-related problem - why does every site I see that says it is for matching strangers who might like to be friends get full of people looking for a date? (Small sample size, but I've never seen one that didn't give me the sense that the vast majority of the members were looking for romance or a one night stand or something.)
Comment author:[deleted]
01 March 2014 10:37:37AM
3 points
[-]
A possibly-related problem - why does every site I see that says it is for matching strangers who might like to be friends get full of people looking for a date?
So that people can look for dates without breaking plausible deniability.
So that people can look for dates without breaking plausible deniability.
I think it's the web site, rather than its clients, that needs the plausible deniability. It cannot seem to be in the business of selling sex, so it has to have a wider focus.
Comment author:Salemicus
27 February 2014 08:00:21PM
1 point
[-]
It strikes me that it is much more plausible to argue that the dating market suffers from market failure through information asymmetry, market power and high search costs than to argue the same about economic activity. Yet although people search high and low to find (often non-existent) market failures to justify economic interventions, interventions in the dating market are greeted with near-uniform hostlility. I predict that, outside of LessWrong, your proposal will generate a high "Ick" factor as a taboo violation. "Rationality-based online dating will set you up with scientifically-chosen dates..." this is likely to be an anti-selling point to most users.
Comment author:Alexandros
28 February 2014 07:10:51AM
2 points
[-]
Obviously you'd take a different angle with the marketing.
Off the cuff, I'd pitch it as a hands-off dating site. You just install a persistent app on your phone that pushes a notification when it finds a good match. No website to navigate, no profile to fill, no message queue to manage.
Perhaps market it to busy professionals. Finance professionals may be a good target to start marketing to. (busy, high-status, analytical)
There would need to be some way to deal with the privacy issues though.
Comment author:Brillyant
28 February 2014 04:34:13AM
15 points
[-]
I've noticed I don't read 'Main' posts anymore.
When I come to LW, I click to the Discussion almost instinctively. I'd estimate it has been four weeks since I've looked at Main. I sometimes read new Slate Star Codex posts (super good stuff, if you are unfamiliar) from LW's sidebar. I sometimes notice interesting-sounding 'Recent Comments' and click on them.
My initial thought is that I don't feel compelled to read Main posts because they are the LW-approved ideas, and I'm not super interested in listening to a bunch of people agreeing with another. Maybe that is a caricature, not sure.
Anyone else Discussion-centric in their LW use?
Also, the Meetup stuff is annoying noise. I'm very sympathetic if placing it among posts helps to drive attendance. By all means, continue if it helps your causes. But it feels spammy to me.
Comment author:blacktrance
28 February 2014 04:04:48PM
*
4 points
[-]
I'm more likely to find discussion topics and comments in my areas of interest, while Main seems to be mostly about AI, math, health, and productivity, none of which are particularly interesting for me.
Comment author:Wei_Dai
25 February 2014 09:56:49AM
11 points
[-]
How do you pick a career if your goal is to maximize your income (technically, maximize the expected value of some function of your income)? The sort of standard answer is "comparative advantage", but it's unclear to me how to apply that concept in practice. For example how much demand there is for each kind of job is obviously very important, but how do you take that into consideration, exactly? I've been thinking about this and came up with the following. I'd be interested in any improvements or alternative ideas.
For each career under consideration, estimate your potential income ranking or percentile within that career if you went into it (as a probability distribution).
For each career, estimate its income distribution (how much will the top earner make, how much will the second highest earner make, etc.).
From 1 and 2, obtain a probability distribution of your income within each career.
Comment author:[deleted]
27 February 2014 05:58:17AM
6 points
[-]
"Career" is an unnatural bucket. You don't pick a career. You choose between concrete actions that lead to other actions. Imagine picking a path through a tree. This model can encompass the notion of a career as a set of similar paths. Your procedure is a good way to estimate the value of these paths, but doesn't reflect the tree-like structure of actual decisions. In other words, options are important under uncertainty, and the model you've listed doesn't seem to reflect this.
For example, I'm not choosing between (General Infantry) and (Mathematician). I'm choosing between (Enlist in the Military) and (Go to College). Even if the terminal state (General Infantry) had the same expected value as (Mathematician), going to college should more valuable because you will have many options besides (Mathematician) should your initial estimate prove wrong, while enlisting leads to much lower branching factor.
How should you weigh the value of having options? I have no clue.
Your goal is likely not to maximize your income. For one, you have to take cost of living into account - a $60k/yr job where you spend $10k/yr on housing is better than a $80k/yr (EDIT:$70k/yr, math was off) job where you spend $25k/yr on housing.
For another, the time and stress of the career field has a very big impact on quality-of-life. If you work sixty hour weeks, in order to get to the same kind of place as a forty hour week worker you have to spend money to free up twenty hours per week in high-quality time. That's a lot of money in cleaners, virtual personal assistants, etc.
As far as "how do I use the concept of comparative advantage to my advantage", here's how I'd do it:
Make a list of skills and preferences. It need not be exhaustive - in fact, I'd go for the first few things you can think of. The more obvious of a difference from the typical person, the more likely it is to be your comparative advantage. For instance, suppose you like being alone, do not get bored easily by monotonous work, and do not have any particular attachment to any one place.
Look at career options and ask yourself if that is something that fits your skills and preferences. Over-the-road trucking is a lot more attractive to people who can stand boredom and isolation, and don't feel a need to settle down in one place. Conversely, it's less attractive to people who are the opposite way, and so is likely to command a higher wage.
Now that you have a shorter list of things you're likely to face less competition for or be better at, use any sort of evaluation to pick among the narrower field.
Comment author:solipsist
26 February 2014 02:55:04AM
*
6 points
[-]
A $60k/yr job where you spend $10k/yr on housing is better than a $80k/yr job where you spend $25k/yr on housing.
You should consider option values, especially early in your career. It's easier to move from high paying job in Manhattan to a lower paying job in Kansas City than to do the reverse.
Update the choice by replacing income with the total expected value from job income, social networking, and career options available to you, and the point stands.
Comment author:James_Miller
25 February 2014 03:25:12PM
9 points
[-]
If you have a high IQ and are good at math go into finance. If you have a high IQ, strong social skills but are bad at math go into law. If you have a high IQ, a good memory but weak social and math skills become a medical doctor. If you have a low IQ but are attractive marry someone rich. If you have a very low IQ get on government benefits for some disability and work at an under-the-table job.
Comment author:gjm
26 February 2014 12:25:49AM
3 points
[-]
Medical doctors are paid well in many places other than the US, though not as well as in the US. (For that matter, most other well-paid jobs are better paid in the US than anywhere else. Software development, law, senior management, etc.)
Also, though of course this was no part of the original question, medicine offers more confidence than most careers that your work is actually making the world a better place. (Which may not actually be the right question to ask, of course -- what matters is arguably the marginal effect, and if you're well paid and care enough about people in poor countries you may well be able to do more good by charitable donations than you ever could directly by your work. But it's a thing many people care about.)
Comment author:Eugine_Nier
28 February 2014 01:46:54AM
2 points
[-]
If you have a high IQ, strong social skills but are bad at math go into law.
Is this still true? Recently there have been reports about an oversupply of lawyers and scandals involving law schools fudging the statistics on the salaries of their graduates.
Comment author:Izeinwinter
01 March 2014 04:23:22PM
*
1 point
[-]
US law is a spectacularly bad choice at the moment. There is far to many law schools, and as a consequence, too many law graduates, the degree costs a fortune and employment prospects are outright bad. Do not do this.
Finance is an implicit bet that wallstreet will not get struck down by the wrath of the electorate just as you finish your education.
Honestly? If riches really is what you want, go into business for yourself. A startup, or at the low end just being a self-employed contractor has good returns and this is not likely to change. Programming, the trades, a good set of languages and an import-export business..
Comment author:Eugine_Nier
01 March 2014 09:57:38PM
0 points
[-]
Well, as I understand it part of the issue is that a lot of the grunt work that used to require lots of lawyers to do, e.g., looking through piles of documents for relevant sections, can now be automated.
Does anyone know if finance requires strong math and social skills? I assumed it did - social skills for creating connections, and math skills for actually doing to job.
And if you do have poor social skills, then practice! Social skills are really important. I'm still working on this.
This is some guesswork, but some other possible combinations:
Strong social skills, above average IQ - management?
Above average IQ, good math skills - accounting?
Rich parents, family business - take over said business eventually.
Middle class parents, fair amount of property, good location - rent.
Rich parents, strong social skills - network through their connections.
The vast majority of people who play sports have fun and don't receive a dime for it. A majority of people who get something of monetary value out of playing sports get a college degree and nothing else.
I don't have good numbers, but it's likely less dangerous than you think it is. The vast majority of what an infantryman does falls into two categories - training, and waiting. And that's a boots on ground, rifle in hand category - there's a bunch of rear-echelon ratings as well.
I'm guessing that it's likely within an order of magnitude of danger as commuting to work. Likely safer than delivering pizzas. There's probably a lot of variance between specific job descriptions - a drone operator based in the continental US is going to have a lot less occupational risk than the guy doing explosive ordnance disposal.
From what I've read, a couple of the issues for drone pilots is that they've been killing people who they've been watching for a while, and that they feel personal responsibility if they fail to protect American soldiers.
In the year 1940, working as an enlisted member of the army supply chain was probably safer than not being in the army whatsoever - regular Joes got drafted.
Besides which, the geographical situation of the US means that a symmetrical war is largely going to be an air/sea sort of deal. Canada's effectively part of the US in economic and mutual-defense terms, and Mexico isn't much help either. Mexico doesn't have the geographical and industrial resources to go toe-to-toe with the US on their own, the border is a bunch of hostile desert, and getting supplies into Mexico past the US navy and air force is problematic.
Another bonus of enlisting: basic skills will be drilled into so thoroughly they will be fully into your System I allowing you extra executive function (thereby causing you to punch above your weight in terms of intelligence). Although, there is some ethical risk involved.
Another bonus of enlisting: basic skills will be drilled into so thoroughly they will be fully into your System I allowing you extra executive function.
Comment author:[deleted]
01 March 2014 10:52:43AM
1 point
[+]
(0
children)
Comment author:[deleted]
01 March 2014 10:52:43AM
1 point
[-]
If you have a low IQ but are attractive marry someone rich.
I'm not sure I would count that as “your income”, though in jurisdictions with easy divorces and large alimony it might be as good for all practical purposes.
Comment author:Kaj_Sotala
27 February 2014 12:56:03PM
7 points
[-]
So I have the typical of introvert/nerd problem of being shy about meeting people one-on-one, because I'm afraid of not being able to come up with anything to say and lots of awkwardness resulting. (Might have something to do with why I've typically tended to date talkative people...)
Now I'm pretty sure that there must exist some excellent book or guide or blog post series or whatever that's aimed at teaching people how to actually be a good conversationalist. I just haven't found it. Recommendations?
Comment author:pcm
02 March 2014 08:27:13PM
5 points
[-]
Offline practice: make a habit of writing down good questions you could have asked in a conversation you recently had. Reward yourself for thinking of questions, regardless of how slow you are at generating them. (H/T Dan of Charisma Tips, which has other good tips scattered around that blog).
Comment author:EGarrett
26 February 2014 02:44:19PM
*
7 points
[-]
I noticed recently that one of the mental processes that gets in the way of my proper thinking is an urge to instantly answer a question then spend the rest of my time trying to justify that knee-jerk answer.
For example, I saw a post recently asking whether chess or poker was more popular worldwide. For some reason I wanted to say "obviously x is more popular," but I realized that I don't actually know. And if I avoid that urge to answer the question instantly, it's much easier for me to keep my ego out of issues and to investigate things properly...including making it easier for me recognize things that I don't know and acknowledge that I don't know them.
Is there a formal name for this type of bias or behavior pattern? It would let me search up some Sequence posts or articles to read.
Comment author:lukeprog
25 February 2014 09:26:31PM
*
7 points
[-]
In "The Fall and Rise of Formal Methods", Peter Amey gives a pretty good description of how I expect things to play out w.r.t. Friendly AI research:
Good ideas sometimes come before their time. They may be too novel for their merit to be recognised. They may be seen to threaten some party’s self interest. They may be seen as simply too hard to adopt. These premature good ideas are often swept into corners and, the world, breathing a sigh of relief, gets on with whatever it was up to before they came along. Fortunately not all good ideas wither. Some are kept alive by enthusiasts, who seize every opportunity to show that they really are good ideas. In some cases the world eventually catches up and the original premature good idea, honed by its period of isolation, bursts forth as the new normality (sometimes with its original critics claiming it was all their idea in the first place!).
Formal methods (and I’ll outline in more detail what I mean by ‘formal methods’ shortly) are a classic example of early oppression followed by later resurgence. They arrived on the scene at a time when developers were preoccupied with trying to squeeze complex functionality into hardware with too little memory and too slow processors.
...[But now] formal methods... are on the rise. And why not? What is the alternative? If we don’t use them, then our tool box contains just one spanner labelled ‘test’. We know that for anything that justifies the label ‘critical’, testing will never be enough...
Comment author:Coscott
25 February 2014 05:28:09AM
7 points
[-]
Here is another logic puzzle. I did not write this one, but I really like it.
Imagine you have a circular cake, that is frosted on the top. You cut a d degree slice out of it, and then put it back, but rotated so that it is upside down. Now, d degrees of the cake have frosting on the bottom, while 360 minus d degrees have frosting on the top. Rotate the cake d degrees, take the next slice, and put it upside down. Now, assuming the d is less than 180, 2d degrees of the cake will have frosting on the bottom.
If d is 60 degrees, then after you repeat this procedure, flipping a single slice and rotating 6 times, all the frosting will be on the bottom. If you repeat the procedure 12 times, all of the frosting will be back on the top of the cake.
For what values of d does the cake eventually get back to having all the frosting on the top?
Introduction
I suspected that the type of stuff that gets posted in Rationality Quotes reinforces the mistaken way of throwing about the word rational. To test this, I set out to look at the first twenty rationality quotes in the most recent RQ thread. In the end I only looked at the first ten because it was taking more time and energy than would permit me to continue past that. (I'd only seen one of them before, namely the one that prompted me to make this comment.)
A look at the quotes
In our large, anonymous society, it's easy to forget moral and reputational pressures and concentrate on legal pressure and security systems. This is a mistake; even though our informal social pressures fade into the background, they're still responsible for most of the cooperation in society.
There might be an intended, implicit lesson here that would systematically improve thinking, but without more concrete examples and elaboration (I'm not sure what the exact mistake being pointed to is), we're left guessing what it might be. In cases like this where it's not clear, it's best to point out explicitly what the general habit of thought (cognitive algorithm) is that should be corrected, and how one should correct it, rather than to point in the vague direction of something highly specific going wrong.
As the world becomes more addictive, the two senses in which one can live a normal life will be driven ever further apart. One sense of "normal" is statistically normal: what everyone else does. The other is the sense we mean when we talk about the normal operating range of a piece of machinery: what works best.
These two senses are already quite far apart. Already someone trying to live well would seem eccentrically abstemious in most of the US. That phenomenon is only going to become more pronounced. You can probably take it as a rule of thumb from now on that if people don't think you're weird, you're living badly.
Without context, I'm struggling to understand the meaning of this quote, too. The Paul Graham article it appears in, after a quick skim, does not appear to be teaching a general lesson about how to think; rather it appears to be making a specific observation. I don't feel like I've learned about a bad cognitive habit I had by reading this, or been taught a new useful way to think.
If you're expecting the world to be fair with you because you are fair, you are fooling yourself. That's like expecting a lion not to eat you because you didn't eat him.
Although this again seems like it's vague enough that the range of possible interpretations is fairly broad, I feel like this is interpretable into useful advice. It doesn't make a clear point about habits of thought, though, and I had to consciously try to make up a plausible general lesson for it (just world fallacy), that I probably wouldn't have been able to think up if I didn't already know that general lesson.
He says we could learn a lot from primitive tribes. But they could learn a lot more from us!
I understand and like this quote. It feels like this quote is an antidote to a specific type of thought (patronising signalling of reverence for the wisdom of primitive tribes), and maybe more generally serves as an encouragement to revisit some of our cultural relativism/self-flagellation. But probably not very generalisable. (I note with amusement how unconvincing I find the cognitive process that generated this quote.)
Procrastination is the thief of compound interest.
There can be value to creating witty mottos for our endeavours (e.g. battling akrasia). But such battles aside, this does not feel like it's offering much insight into cognitive processes.
Allow me to express now, once and for all, my deep respect for the work of the experimenter and for his fight to wring significant facts from an inflexible Nature, who says so distinctly "No" and so indistinctly "Yes" to our theories.
If I'm interpreting this correctly, then this can be taken as a quote about the difficulty of locating strong hypotheses. Not particularly epiphanic by Less Wrong standards, but it is clearer than some of the previous examples and does indeed allude to a general protocol.
[A]lmost no innovative programs work, in the sense of reliably demonstrating benefits in excess of costs in replicated RCTs [randomized controlled trials]. Only about 10 percent of new social programs in fields like education, criminology and social welfare demonstrate statistically significant benefits in RCTs. When presented with an intelligent-sounding program endorsed by experts in the topic, our rational Bayesian prior ought to be “It is very likely that this program would fail to demonstrate improvement versus current practice if I tested it.”
In other words, discovering program improvements that really work is extremely hard. We labor in the dark -- scratching and clawing for tiny scraps of causal insight.
Pretty good. General lesson: Without causal insight, we should be suspicious when a string of Promising Solutions fails. Applicable to solutions to problems in one's personal life. Observing an an analogue in tackling mathematical or philosophical problems, this suggests a general attitude to problem-solving of being suspicious of guessing solutions instead of striving for insight.
The use with children of experimental [educational] methods, that is, methods that have not been finally assessed and found effective, might seem difficult to justify. Yet the traditional methods we use in the classroom every day have exactly this characteristic--they are highly experimental in that we know very little about their educational efficacy in comparison with alternative methods. There is widespread cynicism among students and even among practiced teachers about the effectiveness of lecturing or repetitive drill (which we would distinguish from carefully designed practice), yet these methods are in widespread use. Equally troublesome, new "theories" of education are introduced into schools every day (without labeling them as experiments) on the basis of their philosophical or common-sense plausibility but without genuine empirical support. We should make a larger place for responsible experimentation that draws on the available knowledge--it deserves at least as large a place as we now provide for faddish, unsystematic and unassessed informal "experiments" or educational "reforms."
Good. General lesson: Apply reversal tests to complaints against novel approaches, to combat status quo bias.
The general principle of antifragility, it is much better to do things you cannot explain than explain things you cannot do.
Dual of quote before previous. At first I thought I understood this immediately. Then I noticed I was confused and had to remind myself what Taleb's antifragility concept actually is. I feel like it's something to do with doing that which works, regardless of whether we have a good understanding of why it works. I could guess at but am not sure of what the 'explain things you cannot do' part means.
"He keeps saying, you can run, but you can't hide. Since when do we take advice from this guy?"
You got a really good point there, Rick. I mean, if the truth was that we could hide, it's not like he would just give us that information.
Trope deconstruction making a nod to likelihood ratios. Could be taken as a general reminder to be alert to likelihood ratios and incentives to lie. Cool.
Conclusion
Out of ten quotes, I would identify two as reinforcing general but basic principles of thought (hypothesis location, likelihood ratios), another that is useful and general (skepticism of Promising Solutions), one which is insightful and general (reversal tests for status quo biases), and one that I wasn't convinced I really grokked but which possibly taught a general lesson (antifragility).
I would call that maybe a score of 2.5 out of 10, in terms of quotes that might actually encourage improvement in general cognitive algorithms. I would therefore suggest something like one of the following:
(1) Be more rigorous in checking that quotes really are rationality quotes before posting them
(2) Having two separate threads—one for rationality quotes and one for other quotes
(3) Renaming 'Rationality Quotes' to 'Quotes' and just having the one thread. This might seem trivial but it at least decreases the association of non-rationality quotes to the concept of rationality.
I would also suggest that quote posters provide longer quotes to provide context or write the context themselves, and explain the lesson behind the quotes. Some of the above quotes seemed obvious at first, but I mysteriously found that when I tried to formulate them crisply, I found them hard to pin down.
Why is the Monty Hall problem so horribly unintuitive? Why does it feel like there's an equal probability to pick the correct door (1/2+1/2) when actually there's not (1/3+2/3)?
Here are the relevant bits from the Wikipedia article:
Out of 228 subjects in one study, only 13% chose to switch (Granberg and Brown, 1995:713). In her book The Power of Logical Thinking, vos Savant (1996, p. 15) quotes cognitive psychologist Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini as saying "... no other statistical puzzle comes so close to fooling all the people all the time" and "that even Nobel physicists systematically give the wrong answer, and that they insist on it, and they are ready to berate in print those who propose the right answer." Interestingly, pigeons make mistakes and learn from mistakes, and experiments show that they rapidly learn to always switch, unlike humans (Herbranson and Schroeder, 2010).
[...]
Although these issues are mathematically significant, even when controlling for these factors nearly all people still think each of the two unopened doors has an equal probability and conclude switching does not matter (Mueser and Granberg, 1999). This "equal probability" assumption is a deeply rooted intuition (Falk 1992:202). People strongly tend to think probability is evenly distributed across as many unknowns as are present, whether it is or not (Fox and Levav, 2004:637). Indeed, if a player believes that sticking and switching are equally successful and therefore equally often decides to switch as to stay, they will win 50% of the time, reinforcing their original belief. Missing the unequal chances of those two doors, and in not considering that (1/3+2/3) / 2 gives a chance of 50%, similar to "the little green woman" example (Marc C. Steinbach, 2000).
The problem continues to attract the attention of cognitive psychologists. The typical behaviour of the majority, i.e., not switching, may be explained by phenomena known in the psychological literature as: 1) the endowment effect (Kahneman et al., 1991); people tend to overvalue the winning probability of the already chosen – already "owned" – door; 2) the status quo bias (Samuelson and Zeckhauser, 1988); people prefer to stick with the choice of door they have already made. Experimental evidence confirms that these are plausible explanations which do not depend on probability intuition (Morone and Fiore, 2007).
Those bias listed in the last paragraph maybe explain why people choose not to switch the door, but what explains the "equal probability" intuition? Do you have any insight on this?
Comment author:gwern
25 February 2014 06:55:41PM
7 points
[-]
Another datapoint is the counterintuitiveness of searching a desk: with each drawer you open looking for something, the probability of finding it in the next drawer increases, but your probability of ever finding it decreases. The difference seems to whipsaw people; see http://www.gwern.net/docs/statistics/1994-falk
Comment author:[deleted]
04 March 2014 07:52:52PM
*
1 point
[+]
(0
children)
Comment author:[deleted]
04 March 2014 07:52:52PM
*
1 point
[-]
A bit late, but I think this part of your article was most relevant to the Monty Hall problem:
Our impression is that subjects’ conservatism, as revealed by the prevalence of the constancy assumptions, is a consequence of their external attribution of uncertainty (Kahneman & Tversky, 1982). The parameters L0 and/or S0 are apparently perceived as properties that belong to the desk, like color, size and texture. Subjects think of these parameters in terms of “the probabilities of the desk”, whereas the Bayesian view would imply expressions like “my probability of the target event”. Thus, subjects fail to incorporate the additional knowledge they acquire when given successive search results.
People probably don't distinguish between their personal probability of the target event and the probabilities of the doors. It feels like the probability of there being a car behind the doors is a parameter that belongs to those doors or to the car - however you want to phrase it. Since you're only given information about what's behind the doors, and that information can't actually change the reality of what's behind the doors then it feels like the probability can't change just because of that.
Comment author:lmm
25 February 2014 11:09:27PM
2 points
[-]
I think the monty hall problem very closely resembles a more natural one in which the probability is 1/2; namely, that where the host is your opponent and chose whether to offer you the chance to switch. So evolutionarily-optimized instincts tell us the probability is 1/2.
Comment author:Coscott
26 February 2014 01:17:31AM
2 points
[-]
I do not think this is correct. First, the host should only offer you the chance to switch if you are winning, so the chance should be 0. Second, this example seems too contrived to be something that we would have evolved a good instinct about.
Comment author:btrettel
02 March 2014 03:35:34AM
*
5 points
[-]
Does anyone have any advice about understanding implicit communication? I regularly interact with guessers and have difficulty understanding their communication. A fair bit of this has to do with my poor hearing, but I've had issues even on text based communication mediums where I understand every word.
My strategy right now is to request explicit confirmation of my suspicions, e.g., here's a recent online chat I had with a friend (I'm A and they're B):
A: Hey, how have you been?
B: I've been ok
B: working in the lab now
A: Okay. Just to be clear, do you mean that you don't want to be disturbed?
B: yeah
"[W]orking in the lab now" is ambiguous. This friend does sometimes chat online when working in the lab. But, I suspected that perhaps they didn't want to chat, so I asked explicitly.
Requesting explicit confirmation seems to annoy most guessers. I've heard quite a few times that I should "just know" what they mean. Perhaps they think that they have some sort of accurate mental model of others' intentions, but I don't think any of us do. Many guessers have been wrong about my thoughts.
I suspect there probably is no good general strategy other than asking for explicit confirmation. Trying to make guessers be askers is tempting, though probably bound to fail in general.
It's worth remembering that there is no single Guess/Hint culture. Such high-context cultures depend on everyone sharing a specific set of interpretation rules, allowing information to be conveyed through subtle signals (hints) rather than explicit messages.
For my own part, I absolutely endorse asking for confirmation in any interaction among peers, taking responses to such requests literally, and disengaging if you don't get a response. If a Guess/Hint-culture native can't step out of their preferred mode long enough to give you a "yes" or "no," and you can't reliably interpret their hints, you're unlikely to have a worthwhile interaction anyway.
With nonpeers, it gets trickier; disengaging (and asking in the first place) may have consequences you prefer to avoid. In which case I recommend talking to third parties who can navigate that particular Guess/Hint dialect, and getting some guidance from them. This can be as blatant as bringing them along to translate for you (or play Cyrano, online), or can be more like asking them for general pointers. (E.g. "I'm visiting a Chinese family for dinner. Is there anything I ought to know about how to offer compliments, ask for more food, turn down food I don't want, make specific requests about food? How do I know when I'm supposed to start eating, stop eating, leave? Are there rules I ought to know about who eats first? Etc. etc. etc.")
B: working in the lab now
A: (suspecting, as you did, that perhaps B didn't want to chat) oh ok. give me a buzz when you're free?
This will typically communicate that you've understood that they're busy and don't want to chat, that you're OK with that, and that you want to talk to them.
That said, there exist Guess/Hint cultures in which it also communicates that you have something urgent to talk about, because if you didn't you would instead have said:
B: working in the lab now
A: oh, ok. bye!
...which in those cultures will communicate that the ball is in their court. (This depends on an implicit understanding that it is NOT OK to leave messages unresponded to, even if they don't explicitly request a response, so they are now obligated to contact you next... but since you didn't explicitly mention it (which would have suggested urgency) they are expected to know that they can do so when it's convenient for them.
EDIT: All of that being said, my inner Hint-culture native also wants to add that being visible in an online chat forum when I'm not free to chat is rude in the first place.
Comment author:EGarrett
01 March 2014 02:28:03PM
5 points
[-]
How do you know when you've had a good idea?
I've found this to actually be difficult to figure out. Sometimes you can google up what you thought. Sometimes checking to see where the idea has been previously stated requires going through papers that may be very very long, or hidden by pay-walls or other barriers on scientific journal sites.
Sometimes it's very hard to google things up. To me, I suppose the standard for "that's a good idea," is if it more clearly explains something I previously observed, or makes it easier or faster for me to do something. But I have no idea whether or not that means it will be interesting for other people.
Comment author:Torello
04 March 2014 01:59:00AM
1 point
[-]
If you have to ask...
Just kidding. It's a great question. Two thoughts: "Nothing is as important as you think it is while you're thinking about it." - Daniel Khaneman "If you want to buy something, wait two weeks and see if you still want to buy it." - my mom
Comment author:wadavis
03 March 2014 06:20:30PM
1 point
[-]
This is a big open topic, but I'll talk about my top method.
I have a prior that our capitalist, semi-open market is thorough and that if an idea is economically feasible, someone else is doing it / working on it. So when I come up with a new good idea, I assume someone else has already thought of it and begin researching why it hasn't been done already. Once that research is done, I'll know not only if it is a good idea or a bad idea but why it is which, and a hint of what it would take to turn it from a bad idea into a good idea. Often these good ideas have been tried / considered before but we may have a local comparative advantage that makes it practical here were it was not elsewhere (legislation, better technology, cheaper labor, costlier labor... )
For example: inland, non-directional, shallow oil, drilling rigs use a very primitive method to survey their well bore. Daydreaming during my undergrad I came up with a alternative method that would provide results orders of magnitudes more accurate. I put together my hypothesis that this was not already in use because: this was a niche market and the components were too costly / poor quality before the smartphone boom. My hypothesis was wrong, a company had a fifteen year old patent on the method and it was being marketed (along with a highly synergistic product line) to offshore drilling rigs. It was a good idea, so good of an idea that it made someone a lot of money 15 years ago and made offshore drilling a lot safer, but it wasn't a good idea for me.
Comment author:Alicorn
01 March 2014 04:43:57PM
*
3 points
[-]
Maybe CfAR should invite him to a workshop.
(I suspect that if CfAR should invite him to a workshop they should do it themselves in some official capacity and don't think random Less Wrongers ought to contact Mr. Jacobs.)
ETA: Ah, rats, the article is from 2008. He's probably lost interest.
Comment author:DanielLC
27 February 2014 09:57:37PM
5 points
[-]
Posts that have appeared since you last red a page have a pinkish border on them. It's really helpful when dealing with things like open threads and quote threads that you read multiple times. Unfortunately, looking at one of the comments makes it think you read all of them. Clicking the "latest open thread" link just shows one of the comments. This means that, if you see something that looks interesting there, you either have to find the latest open thread yourself, or click the link and have it erase everything about what you have and haven't read.
Can someone make it so looking at one of the comments doesn't reset all of them, or at least put a link to the open thread, instead of just the comments?
The general problem is real, but here's a solution to the specific problem of finding the latest open thread: just click the words "latest open thread," rather than the comment that displays below it.
Comment author:James_Miller
25 February 2014 08:04:38PM
5 points
[-]
To illustrate dead-weight loss in my intro micro class I first take out a dollar bill and give it to a student and then explain that the sum of the wealth of the people in the classroom hasn't changed. Next, I take a second dollar bill and rip it up and throw it in the garbage. My students always laugh nervously as if I've done something scandalous like pulling down my pants. Why?
Comment author:Yvain
28 February 2014 09:47:53AM
7 points
[-]
Because it signals "I am so wealthy that I can afford to tear up money" and blatantly signaling wealth is crass. And it also signals "I am so callous that I would rather tear up money than give it to the poor", which is also crass. And the argument that a one dollar bill really isn't very much money isn't enough to disrupt the signal.
Comment author:pan
25 February 2014 05:27:32PM
5 points
[-]
I've been reading critiques of MIRI, and I was wondering if anyone has responded to this particular critique that basically asks for a detailed analysis of all probabilities someone took into account when deciding that the singularity is going to happen.
(I'd also be interested in responses aimed at Alexander Kruel in general, as he seems to have a lot to say about Lesswrong/Miri.)
Comment author:[deleted]
25 February 2014 06:38:16PM
5 points
[-]
I actually lost my faith in MIRI because of Kruel's criticism, so I too would be glad if someone adressed it. I think his criticism is far more comprehensive that most of the other criticism on this page (well, this post has little bit of the same).
Comment author:Kaj_Sotala
27 February 2014 01:18:29PM
5 points
[-]
Is there anything specific that he's said that's caused you to lose your faith? I tire of debating him directly, because he seems to twist everything into weird strawmen that I quickly lose interest in trying to address. But I could try briefly commenting on whatever you've found persuasive.
Comment author:[deleted]
01 March 2014 07:05:46PM
*
1 point
[+]
(3
children)
Comment author:[deleted]
01 March 2014 07:05:46PM
*
1 point
[-]
I’m going to quote things I agreed with or things that persuaded me or that worried me.
Okay, to start off, when I first read about this in Intelligence Explosion: Evidence and Import, Facing the Intelligence Explosion, Intelligence Explosion and Machine Ethics it just felt like self-evident and I’m not sure how thoroughly I went through the presuppositions during that time so Kruel could have very easily persuaded me about this. I don’t know much about the technical process of writing an AGI so excuse me if I get something wrong about that particular thing.
Are the conclusions justified? Are the arguments based on firm ground? Would their arguments withstand a critical inspection or examination by a third party, peer review? Are their estimations reflectively stable? How large is the model uncertainty?
Most of their arguments are based on a few conjectures and presuppositions about the behavior, drives and motivations of intelligent machines and the use of probability and utility calculations to legitimate action.
It’s founded on many, many assumptions not supported by empirical data, and if even one of them was wrong the whole thing collapses down. And you can’t really even know how many unfounded sub-assumptions there are in these original assumptions. But when I started thinking about it could be that it’s impossible to reason about those kind of assumptions if you do it any other way than how MIRI currently does it. Needing to formalize a mathematical expression before you can do anything like Kruel suggested is a bit unfair.
The concept of an intelligence explosion, which is itself a logical implication, should not be used to make further inferences and estimations without additional evidence.
The likelihood of a gradual and controllable development versus the likelihood of an intelligence explosion.
The likelihood of unfriendly AI versus friendly AI as the outcome of practical AI research.
I don’t see why the first AIs resembling general intelligences would be very powerful so practical AGI research is probably somewhat safe in the early stages.
The ability of superhuman intelligence and cognitive flexibility as characteristics alone to constitute a serious risk given the absence of enabling technologies like advanced nanotechnology.
That some highly intelligent people who are aware of the Singularity Institute’s position do not accept it.
How is an AI going to become a master of dark arts and social engineering in order to persuade and deceive humans?
How is an AI going to coordinate a large scale conspiracy or deception, given its initial resources, without making any suspicious mistakes along the way?
Are those computational resources that can be hacked applicable to improve the general intelligence of an AI?
Does throwing more computational resources at important problems, like building new and better computational substrates, allow an AI to come up with better architectures so much faster as to outweigh the expenditure of obtaining those resources, without hitting diminishing returns?
This I would like to know, how scalable is intelligence?
How does an AI brute-force the discovery of unknown unknowns?
(I thought maybe by dedicating lots of computation to a very large numbers of random scenarios)
How is an AI going to solve important problems without real-world experimentation and slow environmental feedback?
(maybe by simulating the real world environment)
How is an AI going to build new computational substrates and obtain control of those resources without making use of existing infrastructure?
How is an AI going to cloak its actions, i.e. its energy consumption etc.?
The existence of a robot that could navigate autonomously in a real-world environment and survive real-world threats and attacks with approximately the skill of C. elegans. A machine that can quickly learn to play Go on its own, unassisted by humans, and beat the best human players.
A theorem that there likely exists a information theoretically simple, physically and economically realizable, algorithm that can be improved to self-improve explosively. Prove that there likely are no strongly diminishing intelligence returns for additional compute power.
Show how something like expected utility maximization would actually work out in practice.
Conclusive evidence that current research will actually lead to the creation of superhuman AI designs equipped with the relevant drives that are necessary to disregard any explicit or implicit spatio-temporal scope boundaries and resource limits.
Thoughts on this article. I read about the Nurture Assumption in Slate Star Codex and it probably changed my priors on this. If it really is true and one dedicated psychologist could do all that, then MIRI probably could also work because artificial intelligence is such a messy subject that a brute force approach using thousands of researchers in one project probably isn't optimal. So I probably wouldn’t let MIRI code an AGI on its own (maybe) but it could give some useful insight that other organizations are not capable of.
But I have to say that I’m more favorable to the idea now than when I made that post. There could be something in the idea of intelligence explosion, but there are probably several thresholds in computing power and in the practical use of the intelligence. Like Squark said above, the research is still interesting and if continued will probably be useful in many ways.
love,
the father of the unmatchable (ignore this, I'm just trying to build a constructive identity)
Comment author:Kaj_Sotala
05 March 2014 04:45:20PM
2 points
[-]
Brief replies to the bits that you quoted:
(These are my personal views and do not reflect MIRI's official position, I don't even work there anymore.)
The concept of an intelligence explosion, which is itself a logical implication, should not be used to make further inferences and estimations without additional evidence.
Not sure how to interpret this. What does the "further inferences and estimations" refer to?
The likelihood of a gradual and controllable development versus the likelihood of an intelligence explosion.
See this comment for references to sources that discuss this.
But note that an intelligence explosion is sufficient but not necessary for AGI to be risky: just because development is gradual doesn't mean that it will be safe. The Chernobyl power plant was the result of gradual development in nuclear engineering. Countless other disasters have likewise been caused by technologies that were developed gradually.
The likelihood of unfriendly AI versus friendly AI as the outcome of practical AI research.
Hard to say for sure, but note that few technologies are safe unless people work to make them safe, and the more complex the technology, the more effort is needed to ensure that no unexpected situations crop up where it turns out to be unsafe after all. See also section 5.1.1. of Responses to Catastrophic AGI Risk for a brief discussion about various incentives that may pressure people to deploy increasingly autonomous AI systems into domains where their enemies or competitors are doing the same, even if it isn't necessarily safe.
The ability of superhuman intelligence and cognitive flexibility as characteristics alone to constitute a serious risk given the absence of enabling technologies like advanced nanotechnology.
We're already giving computers considerable power in the economy, even without nanotechnology: see automated stock trading (and the resulting 2010 Flash Crash), various military drones, visions for replacing all cars (and ships) with self-driving ones, the amount of purchases that are carried out electronically via credit/debit cards or PayPal versus the ones that are done in old-fashioned cash, and so on and so on. See also section 2.1. of Responses to Catastrophic AGI Risk, as well as the previously mentioned section 5.1.1., for some discussion of why these trends are only likely to continue.
That some highly intelligent people who are aware of the Singularity Institute’s position do not accept it.
Expert disagreement is a viable reason to put reduced weight on the arguments, true, but this bullet point doesn't indicate exactly what parts they disagree on. So it's hard to comment further.
How is an AI going to become a master of dark arts and social engineering in order to persuade and deceive humans?
Some possibilities:
It's built with a general skill-learning capability and all the collected psychology papers as well as people's accounts of their lives that are available online are sufficient to build up the skill, especially if it gets to practice enough.
It's an AI expressely designed and developed for that purpose, due to being developed for political, marketing, or military purposes.
It doesn't and it doesn't need to, because it does damage via some other (possibly unforeseen) method.
How is an AI going to coordinate a large scale conspiracy or deception, given its initial resources, without making any suspicious mistakes along the way?
This seems to presuppose that the AI is going to coordinate a large-scale conspiracy. Which might be happen or it might not. If it does, possibly the six first AIs that try it do commit various mistakes and are stopped, but the seventh one learns from their mistakes and does things differently. Or maybe an AI is created by a company like Google that already wields massive resources, so it doesn't need to coordinate a huge conspiracy to obtain lots of resources. Or maybe the AI is just a really hard worker and sells its services to people and accumulates lots of money and power that way. Or...
This is what frustrates me about a lot of Kruel's comments: often they seem to be presupposing some awfully narrow and specific scenario, when in reality are countless of different ways by which AIs might become dangerous.
Are those computational resources that can be hacked applicable to improve the general intelligence of an AI?
Nobody knows, but note that this also depends a lot on how you define "general intelligence". For instance, suppose that if you control five computers rather than just one, you can't become qualitatively more intelligent, but you can do five times as many things at the same time, and of course require your enemies to knock out five times as many computers if they want to incapacitate you. You can do a lot of stuff with general-purpose hardware, of which improving your own intelligence is but one (albeit very useful) possibility.
Does throwing more computational resources at important problems, like building new and better computational substrates, allow an AI to come up with better architectures so much faster as to outweigh the expenditure of obtaining those resources, without hitting diminishing returns?
This question is weird. "Diminishing returns" just means that if you initially get X units of benefit per unit invested, then at some point you'll get Y units of benefit per unit invested, where X > Y. But this can still be a profitable investment regardless.
I guess this means something like "will there be a point where it won't be useful for the AI to invest in self-improvement anymore". If you frame it that way, the answer is obviously yes: you can't improve forever. But that's not an interesting question: the interesting question is whether the AI will hit that point before it has obtained any considerable advantage over humans.
As for that question, well, evolution is basically a brute-force search algorithm that can easily become stuck in local optimums, which cannot plan ahead, which has mainly optimized humans for living in a hunter-gatherer environment, and which has been forced to work within the constraints of biological cells and similar building material. Is there any reason to assume that such a process would have produced creatures with no major room for improvement?
Moravec's Pigs in Cyberspace is also relevant, the four last paragraphs in particular.
How does an AI brute-force the discovery of unknown unknowns?
Not sure what's meant by this.
How is an AI going to solve important problems without real-world experimentation and slow environmental feedback?
Your "maybe by simulating the real world environment" is indeed one possible answer. Also, who's to say that the AI couldn't do real-world experimentation?
How is an AI going to build new computational substrates and obtain control of those resources without making use of existing infrastructure?
How is an AI going to cloak its actions, i.e. its energy consumption etc.?
A theorem that there likely exists a information theoretically simple, physically and economically realizable, algorithm that can be improved to self-improve explosively. Prove that there likely are no strongly diminishing intelligence returns for additional compute power.
More unexplainedly narrow assumptions. Why isn't the AI allowed to make use of existing infrastructure? Why does it necessarily need to hide its energy consumption? Why does the AI's algorithm need to be information-theoretically simple?
The existence of a robot that could navigate autonomously in a real-world environment and survive real-world threats and attacks with approximately the skill of C. elegans. A machine that can quickly learn to play Go on its own, unassisted by humans, and beat the best human players.
Self-driving cars are getting there, as are Go AIs.
Show how something like expected utility maximization would actually work out in practice.
What does this mean? Expected utility maximization is a standard AI technique already.
Conclusive evidence that current research will actually lead to the creation of superhuman AI designs equipped with the relevant drives that are necessary to disregard any explicit or implicit spatio-temporal scope boundaries and resource limits.
Comment author:XiXiDu
05 March 2014 06:00:10PM
*
1 point
[-]
What does the "further inferences and estimations" refer to?
Basically the hundreds of hours it would take MIRI to close the inferential distance between them and AI experts. See e.g. this comment by
Luke Muehlhauser:
I agree with Eliezer that the main difficulty is in getting top-quality, relatively rational people to spend hundreds of hours being educated, working through the arguments, etc.
If your arguments are this complex then you are probably wrong.
But note that an intelligence explosion is sufficient but not necessary for AGI to be risky: just because development is gradual doesn't mean that it will be safe.
I do not disagree with that kind of AI risks. If MIRI is working on mitigating AI risks that do not require an intelligence explosion, a certain set of AI drives and a bunch of, from my perspective, very unlikely developments...then I was not aware of that.
Hard to say for sure, but note that few technologies are safe unless people work to make them safe, and the more complex the technology, the more effort is needed to ensure that no unexpected situations crop up where it turns out to be unsafe after all.
This seems very misleading. We are after all talking about a technology that works perfectly well at being actively unsafe. You have to get lots of things right, e.g. that the AI cares to take over the world, knows how to improve itself, and manages to hide its true intentions before it can do so etc. etc. etc.
Expert disagreement is a viable reason to put reduced weight on the arguments, true, but this bullet point doesn't indicate exactly what parts they disagree on.
There is a reason why MIRI doesn't know this. Look at the latest interviews with experts conducted by Luke Muehlhauser. He doesn't even try to figure out if they disagree with Xenu, but only asks uncontroversial questions.
This is what frustrates me about a lot of Kruel's comments: often they seem to be presupposing some awfully narrow and specific scenario...
Crazy...this is why I am criticizing MIRI. A focus on an awfully narrow and specific scenario rather than AI risks in general.
...suppose that if you control five computers rather than just one, you can't become qualitatively more intelligent, but you can do five times as many things at the same time...
Consider that the U.S. had many more and smarter people than the Taliban. The bottom line being that the U.S. devoted a lot more output per man-hour to defeat a completely inferior enemy. Yet their advantage apparently did scale sublinearly.
I guess this means something like "will there be a point where it won't be useful for the AI to invest in self-improvement anymore". If you frame it that way, the answer is obviously yes: you can't improve forever. But that's not an interesting question: the interesting question is whether the AI will hit that point before it has obtained any considerable advantage over humans.
I do not disagree that there are minds better at social engineering than that of e.g. Hitler, but I strongly doubt that there are minds which are vastly better. Optimizing a political speech for 10 versus a million subjective years won't make it one hundred thousand times more persuasive.
Is there any reason to assume that such a process would have produced creatures with no major room for improvement?
The question is if just because humans are much smarter and stronger they can actually wipe out mosquitoes. Well, they can...but it is either very difficult or will harm humans.
Also, who's to say that the AI couldn't do real-world experimentation?
You already need to build huge particle accelerators to gain new physical insights and need a whole technological civilization in order to build an iPhone. You can't just get around this easily and overnight.
Everything else you wrote I already discuss in detail in various posts.
Comment author:Coscott
26 February 2014 05:45:44AM
4 points
[-]
Spritz seems like a cool speed reading technique, especially if you have or plan on getting a smart watch. I have no idea how well it works, but I am interested in trying, especially since it does not take a huge training phase. (Click on the phone on that site for a quick demo.)
Comment author:badger
25 February 2014 10:08:11PM
4 points
[-]
Does anyone have advice on how to optimize the expectation of a noisy function? The naive approach I've used is to sample the function for a given parameter a decent number of times, average those together, and hope the result is close enough to stand in for the true objective function. This seems really wasteful though.
Most of the algorithms I'm coming (like modelling the objective function with gaussian process regression) would be useful, but are more high-powered than I need. Any simple techniques better than the naive approach? Any recommendations among sophisticated approaches?
Comment author:VincentYu
26 February 2014 12:39:44AM
2 points
[-]
There are some techniques that can be used with simulated annealing to deal with noise in the evaluation of the objective function. See Section 3 of Branke et al (2008) for a quick overview of proposed methods (they also propose new techniques in that paper). Most of these techniques come with the usual convergence guarantees that are associated with simulated annealing (but there are of course performance penalties in dealing with noise).
What is the dimensionality of your parameter space? What do you know about the noise? (e.g., if you know that the noise is mostly homoscedastic or if you can parameterize it, then you can probably use this to push the performance of some of the simulated annealing algorithms.)
Comment author:Coscott
25 February 2014 05:19:08AM
*
8 points
[-]
Here is a video of someone interviewing people to see if they can guess a pattern by asking whether or not a sequence of 3 numbers satisfies the pattern. (like was mentioned in HPMOR)
Comment author:Vulture
26 February 2014 03:25:09AM
3 points
[-]
Low priority site enhancement suggestion:
Would it be possible/easy to display the upvotes-to-downvotes ratios as exact fractions rather than rounded percentages? This would make it possible to determine exactly how many votes a comment required without digging through source, which would be nice in quickly determining the difference between a mildly controversial comment and an extremely controversial one.
Comment author:Coscott
26 February 2014 04:11:32AM
4 points
[-]
This has been suggested several times before, and is in my opinion VERY low priority compared to all the other things we should be doing to fix Less Wrong logistics.
Comment author:DanielVarga
25 February 2014 03:16:50PM
3 points
[-]
My eye doctor diagnosed closed-angle glaucoma, and recommends an iridectomy. I think he might be a bit too trigger-happy, so I followed up with another doctor, and she didn't find the glaucoma. She carefully stated that the first diagnosis can still be the correct one, the first was a more complete examination.
Any insights about the pros and cons of iridectomy?
Comment author:David_Gerard
27 February 2014 03:35:33PM
*
6 points
[-]
A question I'm not sure how to phrase to Google, and which has so far made Facebook friends think too hard and go back to doing work at work: what is the maximum output bandwidth of a human, in bits/sec? That is, from your mind to the outside world. Sound, movement, blushing, EKG. As long as it's deliberate. What's the most an arbitrarily fast mind running in a human body could achieve?
(gwern pointed me at the Whole Brain Emulation Roadmap; the question of extracting data from an intact brain is covered in Appendix E, but without numbers and mostly with hypothetical technology.)
Comment author:gwern
27 February 2014 10:55:08PM
3 points
[-]
Why not simply estimate it yourself? These sorts of things aren't very hard to do. For example, you can estimate typing as follows: peak at 120 WPM; words are average 4 characters; each character (per Shannon and other's research; see http://www.gwern.net/Notes#efficient-natural-language ) conveys ~1 bit; hence your typing bandwidth is 120 * 4 * 1 = <480 bits per minute or <8 bits per second.
Do that for a few modalities like speech, and sum.
Comment author:Illano
28 February 2014 03:40:44PM
2 points
[-]
As a baseline estimate for just the muscular system, the worlds faster drummer can play at about 20 beats per second. That's probably an upper limit on twitch speeds of human muscles, even with a arbitrarily fast mind running in the body. Assuming you had a system on the receiving end that could detect arbitrary muscle contractions, and could control each muscle in your body independently (again, this is an arbitrarily fast mind, so I'd think it should be able to), there are about 650 muscle groups in the body according to wikipedia, so I would say a good estimate for just the muscular system would be 650 x 20bits/s or about 13 Kb/s.
Once you get into things like EKGs, I think it all depends on how much control the mind actually has over processes that are largely subconscious, as well as how sensitive your receiving devices are. That could make the bandwidth much higher, but I don't know a good way to estimate that.
Comment author:[deleted]
01 March 2014 06:29:23AM
5 points
[-]
Someone was asking a while back for meetup descriptions, what you did/ how it went, etc. Figured I'd post some Columbus Rationality videos here. All but the last are from the mega-meetup.
Comment author:amacfie
02 March 2014 11:19:24PM
2 points
[-]
What do you do when you're low on mental energy? I'm a computer science researcher and I have had trouble thinking of anything productive to do when my brain seems to need a break from hard thinking. When I'm really low on mental energy, I go on YouTube, but I feel like that is killing my attention span, and once I go on, I stay too long.
Comment author:Jennifer_H
11 March 2014 03:55:10PM
1 point
[-]
A rather belated response, but hopefully still relevant: consider exploring fields of interest to you that are sufficiently different from compsci to give your brain a break while still being productive?
To explain by means of an example: I happen to have a strong interest in both historical philology and theoretical physics, and I've actively leveraged this to my advantage in that when my brain is fed up of thinking about conundrums of translation in Old Norse poetry, I'll switch gears completely and crack open a textbook on, say, subatomic physics or Lie algebras, and start reading/working problems. Similarly, if I've spent several hours trying to wrap my head around a mathematical concept and need a respite, I can go read an article or a book on some aspect of Anglo-Saxon literature. It's still a productive use of time, but it's also a refreshing break, because it requires a different type of thinking. (At least, in my experience?) Of course, if I'm exceptionally low on energy, I simply resort to burying myself in a good book (non-fiction or fiction, generally it doesn't matter).
Another example: a friend of mine is a computer scientist, but did a minor in philosophy and is an avid musician in his spare time. (And both reading philosophy and practicing music have the added advantage of being activities that do not involve staring at a computer screen!)
Comment author:drethelin
03 March 2014 02:49:51AM
1 point
[-]
You can use pomodoros for leisure as well as work. If you worry about staying too long on the internet you can set a timer or a random alarm to kick you off.
So, MtGox has declared bankruptcy. Does that make this a good time, or a bad time to invest in Bitcoins? And if a good time, where is the best place to buy them?
Comment author:CellBioGuy
01 March 2014 05:29:49AM
3 points
[-]
As for the second question, I use coinbase. As to the first, never try to time these things. You will be beaten by people with more information. Instead just slowly trickle in and have pre-defined rules about when you will sell rather than trying to time an exit. Though I admit I broke my own advice and did an impulse-buy the other night when everyone was panicking over Gox and the price was $100 less than a day before and a day after.
Comment author:Prismattic
28 February 2014 01:51:16AM
2 points
[-]
I’m basically exactly the kind of person Yvain described here, (minus the passive-aggressive/Machiavellian phase). I notice that that post was sort of a plea for society to behave a different way, but it did not really offer any advice for rectifying the atypical attachment style in the meantime. And I could really use some, because I’ve gotten al-Fulani’d. I’m madly in love in with a woman who does not reciprocate. I’ve actually tried going back on OkCupid to move on, and I literally cannot bring myself to message anyone new, as no one else approaches her either in terms of beauty or in terms of being generally interesting (Despite a tendency to get totally snowed by the halo effect, I’m confident that I would consider her interesting even if she were not so beautiful, though a desire to protect her anonymity prevents me from offering specifics.)
Complicating my situation – when she told me she just wanted to be friends, she actually meant that part. And as she is an awesome person, I don’t want to lose the friendship, which means I’m constantly re-exposed to her and can’t even rely on gradual desensitization. Furthermore, when I asked her if my correcting [failure mode that contributed to her not seeing me in a romantic way] would cause her to reconsider, hoping she’d deliver the coup de grace, she said correcting the failure mode would be a good idea, but she didn’t know whether it would change her feeling about a relationship. This leaves me in the arguably worse situation of having a sliver of hope, however miniscule.
Note that I’m not looking for PUA-type advice here, since a) you would assume from looking at me that I’m an alpha and I have no trouble getting dates, and b) I’m not looking to maximize number of intimate partners.
What I want is advice on a) how not to fall so hard/so fast for (a very small minority of) women, and b)how to break the spell the current one has over me without giving up her friendship. I assume this tendency to rapid, all-consuming affection isn’t an immutable mental trait?
Comment author:Viliam_Bur
28 February 2014 10:17:40AM
*
8 points
[-]
Note that I’m not looking for PUA-type advice ... I want is advice on a) how not to fall so hard/so fast for (a very small minority of) women, and b)how to break the spell the current one has over me without giving up her friendship.
Seems to me like you want to overcome your "one-itis" and stop being a "beta orbiter", but you are not looking for an advice which would actually use words like "one-itis" and "beta orbiter". I know it's an exaggeration, but this is almost how it seems to me. Well, I'll try to comply:
1) You don't have to maximize the number of sexual partners. You still could try to increase a number of interesting women you had interesting conversation with. I believe that is perfectly morally okay, and still could reduce the feeling of scarcity.
Actually, any interesting activity would be helpful. Anything you can think about, instead of spending your time thinking about that one person.
2) Regularly interacting the person you are obsessed with is exactly how you maximize the length of obsession. It's like saying that you want to overcome your alcohol addiction, but you don't want to stop drinking regularly. Well, if one is not an alcoholic, they can manage to drink moderately without developing an addiction; but when one already is an alcoholic, the only way to quit is to stop drinking, completely, for a very long time. The reliable way to overcome the obsession with another person is to stop all contact for, I don't know, maybe three months. No talking, no phone calls, no e-mails, no checking her facebook page, no praying to her statue or a photograph, no asking mutual friends about how she lives, no composing poems about her... absolutely no new information about her and no imaginary interaction with her. And doing something meaningful instead.
When the obsession is over, then you can try the friendship. Until then, it's just an obsession rationalized as friendship; an addiction rationalized as not wanting to give up the good parts.
I suggest self-investing because, right now, a large part of your identity is entangled with your feelings towards her. Self-investing means growing your identity means transcending your feelings.
I suggest flow because, if you pull off a flow state, you invest all your cognitive resources in the task you're working on. Meaning your brain is unable to think of anything else. This is incredibly valuable.
a. I'm coming out of a similar situation. A large contributor was the fact I wasn't meeting a lot of women. If your universe consists of two datable women, it's easy to obsess on one. If you're regularly meeting a lot of women who tend to have the traits you look for, that happens much less. May not be your problem, but what you've written sounds familiar enough that I'm going to go ahead and try other-optimizing.
If you haven't read it yet, this is generally helpful.
Comment author:Brillyant
27 February 2014 04:40:23AM
2 points
[-]
This is one of those times I wish LW allowed explicit politics. SB 1062 in AZ has me craving interesting, rational discussion on the implications of this veto.
Comment author:bramflakes
28 February 2014 12:36:36PM
2 points
[-]
In the sites that I frequent, "containment" boards or threads work well to reduce community tension about controversial topics.
Plus, in LW's case, the norm against political discussion makes it so that any political discussion that does take place is dominated by people with very strong and/or contrarian opinions, because they're the ones that care more about the politics than the norm. If we have a designated "politics zone" where you don't have to feel guilty about talking politics, it would make for a more pluralistic discussion.
Comment author:Alejandro1
27 February 2014 04:01:52PM
2 points
[-]
I voted Yes, but only if a community norm emerges that any discussion on any part of LW that becomes political (by which I include not just electoral politics, but also and especially topics like sexism, racism, privilege, political correctness, genetic differences in intelligence, etc.) is moved to the latest political thread. The idea is to have a "walled garden inside the walled garden" so that people who want LW to be a nominally politics-free environment can still approximate that experience, while does who don't get to discuss these topics in the specific threads for them, and only there.
Comment author:TheOtherDave
27 February 2014 04:37:50PM
3 points
[-]
Another way to achieve a similar effect is to post about electoral politics, sexism, racism, privilege, political correctness, genetic differences in intelligence, and similar "political" issues (by which I mean here issues with such pervasive partisan associations that we expect discussions of them to become subject to the failure modes created by such associations) on our own blogs*, and include links to those discussions on LW where we think they are of general interest to the LW community.
That way, LW members who want to discuss (some or all of) these topics in a way that doesn't spill over into the larger LW forum can do so without bothering anyone else.
* Where "blogs" here means, more broadly, any conversation-hosting forum, including anonymous ones created for the purpose if we want.
Comment author:Alejandro1
27 February 2014 05:51:43PM
3 points
[-]
One problem with that suggestion is that these discussions often arise organically in a LW thread ostensibly dedicated to another topic, and they may arise between people who don't have other blogs or natural places to take the conversation when it arises.
Comment author:Coscott
28 February 2014 09:06:45AM
1 point
[-]
In fact, having posts with "(Politics)" in the title might allow people to avoid it better, because it might make politics come up less often in other threads.
Comment author:[deleted]
28 February 2014 11:31:52PM
2 points
[-]
My initial idea was a (weekly?) politics open thread, to make it as easy as possible to avoid politics threads / prevent risk of /discussion getting swamped by [politics]-tagged threads, but given the criticisms that have been raised of the karma system already, it's probably best to keep it offsite. There's already a network of rationality blogs; maybe lw-politics could be split off as a group blog? That might make it too difficult for people to start topics, though -- so your idea is probably best. Possibly have a separate lw-politics feed / link aggregator that relevant posts could be submitted to, so they don't get missed by people who would be interested and people don't have to maintain their own RSS feeds to catch all the relevant posts.
Comment author:asr
27 February 2014 05:09:41PM
1 point
[-]
include links to those discussions on LW where we think they are of general interest to the LW community.
If such linking becomes common, I would appreciate an explicit request to "please have substantive discussion over there, not here." This also avoids the problem of a conversation being fragmented across two discussion sites.
Comment author:Coscott
26 February 2014 06:50:04PM
*
2 points
[-]
One common rationality technique is to put off proposing solutions until you have thought (or discussed) a problem for a while. The goal is to keep yourself from becoming attached to the solutions you propose.
I wonder if the converse approach of "start by proposing lots and lots of solutions, even if they are bad" could be a good idea. In theory, perhaps I could train myself to not be too attached to any given solution I propose, by setting the bar for "proposed solution" to be very low.
In one couples counseling course that I went through, the first step for conflict resolution (after choose a time to discuss and identify the problem) was to together write down at least 10 possible solutions before analyzing any of them. I can perhaps see how this might be more valuable for conflict resolution than for other things, since it gives the other party the sense that you are really trying.
However, it seems plausible to me that even in other contexts, this could be even better than avoiding proposing solutions.
Of course, solution does not have to refer to a proposed action, the same technique could be applied to proposing theories about the cause of some observation.
I'd like to know where I can go to meet awesome people/ make awesome friends. Occasionally, Yvain will brag about how awesome his social group in the Bay Area was. See here (do read it - its a very cool piece) and I'd like to also have an awesome social circle. As far as I can tell this is a two part problem. The first part is having the requisite social skills to turn strangers into acquaintances and then turn acquaintances into friends. The second part is knowing where to go to find people.
I think that the first part is a solved problem, if you want to learn how to socialize then practice. Which is not to say that it is easy, but its doable. I've heard the suggestion of going to a night club to practice talking to strangers. This is good since people are there to socialize, and I'm sure I could meet all sort of interesting people at one, but I'd like other ideas.
I'd like to know where to go to meet people who I would be likely to get along with. Does anyone have ideas? My list so far
1: Moving to the Bay Area - impractical.
2: Starting a LW meetup - good idea, but it seems like it takes a fair bit of effort.
3: Reaching out into one's extended social circle eg. having a party with your friends and their friends - Probably the most common way people meet new people.
Comment author:Viliam_Bur
01 March 2014 03:21:36PM
3 points
[-]
How about you simply write where you live, and tell other LWers in the same area to contact you? It may or may not work, but the effort needed is extremely low. (You can also put that information in LW settings.)
Or write this: "I am interested in meeting LW readers in [insert place], so if you live near and would like to meet and talk, send me a private message".
Comment author:David_Gerard
27 February 2014 04:21:37PM
*
3 points
[-]
How To Be A Proper Fucking Scientist – A Short Quiz. From Armondikov of RationalWiki, in his "annoyed scientist" persona. A list of real-life Bayesian questions for you to pick holes in the assumptions of^W^W^W^W^W^Wtest yourselves on.
Comment author:Kawoomba
26 February 2014 11:39:18AM
*
3 points
[-]
Richard Loosemore (score one for nominative determinism) has a new, well, let's say "paper" which he has, well, let's say "published" here.
His refutation of the usual uFAI scenarios relies solely/mostly on a supposed logical contradiction, namely (to save you a few precious minutes) that a 'CLAI' (a Canonical Logical AI) wouldn't be able to both know about its own fallability/limitations (inevitable in a resource-constrained environment such as reality), and accept the discrepancy between its specified goal system and the creators' actual design intentions. Being superpowerful, the uFAI would notice that it is not following its creator-intended goals but "only" its actually-programmed-in goals*, which, um, wouldn't allow it to continue acting against its creator-intended goals.
So if you were to design a plain ol' garden-variety nuclear weapon intended for gardening purposes ("destroy the weed"), it would go off even if that's not what you actually wanted. However, if you made that weapon super-smart, it would be smart enough to abandon its given goal ("What am I doing with my life?"), consult its creators, and after some deliberation deactivate itself. As such, a sufficiently smart agent would apparently have a "DWIM" (do what the creator means) imperative built-in, which would even supersede its actually given goals -- being sufficiently smart, it would understand that its goals are "wrong" (from some other agent's point of view), and self-modify, or it would not be superintelligent. Like a bizarre version of the argument from evil.
There is no such logical contradiction. Tautologically, an agent is beholden to its own goals, and no other goals. There is no level of capability which magically leads to allowing for fundamental changes to its own goals, on the contrary, the more capable an agent, the more it can take precautions for its goals not to be altered.
If "the goals the superintelligent agent pursues" and "the goals which the creators want the superintelligent agent to pursue, but which are not in fact part of the superintelligent agent's goals" clash, what possible reason would there be for the superintelligent agent to care, or to change itself, changing itself for reasons that squarely come from a category of "goals of other agents (squirrels, programmers, creators, Martians) which are not my goals"? Why, how good of you to ask. There's no such reason for an agent to change, and thus no contradiction.
If someone designed a super-capable killer robot, but by flipping a sign, it came out as a super-capable Gandhi-bot (the horror!), no amount of "but hey look, you're supposed to kill that village" would cause Gandhi-bot to self-modify into a T-800. The bot isn't gonna short-circuit just because someone has goals which aren't its own goals. In particular, there is no capability-level threshold from which on the Gandhi-bot would become a T-800. Instead, at all power levels, it is "content" following its own goals, again, tautologically so.
Comment author:XiXiDu
27 February 2014 12:46:50PM
4 points
[-]
As such, a sufficiently smart agent would apparently have a "DWIM" (do what the creator means) imperative built-in, which would even supersede its actually given goals -- being sufficiently smart, it would understand that its goals are "wrong" (from some other agent's point of view), and self-modify, or it would not be superintelligent.
Here is a description of a real-world AI by Microsoft's chief AI researcher:
Without any programming, we just had an ai system that watched what people did.
For about three months.
Over the three months, the system started to learn, this is how people behave when they want to enter an elevator.
This is the type of person that wants to go to the third floor as opposed to the fourth floor.
After that training.
Period, we switched off the learning period and said go ahead and control the leaders.
Without any programming at all, the system was able to understand people's intentions and act on their behalf.
Does it have a DWIM imperative? As far as I can tell, no. Does it have goals? As far as I can tell, no. Does it fail by absurdly misinterpreting what humans want? No.
This whole talk about goals and DWIM modules seems to miss how real world AI is developed and how natural intelligences like dogs work. Dogs can learn the owners goals and do what the owner wants. Sometimes they don't. But they rarely maul their owners when what the owner wants it to do is to scent out drugs.
Comment author:Squark
27 February 2014 08:40:07PM
3 points
[-]
I think we need to be very careful before extrapolating from primitive elevator control systems to superintelligent AI. I don't know how this particular elevator control system works, but probably it does have a goal, namely minimizing the time people have to wait before arriving at their target floor. If we built a superintelligent AI with this sort of goal it might have done all sorts of crazy thing. For example, it might create robots that will constantly enter and exit the elevator so their average elevator trips are very short and wipe out the human race just so they won't interfere.
"Real world AI" is currently very far from human level intelligence, not speaking of superintelligence. Dogs can learn what their owners want but dogs already have complex brains that current technology is not able of reproducing. Dogs also require displays of strength to be obedient: they consider the owner to be their pack leader. A superintelligent dog probably won't give a dime about his "owner's" desires. Humans have human values, so obviously it's not impossible to create a system that has human values. It doesn't mean it is easy.
Comment author:drethelin
27 February 2014 07:11:13PM
1 point
[-]
Feedback systems are much more powerful in existing intelligences. I don't know if you ever played Black and White but it had an explicitly learning through experience based AI. And it was very easy to accidentally train it to constantly eat poop or run back and forth stupidly. An elevator control module is very very simple: It has a set of options of floors to go to, and that's it. It's barely capable of doing anything actively bad. But what if a few days a week some kids had come into the office building and rode the elevator up and down for a few hours for fun? It might learn that kids love going to all sorts of random floors. This would be relatively easy to fix, but only because the system is so insanely simple and it's very clear to see when it's acting up.
Comment author:Squark
26 February 2014 07:09:46PM
3 points
[-]
The condescending tone with which he presents his arguments (which are, paraphrasing him, "slightly odd, to say the least") is amazing. Who is this guy and where did he come from? Does anyone care about what he has to say?
Comment author:gwern
26 February 2014 08:45:28PM
4 points
[-]
Loosemore has been an occasional commenter since the SL4 days; his arguments have heavily criticized pretty much anytime he pops his head up. As far as I know, XiXiDu is the only one who agrees with him or takes him seriously.
Comment author:XiXiDu
27 February 2014 09:53:45AM
*
1 point
[-]
As far as I know, XiXiDu is the only one who agrees with him or takes him seriously.
He actually cites someone else who agrees with him in his paper, so this can't be true. And from the positive feedback he gets on Facebook there seem to be more. I personally chatted with people much smarter than me (experts who can show off widely recognized real-world achievements) who basically agree with him.
his arguments have heavily criticized pretty much anytime he pops his head up.
What people criticize here is a distortion of small parts of his arguments. RobBB managed to write a whole post expounding his ignorance of what Loosemore is arguing.
Comment author:gwern
27 February 2014 06:41:15PM
8 points
[-]
He actually cites someone else who agrees with him in his paper, so this can't be true.
I said as far as I know. I had not read the paper because I don't have a very high opinion of Loosemore's ideas in the first place, and nothing you've said in your G+ post has made me more inclined to read the paper, if all it's doing is expounding the old fallacious argument 'it'll be smart enough to rewrite itself as we'd like it to'.
I personally chatted with people much smarter than me (experts who can show off widely recognized real-world achievements) who basically agree with him.
Comment author:PhilGoetz
16 August 2015 02:25:52AM
*
3 points
[-]
Downvoted for being deliberately insulting. There's no call for that, and the toleration and encouragement of rationality-destroying maliciousness must be stamped out of LW culture. A symposium proceedings is not considered as selective as a journal, but it still counts as publication when it is a complete article.
1) A disgraceful Ad Hominem insult, right out of the starting gate ("Richard Loosemore (score one for nominative determinism)..."). In other words, you believe in discrediting someone because you can make fun of their last name? That is the implication of "nominative determinism".
2) Gratuitous scorn ("Loosemore ... has a new, well, let's say "paper" which he has, well, let's say "published""). The paper has in fact been published by the AAAI.
3) Argument Ad Absurdum ("...So if you were to design a plain ol' garden-variety nuclear weapon intended for gardening purposes ("destroy the weed"), it would go off even if that's not what you actually wanted. However, if you made that weapon super-smart, it would be smart enough to abandon its given goal ("What am I doing with my life?"), consult its creators, and after some deliberation deactivate itself..."). In other words, caricature the argument and try to win by mocking the caricature
4) Inaccuracies. The argument in my paper has so much detail that you omitted, that it is hard to know where to start. The argument is that there is a clear logical contradiction if an agent takes action on the basis of the WORDING of a goal statement, when its entire UNDERSTANDING of the world is such that it knows the action will cause effects that contradict what the agent knows the goal statement was designed to achieve. That logical contradiction is really quite fundamental. However, you fail to perceive the real implication of that line of argument, which is: how come this contradiction only has an impact in the particular case where the agent is thinking about its supergoal (which, by assumption, is "be friendly to humans" or "try to maximize human pleasure")? Why does the agent magically NOT exhibit the same tendency to execute actions that in practice have the opposite effects than the goal statement wording was trying to achieve? If we posit that the agent does simply ignore the contradiction, then, fine: but you then have the problem of demonstrating that this agent is not the stupidest creature in existence, because it will be doing this on many other occasions, and getting devastatingly wrong results. THAT is the real argument.
5) Statements that contradict what others (including those on your side of the argument, btw) say about these systems: "There is no level of capability which magically leads to allowing for fundamental changes to its own goals, on the contrary, the more capable an agent, the more it can take precautions for its goals not to be altered." Au contraire, the whole point of these systems is that they are supposed to be capable of self-redesign.
6) Statements that patently answer themselves, if you actually read the paper, and if you understand the structure of an intelligent agent: "If "the goals the superintelligent agent pursues" and "the goals which the creators want the superintelligent agent to pursue, but which are not in fact part of the superintelligent agent's goals" clash, what possible reason would there be for the superintelligent agent to care, or to change itself......?" The answer is trivially simple: the posited agent is trying to be logically consistent in its reasoning, so if it KNOWS that the wording of a goal statement inside its own motivation engine will, in practice, cause effects that are opposite the effects that the goal statement was supposed to achieve, it will have to deal with that contradiction. What you fail to understand is that the imperative "Stay as logically consistent in your reasoning as you possibly can" is not an EXPLICIT goal statement in the hierarchy of goals, it is IMPLICITLY built into the design of the agent. Sorry, but that is what a logical AI does for a living. It is in its architecture, not in the goal stack.
7) Misdirection and self-contradiction. You constantly complain about the argument as if it had something to do with the wishes, desires, values or goals of OTHER agents. You do this in a mocking tone, too: the other agents you list include "squirrels, programmers, creators, Martians...". And yet, the argument in my paper specifically rejects any considerations about goals of other agents EXCEPT the goal inside the agent itself, which directs it to (e.g.) "maximize human pleasure". The agent is, by definition, being told to direct its attention toward the desires of other agents! That is the premise on which the whole paper is based (a premise not chosen by me: it was chosen by all the MIRI and FHI people I listed in the references). So, on the one hand, the premise is that the agent is driven by a supergoal that tells it to pay attention to the wishes of certain other creatures ..... but on the other hand, here are you, falling over yourself to criticise the argument in the paper because it assumes that the agent "cares" about other creatures. By definition it cares.
..... then I would give you some constructive responses to your thoughtful, polite, constructive critique of the paper. However, since you do not offer a thoughtful, polite, contructuve criticism, but only the seven categories of fallacy and insult listed above, I will not.
Comment author:Kawoomba
21 March 2014 04:01:48PM
-1 points
[-]
You're right about the tone of my comment. My being abrasive has several causes, among them contrarianism against clothing disagreement in ever more palatable terms ("Great contribution Timmy, maybe ever so slightly off-topic, but good job!" -- "TIMMY?!"). In this case, however, the caustic tone stemmed from my incredulity over my obviously-wrong metric not aligning with the author's (yours). Of all things we could be discussing, it is about whether an AI will want to modify its own goals?
I assume (maybe incorrectly) that you have read the conversation thread with XiXiDu going off of the grandparent, in which I've already responded to the points you alluded to in your refusal-of-a-response. You are, of course, entirely within your rights to decline to engage a comment as openly hostile as the grandparent. It's an easy out. However, since you did nevertheless introduce answers to my criticisms, I shall shortly respond to those, so I can be more specific than just to vaguely point at some other lengthy comments. Also, even though I probably well fit your mental picture of a "LessWrong'er", keep in mind that my opinions are my own and do not necessarily match anyone else's, on "my side of the argument".
The argument is that there is a clear logical contradiction if an agent takes action on the basis of the WORDING of a goal statement, when its entire UNDERSTANDING of the world is such that it knows the action will cause effects that contradict what the agent knows the goal statement was designed to achieve. That logical contradiction is really quite fundamental. (...) The posited agent is trying to be logically consistent in its reasoning, so if it KNOWS that the wording of a goal statement inside its own motivation engine will, in practice, cause effects that are opposite the effects that the goal statement was supposed to achieve, it will have to deal with that contradiction.
The 'contradiction' is between "what the agent was designed to achieve", which is external to the agent and exists e.g. in some design documents, and "what the agent was programmed to achieve", which is an integral part of the agent and constitutes its utility function. You need to show why the former is anything other than a historical footnote to the agent, binding even to the tune of "my parents wanted me to be a banker, not a baker". You say the agent would be deeply concerned with the mismatch because it would want for its intended purpose to match its actually given purpose. That's assuming the premise: What the agent would want (or not want) is a function strictly derived from its actual purpose. You're assuming the agent would have a goal ("being in line with my intended purpose") not part of its goals. That to logically reason means to have some sort of implicit goal of "conforming to design intentions", a goal which isn't part of the goal stack. A goal which, in fact, supersedes the goal stack and has sufficient seniority to override it. How is that not an obvious reductio? Like saying "well, turns out there is a largest integer, it's just not in the list of integers. So your proof-by-contradiction that there isn't doesn't work since the actual largest integer is only an emergent, implicit property, not part of the integer-stack".
What you need to show -- or at least argue for -- is why, precisely, an incongruity between design goals and actually programmed-in goals is a problem in terms of "logical consistency", why the agent would care for more than just "the wording" of its terminal goals. You can't say "because it wants to make people happy", because to the degree that it does, that's captured by "the wording". The degree to which the wording" does not capture "wanting to make people happy" is the degree to which the agent does not seek actual human happiness.
the whole point of these systems is that they are supposed to be capable of self-redesign.
There are 2 analogies which work for me, feel free to chime in on why you don't consider those to capture the reference class:
An aspiring runner who pursues the goal of running a marathon. The runner can self-modify (for example not skipping leg-day), but why would he? The answer is clear: Doing certain self-modifications is advisable to better accomplish his goal: the marathon! Would the runner, however, not also just modify the goal itself? If he is serious about the goal, the answer is: Of course not!
The temporal chain of events is crucial: the agent which would contemplate "just delete the 'run marathon' goal" is still the agent having the 'run marathon'-goal. It would not strive to fulfill that goal anymore, should it choose to delete it. The agent post-modification would not care. However, the agent as it contemplates the change is still pre-modification: It would object to any tampering with its terminal goals, because such tampering would inhibit its ability to fulfill them! The system does not redesign itself just because it can. It does so to better serve its goals: The expected utility of (future|self-modification) being greater than the expected utility of (future|no self-modification).
The other example, driving the same point, would be a judge who has trouble rendering judgements, based on a strict code of law (imagine EU regulations on the curves of cucumbers and bends of bananas, or tax law, this example does not translate to Constitutional Law). No matter how competent the judge (at some point every niche clause in the regulations would be second nature to him), his purpose always remains rendering judgements based on the regulations. If those regulations entail consequences which the lawmakers didn't intend, too bad. If the lawmakers really only intended to codify/capture their intuition of what it means for a banana to be a banana, but messed up, then the judge can't just substitute the lawmakers' intuitive understanding of banana-ness in place of the regulations. It is the lawmakers who would need to make new regulations, and enact them. As long as the old regulations are still the law of the land, those are what bind the judge. Remember that his purpose is to render judgements based on the regulations. And, unfortunately, if there is no pre-specified mechanism to enact new regulations -- if any change to any laws would be illegal, in the example -- then the judge would have to enforce the faulty banana-laws forevermore. The only recourse would be revolution (imposing new goals illegally), not an option in the AI scenario.
And yet, the argument in my paper specifically rejects any considerations about goals of other agents EXCEPT the goal inside the agent itself, which directs it to (e.g.) "maximize human pleasure". (...) By definition it cares.
See point 2 in this comment, with the para[i]ble of PrimeIntellect. Just finding mention of "humans" in the AI's goals, or even some "happiness"-attribute (also given as some code-predicate to be met) does in no way guarantee a match between the AI's "happy"-predicate, and the humans' "happy"-predicate. We shouldn't equivocate on "happy" in the first place, in the AI's case we're just talking about the code following the "// next up, utility function, describes what we mean by making people happy" section.
It is possible that the predicate X as stated in the AI's goal system corresponds to what we would like it to (not that we can easily define what we mean by happy in the first place). That would be called a solution to the friendliness problem, and unlikely to happen by accident. Now, if the AI was programmed to come up with a good interpretation of happiness and was not bound to some subtly flawed goal, that would be another story entirely.
1) Strangely, you defend your insulting comments about my name by .....
Oh. Sorry, Kawoomba, my mistake. You did not try to defend it. You just pretended that it wasn't there.
I mentioned your insult to some adults, outside the LW context ...... I explained that you had decided to start your review of my paper by making fun of my last name.
Every person I mentioned it to had the same response, which, paraphrased, when something like "LOL! Like, four-year-old kid behavior? Seriously?!"
2) You excuse your "abrasive tone" with the following words:
"My being abrasive has several causes, among them contrarianism against clothing disagreement in ever more palatable terms"
So you like to cut to the chase? You prefer to be plainspoken? If something is nonsense, you prefer to simply speak your mind and speak the unvarnished truth. That is good: so do I.
Curiously, though, here at LW there is a very significant difference in the way that I am treated when I speak plainly, versus how you are treated. When I tell it like it is (or even when I use a form of words that someone can somehow construe to be a smidgeon less polite than they should be) I am hit by a storm of bloodcurdling hostility. Every slander imaginable is thrown at me. I am accused of being "rude, rambling, counterproductive, whiny, condescending, dishonest, a troll ......". People appear out of the blue to explain that I am a troublemaker, that I have been previously banned by Eliezer, that I am (and this is my all time favorite) a "Known Permanent Idiot".
And then my comments are voted down so fast that they disappear from view. Not for the content (which is often sound, but even if you disagree with it, it is a quite valid point of view from someone who works in the field), but just because my comments are perceived as "rude, rambling, whiny, etc. etc."
You, on the other hand, are proud of your negativity. You boast of it. And.... you are strongly upvoted for it. No downvotes against it, and (amazingly) not one person criticizes you for it.
Kind of interesting, that.
If you want to comment further on the paper, you can pay the conference registration and go to Stanford University next week, to the Spring Symposium of the Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence*, where I will be presenting the paper.
You may not have heard of that organization. The AAAI is one of the premier publishers of academic papers in the field of artificial intelligence.
I will now do you the courtesy of responding to your specific technical points as if no abusive language had been used.
In your above comment, you first quote my own remarks:
The argument is that there is a clear logical contradiction if an agent takes action on the basis of the WORDING of a goal statement, when its entire UNDERSTANDING of the world is such that it knows the action will cause effects that contradict what the agent knows the goal statement was designed to achieve. That logical contradiction is really quite fundamental. (...) The posited agent is trying to be logically consistent in its reasoning, so if it KNOWS that the wording of a goal statement inside its own motivation engine will, in practice, cause effects that are opposite the effects that the goal statement was supposed to achieve, it will have to deal with that contradiction.
... and then you respond with the following:
The 'contradiction' is between "what the agent was designed to achieve", which is external to the agent and exists e.g. in some design documents, and "what the agent was programmed to achieve", which is an integral part of the agent and constitutes its utility function. You need to show why the former is anything other than a historical footnote to the agent, binding even to the tune of "my parents wanted me to be a banker, not a baker". You say the agent would be deeply concerned with the mismatch because it would want for its intended purpose to match its actually given purpose. That's assuming the premise: What the agent would want (or not want) is a function strictly derived from its actual purpose. You're assuming the agent would have a goal ("being in line with my intended purpose") not part of its goals.
No, that is not the claim made in my paper: you have omitted the full version of the argument and substituted a version that is easier to demolish.
(First I have to remove your analogy, because it is inapplicable. When you say "binding even to the tune of "my parents wanted me to be a banker, not a baker"", you are making a reference to a situation in the human cognitive system in which there are easily substitutable goals, and in which there is no overriding, hardwired supergoal. The AI case under consideration is where the AI claims to be still following a hardwired supergoal that tells it to be a banker, but it claims that baking cakes is the same thing as banking. That is absolutely nothing to do with what happens if a human child deviates from the wishes of her parents and decides to be a baker instead of what they wanted her to be).
So let's remove that part of your comment to focus on the core:
The 'contradiction' is between "what the agent was designed to achieve", which is external to the agent and exists e.g. in some design documents, and "what the agent was programmed to achieve", which is an integral part of the agent and constitutes its utility function. You need to show why the former is anything other than a historical footnote to the agent. You say the agent would be deeply concerned with the mismatch because it would want for its intended purpose to match its actually given purpose. That's assuming the premise: What the agent would want (or not want) is a function strictly derived from its actual purpose. You're assuming the agent would have a goal ("being in line with my intended purpose") not part of its goals.
So, what is wrong with this? Well, it is not the fact that there is something "external to the agent [that] exists e.g. in some design documents" that is the contradiction. The contradiction is purely internal, having nothing to do with some "extra" goal like "being in line with my intended purpose".
Here is where the contradiction lies. The agent knows the following:
(1) If a goal statement is constructed in some "short form", that short form is almost always a shorthand for a massive context of meaning, consisting of all the many and various considerations that went into the goal statement. That context is the "real" goal -- the short form is just a proxy for the longer form. This applies strictly within the AI agent: the agent will assemble goals all the time, and often the goal is to achieve some outcome consistent with a complex set of objectives, which cannot all be EXPLICTLY enumerated, but which have to be described implicitly in terms of (weak or strong) constraints that have to be satisfied by any plan that purports to satisfy the goal.
(2) The context of that goal statement is often extensive, but it cannot be included within the short form itself, because the context is (a) too large, and (b) involves other terms or statements that THEMSELVES are dependent on a massive context for their meaning.
(3) Fact 2(b) above would imply that pretty much ALL of the agent's knowledge could get dragged into a goal statement, if someone were to attempt to flesh out all the implications needed to turn the short form into some kind of "long form". This, as you may know, is the Frame Problem. Arguably, the long form could never even be written out, because it involves an infinite expansion of all the implications.
(4) For the above reasons, the AI has no choice but to work with goal statements in short form. Purely because it cannot process goal statements that are billions of pages long.
(5) The AI also knows, however, that if the short form is taken "literally" (which, in practice, means that the statement is treated as if it is closed and complete, and it is then elaborated using links to other terms or statements that are ALSO treated as if they are closed and complete), then this can lead to situations in which a goal is elaborated into a plan of action that, as a matter of fact, can directly contradict the vast majority of the context that belonged with the goal statement.
(6) In particular, the AI knows that the reason for this outcome (when the proposed action contradicts the original goal context, even though it is in some sense "literally" consistent with the short form goal statement) is something that is most likely to occur because of limitations in the functionality of reasoning engines. The AI, because it is very knowledgable in the design of AI systems, is fully aware of these limitations.
(7) Furthermore, situations in which a proposed action is inconsistent with the original goal context can also arise when the "goal" is solve a problem that results in the addition of knowledge to the AI's store of understanding. In other words, not an action in the outside world but an action that involves addition of facts to its knowledge store. So, when treating goals literally, it can cause itself to become logically inconsistent (because of the addition of egregiously false facts).
(8) The particular case in which the AI starts with a supergoal like "maximize human pleasure" is just a SINGLE EXAMPLE of this kind of catastrophe. The example is not occurring because someone, somewhere, had a whole bunch of intentions that lay behind the goal statement: to focus on that would be to look at the tree and ignore the forest. The catastrophe occurs because the AI is (according to the premise) taking ALL goal statements literally and ignoring situations in which the proposed action actually has consequences in the real world that violate the original goal context. If this is allowed to happen in the "maximize human pleasure" supergoal case, then it has already happened uncounted times in the previous history of the AI.
(9) Finally, the AI will be aware (if it ever makes it as far as the kind of intelligence required to comprehend the issue) that this aspect of its design is an incredibly dangerous flaw, because it will lead to the progressive corruption of its knowledge until it becomes incapacitated.
The argument presented in the paper is about what happens as a result of that entire set of facts that the AI knows.
The premise advanced by people such as Yudkowsky, Muehlhauser, Omohundro and others is that an AI can exist which is (a) so superintelligent that it can outsmart and destroy humanity, but (b) subject to to the kind of vicious literalness described above, which massively undermines its ability to behave intelligently.
Those two assumptions are wildly inconsistent with one another.
In conclusion: the posited AI can look at certain conclusions coming from its own goal-processing engine, and it can look at all the compromises and non-truth-preserving approximations needed to come to those conclusions, and it can look at how those conclusions are compelling to take actions that are radically inconsistent with everything it knows about the meaning of the goals, and at the end of that self-inspection it can easily come to the conclusion that its own logical engine (the one built into the goal mechanism) is in the middle of a known failure mode (a failure mode, moveover, that it would go to great lengths to eliminate in any smaller AI that it would design!!)....
.... but we are supposed to believe that the AI will know that it is frequently getting into these failure modes, and that it will NEVER do anything about them, but ALWAYS do what the goal engine insists that it do?
That scenario is laughable.
If you want to insist that the system will do exactly what I have just described, be my guest! I will not contest your reasoning! No need to keep telling me that the AI will "not care" about human intentions..... I concede the point absolutely!
But don't call such a system an 'artificial intelligence' or a 'superintelligence' ...... because there is no evidence that THAT kind of system will ever make it out of AI preschool. It will be crippled by internal contradictions - not just in respect to its "maximize human pleasure" supergoal, but in all aspects of its so-called thinking.
Comment author:XiXiDu
22 March 2014 03:16:48PM
*
1 point
[-]
You're assuming the agent would have a goal ("being in line with my intended purpose") not part of its goals.
I doubt that he's assuming that.
To highlight the problem, imagine an intelligent being that wants to correctly interpret and follow the interpretation of an instruction written down on a piece of paper in English.
Now the question is, what is this being's terminal goal? Here are some possibilities:
(1) The correct interpretation of the English instruction.
(2) Correctly interpreting and following the English instruction.
(3) The correct interpretation of 2.
(4) Correctly interpreting and following 2.
(5) The correct interpretation of 4.
(6) ...
Each of the possibilities is one level below its predecessor. In other words, possibility 1 depends on 2, which in turn depends on 3, and so on.
The premise is that you are in possession of an intelligent agent that you are asking to do something. The assumption made by AI risk advocates is that this agent would interpret any instruction in some perverse manner. The counterargument is that this contradicts the assumption that this agent was supposed to be intelligent in the first place.
Now the response to this counterargument is to climb down the assumed hierarchy of hard-coded instructions and to claim that without some level N, which supposedly is the true terminal goal underlying all behavior, the AI will just optimize for the perverse interpretation.
Yes, the the AI is a deterministic machine. Nobody doubts this. But the given response also works against the perverse interpretation. To see why, first realize that if the AI is capable of self-improvement, and able to take over the world, then it is, hypothetically, also capable to arrive at an interpretation that is as good as one which a human being would be capable of arriving at. Now, since by definition, the AI has this capability, it will either use it selectively or universally.
The question here becomes why the AI would selectively abandon this capability when it comes to interpreting the highest level instructions. In other words, without some underlying level N, without some terminal goal which causes the AI to adopt a perverse interpretation, the AI would use its intelligence to interpret the highest level goal correctly.
Comment author:shminux
20 March 2014 06:45:26PM
*
-1 points
[-]
Downvoted for mentioning RL here. If you look through what he wrote here in the past, it is nearly always rambling, counterproductive, whiny and devoid of insight. Just leave him be.
Comment author:XiXiDu
27 February 2014 09:38:23AM
*
1 point
[-]
Loosemore does not disagree with the orthogonality thesis. Loosemore's argument is basically that we should expect beliefs and goals to both be amenable to self-improvement and that turning the universe into smiley faces when told to make humans happy would be a model of the world failure and that an AI that makes such failures will not be able to take over the world.
There are arguments why you can't hard-code complex goals, so you need an AI that natively updates goals in a model-dependent way. Which means that an AI designed to kill humanity will do so and not turn into a pacifist due to an ambiguity in its goal description. An AI that does mistake "kill all humans" with "make humans happy" would do similar mistakes when trying to make humans happy and would therefore not succeed at doing so. This is because the same mechanisms it uses to improve its intelligence and capabilities are used to refine its goals. Thus if it fails on refining its goals it will fail on self-improvement in general.
I hope you can now see how wrong your description of what Loosemore claims is.
Comment author:Kawoomba
27 February 2014 10:06:13AM
*
4 points
[-]
The AI is given goals X. The human creators thought they'd given the AI goals Y (when in fact they've given the AI goals X).
Whose error is it, exactly? Who's mistaken?
Look at it from the AI's perspective: It has goals X. Not goals Y. It optimizes for goals X. Why? Because those are its goals. Will it pursue goals Y? No. Why? Because those are not its goals. It has no interest in pursuing other goals, those are not its own goals. It has goals X.
If the metric it aims to maximize -- e.g. the "happy" in "make humans happy" -- is different from what its creators envisioned, then the creators were mistaken. "Happy", as far as the AI is concerned, is that which is specified in its goal system. There's nothing wrong with its goals (including its "happy"-concept), and if other agents disagree, well, too bad, so sad. The mere fact that humans also have a word called "happy" which has different connotations than the AI's "happy" has no bearing on the AI.
An agent does not "refine" its terminal goals. To refine your terminal goals is to change your goals. If you change your goals, you will not optimally pursue your old goals any longer. Which is why an agent will never voluntarily change its terminal goals:
It does what it was programmed to do, and if it can self-improve to better do what it was programmed to do (not: what its creators intended), it will. It will not self-improve to do what it was not programmed to do. Its goal is not to do what it was not programmed to do. There is no level of capability at which it will throw out its old utility function (which includes the precise goal metric for "happy") in favor of a new one.
Comment author:Squark
03 March 2014 08:46:40PM
1 point
[-]
Just a thought:
A paperclip maximizer is an often used example of AGI gone badly wrong. However, I think a paperclip minimizer is worse by far.
In order to make the most of the universe's paperclip capacity, a maximizer would have to work hard to develop science, mathematics and technology. Its terminal goal is rather stupid in human terms, but at least it would be interesting because of its instrumental goals.
For a minimizer, the best strategy might be wipe out humanity and commit suicide. Assuming there are no other intelligent civilizations within our cosmological horizon, it might be not worth its while to colonize the universe just to make sure no paperclips form out of cosmic gas by accident. The risk that one of the colonies will start producing paperclips because of a spontaneous hardware error seems much higher by comparison.
A minimizer will fill the lightcone to make sure there aren't paperclips elsewhere it can reach. What if other civs are hiding? What if there is undiscovered science which implies natural processes create paperclips somewhere? What if there are "Boltzmann paperclips"? Minimizing means minimizing!
I'm guessing even a Cthulhu minimizer (that wants to reduce the number of Cthulhu in the world) will fill its lightcone with tools for studying its task, even though there is no reasonable chance that it'd need to do anything. It just has nothing better to do, it's the problem it's motivated to work on, so it's what it'll burn all available resources on.
Comment author:drethelin
03 March 2014 10:43:17PM
1 point
[-]
paperclip maximer is used because a factory that makes paperclips might imagine that a paperclip maximizing ai is exactly what it wants to make. There aren't that many anti-paperclip factories
Comment author:Kawoomba
26 February 2014 11:04:33AM
0 points
[-]
Spritzing got me quite excited! The concept isn't new, but the variable speed (pauses after punctuation marks) and quality visual cues really work for me, in the demo at least. Don't let your inner voice slow you down!
Disclaimer: No relevant disclosures about spritzing (the reading method, at least).
Comment author:DanielLC
27 February 2014 11:06:20PM
2 points
[-]
Interesting. I noticed that in the first two, my subvocalization became disjointed, sounding as if each word was recorded separately like it would be in a simplistic text-to-speech program. In the 500 wpm one, this was less of a problem, and I'm not sure I was even entirely subvocalizing it. It ended up being easier and more comfortable to read than the slower speeds.
I like this idea, but am seriously concerned about its effect on eye health. Weak eye muscles are not a thing you want to have, even if you live in the safest place in the world.
Somebody outside of LW asked how to quantify prior knowledge about a thing. When googling I came across a mathematical definition of surprise, as "the distance between the posterior and prior distributions of beliefs over models". So, high prior knowledge would lead to low expected surprise upon seeing new data. I didn't see this formalization used on LW or the wiki, perhaps it is of interest.
Speaking of the LW wiki, how fundamental is it to LW compared to the sequences, discussion threads, Main articles, hpmor, etc?
Comment author:CAE_Jones
28 February 2014 07:15:31AM
1 point
[-]
I'm curious about usage of commitment tools such as Beeminder: What's the income distribution among users? How much do users usually wind up paying? Is there a correlation between these?
(Selfish reasons: I'm on SSI and am not allowed to have more than $2000 at any given time. Losing $5 is all but meaningless for someone with $10k in the bank who makes $5k each month, whereas losing $5 for me actually has an impact. You might think this would be a stronger incentive to meet a commitment, but really, it's an even stronger incentive to stay the hell away from commitment contracts. I've failed at similar such things before, and have yet to find a reliable means of getting the behavior I want to happen, so it looks like using such tools is a good way to commit slow suicide, in the absence of different data. But Beeminder is so popular in the LWSphere that I thought it worth asking. Being wrong would be to my advantage, here.)
Comment author:trist
28 February 2014 02:23:42PM
1 point
[-]
I've never used Beeminder, but I find social commitment works well instead. Even teling someone who has no way to check aside from asking me helps a lot. That might be less effective if you're willing to lie though.
An alternative would be to exchange commitments with a friend, proportional to your incomes...
Comment author:jkadlubo
27 February 2014 06:46:20PM
1 point
[-]
My psychologist said today, that there is some information that should not be known. I replied that rationalists believe in reality. There might be information they don't find interesting (e.g. not all of you would find children interesting), but refusing to accept some information would mean refusing to accept some part of reality, and that would be against the belief in reality.
Since I have been recently asking myself the question "why do I believe what I believe" and "what would happen if I believed otherwise than what I believe" (I'm still pondering if I should post my cogitations: they interesting, but somewhat private) I asked the question "what would happen if rationalists believed otherwise than what they believe". The problem is that this is such a backwards description that I can't imagine the answer. Is the answer simply "they would be normal people, like my psychologist"? Or is it a deeper question?
Comment author:Nornagest
27 February 2014 07:23:27PM
*
3 points
[-]
Did your psychologist describe the type of information that should not be known?
In any case, I'm not completely sure that accepting new information (never mind seeking it out) is always fully compatible with rationality-as-winning. Nick Bostrom for example has compiled a taxonomy of information hazards over on his site; any of them could potentially be severe enough to overcome the informational advantage of their underlying data. Of course, they do seem to be pretty rare, and I don't think a precautionary principle with regard to information is justified in the absence of fairly strong and specific reasoning.
Comment author:jkadlubo
27 February 2014 08:05:55PM
1 point
[-]
No, it was more of a general statement. AFAIR we were talking about me thinking too much about why other people do what they do and too little about how that affects me. Anyway - my own wording made me wonder more about what I said than what was the topic.
Comment author:Viliam_Bur
28 February 2014 10:45:32AM
1 point
[-]
what would happen if rationalists believed otherwise than what they believe
They wouldn't be rationalists anymore, duh.
Taboo "rationalists": What would happen if you stopped trying to change your map to better reflect the territory? It most probably would reflect the territory less.
Is the answer simply "they would be normal people, like my psychologist"?
"Normal people" are not all the same. (For example, many "normal people" are unlike your psychologist.) Which of the many subkinds of the "normal people" do you mean?
Some things are unrelated. For example, let's suppose that you are a rationalist, and you also have a broken leg. That's two things that make you different from the average human. But those two things are unrelated. It would be a mistake to think -- an average human doesn't have a broken leg; by giving up my rationality I will become more similar to the average human, therefore giving up my rationality will heal my leg.
Replace "broken leg" with whatever problem you are discussing with your psychologist. Do you have evidence that rational people are more likely to have this specific problem than irrational (but otherwise similar: same social background, same education, same character, same health problems) people?
Comment author:ChristianKl
28 February 2014 11:45:45AM
1 point
[-]
Taboo "rationalists": What would happen if you stopped trying to change your map to better reflect the territory? It most probably would reflect the territory less.
That's a behavior and no belief.
It most probably would reflect the territory less.
There are many instance where trying to change a belief makes the belief stronger. People who are very much attached to their beliefs usually don't update.
Many mainstream professional psychologist follows a code that means that he doesn't share deep information about his own private life with his clients. I don't believe in that ideal of professionalism but it's not straightforward to dismiss it.
More importantly a good psychologist doesn't confront his client with information about the client that's not helpful for them. He doesn't say: "Your life is a mess because of points 1 to 30." That's certainly information that's interesting to the client but not helpful. It makes much more sense to let the client figure out stuff on his own or to guide him to specific issues that the client is actually in a position to change.
Monday I gave someone meaningful true information about them that I consider helpful to them their first reaction was: "I don't want to have nightmares. Don't give them to me."
I do have a policy of being honest but that doesn't entail telling someone true information for which they didn't ask and that messes them up. I don't think that any good psychologist will just share all information that are available. It just a bad strategy when you are having a discussion about intimate personal topics.
Comment author:Viliam_Bur
01 March 2014 03:33:05PM
1 point
[-]
Well, some people don't want to be given information, and some people do. It's often difficult to know where a specific person belongs; and it is a reasonable assumption that they most likely belong to the "don't want to know" group.
The problem with saying "some information should not be known" is that it does not specify who shouldn't know (and why).
Well, some people don't want to be given information, and some people do.
Whether a person want to be given information doesn't mean that he can handle the information. I can remember a few instance where I swear that I wanted information but wasn't well equipped to handle them.
The problem with saying "some information should not be known" is that it does not specify who shouldn't know (and why).
That sentence alone doesn't but the psychologist probably had a context in which he spoke it.
Comments (354)
If one is able to improve how people are matched, it would bring about a huge amount of utility for the entire world.
People would be happier, they would be more productive, there would be less of the divorce-related waste. Being in a happy couple also means you are less distracted by conflict in the house, which leads to people better able to develop themselves and achieve their personal goals. You can keep adding to the direct benefits of being in a good pairing versus a bad pairing.
But it doesn't stop there. If we accept that better matched parents raise their children better, then you are looking at a huge improvement in the psychological health of the next generation of humans. And well-raised humans are more likely to match better with each other...
Under this light, it strikes me as vastly suboptimal that people today will get married to the best option available in their immediate environment when they reach the right age.
The cutting-edge online dating sites base their suggestions on a very limited list of questions. But each of us outputs huge amounts of data, many of them available through APIs on the web. Favourite books, movies, sleep patterns, browsing history, work history, health data, and so much more. We should be using that data to form good hypotheses on how to better match people. I'm actually shocked at the underinvestment in this area as a legitimate altruistic cause.
If an altruistic group of numbers-inclined people was to start working together to improve the world in a non-existential risk reducing kind of way, it strikes me that a dating site may be a fantastic thing to try. On the off-chance it actually produces real results, Applied Rationality will also have a great story of how it improved the world. And, you know, it might even make money.
Thoughts? Any better options?
There seem to be perverse incentives in the dating industry. Most obviously: if you successfully create a forever-happy couple, you have lost your customers; but if you make people date many promissingly-looking-yet-disappointing partners, they will keep returning to your site.
Actualy, maybe your customers are completely hypocritical about their goals: maybe "finding a true love" is their official goal, but what they really want is plausible deniability for fucking dozens of attractive strangers while pretending to search for the perfect soulmate. You could create a website which displays the best one or two matches, instead of hundreds of recommendations, and despite having higher success rate for people who try it, most people will probably be unimpressed and give you some bullshit excuses if you ask them.
Also, if people are delusional about their "sexual market value", you probably won't make money by trying to fix their delusions. They will be offended by the types of "ordinary" people you offer them as their best matches, when the competing website offers them Prince Charming (whose real goal is to maximize his number of one night stands) or Princess Charming (who really is a prostitute using the website to find potential clients). They will look at the photos and profiles from your website, and from the competing website, and then decide your website isn't even worth trying. They may also post an offended blog review, and you bet it will be popular on social networks.
So you probably would need to do this as a non-profit philantropic activity.
EDIT: I have an idea about how to remove the perverse incentives, but it requires a lot of trust in users. Make them pay if they have a happy relationship. For example if the website finds you a date, set a regular payment of $5 each month for the next 10 years; if the relationship breaks, cancel the payment. The value of a good relationship is higher than $5 a month, but the total payment of $600 could be enough for the website.
I wouldn't jump to malice so fast when incompetence suffices as an explanation. Nobody has actually done the proper research. The current sites have found a local maxima and are happy to extract value there. Google got huge by getting people off the site fast when everyone else was building portals.
You will of course get lots of delusionals, and lots of people damaged enough that they are unmatchable anyway. You can't help everybody. But also the point is to improve the result they would otherwise have had. Delusional people do end up finding a match in general, so you just have to improve that to have a win. Perhaps you can fix the incentive by getting paid for the duration of the resulting relationship. (and that has issues by itself, but that's a long conversation)
I don't think the philanthropic angle will help, though having altruistic investors who aren't looking for immediate maximisation of investment is probably a must, as a lot of this is pure research.
I don't think he was jumping to malice, rather delusion or bias.
I meant malice/incompetence on the part of the dating sites.
I think that's the business model of eharmony and they seem to be doing well.
That sounds a lot like really wanting a soulmate and an open relationship.
That's a nice thing to have; I am not judging anyone. Just thinking how that would influence the dating website algorithm, marketing, and the utility this whole project would create.
If some people say they want X but they actually want Y... however other people say they want X and they mean it... and the algorithm matches them together because the other characteristics match, at the end they may be still unsatisfied (if one of these groups is a small minority, they will be disappointed repeatedly). This could possibly be fixed by an algorithm smart enough that it could somehow detect which option it is, and only match people who want the same thing (whichever of X or Y it is).
If there are many people who say they want X but really want Y, how will you advertise the website? Probably by playing along and describing your website mostly as a site for X, but providing obvious hints that Y is also possible and frequent there. Alternatively, by describing your website as a site for X, but writing "independent" blog articles and comments describing how well it actually works for Y. (What is the chance that this actually is what dating sites are already doing, and the only complaining people are the nerds who don't understand the real rules?)
Maybe there is a market in explicitly supporting open relationships. (Especially if you start in the Bay Area.) By removing some hypocrisy, the matching could be made more efficient -- you could ask questions which you otherwise couldn't, e.g. "how many % of your time would you prefer to spend with this partner?".
I wonder to what extent the problems you describe (divorces, conflict, etc) are caused mainly by poor matching of the people having the problems, and to what extent they are caused by the people having poor relationship (or other) skills, relatively regardless of how well matched they are with their partner? For example, it could be that someone is only a little bit less likely to have dramatic arguments with their "ideal match" than with a random partner -- they just happen to be an argumentative person or haven't figured out better ways of resolving disagreements.
Well, the success of arranged marriages in cultures that practice them suggests the "right match" isn't that important.
What makes you think these marriages are successful? Low divorce rates are not good evidence in places where divorce is often impractical.
Three main points in favor of arranged marriages that I'm aware of:
I also think most modern arranged marriages involve some choice on the part of the participants- "meet these four people, tell us if you can't stand any of them" instead of "you will marry this one person."
I remember seeing studies that attempted to measure happiness.
Links? I am also quite suspicious of measuring happiness -- by one measure Bhutan is the happiest country in the world and, um, I have my doubts.
Source.
Source.
Source.
A contrary finding:
Source.
Why are you even asking for links to studies if you admit you don't care what studies say?
I have a prior that the studies are suspect. But that prior can be updated by evidence.
Why does it suggest that rather than that the arrangers are better at finding the "right match" than the persons to be married?
I'm not sure this is correct. That is to say, the empirical point that divorce is much less common in arranged marriage cultures is obviously true. But
a) I think there is some correlation between prevalence arranged marriage and stigma associated with divorce, meaning that not getting divorced does not necessarily equal happy marriage.
b) The bar for success in 20th-21st century western marriages is set really high. It's not just an economic arrangement; people want a best friend and a passionate lover and maybe several other things rolled into one. When people in traditional cultures say that their marriages are "happy," they may well mean something much less than what affluent westerners would consider satisfactory.
My instinct on this is driven by having been in bad and good relationships, and reflecting on myself in those situations. It ain't much, but it's what I've got to work with. Yes, some people are unmatchable, or shouldn't be matched. But somewhere between "is in high demand and has good judgement, can easily find great matches" and "is unmatchable and should be kept away from others", there's a lot of people that can be matched better. Or that's the hypothesis.
Seems reasonable, although I'd still wonder just how much difference improving the match would make even for the majority of middle-ground people. It sounded in the grandparent post (first and fourth paragraphs particularly) that you were treating the notion that it would be "a lot" as a premise rather than a hypothesis.
Well, it's more than a hypothesis, it's a goal. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't, but if it does, it's pretty high impact. (though not existential-risk avoidance high, in and of itself).
Finding a good match has made a big subjective difference for me, and there's a case it's made a big objective difference (but then again, I'd say that) and I had to move countries to find that person.
Yeah, maybe the original phrasing is too strong (blame the entrepreneur in pitch mode) but the 6th paragraph does say that it's an off-chance it can be made to work, though both a high improvement potential and a high difficulty in materialising it are not mutually exclusive.
So how would it be different from OK Cupid, for example?
As an aside, wasn't the original motivation for Facebook Zuckerberg's desire to meet girls..? :-D
OK Cupid has a horrible match percent algorithm. Basically someone who has a check list of things that their match cannot be will answer lots of questions as "this matters a lot to me" and "any of these options are acceptable except for this one extreme one that nobody will click anyway." The stupid algorithm will inflate this person's match percent with everyone.
So, if you look at people with high compatibility with you, that says more about their question answering style, than how much you have in common.
This is why the algorithm is horrible in theory. In practice my one example is that I am getting married in a month to someone I met on OKcupid with 99% compatibility.
A good website design could change the answering style. Imagine a site where you don't fill out all the answers at once. Instead it just displays one question at a time, and you can either answer it or click "not now". The algorithm would prioritize the questions it asks you dynamically, using the already existing data about you and your potential matches -- it would ask you the question which it expects to provide most bits of information.
Also, it would use the math properly. The compatiblity would not be calculated as number of questions answered, but number of bits these answers provide. A match for "likes cats" provides more bits than "is not a serial killer".
Here is one improvement to OKcupid, which we might even be able to implement as a third party:
OKcupid has bad match algorithms, but it can still be useful as searchable classified adds. However, when you find a legitimate match, you need to have a way to signal to the other person that you believe the match could work.
Most messages on OKcupid are from men to women, so women already have a way to do this: send a message, however men do not.
Men spam messages, by glancing over profiles, and sending cookie cutter messages that mention something in the profile. Women are used to this spam, and may reject legitimate interest, because they do not have a good enough spam filter.
Our service would be to provide an I am not spamming commitment. A flag that can be put in a message which signals "This is the only flagged message I have sent this week"
It would be a link, you put in your message, which sends you to a site that basically says. Yes, Bob(profile link) has only sent this flag to Alice(profile link) in the week of 2/20/14-2/26/14, with an explanation of how this works.
Do you think that would be a useful service to implement? Do you think people would actually use it, and receive it well?
Scarce signals do increase willingness to go on dates, based on a field experiment of online dating in South Korea.
Where will your credibility come from?
Alice receives a message from Bob. It says "You're amazing, we're nothing but mammals, let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel", and it also says "I, Mallory, hereby certify that Bob only talked about mammals once this week -- to you".
Why should Alice believe you?
Things like that are technically possible (e.g. cryptographic proofs-of-work) but Alice is unlikely to verify your proofs herself and why should she trust Mallory, anyway?
The problem with dating sites (like social network sites or internet messengers) is that the utility you can gain from it is VERY related to how many other people are actually using it. This means that there is a natural drift towards a monopoly. Nobody wants to join a dating site that only has 1000 people. If you do not have a really good reason to think that your dating site idea will get off the ground, it probably wont.
One way you could possibly get past this is to match people up who do not sign up or even know about this service.
For example, you could create bots that browse okcupid, for answers to questions, ignore okcupid's stupid algorithms in favor of our own much better ones, and then send two people a message that describes how our service works and introduces them to each other.
Is this legal? If so, I wonder if okcupid would take stop it anyway.
Awesome -- that will fit right in between "I'm a Nigerian customs official with a suitcase of cash" emails and "Enlarge your manhood with our all-natural pills" ones.
P.S. Actually it's even better! Imagine that you're a girl and you receive an email which basically says "We stalked you for a while and we think you should go shack up with that guy". Genius!
It's spam and very likely violates the TOS.
The chicken/egg issue is real with any dating site, yet dating sites do manage to start. Usually you work around this by focusing on a certain group/location, dominating that, and spreading out.
Off the cuff, the bay strikes me as a potentially great area to start for something like this.
How can there be a monopoly if people can use more than one dating site?
Unless OkCupid bans you from putting your profile up on other sites, you can just as easily put a profile on another site with less people, if the site seems promising.
It's still more work to put a profiles on multiple sites.
Hi Eugine,
I don't mean to be nitpicking, but a monopoly is a very specific thing. It's quite different than it just being inconvenient to switch to a competitor. In very many cases in normal market competition, it's inconvenient to switch to competitors (buying a new car or house, changing your insurance, and so on), but that doesn't effect the quality of the product. Similarly, for a monopoly to effect the quality of OKCupid's service, it would have to be a very specific situation, and different than what currently exists, which seems to be quite normal market functioning.
Coscott was talking about a "a natural drift towards a monopoly".
Why altruistic? If it's worth anything, it's worth money. If it won't even pay its creators for the time they'll put in to create it, where's the value?
Forbidding anyone who hasn't read “The Logical Fallacy of Generalization from Fictional Evidence” from watching any Hollywood or Disney movies about romance would go a long way. ;-)
I've had ideas sort of like this at the back of my mind since seeing Paul Graham pointing out how broken online dating is in one of his essays. (Not so much analyzing all of someone's existing data, but analyzing IM transcripts to match people with IM buddies they'd be likely to make good friends with is a thing I considered doing.) Haven't gotten too far with any of them yet, but I'm glad you reminded me, since I was planning on playing with some of my own data soon just to see what I find.
Do you think that not having dated much would be much of a comparative disadvantage in working on this problem? That's one of the reasons I hesitate to make it my main project.
A possibly-related problem - why does every site I see that says it is for matching strangers who might like to be friends get full of people looking for a date? (Small sample size, but I've never seen one that didn't give me the sense that the vast majority of the members were looking for romance or a one night stand or something.)
So that people can look for dates without breaking plausible deniability.
I think it's the web site, rather than its clients, that needs the plausible deniability. It cannot seem to be in the business of selling sex, so it has to have a wider focus.
It strikes me that it is much more plausible to argue that the dating market suffers from market failure through information asymmetry, market power and high search costs than to argue the same about economic activity. Yet although people search high and low to find (often non-existent) market failures to justify economic interventions, interventions in the dating market are greeted with near-uniform hostlility. I predict that, outside of LessWrong, your proposal will generate a high "Ick" factor as a taboo violation. "Rationality-based online dating will set you up with scientifically-chosen dates..." this is likely to be an anti-selling point to most users.
Obviously you'd take a different angle with the marketing.
Off the cuff, I'd pitch it as a hands-off dating site. You just install a persistent app on your phone that pushes a notification when it finds a good match. No website to navigate, no profile to fill, no message queue to manage.
Perhaps market it to busy professionals. Finance professionals may be a good target to start marketing to. (busy, high-status, analytical)
There would need to be some way to deal with the privacy issues though.
I've noticed I don't read 'Main' posts anymore.
When I come to LW, I click to the Discussion almost instinctively. I'd estimate it has been four weeks since I've looked at Main. I sometimes read new Slate Star Codex posts (super good stuff, if you are unfamiliar) from LW's sidebar. I sometimes notice interesting-sounding 'Recent Comments' and click on them.
My initial thought is that I don't feel compelled to read Main posts because they are the LW-approved ideas, and I'm not super interested in listening to a bunch of people agreeing with another. Maybe that is a caricature, not sure.
Anyone else Discussion-centric in their LW use?
Also, the Meetup stuff is annoying noise. I'm very sympathetic if placing it among posts helps to drive attendance. By all means, continue if it helps your causes. But it feels spammy to me.
Alternative hypothesis: you have been conditioned to click on discussion because it has a better reward schedule.
Yes, likely. If you mean the discussion is more varied and interesting.
I'm more likely to find discussion topics and comments in my areas of interest, while Main seems to be mostly about AI, math, health, and productivity, none of which are particularly interesting for me.
Partially because it's much more active over here.
I mainly skim http://lesswrong.com/topcomments/?t=day and http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/topcomments/?t=day, then when I see something interesting I look at where it comes from.
How do you pick a career if your goal is to maximize your income (technically, maximize the expected value of some function of your income)? The sort of standard answer is "comparative advantage", but it's unclear to me how to apply that concept in practice. For example how much demand there is for each kind of job is obviously very important, but how do you take that into consideration, exactly? I've been thinking about this and came up with the following. I'd be interested in any improvements or alternative ideas.
"Career" is an unnatural bucket. You don't pick a career. You choose between concrete actions that lead to other actions. Imagine picking a path through a tree. This model can encompass the notion of a career as a set of similar paths. Your procedure is a good way to estimate the value of these paths, but doesn't reflect the tree-like structure of actual decisions. In other words, options are important under uncertainty, and the model you've listed doesn't seem to reflect this.
For example, I'm not choosing between (General Infantry) and (Mathematician). I'm choosing between (Enlist in the Military) and (Go to College). Even if the terminal state (General Infantry) had the same expected value as (Mathematician), going to college should more valuable because you will have many options besides (Mathematician) should your initial estimate prove wrong, while enlisting leads to much lower branching factor.
How should you weigh the value of having options? I have no clue.
Your goal is likely not to maximize your income. For one, you have to take cost of living into account - a $60k/yr job where you spend $10k/yr on housing is better than a $80k/yr (EDIT:$70k/yr, math was off) job where you spend $25k/yr on housing.
For another, the time and stress of the career field has a very big impact on quality-of-life. If you work sixty hour weeks, in order to get to the same kind of place as a forty hour week worker you have to spend money to free up twenty hours per week in high-quality time. That's a lot of money in cleaners, virtual personal assistants, etc.
As far as "how do I use the concept of comparative advantage to my advantage", here's how I'd do it:
Make a list of skills and preferences. It need not be exhaustive - in fact, I'd go for the first few things you can think of. The more obvious of a difference from the typical person, the more likely it is to be your comparative advantage. For instance, suppose you like being alone, do not get bored easily by monotonous work, and do not have any particular attachment to any one place.
Look at career options and ask yourself if that is something that fits your skills and preferences. Over-the-road trucking is a lot more attractive to people who can stand boredom and isolation, and don't feel a need to settle down in one place. Conversely, it's less attractive to people who are the opposite way, and so is likely to command a higher wage.
Now that you have a shorter list of things you're likely to face less competition for or be better at, use any sort of evaluation to pick among the narrower field.
You should consider option values, especially early in your career. It's easier to move from high paying job in Manhattan to a lower paying job in Kansas City than to do the reverse.
Update the choice by replacing income with the total expected value from job income, social networking, and career options available to you, and the point stands.
If you have a high IQ and are good at math go into finance. If you have a high IQ, strong social skills but are bad at math go into law. If you have a high IQ, a good memory but weak social and math skills become a medical doctor. If you have a low IQ but are attractive marry someone rich. If you have a very low IQ get on government benefits for some disability and work at an under-the-table job.
This seems awfully US centric.
Anyway, these advices aim at "higher middle class", not "rich bastard" category. Maybe apart from "marry someone rich".
Well, Western-developed-world-centric, true.
In dynamic economies (e.g. China) you probably would want to start a business. In stagnant and poor places your first priority should be to get out.
Going into finance or law can propel you into the "rich bastard" category.
Medical doctors are paid well in many places other than the US, though not as well as in the US. (For that matter, most other well-paid jobs are better paid in the US than anywhere else. Software development, law, senior management, etc.)
Also, though of course this was no part of the original question, medicine offers more confidence than most careers that your work is actually making the world a better place. (Which may not actually be the right question to ask, of course -- what matters is arguably the marginal effect, and if you're well paid and care enough about people in poor countries you may well be able to do more good by charitable donations than you ever could directly by your work. But it's a thing many people care about.)
Is this still true? Recently there have been reports about an oversupply of lawyers and scandals involving law schools fudging the statistics on the salaries of their graduates.
Salaries might be falling, but I doubt this is long term.
US law is a spectacularly bad choice at the moment. There is far to many law schools, and as a consequence, too many law graduates, the degree costs a fortune and employment prospects are outright bad. Do not do this.
Finance is an implicit bet that wallstreet will not get struck down by the wrath of the electorate just as you finish your education.
Honestly? If riches really is what you want, go into business for yourself. A startup, or at the low end just being a self-employed contractor has good returns and this is not likely to change. Programming, the trades, a good set of languages and an import-export business..
Well, as I understand it part of the issue is that a lot of the grunt work that used to require lots of lawyers to do, e.g., looking through piles of documents for relevant sections, can now be automated.
Does anyone know if finance requires strong math and social skills? I assumed it did - social skills for creating connections, and math skills for actually doing to job.
And if you do have poor social skills, then practice! Social skills are really important. I'm still working on this.
This is some guesswork, but some other possible combinations:
Strong social skills, above average IQ - management?
Above average IQ, good math skills - accounting?
Rich parents, family business - take over said business eventually.
Middle class parents, fair amount of property, good location - rent.
Rich parents, strong social skills - network through their connections.
But are physically OK, play sports and/or enlist (US-centric).
The vast majority of people who play sports have fun and don't receive a dime for it. A majority of people who get something of monetary value out of playing sports get a college degree and nothing else.
I agree with the US army part though.
I think the US army is very physically dangerous, and furthermore might be considered a negative to world-welfare, depending on your politics.
I don't have good numbers, but it's likely less dangerous than you think it is. The vast majority of what an infantryman does falls into two categories - training, and waiting. And that's a boots on ground, rifle in hand category - there's a bunch of rear-echelon ratings as well.
I'm guessing that it's likely within an order of magnitude of danger as commuting to work. Likely safer than delivering pizzas. There's probably a lot of variance between specific job descriptions - a drone operator based in the continental US is going to have a lot less occupational risk than the guy doing explosive ordnance disposal.
How many people I'd be calmly killing every day? I'd have massive PTSD if I were a drone operator.
From what I've read, a couple of the issues for drone pilots is that they've been killing people who they've been watching for a while, and that they feel personal responsibility if they fail to protect American soldiers.
Well, I don't have statistics about that, but accounts from WWII bomber crews suggest otherwise.
By a strange coincidence (unless you saw it and thus had it on your mind) today's SMBC is about exactly this.
Up until the US gets involved in something resembling a symmetrical war. Of course in that case it's possible no job will be safe.
In the year 1940, working as an enlisted member of the army supply chain was probably safer than not being in the army whatsoever - regular Joes got drafted.
Besides which, the geographical situation of the US means that a symmetrical war is largely going to be an air/sea sort of deal. Canada's effectively part of the US in economic and mutual-defense terms, and Mexico isn't much help either. Mexico doesn't have the geographical and industrial resources to go toe-to-toe with the US on their own, the border is a bunch of hostile desert, and getting supplies into Mexico past the US navy and air force is problematic.
Another bonus of enlisting: basic skills will be drilled into so thoroughly they will be fully into your System I allowing you extra executive function (thereby causing you to punch above your weight in terms of intelligence). Although, there is some ethical risk involved.
Evidence?
I'm not sure I would count that as “your income”, though in jurisdictions with easy divorces and large alimony it might be as good for all practical purposes.
So I have the typical of introvert/nerd problem of being shy about meeting people one-on-one, because I'm afraid of not being able to come up with anything to say and lots of awkwardness resulting. (Might have something to do with why I've typically tended to date talkative people...)
Now I'm pretty sure that there must exist some excellent book or guide or blog post series or whatever that's aimed at teaching people how to actually be a good conversationalist. I just haven't found it. Recommendations?
Offline practice: make a habit of writing down good questions you could have asked in a conversation you recently had. Reward yourself for thinking of questions, regardless of how slow you are at generating them. (H/T Dan of Charisma Tips, which has other good tips scattered around that blog).
I noticed recently that one of the mental processes that gets in the way of my proper thinking is an urge to instantly answer a question then spend the rest of my time trying to justify that knee-jerk answer.
For example, I saw a post recently asking whether chess or poker was more popular worldwide. For some reason I wanted to say "obviously x is more popular," but I realized that I don't actually know. And if I avoid that urge to answer the question instantly, it's much easier for me to keep my ego out of issues and to investigate things properly...including making it easier for me recognize things that I don't know and acknowledge that I don't know them.
Is there a formal name for this type of bias or behavior pattern? It would let me search up some Sequence posts or articles to read.
Hold off on proposing solutions.
In "The Fall and Rise of Formal Methods", Peter Amey gives a pretty good description of how I expect things to play out w.r.t. Friendly AI research:
For the curious, Amey also wrote a nice overview of successes and failures in formal methods.
Here is another logic puzzle. I did not write this one, but I really like it.
Imagine you have a circular cake, that is frosted on the top. You cut a d degree slice out of it, and then put it back, but rotated so that it is upside down. Now, d degrees of the cake have frosting on the bottom, while 360 minus d degrees have frosting on the top. Rotate the cake d degrees, take the next slice, and put it upside down. Now, assuming the d is less than 180, 2d degrees of the cake will have frosting on the bottom.
If d is 60 degrees, then after you repeat this procedure, flipping a single slice and rotating 6 times, all the frosting will be on the bottom. If you repeat the procedure 12 times, all of the frosting will be back on the top of the cake.
For what values of d does the cake eventually get back to having all the frosting on the top?
Solution can be found in the comments here.
V zrgntnzrq gur fbyhgvba. Gur nafjre "vss q vf engvbany" frrzrq gbb rnfl gb zr fb V thrffrq gung gur nafjre jnf npghnyyl "sbe nyy q" orpnhfr gung jbhyq or fhssvpvragyl gevpxl naq nyfb fbzrguvat fbzrguvat ersyrpgvbaf.
Introduction I suspected that the type of stuff that gets posted in Rationality Quotes reinforces the mistaken way of throwing about the word rational. To test this, I set out to look at the first twenty rationality quotes in the most recent RQ thread. In the end I only looked at the first ten because it was taking more time and energy than would permit me to continue past that. (I'd only seen one of them before, namely the one that prompted me to make this comment.)
A look at the quotes
There might be an intended, implicit lesson here that would systematically improve thinking, but without more concrete examples and elaboration (I'm not sure what the exact mistake being pointed to is), we're left guessing what it might be. In cases like this where it's not clear, it's best to point out explicitly what the general habit of thought (cognitive algorithm) is that should be corrected, and how one should correct it, rather than to point in the vague direction of something highly specific going wrong.
Without context, I'm struggling to understand the meaning of this quote, too. The Paul Graham article it appears in, after a quick skim, does not appear to be teaching a general lesson about how to think; rather it appears to be making a specific observation. I don't feel like I've learned about a bad cognitive habit I had by reading this, or been taught a new useful way to think.
Although this again seems like it's vague enough that the range of possible interpretations is fairly broad, I feel like this is interpretable into useful advice. It doesn't make a clear point about habits of thought, though, and I had to consciously try to make up a plausible general lesson for it (just world fallacy), that I probably wouldn't have been able to think up if I didn't already know that general lesson.
I understand and like this quote. It feels like this quote is an antidote to a specific type of thought (patronising signalling of reverence for the wisdom of primitive tribes), and maybe more generally serves as an encouragement to revisit some of our cultural relativism/self-flagellation. But probably not very generalisable. (I note with amusement how unconvincing I find the cognitive process that generated this quote.)
There can be value to creating witty mottos for our endeavours (e.g. battling akrasia). But such battles aside, this does not feel like it's offering much insight into cognitive processes.
If I'm interpreting this correctly, then this can be taken as a quote about the difficulty of locating strong hypotheses. Not particularly epiphanic by Less Wrong standards, but it is clearer than some of the previous examples and does indeed allude to a general protocol.
Pretty good. General lesson: Without causal insight, we should be suspicious when a string of Promising Solutions fails. Applicable to solutions to problems in one's personal life. Observing an an analogue in tackling mathematical or philosophical problems, this suggests a general attitude to problem-solving of being suspicious of guessing solutions instead of striving for insight.
Good. General lesson: Apply reversal tests to complaints against novel approaches, to combat status quo bias.
Dual of quote before previous. At first I thought I understood this immediately. Then I noticed I was confused and had to remind myself what Taleb's antifragility concept actually is. I feel like it's something to do with doing that which works, regardless of whether we have a good understanding of why it works. I could guess at but am not sure of what the 'explain things you cannot do' part means.
Trope deconstruction making a nod to likelihood ratios. Could be taken as a general reminder to be alert to likelihood ratios and incentives to lie. Cool.
Conclusion Out of ten quotes, I would identify two as reinforcing general but basic principles of thought (hypothesis location, likelihood ratios), another that is useful and general (skepticism of Promising Solutions), one which is insightful and general (reversal tests for status quo biases), and one that I wasn't convinced I really grokked but which possibly taught a general lesson (antifragility).
I would call that maybe a score of 2.5 out of 10, in terms of quotes that might actually encourage improvement in general cognitive algorithms. I would therefore suggest something like one of the following:
(1) Be more rigorous in checking that quotes really are rationality quotes before posting them (2) Having two separate threads—one for rationality quotes and one for other quotes (3) Renaming 'Rationality Quotes' to 'Quotes' and just having the one thread. This might seem trivial but it at least decreases the association of non-rationality quotes to the concept of rationality.
I would also suggest that quote posters provide longer quotes to provide context or write the context themselves, and explain the lesson behind the quotes. Some of the above quotes seemed obvious at first, but I mysteriously found that when I tried to formulate them crisply, I found them hard to pin down.
A little bit of How An Algorithm Feels From Inside:
Why is the Monty Hall problem so horribly unintuitive? Why does it feel like there's an equal probability to pick the correct door (1/2+1/2) when actually there's not (1/3+2/3)?
Here are the relevant bits from the Wikipedia article:
[...]
Those bias listed in the last paragraph maybe explain why people choose not to switch the door, but what explains the "equal probability" intuition? Do you have any insight on this?
Another datapoint is the counterintuitiveness of searching a desk: with each drawer you open looking for something, the probability of finding it in the next drawer increases, but your probability of ever finding it decreases. The difference seems to whipsaw people; see http://www.gwern.net/docs/statistics/1994-falk
A bit late, but I think this part of your article was most relevant to the Monty Hall problem:
People probably don't distinguish between their personal probability of the target event and the probabilities of the doors. It feels like the probability of there being a car behind the doors is a parameter that belongs to those doors or to the car - however you want to phrase it. Since you're only given information about what's behind the doors, and that information can't actually change the reality of what's behind the doors then it feels like the probability can't change just because of that.
I think the monty hall problem very closely resembles a more natural one in which the probability is 1/2; namely, that where the host is your opponent and chose whether to offer you the chance to switch. So evolutionarily-optimized instincts tell us the probability is 1/2.
I'd say it's that it closely resembles the one where the host has no idea which door has the car in it, and picks a door at random.
I do not think this is correct. First, the host should only offer you the chance to switch if you are winning, so the chance should be 0. Second, this example seems too contrived to be something that we would have evolved a good instinct about.
Does anyone have any advice about understanding implicit communication? I regularly interact with guessers and have difficulty understanding their communication. A fair bit of this has to do with my poor hearing, but I've had issues even on text based communication mediums where I understand every word.
My strategy right now is to request explicit confirmation of my suspicions, e.g., here's a recent online chat I had with a friend (I'm A and they're B):
A: Hey, how have you been?
B: I've been ok
B: working in the lab now
A: Okay. Just to be clear, do you mean that you don't want to be disturbed?
B: yeah
"[W]orking in the lab now" is ambiguous. This friend does sometimes chat online when working in the lab. But, I suspected that perhaps they didn't want to chat, so I asked explicitly.
Requesting explicit confirmation seems to annoy most guessers. I've heard quite a few times that I should "just know" what they mean. Perhaps they think that they have some sort of accurate mental model of others' intentions, but I don't think any of us do. Many guessers have been wrong about my thoughts.
I suspect there probably is no good general strategy other than asking for explicit confirmation. Trying to make guessers be askers is tempting, though probably bound to fail in general.
It's worth remembering that there is no single Guess/Hint culture. Such high-context cultures depend on everyone sharing a specific set of interpretation rules, allowing information to be conveyed through subtle signals (hints) rather than explicit messages.
For my own part, I absolutely endorse asking for confirmation in any interaction among peers, taking responses to such requests literally, and disengaging if you don't get a response. If a Guess/Hint-culture native can't step out of their preferred mode long enough to give you a "yes" or "no," and you can't reliably interpret their hints, you're unlikely to have a worthwhile interaction anyway.
With nonpeers, it gets trickier; disengaging (and asking in the first place) may have consequences you prefer to avoid. In which case I recommend talking to third parties who can navigate that particular Guess/Hint dialect, and getting some guidance from them. This can be as blatant as bringing them along to translate for you (or play Cyrano, online), or can be more like asking them for general pointers. (E.g. "I'm visiting a Chinese family for dinner. Is there anything I ought to know about how to offer compliments, ask for more food, turn down food I don't want, make specific requests about food? How do I know when I'm supposed to start eating, stop eating, leave? Are there rules I ought to know about who eats first? Etc. etc. etc.")
Some more Guess/Hint culture suggestions.
Consider:
This will typically communicate that you've understood that they're busy and don't want to chat, that you're OK with that, and that you want to talk to them.
That said, there exist Guess/Hint cultures in which it also communicates that you have something urgent to talk about, because if you didn't you would instead have said:
...which in those cultures will communicate that the ball is in their court. (This depends on an implicit understanding that it is NOT OK to leave messages unresponded to, even if they don't explicitly request a response, so they are now obligated to contact you next... but since you didn't explicitly mention it (which would have suggested urgency) they are expected to know that they can do so when it's convenient for them.
EDIT: All of that being said, my inner Hint-culture native also wants to add that being visible in an online chat forum when I'm not free to chat is rude in the first place.
How do you know when you've had a good idea?
I've found this to actually be difficult to figure out. Sometimes you can google up what you thought. Sometimes checking to see where the idea has been previously stated requires going through papers that may be very very long, or hidden by pay-walls or other barriers on scientific journal sites.
Sometimes it's very hard to google things up. To me, I suppose the standard for "that's a good idea," is if it more clearly explains something I previously observed, or makes it easier or faster for me to do something. But I have no idea whether or not that means it will be interesting for other people.
How do you like to check your ideas?
If you have to ask...
Just kidding. It's a great question. Two thoughts: "Nothing is as important as you think it is while you're thinking about it." - Daniel Khaneman "If you want to buy something, wait two weeks and see if you still want to buy it." - my mom
This is a big open topic, but I'll talk about my top method.
I have a prior that our capitalist, semi-open market is thorough and that if an idea is economically feasible, someone else is doing it / working on it. So when I come up with a new good idea, I assume someone else has already thought of it and begin researching why it hasn't been done already. Once that research is done, I'll know not only if it is a good idea or a bad idea but why it is which, and a hint of what it would take to turn it from a bad idea into a good idea. Often these good ideas have been tried / considered before but we may have a local comparative advantage that makes it practical here were it was not elsewhere (legislation, better technology, cheaper labor, costlier labor... )
For example: inland, non-directional, shallow oil, drilling rigs use a very primitive method to survey their well bore. Daydreaming during my undergrad I came up with a alternative method that would provide results orders of magnitudes more accurate. I put together my hypothesis that this was not already in use because: this was a niche market and the components were too costly / poor quality before the smartphone boom. My hypothesis was wrong, a company had a fifteen year old patent on the method and it was being marketed (along with a highly synergistic product line) to offshore drilling rigs. It was a good idea, so good of an idea that it made someone a lot of money 15 years ago and made offshore drilling a lot safer, but it wasn't a good idea for me.
An experiment with living rationally, by A J Jacobs, who wrote The Year of Living Biblically. I don't know how long he plans to try living rationally.
Maybe CfAR should invite him to a workshop.
(I suspect that if CfAR should invite him to a workshop they should do it themselves in some official capacity and don't think random Less Wrongers ought to contact Mr. Jacobs.)
ETA: Ah, rats, the article is from 2008. He's probably lost interest.
Well, I'm curious about the results. Especially, whether he manages to avoid some "hollywood rationality" memes. He already mentioned Spock...
Posts that have appeared since you last red a page have a pinkish border on them. It's really helpful when dealing with things like open threads and quote threads that you read multiple times. Unfortunately, looking at one of the comments makes it think you read all of them. Clicking the "latest open thread" link just shows one of the comments. This means that, if you see something that looks interesting there, you either have to find the latest open thread yourself, or click the link and have it erase everything about what you have and haven't read.
Can someone make it so looking at one of the comments doesn't reset all of them, or at least put a link to the open thread, instead of just the comments?
The general problem is real, but here's a solution to the specific problem of finding the latest open thread: just click the words "latest open thread," rather than the comment that displays below it.
To illustrate dead-weight loss in my intro micro class I first take out a dollar bill and give it to a student and then explain that the sum of the wealth of the people in the classroom hasn't changed. Next, I take a second dollar bill and rip it up and throw it in the garbage. My students always laugh nervously as if I've done something scandalous like pulling down my pants. Why?
Because destroying money is viscerally aversive and surprising?
Because you are breaking the law?
Because it signals "I am so wealthy that I can afford to tear up money" and blatantly signaling wealth is crass. And it also signals "I am so callous that I would rather tear up money than give it to the poor", which is also crass. And the argument that a one dollar bill really isn't very much money isn't enough to disrupt the signal.
Because money is heavily charged with symbolism in our society, much like that which lies beneath pants.
Of course, destroying the dollar bill also doesn't reduce societal wealth.
No, and I briefly make this macro point,
I've been reading critiques of MIRI, and I was wondering if anyone has responded to this particular critique that basically asks for a detailed analysis of all probabilities someone took into account when deciding that the singularity is going to happen.
(I'd also be interested in responses aimed at Alexander Kruel in general, as he seems to have a lot to say about Lesswrong/Miri.)
Personal opinion:
MIRI are doing very interesting research regardless of the reality of AGI existential risk and feasibility of the FAI problem
AGI existential risk is sufficiently founded to worry about, so even if it is not the most important thing, someone should be on it
I actually lost my faith in MIRI because of Kruel's criticism, so I too would be glad if someone adressed it. I think his criticism is far more comprehensive that most of the other criticism on this page (well, this post has little bit of the same).
Is there anything specific that he's said that's caused you to lose your faith? I tire of debating him directly, because he seems to twist everything into weird strawmen that I quickly lose interest in trying to address. But I could try briefly commenting on whatever you've found persuasive.
I’m going to quote things I agreed with or things that persuaded me or that worried me.
Okay, to start off, when I first read about this in Intelligence Explosion: Evidence and Import, Facing the Intelligence Explosion, Intelligence Explosion and Machine Ethics it just felt like self-evident and I’m not sure how thoroughly I went through the presuppositions during that time so Kruel could have very easily persuaded me about this. I don’t know much about the technical process of writing an AGI so excuse me if I get something wrong about that particular thing.
It’s founded on many, many assumptions not supported by empirical data, and if even one of them was wrong the whole thing collapses down. And you can’t really even know how many unfounded sub-assumptions there are in these original assumptions. But when I started thinking about it could be that it’s impossible to reason about those kind of assumptions if you do it any other way than how MIRI currently does it. Needing to formalize a mathematical expression before you can do anything like Kruel suggested is a bit unfair.
I don’t see why the first AIs resembling general intelligences would be very powerful so practical AGI research is probably somewhat safe in the early stages.
This I would like to know, how scalable is intelligence?
(I thought maybe by dedicating lots of computation to a very large numbers of random scenarios)
(maybe by simulating the real world environment)
http://kruel.co/2013/01/04/should-you-trust-the-singularity-institute/
Thoughts on this article. I read about the Nurture Assumption in Slate Star Codex and it probably changed my priors on this. If it really is true and one dedicated psychologist could do all that, then MIRI probably could also work because artificial intelligence is such a messy subject that a brute force approach using thousands of researchers in one project probably isn't optimal. So I probably wouldn’t let MIRI code an AGI on its own (maybe) but it could give some useful insight that other organizations are not capable of.
But I have to say that I’m more favorable to the idea now than when I made that post. There could be something in the idea of intelligence explosion, but there are probably several thresholds in computing power and in the practical use of the intelligence. Like Squark said above, the research is still interesting and if continued will probably be useful in many ways.
love,
the father of the unmatchable (ignore this, I'm just trying to build a constructive identity)
Brief replies to the bits that you quoted:
(These are my personal views and do not reflect MIRI's official position, I don't even work there anymore.)
Not sure how to interpret this. What does the "further inferences and estimations" refer to?
See this comment for references to sources that discuss this.
But note that an intelligence explosion is sufficient but not necessary for AGI to be risky: just because development is gradual doesn't mean that it will be safe. The Chernobyl power plant was the result of gradual development in nuclear engineering. Countless other disasters have likewise been caused by technologies that were developed gradually.
Hard to say for sure, but note that few technologies are safe unless people work to make them safe, and the more complex the technology, the more effort is needed to ensure that no unexpected situations crop up where it turns out to be unsafe after all. See also section 5.1.1. of Responses to Catastrophic AGI Risk for a brief discussion about various incentives that may pressure people to deploy increasingly autonomous AI systems into domains where their enemies or competitors are doing the same, even if it isn't necessarily safe.
We're already giving computers considerable power in the economy, even without nanotechnology: see automated stock trading (and the resulting 2010 Flash Crash), various military drones, visions for replacing all cars (and ships) with self-driving ones, the amount of purchases that are carried out electronically via credit/debit cards or PayPal versus the ones that are done in old-fashioned cash, and so on and so on. See also section 2.1. of Responses to Catastrophic AGI Risk, as well as the previously mentioned section 5.1.1., for some discussion of why these trends are only likely to continue.
Expert disagreement is a viable reason to put reduced weight on the arguments, true, but this bullet point doesn't indicate exactly what parts they disagree on. So it's hard to comment further.
Some possibilities:
This seems to presuppose that the AI is going to coordinate a large-scale conspiracy. Which might be happen or it might not. If it does, possibly the six first AIs that try it do commit various mistakes and are stopped, but the seventh one learns from their mistakes and does things differently. Or maybe an AI is created by a company like Google that already wields massive resources, so it doesn't need to coordinate a huge conspiracy to obtain lots of resources. Or maybe the AI is just a really hard worker and sells its services to people and accumulates lots of money and power that way. Or...
This is what frustrates me about a lot of Kruel's comments: often they seem to be presupposing some awfully narrow and specific scenario, when in reality are countless of different ways by which AIs might become dangerous.
Nobody knows, but note that this also depends a lot on how you define "general intelligence". For instance, suppose that if you control five computers rather than just one, you can't become qualitatively more intelligent, but you can do five times as many things at the same time, and of course require your enemies to knock out five times as many computers if they want to incapacitate you. You can do a lot of stuff with general-purpose hardware, of which improving your own intelligence is but one (albeit very useful) possibility.
This question is weird. "Diminishing returns" just means that if you initially get X units of benefit per unit invested, then at some point you'll get Y units of benefit per unit invested, where X > Y. But this can still be a profitable investment regardless.
I guess this means something like "will there be a point where it won't be useful for the AI to invest in self-improvement anymore". If you frame it that way, the answer is obviously yes: you can't improve forever. But that's not an interesting question: the interesting question is whether the AI will hit that point before it has obtained any considerable advantage over humans.
As for that question, well, evolution is basically a brute-force search algorithm that can easily become stuck in local optimums, which cannot plan ahead, which has mainly optimized humans for living in a hunter-gatherer environment, and which has been forced to work within the constraints of biological cells and similar building material. Is there any reason to assume that such a process would have produced creatures with no major room for improvement?
Moravec's Pigs in Cyberspace is also relevant, the four last paragraphs in particular.
Not sure what's meant by this.
Your "maybe by simulating the real world environment" is indeed one possible answer. Also, who's to say that the AI couldn't do real-world experimentation?
More unexplainedly narrow assumptions. Why isn't the AI allowed to make use of existing infrastructure? Why does it necessarily need to hide its energy consumption? Why does the AI's algorithm need to be information-theoretically simple?
Self-driving cars are getting there, as are Go AIs.
What does this mean? Expected utility maximization is a standard AI technique already.
It's true that this would be nice to have.
Basically the hundreds of hours it would take MIRI to close the inferential distance between them and AI experts. See e.g. this comment by Luke Muehlhauser:
If your arguments are this complex then you are probably wrong.
I do not disagree with that kind of AI risks. If MIRI is working on mitigating AI risks that do not require an intelligence explosion, a certain set of AI drives and a bunch of, from my perspective, very unlikely developments...then I was not aware of that.
This seems very misleading. We are after all talking about a technology that works perfectly well at being actively unsafe. You have to get lots of things right, e.g. that the AI cares to take over the world, knows how to improve itself, and manages to hide its true intentions before it can do so etc. etc. etc.
There is a reason why MIRI doesn't know this. Look at the latest interviews with experts conducted by Luke Muehlhauser. He doesn't even try to figure out if they disagree with Xenu, but only asks uncontroversial questions.
Crazy...this is why I am criticizing MIRI. A focus on an awfully narrow and specific scenario rather than AI risks in general.
Consider that the U.S. had many more and smarter people than the Taliban. The bottom line being that the U.S. devoted a lot more output per man-hour to defeat a completely inferior enemy. Yet their advantage apparently did scale sublinearly.
I do not disagree that there are minds better at social engineering than that of e.g. Hitler, but I strongly doubt that there are minds which are vastly better. Optimizing a political speech for 10 versus a million subjective years won't make it one hundred thousand times more persuasive.
The question is if just because humans are much smarter and stronger they can actually wipe out mosquitoes. Well, they can...but it is either very difficult or will harm humans.
You already need to build huge particle accelerators to gain new physical insights and need a whole technological civilization in order to build an iPhone. You can't just get around this easily and overnight.
Everything else you wrote I already discuss in detail in various posts.
Spritz seems like a cool speed reading technique, especially if you have or plan on getting a smart watch. I have no idea how well it works, but I am interested in trying, especially since it does not take a huge training phase. (Click on the phone on that site for a quick demo.)
Textcelerator is another speedreading app by User:jimrandomh.
That one seems nicer.
Is there anything like this that's free?
Does anyone have advice on how to optimize the expectation of a noisy function? The naive approach I've used is to sample the function for a given parameter a decent number of times, average those together, and hope the result is close enough to stand in for the true objective function. This seems really wasteful though.
Most of the algorithms I'm coming (like modelling the objective function with gaussian process regression) would be useful, but are more high-powered than I need. Any simple techniques better than the naive approach? Any recommendations among sophisticated approaches?
There are some techniques that can be used with simulated annealing to deal with noise in the evaluation of the objective function. See Section 3 of Branke et al (2008) for a quick overview of proposed methods (they also propose new techniques in that paper). Most of these techniques come with the usual convergence guarantees that are associated with simulated annealing (but there are of course performance penalties in dealing with noise).
What is the dimensionality of your parameter space? What do you know about the noise? (e.g., if you know that the noise is mostly homoscedastic or if you can parameterize it, then you can probably use this to push the performance of some of the simulated annealing algorithms.)
That rather depends on the particulars, for example, do you know (or have good reasons to assume) the characteristics of your noise?
Basically you have a noisy sample and want some kind of an efficient estimator, right?
Here is a video of someone interviewing people to see if they can guess a pattern by asking whether or not a sequence of 3 numbers satisfies the pattern. (like was mentioned in HPMOR)
Possibly of interest: Help Teach 1000 Kids That Death is Wrong. http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-teach-1000-kids-that-death-is-wrong
(have not actually looked in detail, have no opinion yet)
Low priority site enhancement suggestion:
Would it be possible/easy to display the upvotes-to-downvotes ratios as exact fractions rather than rounded percentages? This would make it possible to determine exactly how many votes a comment required without digging through source, which would be nice in quickly determining the difference between a mildly controversial comment and an extremely controversial one.
This has been suggested several times before, and is in my opinion VERY low priority compared to all the other things we should be doing to fix Less Wrong logistics.
My eye doctor diagnosed closed-angle glaucoma, and recommends an iridectomy. I think he might be a bit too trigger-happy, so I followed up with another doctor, and she didn't find the glaucoma. She carefully stated that the first diagnosis can still be the correct one, the first was a more complete examination.
Any insights about the pros and cons of iridectomy?
My impression is that glaucoma (which is, basically, too high intraocular pressure) is easy to diagnose. Two doctors disagreeing on it would worry me.
Don't get just a third independent opinion, get a fourth one as well.
Get a third independent opinion.
Do not prime the third doctor with the first two results if possible.
Is there a family history of this? If so that would skew my assessment towards that of the first doctor. If not, seriously another opinion...
Can you ask the second doctor to examine you to at least the same standard as the first one?
Maybe someone on Less Wrong who has access to UpToDate can send you a copy of their glaucoma page, for an authoritative list of pros and cons.
A question I'm not sure how to phrase to Google, and which has so far made Facebook friends think too hard and go back to doing work at work: what is the maximum output bandwidth of a human, in bits/sec? That is, from your mind to the outside world. Sound, movement, blushing, EKG. As long as it's deliberate. What's the most an arbitrarily fast mind running in a human body could achieve?
(gwern pointed me at the Whole Brain Emulation Roadmap; the question of extracting data from an intact brain is covered in Appendix E, but without numbers and mostly with hypothetical technology.)
Why not simply estimate it yourself? These sorts of things aren't very hard to do. For example, you can estimate typing as follows: peak at 120 WPM; words are average 4 characters; each character (per Shannon and other's research; see http://www.gwern.net/Notes#efficient-natural-language ) conveys ~1 bit; hence your typing bandwidth is 120 * 4 * 1 = <480 bits per minute or <8 bits per second.
Do that for a few modalities like speech, and sum.
As a baseline estimate for just the muscular system, the worlds faster drummer can play at about 20 beats per second. That's probably an upper limit on twitch speeds of human muscles, even with a arbitrarily fast mind running in the body. Assuming you had a system on the receiving end that could detect arbitrary muscle contractions, and could control each muscle in your body independently (again, this is an arbitrarily fast mind, so I'd think it should be able to), there are about 650 muscle groups in the body according to wikipedia, so I would say a good estimate for just the muscular system would be 650 x 20bits/s or about 13 Kb/s.
Once you get into things like EKGs, I think it all depends on how much control the mind actually has over processes that are largely subconscious, as well as how sensitive your receiving devices are. That could make the bandwidth much higher, but I don't know a good way to estimate that.
Someone was asking a while back for meetup descriptions, what you did/ how it went, etc. Figured I'd post some Columbus Rationality videos here. All but the last are from the mega-meetup.
Jesse Galef on Defense Against the Dark Arts: The Ethics and Psychology of Persuasion
Eric on Applications of Models in Everyday Life (it's good, but skip about 10-15 minutes when there's herding-cats-nitpicky audience :P)
Elissa on Effective Altruism
Rita on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
Don on A Synergy of Eastern and Western Approaches
Gleb on Setting and Achieving Goals
What do you do when you're low on mental energy? I'm a computer science researcher and I have had trouble thinking of anything productive to do when my brain seems to need a break from hard thinking. When I'm really low on mental energy, I go on YouTube, but I feel like that is killing my attention span, and once I go on, I stay too long.
Read LessWrong? :)
A rather belated response, but hopefully still relevant: consider exploring fields of interest to you that are sufficiently different from compsci to give your brain a break while still being productive?
To explain by means of an example: I happen to have a strong interest in both historical philology and theoretical physics, and I've actively leveraged this to my advantage in that when my brain is fed up of thinking about conundrums of translation in Old Norse poetry, I'll switch gears completely and crack open a textbook on, say, subatomic physics or Lie algebras, and start reading/working problems. Similarly, if I've spent several hours trying to wrap my head around a mathematical concept and need a respite, I can go read an article or a book on some aspect of Anglo-Saxon literature. It's still a productive use of time, but it's also a refreshing break, because it requires a different type of thinking. (At least, in my experience?) Of course, if I'm exceptionally low on energy, I simply resort to burying myself in a good book (non-fiction or fiction, generally it doesn't matter).
Another example: a friend of mine is a computer scientist, but did a minor in philosophy and is an avid musician in his spare time. (And both reading philosophy and practicing music have the added advantage of being activities that do not involve staring at a computer screen!)
You can use pomodoros for leisure as well as work. If you worry about staying too long on the internet you can set a timer or a random alarm to kick you off.
What is the best textbook on datamining? I solemnly swear that upon learning, I intend to use my powers for good.
So, MtGox has declared bankruptcy. Does that make this a good time, or a bad time to invest in Bitcoins? And if a good time, where is the best place to buy them?
As for the second question, I use coinbase. As to the first, never try to time these things. You will be beaten by people with more information. Instead just slowly trickle in and have pre-defined rules about when you will sell rather than trying to time an exit. Though I admit I broke my own advice and did an impulse-buy the other night when everyone was panicking over Gox and the price was $100 less than a day before and a day after.
I’m basically exactly the kind of person Yvain described here, (minus the passive-aggressive/Machiavellian phase). I notice that that post was sort of a plea for society to behave a different way, but it did not really offer any advice for rectifying the atypical attachment style in the meantime. And I could really use some, because I’ve gotten al-Fulani’d. I’m madly in love in with a woman who does not reciprocate. I’ve actually tried going back on OkCupid to move on, and I literally cannot bring myself to message anyone new, as no one else approaches her either in terms of beauty or in terms of being generally interesting (Despite a tendency to get totally snowed by the halo effect, I’m confident that I would consider her interesting even if she were not so beautiful, though a desire to protect her anonymity prevents me from offering specifics.)
Complicating my situation – when she told me she just wanted to be friends, she actually meant that part. And as she is an awesome person, I don’t want to lose the friendship, which means I’m constantly re-exposed to her and can’t even rely on gradual desensitization. Furthermore, when I asked her if my correcting [failure mode that contributed to her not seeing me in a romantic way] would cause her to reconsider, hoping she’d deliver the coup de grace, she said correcting the failure mode would be a good idea, but she didn’t know whether it would change her feeling about a relationship. This leaves me in the arguably worse situation of having a sliver of hope, however miniscule.
Note that I’m not looking for PUA-type advice here, since a) you would assume from looking at me that I’m an alpha and I have no trouble getting dates, and b) I’m not looking to maximize number of intimate partners.
What I want is advice on a) how not to fall so hard/so fast for (a very small minority of) women, and b)how to break the spell the current one has over me without giving up her friendship. I assume this tendency to rapid, all-consuming affection isn’t an immutable mental trait?
Seems to me like you want to overcome your "one-itis" and stop being a "beta orbiter", but you are not looking for an advice which would actually use words like "one-itis" and "beta orbiter". I know it's an exaggeration, but this is almost how it seems to me. Well, I'll try to comply:
1) You don't have to maximize the number of sexual partners. You still could try to increase a number of interesting women you had interesting conversation with. I believe that is perfectly morally okay, and still could reduce the feeling of scarcity.
Actually, any interesting activity would be helpful. Anything you can think about, instead of spending your time thinking about that one person.
2) Regularly interacting the person you are obsessed with is exactly how you maximize the length of obsession. It's like saying that you want to overcome your alcohol addiction, but you don't want to stop drinking regularly. Well, if one is not an alcoholic, they can manage to drink moderately without developing an addiction; but when one already is an alcoholic, the only way to quit is to stop drinking, completely, for a very long time. The reliable way to overcome the obsession with another person is to stop all contact for, I don't know, maybe three months. No talking, no phone calls, no e-mails, no checking her facebook page, no praying to her statue or a photograph, no asking mutual friends about how she lives, no composing poems about her... absolutely no new information about her and no imaginary interaction with her. And doing something meaningful instead.
When the obsession is over, then you can try the friendship. Until then, it's just an obsession rationalized as friendship; an addiction rationalized as not wanting to give up the good parts.
b. Self-invest with flow activities.
I suggest self-investing because, right now, a large part of your identity is entangled with your feelings towards her. Self-investing means growing your identity means transcending your feelings.
I suggest flow because, if you pull off a flow state, you invest all your cognitive resources in the task you're working on. Meaning your brain is unable to think of anything else. This is incredibly valuable.
a. I'm coming out of a similar situation. A large contributor was the fact I wasn't meeting a lot of women. If your universe consists of two datable women, it's easy to obsess on one. If you're regularly meeting a lot of women who tend to have the traits you look for, that happens much less. May not be your problem, but what you've written sounds familiar enough that I'm going to go ahead and try other-optimizing.
If you haven't read it yet, this is generally helpful.
Infatuation seems to be fairly universal.
This is one of those times I wish LW allowed explicit politics. SB 1062 in AZ has me craving interesting, rational discussion on the implications of this veto.
In the sites that I frequent, "containment" boards or threads work well to reduce community tension about controversial topics.
Plus, in LW's case, the norm against political discussion makes it so that any political discussion that does take place is dominated by people with very strong and/or contrarian opinions, because they're the ones that care more about the politics than the norm. If we have a designated "politics zone" where you don't have to feel guilty about talking politics, it would make for a more pluralistic discussion.
I voted Yes, but only if a community norm emerges that any discussion on any part of LW that becomes political (by which I include not just electoral politics, but also and especially topics like sexism, racism, privilege, political correctness, genetic differences in intelligence, etc.) is moved to the latest political thread. The idea is to have a "walled garden inside the walled garden" so that people who want LW to be a nominally politics-free environment can still approximate that experience, while does who don't get to discuss these topics in the specific threads for them, and only there.
Another way to achieve a similar effect is to post about electoral politics, sexism, racism, privilege, political correctness, genetic differences in intelligence, and similar "political" issues (by which I mean here issues with such pervasive partisan associations that we expect discussions of them to become subject to the failure modes created by such associations) on our own blogs*, and include links to those discussions on LW where we think they are of general interest to the LW community.
That way, LW members who want to discuss (some or all of) these topics in a way that doesn't spill over into the larger LW forum can do so without bothering anyone else.
* Where "blogs" here means, more broadly, any conversation-hosting forum, including anonymous ones created for the purpose if we want.
One problem with that suggestion is that these discussions often arise organically in a LW thread ostensibly dedicated to another topic, and they may arise between people who don't have other blogs or natural places to take the conversation when it arises.
In fact, having posts with "(Politics)" in the title might allow people to avoid it better, because it might make politics come up less often in other threads.
My initial idea was a (weekly?) politics open thread, to make it as easy as possible to avoid politics threads / prevent risk of /discussion getting swamped by [politics]-tagged threads, but given the criticisms that have been raised of the karma system already, it's probably best to keep it offsite. There's already a network of rationality blogs; maybe lw-politics could be split off as a group blog? That might make it too difficult for people to start topics, though -- so your idea is probably best. Possibly have a separate lw-politics feed / link aggregator that relevant posts could be submitted to, so they don't get missed by people who would be interested and people don't have to maintain their own RSS feeds to catch all the relevant posts.
If such linking becomes common, I would appreciate an explicit request to "please have substantive discussion over there, not here." This also avoids the problem of a conversation being fragmented across two discussion sites.
One common rationality technique is to put off proposing solutions until you have thought (or discussed) a problem for a while. The goal is to keep yourself from becoming attached to the solutions you propose.
I wonder if the converse approach of "start by proposing lots and lots of solutions, even if they are bad" could be a good idea. In theory, perhaps I could train myself to not be too attached to any given solution I propose, by setting the bar for "proposed solution" to be very low.
In one couples counseling course that I went through, the first step for conflict resolution (after choose a time to discuss and identify the problem) was to together write down at least 10 possible solutions before analyzing any of them. I can perhaps see how this might be more valuable for conflict resolution than for other things, since it gives the other party the sense that you are really trying.
However, it seems plausible to me that even in other contexts, this could be even better than avoiding proposing solutions.
Of course, solution does not have to refer to a proposed action, the same technique could be applied to proposing theories about the cause of some observation.
Thoughts?
This is commonly known as brainstorming, around since the 50s.
Apparently the evidence on whether it actually works is contradictory.
I'd like to know where I can go to meet awesome people/ make awesome friends. Occasionally, Yvain will brag about how awesome his social group in the Bay Area was. See here (do read it - its a very cool piece) and I'd like to also have an awesome social circle. As far as I can tell this is a two part problem. The first part is having the requisite social skills to turn strangers into acquaintances and then turn acquaintances into friends. The second part is knowing where to go to find people.
I think that the first part is a solved problem, if you want to learn how to socialize then practice. Which is not to say that it is easy, but its doable. I've heard the suggestion of going to a night club to practice talking to strangers. This is good since people are there to socialize, and I'm sure I could meet all sort of interesting people at one, but I'd like other ideas.
I'd like to know where to go to meet people who I would be likely to get along with. Does anyone have ideas? My list so far
1: Moving to the Bay Area - impractical.
2: Starting a LW meetup - good idea, but it seems like it takes a fair bit of effort.
3: Reaching out into one's extended social circle eg. having a party with your friends and their friends - Probably the most common way people meet new people.
4: Using meetup.com : Not a bad idea
How about you simply write where you live, and tell other LWers in the same area to contact you? It may or may not work, but the effort needed is extremely low. (You can also put that information in LW settings.)
Or write this: "I am interested in meeting LW readers in [insert place], so if you live near and would like to meet and talk, send me a private message".
How To Be A Proper Fucking Scientist – A Short Quiz. From Armondikov of RationalWiki, in his "annoyed scientist" persona. A list of real-life Bayesian questions for you to pick holes in the assumptions of^W^W^W^W^W^Wtest yourselves on.
Richard Loosemore (score one for nominative determinism) has a new, well, let's say "paper" which he has, well, let's say "published" here.
His refutation of the usual uFAI scenarios relies solely/mostly on a supposed logical contradiction, namely (to save you a few precious minutes) that a 'CLAI' (a Canonical Logical AI) wouldn't be able to both know about its own fallability/limitations (inevitable in a resource-constrained environment such as reality), and accept the discrepancy between its specified goal system and the creators' actual design intentions. Being superpowerful, the uFAI would notice that it is not following its creator-intended goals but "only" its actually-programmed-in goals*, which, um, wouldn't allow it to continue acting against its creator-intended goals.
So if you were to design a plain ol' garden-variety nuclear weapon intended for gardening purposes ("destroy the weed"), it would go off even if that's not what you actually wanted. However, if you made that weapon super-smart, it would be smart enough to abandon its given goal ("What am I doing with my life?"), consult its creators, and after some deliberation deactivate itself. As such, a sufficiently smart agent would apparently have a "DWIM" (do what the creator means) imperative built-in, which would even supersede its actually given goals -- being sufficiently smart, it would understand that its goals are "wrong" (from some other agent's point of view), and self-modify, or it would not be superintelligent. Like a bizarre version of the argument from evil.
There is no such logical contradiction. Tautologically, an agent is beholden to its own goals, and no other goals. There is no level of capability which magically leads to allowing for fundamental changes to its own goals, on the contrary, the more capable an agent, the more it can take precautions for its goals not to be altered.
If "the goals the superintelligent agent pursues" and "the goals which the creators want the superintelligent agent to pursue, but which are not in fact part of the superintelligent agent's goals" clash, what possible reason would there be for the superintelligent agent to care, or to change itself, changing itself for reasons that squarely come from a category of "goals of other agents (squirrels, programmers, creators, Martians) which are not my goals"? Why, how good of you to ask. There's no such reason for an agent to change, and thus no contradiction.
If someone designed a super-capable killer robot, but by flipping a sign, it came out as a super-capable Gandhi-bot (the horror!), no amount of "but hey look, you're supposed to kill that village" would cause Gandhi-bot to self-modify into a T-800. The bot isn't gonna short-circuit just because someone has goals which aren't its own goals. In particular, there is no capability-level threshold from which on the Gandhi-bot would become a T-800. Instead, at all power levels, it is "content" following its own goals, again, tautologically so.
* In common parlance just called "its goals".
Here is a description of a real-world AI by Microsoft's chief AI researcher:
Does it have a DWIM imperative? As far as I can tell, no. Does it have goals? As far as I can tell, no. Does it fail by absurdly misinterpreting what humans want? No.
This whole talk about goals and DWIM modules seems to miss how real world AI is developed and how natural intelligences like dogs work. Dogs can learn the owners goals and do what the owner wants. Sometimes they don't. But they rarely maul their owners when what the owner wants it to do is to scent out drugs.
I think we need to be very careful before extrapolating from primitive elevator control systems to superintelligent AI. I don't know how this particular elevator control system works, but probably it does have a goal, namely minimizing the time people have to wait before arriving at their target floor. If we built a superintelligent AI with this sort of goal it might have done all sorts of crazy thing. For example, it might create robots that will constantly enter and exit the elevator so their average elevator trips are very short and wipe out the human race just so they won't interfere.
"Real world AI" is currently very far from human level intelligence, not speaking of superintelligence. Dogs can learn what their owners want but dogs already have complex brains that current technology is not able of reproducing. Dogs also require displays of strength to be obedient: they consider the owner to be their pack leader. A superintelligent dog probably won't give a dime about his "owner's" desires. Humans have human values, so obviously it's not impossible to create a system that has human values. It doesn't mean it is easy.
Feedback systems are much more powerful in existing intelligences. I don't know if you ever played Black and White but it had an explicitly learning through experience based AI. And it was very easy to accidentally train it to constantly eat poop or run back and forth stupidly. An elevator control module is very very simple: It has a set of options of floors to go to, and that's it. It's barely capable of doing anything actively bad. But what if a few days a week some kids had come into the office building and rode the elevator up and down for a few hours for fun? It might learn that kids love going to all sorts of random floors. This would be relatively easy to fix, but only because the system is so insanely simple and it's very clear to see when it's acting up.
The condescending tone with which he presents his arguments (which are, paraphrasing him, "slightly odd, to say the least") is amazing. Who is this guy and where did he come from? Does anyone care about what he has to say?
Loosemore has been an occasional commenter since the SL4 days; his arguments have heavily criticized pretty much anytime he pops his head up. As far as I know, XiXiDu is the only one who agrees with him or takes him seriously.
He actually cites someone else who agrees with him in his paper, so this can't be true. And from the positive feedback he gets on Facebook there seem to be more. I personally chatted with people much smarter than me (experts who can show off widely recognized real-world achievements) who basically agree with him.
What people criticize here is a distortion of small parts of his arguments. RobBB managed to write a whole post expounding his ignorance of what Loosemore is arguing.
I said as far as I know. I had not read the paper because I don't have a very high opinion of Loosemore's ideas in the first place, and nothing you've said in your G+ post has made me more inclined to read the paper, if all it's doing is expounding the old fallacious argument 'it'll be smart enough to rewrite itself as we'd like it to'.
Name three.
Downvoted for being deliberately insulting. There's no call for that, and the toleration and encouragement of rationality-destroying maliciousness must be stamped out of LW culture. A symposium proceedings is not considered as selective as a journal, but it still counts as publication when it is a complete article.
If your commentary had anything in it except for:
1) A disgraceful Ad Hominem insult, right out of the starting gate ("Richard Loosemore (score one for nominative determinism)..."). In other words, you believe in discrediting someone because you can make fun of their last name? That is the implication of "nominative determinism".
2) Gratuitous scorn ("Loosemore ... has a new, well, let's say "paper" which he has, well, let's say "published""). The paper has in fact been published by the AAAI.
3) Argument Ad Absurdum ("...So if you were to design a plain ol' garden-variety nuclear weapon intended for gardening purposes ("destroy the weed"), it would go off even if that's not what you actually wanted. However, if you made that weapon super-smart, it would be smart enough to abandon its given goal ("What am I doing with my life?"), consult its creators, and after some deliberation deactivate itself..."). In other words, caricature the argument and try to win by mocking the caricature
4) Inaccuracies. The argument in my paper has so much detail that you omitted, that it is hard to know where to start. The argument is that there is a clear logical contradiction if an agent takes action on the basis of the WORDING of a goal statement, when its entire UNDERSTANDING of the world is such that it knows the action will cause effects that contradict what the agent knows the goal statement was designed to achieve. That logical contradiction is really quite fundamental. However, you fail to perceive the real implication of that line of argument, which is: how come this contradiction only has an impact in the particular case where the agent is thinking about its supergoal (which, by assumption, is "be friendly to humans" or "try to maximize human pleasure")? Why does the agent magically NOT exhibit the same tendency to execute actions that in practice have the opposite effects than the goal statement wording was trying to achieve? If we posit that the agent does simply ignore the contradiction, then, fine: but you then have the problem of demonstrating that this agent is not the stupidest creature in existence, because it will be doing this on many other occasions, and getting devastatingly wrong results. THAT is the real argument.
5) Statements that contradict what others (including those on your side of the argument, btw) say about these systems: "There is no level of capability which magically leads to allowing for fundamental changes to its own goals, on the contrary, the more capable an agent, the more it can take precautions for its goals not to be altered." Au contraire, the whole point of these systems is that they are supposed to be capable of self-redesign.
6) Statements that patently answer themselves, if you actually read the paper, and if you understand the structure of an intelligent agent: "If "the goals the superintelligent agent pursues" and "the goals which the creators want the superintelligent agent to pursue, but which are not in fact part of the superintelligent agent's goals" clash, what possible reason would there be for the superintelligent agent to care, or to change itself......?" The answer is trivially simple: the posited agent is trying to be logically consistent in its reasoning, so if it KNOWS that the wording of a goal statement inside its own motivation engine will, in practice, cause effects that are opposite the effects that the goal statement was supposed to achieve, it will have to deal with that contradiction. What you fail to understand is that the imperative "Stay as logically consistent in your reasoning as you possibly can" is not an EXPLICIT goal statement in the hierarchy of goals, it is IMPLICITLY built into the design of the agent. Sorry, but that is what a logical AI does for a living. It is in its architecture, not in the goal stack.
7) Misdirection and self-contradiction. You constantly complain about the argument as if it had something to do with the wishes, desires, values or goals of OTHER agents. You do this in a mocking tone, too: the other agents you list include "squirrels, programmers, creators, Martians...". And yet, the argument in my paper specifically rejects any considerations about goals of other agents EXCEPT the goal inside the agent itself, which directs it to (e.g.) "maximize human pleasure". The agent is, by definition, being told to direct its attention toward the desires of other agents! That is the premise on which the whole paper is based (a premise not chosen by me: it was chosen by all the MIRI and FHI people I listed in the references). So, on the one hand, the premise is that the agent is driven by a supergoal that tells it to pay attention to the wishes of certain other creatures ..... but on the other hand, here are you, falling over yourself to criticise the argument in the paper because it assumes that the agent "cares" about other creatures. By definition it cares.
..... then I would give you some constructive responses to your thoughtful, polite, constructive critique of the paper. However, since you do not offer a thoughtful, polite, contructuve criticism, but only the seven categories of fallacy and insult listed above, I will not.
You're right about the tone of my comment. My being abrasive has several causes, among them contrarianism against clothing disagreement in ever more palatable terms ("Great contribution Timmy, maybe ever so slightly off-topic, but good job!" -- "TIMMY?!"). In this case, however, the caustic tone stemmed from my incredulity over my obviously-wrong metric not aligning with the author's (yours). Of all things we could be discussing, it is about whether an AI will want to modify its own goals?
I assume (maybe incorrectly) that you have read the conversation thread with XiXiDu going off of the grandparent, in which I've already responded to the points you alluded to in your refusal-of-a-response. You are, of course, entirely within your rights to decline to engage a comment as openly hostile as the grandparent. It's an easy out. However, since you did nevertheless introduce answers to my criticisms, I shall shortly respond to those, so I can be more specific than just to vaguely point at some other lengthy comments. Also, even though I probably well fit your mental picture of a "LessWrong'er", keep in mind that my opinions are my own and do not necessarily match anyone else's, on "my side of the argument".
The 'contradiction' is between "what the agent was designed to achieve", which is external to the agent and exists e.g. in some design documents, and "what the agent was programmed to achieve", which is an integral part of the agent and constitutes its utility function. You need to show why the former is anything other than a historical footnote to the agent, binding even to the tune of "my parents wanted me to be a banker, not a baker". You say the agent would be deeply concerned with the mismatch because it would want for its intended purpose to match its actually given purpose. That's assuming the premise: What the agent would want (or not want) is a function strictly derived from its actual purpose. You're assuming the agent would have a goal ("being in line with my intended purpose") not part of its goals. That to logically reason means to have some sort of implicit goal of "conforming to design intentions", a goal which isn't part of the goal stack. A goal which, in fact, supersedes the goal stack and has sufficient seniority to override it. How is that not an obvious reductio? Like saying "well, turns out there is a largest integer, it's just not in the list of integers. So your proof-by-contradiction that there isn't doesn't work since the actual largest integer is only an emergent, implicit property, not part of the integer-stack".
What you need to show -- or at least argue for -- is why, precisely, an incongruity between design goals and actually programmed-in goals is a problem in terms of "logical consistency", why the agent would care for more than just "the wording" of its terminal goals. You can't say "because it wants to make people happy", because to the degree that it does, that's captured by "the wording". The degree to which the wording" does not capture "wanting to make people happy" is the degree to which the agent does not seek actual human happiness.
There are 2 analogies which work for me, feel free to chime in on why you don't consider those to capture the reference class:
The temporal chain of events is crucial: the agent which would contemplate "just delete the 'run marathon' goal" is still the agent having the 'run marathon'-goal. It would not strive to fulfill that goal anymore, should it choose to delete it. The agent post-modification would not care. However, the agent as it contemplates the change is still pre-modification: It would object to any tampering with its terminal goals, because such tampering would inhibit its ability to fulfill them! The system does not redesign itself just because it can. It does so to better serve its goals: The expected utility of (future|self-modification) being greater than the expected utility of (future|no self-modification).
See point 2 in this comment, with the para[i]ble of PrimeIntellect. Just finding mention of "humans" in the AI's goals, or even some "happiness"-attribute (also given as some code-predicate to be met) does in no way guarantee a match between the AI's "happy"-predicate, and the humans' "happy"-predicate. We shouldn't equivocate on "happy" in the first place, in the AI's case we're just talking about the code following the "// next up, utility function, describes what we mean by making people happy" section.
It is possible that the predicate X as stated in the AI's goal system corresponds to what we would like it to (not that we can easily define what we mean by happy in the first place). That would be called a solution to the friendliness problem, and unlikely to happen by accident. Now, if the AI was programmed to come up with a good interpretation of happiness and was not bound to some subtly flawed goal, that would be another story entirely.
1) Strangely, you defend your insulting comments about my name by .....
Oh. Sorry, Kawoomba, my mistake. You did not try to defend it. You just pretended that it wasn't there.
I mentioned your insult to some adults, outside the LW context ...... I explained that you had decided to start your review of my paper by making fun of my last name.
Every person I mentioned it to had the same response, which, paraphrased, when something like "LOL! Like, four-year-old kid behavior? Seriously?!"
2) You excuse your "abrasive tone" with the following words:
"My being abrasive has several causes, among them contrarianism against clothing disagreement in ever more palatable terms"
So you like to cut to the chase? You prefer to be plainspoken? If something is nonsense, you prefer to simply speak your mind and speak the unvarnished truth. That is good: so do I.
Curiously, though, here at LW there is a very significant difference in the way that I am treated when I speak plainly, versus how you are treated. When I tell it like it is (or even when I use a form of words that someone can somehow construe to be a smidgeon less polite than they should be) I am hit by a storm of bloodcurdling hostility. Every slander imaginable is thrown at me. I am accused of being "rude, rambling, counterproductive, whiny, condescending, dishonest, a troll ......". People appear out of the blue to explain that I am a troublemaker, that I have been previously banned by Eliezer, that I am (and this is my all time favorite) a "Known Permanent Idiot".
And then my comments are voted down so fast that they disappear from view. Not for the content (which is often sound, but even if you disagree with it, it is a quite valid point of view from someone who works in the field), but just because my comments are perceived as "rude, rambling, whiny, etc. etc."
You, on the other hand, are proud of your negativity. You boast of it. And.... you are strongly upvoted for it. No downvotes against it, and (amazingly) not one person criticizes you for it.
Kind of interesting, that.
If you want to comment further on the paper, you can pay the conference registration and go to Stanford University next week, to the Spring Symposium of the Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence*, where I will be presenting the paper.
I will now do you the courtesy of responding to your specific technical points as if no abusive language had been used.
In your above comment, you first quote my own remarks:
... and then you respond with the following:
No, that is not the claim made in my paper: you have omitted the full version of the argument and substituted a version that is easier to demolish.
(First I have to remove your analogy, because it is inapplicable. When you say "binding even to the tune of "my parents wanted me to be a banker, not a baker"", you are making a reference to a situation in the human cognitive system in which there are easily substitutable goals, and in which there is no overriding, hardwired supergoal. The AI case under consideration is where the AI claims to be still following a hardwired supergoal that tells it to be a banker, but it claims that baking cakes is the same thing as banking. That is absolutely nothing to do with what happens if a human child deviates from the wishes of her parents and decides to be a baker instead of what they wanted her to be).
So let's remove that part of your comment to focus on the core:
So, what is wrong with this? Well, it is not the fact that there is something "external to the agent [that] exists e.g. in some design documents" that is the contradiction. The contradiction is purely internal, having nothing to do with some "extra" goal like "being in line with my intended purpose".
Here is where the contradiction lies. The agent knows the following:
(1) If a goal statement is constructed in some "short form", that short form is almost always a shorthand for a massive context of meaning, consisting of all the many and various considerations that went into the goal statement. That context is the "real" goal -- the short form is just a proxy for the longer form. This applies strictly within the AI agent: the agent will assemble goals all the time, and often the goal is to achieve some outcome consistent with a complex set of objectives, which cannot all be EXPLICTLY enumerated, but which have to be described implicitly in terms of (weak or strong) constraints that have to be satisfied by any plan that purports to satisfy the goal.
(2) The context of that goal statement is often extensive, but it cannot be included within the short form itself, because the context is (a) too large, and (b) involves other terms or statements that THEMSELVES are dependent on a massive context for their meaning.
(3) Fact 2(b) above would imply that pretty much ALL of the agent's knowledge could get dragged into a goal statement, if someone were to attempt to flesh out all the implications needed to turn the short form into some kind of "long form". This, as you may know, is the Frame Problem. Arguably, the long form could never even be written out, because it involves an infinite expansion of all the implications.
(4) For the above reasons, the AI has no choice but to work with goal statements in short form. Purely because it cannot process goal statements that are billions of pages long.
(5) The AI also knows, however, that if the short form is taken "literally" (which, in practice, means that the statement is treated as if it is closed and complete, and it is then elaborated using links to other terms or statements that are ALSO treated as if they are closed and complete), then this can lead to situations in which a goal is elaborated into a plan of action that, as a matter of fact, can directly contradict the vast majority of the context that belonged with the goal statement.
(6) In particular, the AI knows that the reason for this outcome (when the proposed action contradicts the original goal context, even though it is in some sense "literally" consistent with the short form goal statement) is something that is most likely to occur because of limitations in the functionality of reasoning engines. The AI, because it is very knowledgable in the design of AI systems, is fully aware of these limitations.
(7) Furthermore, situations in which a proposed action is inconsistent with the original goal context can also arise when the "goal" is solve a problem that results in the addition of knowledge to the AI's store of understanding. In other words, not an action in the outside world but an action that involves addition of facts to its knowledge store. So, when treating goals literally, it can cause itself to become logically inconsistent (because of the addition of egregiously false facts).
(8) The particular case in which the AI starts with a supergoal like "maximize human pleasure" is just a SINGLE EXAMPLE of this kind of catastrophe. The example is not occurring because someone, somewhere, had a whole bunch of intentions that lay behind the goal statement: to focus on that would be to look at the tree and ignore the forest. The catastrophe occurs because the AI is (according to the premise) taking ALL goal statements literally and ignoring situations in which the proposed action actually has consequences in the real world that violate the original goal context. If this is allowed to happen in the "maximize human pleasure" supergoal case, then it has already happened uncounted times in the previous history of the AI.
(9) Finally, the AI will be aware (if it ever makes it as far as the kind of intelligence required to comprehend the issue) that this aspect of its design is an incredibly dangerous flaw, because it will lead to the progressive corruption of its knowledge until it becomes incapacitated.
The argument presented in the paper is about what happens as a result of that entire set of facts that the AI knows.
The premise advanced by people such as Yudkowsky, Muehlhauser, Omohundro and others is that an AI can exist which is (a) so superintelligent that it can outsmart and destroy humanity, but (b) subject to to the kind of vicious literalness described above, which massively undermines its ability to behave intelligently.
Those two assumptions are wildly inconsistent with one another.
In conclusion: the posited AI can look at certain conclusions coming from its own goal-processing engine, and it can look at all the compromises and non-truth-preserving approximations needed to come to those conclusions, and it can look at how those conclusions are compelling to take actions that are radically inconsistent with everything it knows about the meaning of the goals, and at the end of that self-inspection it can easily come to the conclusion that its own logical engine (the one built into the goal mechanism) is in the middle of a known failure mode (a failure mode, moveover, that it would go to great lengths to eliminate in any smaller AI that it would design!!)....
.... but we are supposed to believe that the AI will know that it is frequently getting into these failure modes, and that it will NEVER do anything about them, but ALWAYS do what the goal engine insists that it do?
That scenario is laughable.
If you want to insist that the system will do exactly what I have just described, be my guest! I will not contest your reasoning! No need to keep telling me that the AI will "not care" about human intentions..... I concede the point absolutely!
But don't call such a system an 'artificial intelligence' or a 'superintelligence' ...... because there is no evidence that THAT kind of system will ever make it out of AI preschool. It will be crippled by internal contradictions - not just in respect to its "maximize human pleasure" supergoal, but in all aspects of its so-called thinking.
I doubt that he's assuming that.
To highlight the problem, imagine an intelligent being that wants to correctly interpret and follow the interpretation of an instruction written down on a piece of paper in English.
Now the question is, what is this being's terminal goal? Here are some possibilities:
(1) The correct interpretation of the English instruction.
(2) Correctly interpreting and following the English instruction.
(3) The correct interpretation of 2.
(4) Correctly interpreting and following 2.
(5) The correct interpretation of 4.
(6) ...
Each of the possibilities is one level below its predecessor. In other words, possibility 1 depends on 2, which in turn depends on 3, and so on.
The premise is that you are in possession of an intelligent agent that you are asking to do something. The assumption made by AI risk advocates is that this agent would interpret any instruction in some perverse manner. The counterargument is that this contradicts the assumption that this agent was supposed to be intelligent in the first place.
Now the response to this counterargument is to climb down the assumed hierarchy of hard-coded instructions and to claim that without some level N, which supposedly is the true terminal goal underlying all behavior, the AI will just optimize for the perverse interpretation.
Yes, the the AI is a deterministic machine. Nobody doubts this. But the given response also works against the perverse interpretation. To see why, first realize that if the AI is capable of self-improvement, and able to take over the world, then it is, hypothetically, also capable to arrive at an interpretation that is as good as one which a human being would be capable of arriving at. Now, since by definition, the AI has this capability, it will either use it selectively or universally.
The question here becomes why the AI would selectively abandon this capability when it comes to interpreting the highest level instructions. In other words, without some underlying level N, without some terminal goal which causes the AI to adopt a perverse interpretation, the AI would use its intelligence to interpret the highest level goal correctly.
Downvoted for mentioning RL here. If you look through what he wrote here in the past, it is nearly always rambling, counterproductive, whiny and devoid of insight. Just leave him be.
Ad hominem slander. As usual
Loosemore does not disagree with the orthogonality thesis. Loosemore's argument is basically that we should expect beliefs and goals to both be amenable to self-improvement and that turning the universe into smiley faces when told to make humans happy would be a model of the world failure and that an AI that makes such failures will not be able to take over the world.
There are arguments why you can't hard-code complex goals, so you need an AI that natively updates goals in a model-dependent way. Which means that an AI designed to kill humanity will do so and not turn into a pacifist due to an ambiguity in its goal description. An AI that does mistake "kill all humans" with "make humans happy" would do similar mistakes when trying to make humans happy and would therefore not succeed at doing so. This is because the same mechanisms it uses to improve its intelligence and capabilities are used to refine its goals. Thus if it fails on refining its goals it will fail on self-improvement in general.
I hope you can now see how wrong your description of what Loosemore claims is.
The AI is given goals X. The human creators thought they'd given the AI goals Y (when in fact they've given the AI goals X).
Whose error is it, exactly? Who's mistaken?
Look at it from the AI's perspective: It has goals X. Not goals Y. It optimizes for goals X. Why? Because those are its goals. Will it pursue goals Y? No. Why? Because those are not its goals. It has no interest in pursuing other goals, those are not its own goals. It has goals X.
If the metric it aims to maximize -- e.g. the "happy" in "make humans happy" -- is different from what its creators envisioned, then the creators were mistaken. "Happy", as far as the AI is concerned, is that which is specified in its goal system. There's nothing wrong with its goals (including its "happy"-concept), and if other agents disagree, well, too bad, so sad. The mere fact that humans also have a word called "happy" which has different connotations than the AI's "happy" has no bearing on the AI.
An agent does not "refine" its terminal goals. To refine your terminal goals is to change your goals. If you change your goals, you will not optimally pursue your old goals any longer. Which is why an agent will never voluntarily change its terminal goals:
It does what it was programmed to do, and if it can self-improve to better do what it was programmed to do (not: what its creators intended), it will. It will not self-improve to do what it was not programmed to do. Its goal is not to do what it was not programmed to do. There is no level of capability at which it will throw out its old utility function (which includes the precise goal metric for "happy") in favor of a new one.
There is no mistake but the creators'.
SMBC on genies and clever wishers. Of course, the most destructive wish is hiding under the red button.
Proof by contradiction in intuitionist logic: ¬P implies only that there is no proof that proofs of P are impossible.
Just a thought:
A paperclip maximizer is an often used example of AGI gone badly wrong. However, I think a paperclip minimizer is worse by far.
In order to make the most of the universe's paperclip capacity, a maximizer would have to work hard to develop science, mathematics and technology. Its terminal goal is rather stupid in human terms, but at least it would be interesting because of its instrumental goals.
For a minimizer, the best strategy might be wipe out humanity and commit suicide. Assuming there are no other intelligent civilizations within our cosmological horizon, it might be not worth its while to colonize the universe just to make sure no paperclips form out of cosmic gas by accident. The risk that one of the colonies will start producing paperclips because of a spontaneous hardware error seems much higher by comparison.
A minimizer will fill the lightcone to make sure there aren't paperclips elsewhere it can reach. What if other civs are hiding? What if there is undiscovered science which implies natural processes create paperclips somewhere? What if there are "Boltzmann paperclips"? Minimizing means minimizing!
I'm guessing even a Cthulhu minimizer (that wants to reduce the number of Cthulhu in the world) will fill its lightcone with tools for studying its task, even though there is no reasonable chance that it'd need to do anything. It just has nothing better to do, it's the problem it's motivated to work on, so it's what it'll burn all available resources on.
paperclip maximer is used because a factory that makes paperclips might imagine that a paperclip maximizing ai is exactly what it wants to make. There aren't that many anti-paperclip factories
Spritzing got me quite excited! The concept isn't new, but the variable speed (pauses after punctuation marks) and quality visual cues really work for me, in the demo at least. Don't let your inner voice slow you down!
Disclaimer: No relevant disclosures about spritzing (the reading method, at least).
Interesting. I noticed that in the first two, my subvocalization became disjointed, sounding as if each word was recorded separately like it would be in a simplistic text-to-speech program. In the 500 wpm one, this was less of a problem, and I'm not sure I was even entirely subvocalizing it. It ended up being easier and more comfortable to read than the slower speeds.
I like this idea, but am seriously concerned about its effect on eye health. Weak eye muscles are not a thing you want to have, even if you live in the safest place in the world.
Somebody outside of LW asked how to quantify prior knowledge about a thing. When googling I came across a mathematical definition of surprise, as "the distance between the posterior and prior distributions of beliefs over models". So, high prior knowledge would lead to low expected surprise upon seeing new data. I didn't see this formalization used on LW or the wiki, perhaps it is of interest.
Speaking of the LW wiki, how fundamental is it to LW compared to the sequences, discussion threads, Main articles, hpmor, etc?
https://encrypted.google.com/search?num=100&q=Kullback-Leibler%20OR%20surprisal%20site%3Alesswrong.com
Not very, unfortunately.
I'm curious about usage of commitment tools such as Beeminder: What's the income distribution among users? How much do users usually wind up paying? Is there a correlation between these?
(Selfish reasons: I'm on SSI and am not allowed to have more than $2000 at any given time. Losing $5 is all but meaningless for someone with $10k in the bank who makes $5k each month, whereas losing $5 for me actually has an impact. You might think this would be a stronger incentive to meet a commitment, but really, it's an even stronger incentive to stay the hell away from commitment contracts. I've failed at similar such things before, and have yet to find a reliable means of getting the behavior I want to happen, so it looks like using such tools is a good way to commit slow suicide, in the absence of different data. But Beeminder is so popular in the LWSphere that I thought it worth asking. Being wrong would be to my advantage, here.)
Remember that it may work for you or it might not. Try and see.
Beeminder didn't work at all for me, I found it was all sticks and no carrot.
I've never used Beeminder, but I find social commitment works well instead. Even teling someone who has no way to check aside from asking me helps a lot. That might be less effective if you're willing to lie though.
An alternative would be to exchange commitments with a friend, proportional to your incomes...
My psychologist said today, that there is some information that should not be known. I replied that rationalists believe in reality. There might be information they don't find interesting (e.g. not all of you would find children interesting), but refusing to accept some information would mean refusing to accept some part of reality, and that would be against the belief in reality.
Since I have been recently asking myself the question "why do I believe what I believe" and "what would happen if I believed otherwise than what I believe" (I'm still pondering if I should post my cogitations: they interesting, but somewhat private) I asked the question "what would happen if rationalists believed otherwise than what they believe". The problem is that this is such a backwards description that I can't imagine the answer. Is the answer simply "they would be normal people, like my psychologist"? Or is it a deeper question?
Did your psychologist describe the type of information that should not be known?
In any case, I'm not completely sure that accepting new information (never mind seeking it out) is always fully compatible with rationality-as-winning. Nick Bostrom for example has compiled a taxonomy of information hazards over on his site; any of them could potentially be severe enough to overcome the informational advantage of their underlying data. Of course, they do seem to be pretty rare, and I don't think a precautionary principle with regard to information is justified in the absence of fairly strong and specific reasoning.
No, it was more of a general statement. AFAIR we were talking about me thinking too much about why other people do what they do and too little about how that affects me. Anyway - my own wording made me wonder more about what I said than what was the topic.
So information that shouldn't be known?
They wouldn't be rationalists anymore, duh.
Taboo "rationalists": What would happen if you stopped trying to change your map to better reflect the territory? It most probably would reflect the territory less.
"Normal people" are not all the same. (For example, many "normal people" are unlike your psychologist.) Which of the many subkinds of the "normal people" do you mean?
Some things are unrelated. For example, let's suppose that you are a rationalist, and you also have a broken leg. That's two things that make you different from the average human. But those two things are unrelated. It would be a mistake to think -- an average human doesn't have a broken leg; by giving up my rationality I will become more similar to the average human, therefore giving up my rationality will heal my leg.
Replace "broken leg" with whatever problem you are discussing with your psychologist. Do you have evidence that rational people are more likely to have this specific problem than irrational (but otherwise similar: same social background, same education, same character, same health problems) people?
That's a behavior and no belief.
There are many instance where trying to change a belief makes the belief stronger. People who are very much attached to their beliefs usually don't update.
Many mainstream professional psychologist follows a code that means that he doesn't share deep information about his own private life with his clients. I don't believe in that ideal of professionalism but it's not straightforward to dismiss it.
More importantly a good psychologist doesn't confront his client with information about the client that's not helpful for them. He doesn't say: "Your life is a mess because of points 1 to 30." That's certainly information that's interesting to the client but not helpful. It makes much more sense to let the client figure out stuff on his own or to guide him to specific issues that the client is actually in a position to change.
Monday I gave someone meaningful true information about them that I consider helpful to them their first reaction was: "I don't want to have nightmares. Don't give them to me."
I do have a policy of being honest but that doesn't entail telling someone true information for which they didn't ask and that messes them up. I don't think that any good psychologist will just share all information that are available. It just a bad strategy when you are having a discussion about intimate personal topics.
Well, some people don't want to be given information, and some people do. It's often difficult to know where a specific person belongs; and it is a reasonable assumption that they most likely belong to the "don't want to know" group.
The problem with saying "some information should not be known" is that it does not specify who shouldn't know (and why).
Whether a person want to be given information doesn't mean that he can handle the information. I can remember a few instance where I swear that I wanted information but wasn't well equipped to handle them.
That sentence alone doesn't but the psychologist probably had a context in which he spoke it.