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Squark comments on On not diversifying charity - Less Wrong Discussion

1 Post author: DanielLC 14 March 2014 05:14AM

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Comment author: Squark 14 March 2014 03:29:17PM -1 points [-]

Because the VNM axioms seem so intuitively obvious that violating them strongly feels like making an error. Of course I cannot prove them without introducing another set of axioms which can be questioned in turn etc. You always need to start with some assumptions.

Which VNM axiom would you reject?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 18 March 2014 02:13:28AM 0 points [-]

So you care more about following the VNM axioms, then which utility function you are maximizing? That behavior is itself not VNM rational.

Comment author: Squark 19 March 2014 07:53:42PM -1 points [-]

If you don't follow the VNM axioms you are not maximizing any utility function.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 22 March 2014 06:34:03AM -1 points [-]

So why do you care about maximizing any utility function?

Comment author: Squark 23 March 2014 05:26:40PM 0 points [-]

What would constitute a valid answer to that question, from your point of view?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 23 March 2014 05:43:30PM 0 points [-]

I can't think of one. You're the one arguing for what appears to be an inconsistent position.

Comment author: Squark 23 March 2014 06:39:26PM 0 points [-]

What is the inconsistency?

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 27 March 2014 05:27:00AM 0 points [-]

Saying one should maximize a utility function, but not caring which utility function is maximized.

Comment author: Squark 27 March 2014 07:04:54PM 0 points [-]

Who said I don't care which utility function is maximized?

Comment author: asr 14 March 2014 09:08:05PM 1 point [-]

I would reject the completeness axiom. I often face choices where I don't know which option I prefer, but where I would not agree that I am indifferent. And I'm okay with this fact.

I also reject the transitivity axiom -- intransitive preference is an observed fact for real humans in a wide variety of settings. And you might say this is irrational, but my preference are what they are.

Comment author: Squark 14 March 2014 09:39:28PM 0 points [-]

Can you give an example of situations A, B, C for which your preferences are A > B, B > C, C > A? What would you do if you need to choose between A, B, C?

Comment author: asr 15 March 2014 04:02:06PM 0 points [-]

Sure. I'll go to the grocery store and have three kinds of tomato sauce and I'll look at A and B, and pick B, then B and C, pick C, and C and A, and pick A. And I'll stare at them indecisively until my preferences shift. It's sort of ridiculous -- it can take something like a minute to decide. This is NOT the same as feeling indifferent, in which case I would just pick one and go.

I have similar experiences when choosing between entertainment options, transport, etc. My impression is that this is an experience that many people have.

If you google "intransitive preference" you get a bunch of references -- this one has cites to the original experiements: http://www.stanford.edu/class/symbsys170/Preference.pdf

Comment author: Squark 15 March 2014 04:48:48PM 0 points [-]

It seems to me that what you're describing are not preferences but spur of the moment decisions. A preference should be thought of as in CEV: the thing you would prefer if you thought about it long enough, knew enough, were more the person you want to be etc. The mere fact you somehow decide between the sauces in the end suggests you're not describing a preference. Also I doubt that you have terminal values related to tomato sauce. More likely, your terminal values involve something like "experiencing pleasure" and your problem here is epistemic rather than "moral": you're not sure which sauce would give you more pleasure.

Comment author: asr 15 March 2014 11:06:10PM 1 point [-]

You are using preference to mean something other than I thought you were.

I'm not convinced that the CEV definition of preference is useful. No actual human ever has infinite time or information; we are always making decisions while we are limited computationally and informationally. You can't just define away those limits. And I'm not at all convinced that our preferences would converge even given infinite time. That's an assumption, not a theorem.

When buying pasta sauce, I have multiple incommensurable values: money, health, and taste. And in general, when you have multiple criteria, there's no non-paradoxical way to do rankings. (This is basically Arrow's theorem). And I suspect that's the cause for my lack of preference ordering.

Comment author: Squark 16 March 2014 08:06:14AM 0 points [-]

No actual human ever has infinite time or information

Of course. But rationality means your decisions should be as close as possible to the decisions you would make if you had infinite time and information.

When buying pasta sauce, I have multiple incommensurable values: money, health, and taste.

Money is not a terminal value for most people. I suspect you want money because of the things it can buy you, not as a value in itself. I think health is also instrumental. We value health because illness is unpleasant, might lead to death and generally interferes with taking actions to optimize our values. The unpleasant sensations of illness might well be commensurable with the pleasant sensations of taste. For example you would probably pass up a gourmet meal if eating it implies getting cancer.

Comment author: Lumifer 16 March 2014 06:16:51PM 2 points [-]

But rationality means your decisions should be as close as possible to the decisions you would make if you had infinite time and information.

However you can not know what decisions you would make if you had infinite time and information. You can make guesses based on your ideas of convergence, but that's about it.

Comment author: Squark 17 March 2014 07:47:12PM -2 points [-]

A Bayesian never "knows" anything. She can only compute probabilities and expectation values.

Comment author: Lumifer 17 March 2014 08:15:55PM *  1 point [-]

Can she compute probabilities and expectation values with respect to decisions she would make if she had infinite time and information?

Comment author: Lumifer 14 March 2014 04:05:42PM *  0 points [-]

"feels like" is a notoriously bad criterion :-)

Before we even get to VNM axioms I would like to point out that humans do not operate in a VNM setting where a single consequentialist entity is faced with a sequence of lotteries and is able to express his preferences as one-dimensional rankings.

Haven't there been a lot of discussion about the applicability of VNM to human ethical systems? It looks like a well-trodden ground to me.

Comment author: DanielLC 14 March 2014 11:38:32PM 0 points [-]

Before we even get to VNM axioms I would like to point out that humans do not operate in a VNM setting where a single consequentialist entity is faced with a sequence of lotteries and is able to express his preferences as one-dimensional rankings.

He doesn't express the entire ranking, but he does still have to choose the best option.

Comment author: Squark 14 March 2014 06:52:51PM -1 points [-]

"feels like" is a notoriously bad criterion :-)

What would be a good criterion? You cannot pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You need to start from something.

Before we even get to VNM axioms I would like to point out that humans do not operate in a VNM setting where a single consequentialist entity is faced with a sequence of lotteries and is able to express his preferences as one-dimensional rankings.

How would you want to operate? You mentioned instrumental rationality. I don't know how to define instrumental rationality without the VNM setting (or something similar).

Comment author: Lumifer 14 March 2014 07:52:29PM 1 point [-]

What would be a good criterion?

Mismatch with reality.

I don't know how to define instrumental rationality without the VNM setting (or something similar)

Well, the locally canonical definition is this:

Instrumental rationality: achieving your values. Not necessarily "your values" in the sense of being selfish values or unshared values: "your values" means anything you care about. The art of choosing actions that steer the future toward outcomes ranked higher in your preferences. On LW we sometimes refer to this as "winning".

I see nothing about VNM there.

Comment author: Squark 14 March 2014 08:02:28PM -1 points [-]

Mismatch with reality.

I'm not following

Well, the locally canonical definition is this...

This is a nice motto, but how do you make a mathematical model out of it?

Comment author: Lumifer 14 March 2014 08:15:00PM *  0 points [-]

I'm not following

Well, you originally said " violating them strongly feels like making an error. " I said that "feels like" is a weak point. You asked for an alternative. I suggested mismatch with reality. As in "violating X leads to results which do not agree with what we know of reality".

This is a nice motto, but how do you make a mathematical model out of it?

We were talking about how would a human qualify as a "rational agent". I see no need to make mathematical models here.

Comment author: Squark 14 March 2014 08:22:17PM 0 points [-]

..."violating X leads to results which are do not agree with what we know of reality".

This only makes sense in epistemic context, not in instrumental one. How can a way of making decisions "not agree with what we know of reality"? Note that I'm making a normative statement (what one should do), not a descriptive statement ("people usually behave in such-and-such way").

We were talking about how would a human qualify as a "rational agent". I see no need to make mathematical models here.

There is always a need to make mathematical models since before you have a mathematical model your understanding is imprecise. For example, a mathematical model allows you to prove than under certain assumptions diversifying donations is irrational.

Comment author: Lumifer 14 March 2014 08:58:13PM 1 point [-]

How can a way of making decisions "not agree with what we know of reality"?

Ever heard of someone praying for a miracle?

There is always a need to make mathematical models since before you have a mathematical model your understanding is imprecise.

Bollocks! I guess next you'll be telling me I can not properly understand anything which is not expressed in numbers... :-P

Comment author: Squark 14 March 2014 09:32:43PM 0 points [-]

Ever heard of someone praying for a miracle?

There is nothing intrinsic to the action of "praying for a miracle" which "disagrees with reality". It's only when we view this action in the context of a decision theory which says e.g. "choose the action which leads to maximal expected utility under the Solomonoff prior" can we say the action is "irrational" because, in fact, it does not lead to maximal expected utility. But in order to make this argument you need to assume a decision theory.

Comment author: Lumifer 14 March 2014 11:45:35PM 0 points [-]

There is nothing intrinsic to the action of "praying for a miracle" which "disagrees with reality".

Given the definition of a miracle, I think there is, but anyway -- I'm willing to go out on a limb, take the shortcut, and pronounce praying for a miracle to fail instrumental rationality. Without first constructing a rigorous mathematical model of the expected utility under the Solomonoff prior. YMMV, of course.