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blacktrance comments on Be comfortable with hypocrisy - Less Wrong Discussion

32 Post author: The_Duck 08 April 2014 10:03AM

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Comment author: blacktrance 08 April 2014 04:08:06PM *  -1 points [-]

I would expect anyone who genuinely believes that eating meat is wrong to not eat meat. If they eat meat while talking about how wrong it is, they believe something other than "Eating meat is wrong", such as "I don't want other people to eat meat". Or perhaps they think that eating meat promotes suffering, and suffering is socially assigned the label "bad", but they don't actually think that the extent to which they contribute to it is bad.

If your high moral ideals are unappealing to you, then perhaps they're incorrect and you shouldn't abide by them. More generally, if you can't live up to your own ideals, you should reexamine what you mean by "should" and "your ideals".

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 08 April 2014 07:53:16PM 3 points [-]

Well, for me it is a habit (I was eating meat before I realized it is wrong) and convenience (society all the time provides me easy opportunities to pay other people to torture and kill animals for me and even not to think about it).

If I had a magic button that would rewrite my habits, I would push it, even if it meant that no one else would be influenced by it.

Seems like you are trying to redefine "wanting" to mean what people are actually doing. There are some problems with this, but it's kinda difficult to explain the problem with that. Something about people not being automatically strategic, or not being utility maximizers...

Comment author: blacktrance 08 April 2014 08:49:40PM 0 points [-]

It's conceivable that you forget that eating meat is unethical every time you order or buy it, but that's unlikely. If you really believed "I shouldn't buy meat" when you had the opportunity to buy it, you wouldn't buy it. (It doesn't mean you wouldn't find meat appealing, only that you wouldn't buy it.)

People don't always want to do what they should do. Sometimes they have habits that cause them to forget that they're doing something wrong. Sometimes they're inconsistent, and may not realize that they're acting contrary to what they'd do if they were consistent. But people can't simultaneously believe "I shouldn't do X" and "I should do X", as in "I shouldn't eat meat" and "I should buy this chicken".

Comment author: MathiasZaman 09 April 2014 06:15:31PM 1 point [-]

But people can't simultaneously believe "I shouldn't do X" and "I should do X", as in "I shouldn't eat meat" and "I should buy this chicken".

I don't think that's what Viliam_Bur is saying.

Look at this problem that I encounter every day: I believe that I should learn how to program, and yet I end up playing Team Fortress. This can be because of laziness or akrasia or because I've spend my willpower for other things.

The same thing can happen for broader moral considerations. If you believe eating meat is wrong, you can still end up eating meat if you have a strong craving, don't feel like arguing with the person cooking your meal or any other reason.

For perfect rationalists, acting in accordance with your moral values is easy and takes no effort. Unfortunately, this isn't the case for humans.

Comment author: blacktrance 09 April 2014 06:53:28PM 0 points [-]

I don't think akrasia can apply to the area traditionally considered to be morality. If you believe doing something would be evil, that feels different from it being merely suboptimal and harmful to yourself. For example, you like playing TF2, even though it may be a suboptimal to play it at times, but even though it's a habit, you'd instantly stop doing it if, say, the player avatars in TF2 were real beings that experienced terror, pain, and suffering in the course of gameplay. It stands to reason that eating meat would be the same.

Comment author: MrCogmor 22 April 2014 10:24:12AM *  0 points [-]

I searched for "I want to be vegan but love meat" It was in google autocomplete and has plenty of results including this Yahoo answers page which explicitly mentions that the poster wants to be a vegetarian for ethical reasons.

Comment author: blacktrance 22 April 2014 04:07:21PM 0 points [-]

I don't think that's a counterexample. If I had a billionaire uncle who willed me his fortune, I could say something like "I like money but I don't want to commit murder" - and then I wouldn't commit murder. Liking the taste of meat and still abstaining from it because you think eating it is evil is similar.

Comment author: MrCogmor 23 April 2014 10:05:36AM *  0 points [-]

The point of it wasn't to say that people like meat. The point was that people have or expect akrasia from not eating meat enough that they search Google and ask people on question sites for help.

I used to believe like you that if you believe something is morally good then you would do it. That axiom used to be a corner stone in my model of morality. There was actually a stage in my life where my moral superiority provided most of my self esteem and disobeying it was unthinkable. When I encountered belief in belief I couldn't make sense of it at all. I was further confused that they didn't admit it when I explained how they were being inconsistent.

But besides that I don't think humans evolved to have that kind of consistency . I believe that humans act mostly according to reinforcement. Morality does provide a form of reinforcement in the sense that you feel good when you act morally and worse otherwise, however if there was a sufficient external motivator such as extreme torture then you would eventually give in, perhaps rationalizing the decision.

I would suggest the people who have commented here read this post if they haven't yet because there have been two arguments over definitions here already (first with consistency and then the definition of "genuine belief") and there is a reason that is frowned upon. You should also see Belief in belief for better understanding how people can act contrary to their stated morals and behave in contradictory ways. (It typically comes up a lot with religious people, who don't try to be as moral as they can be despite viewing it as good)

Comment author: DanielLC 12 April 2014 04:46:03AM 1 point [-]

I think this is an instance of the near/far distinction. Morality is far. It's what I espouse, what I consciously intend to do when the decision isn't being made right now, and what I'd program an AI to enforce.

Comment author: Punoxysm 08 April 2014 06:25:20PM 1 point [-]

On the contrary, it is entirely possible to have a belief and not act on it. I believe that Singer's arguments for vegetarianism are very strong. But I still eat meat because it is delicious and convenient.

I find utilitarian arguments fairly strong, and I know that at the very least several thousand more of the most frivolous dollars I spend every year could be allocated to altruistic causes with great net benefit by any utilitarian and many non-utilitarian ethical frameworks, yet I do not do so.

I know that exercise is good for my health, yet I partake too infrequently. That does not mean I fundamentally misunderstand the benefits of exercise, or misunderstand the value of health.

Comment author: blacktrance 08 April 2014 06:40:32PM *  2 points [-]

It is possible to say that something is wrong according to a certain moral framework (for example, utilitarianism) and not subscribe to that framework. If Singer makes strong utilitarian arguments against eating meat, but you eat meat because it's delicious, it can be perfectly consistent if you're not a utilitarian. You can agree with many utilitarian premises and conclusions and still not be a utilitarian.

Edit: If you consider utilitarianism to be correct, what do you mean by that?

Comment author: Punoxysm 08 April 2014 08:25:23PM 2 points [-]

I mean that I have no ethical basis for meat-eating. "Meat is delicious" is an argument from selfish hedonism, and I could not provide a credible philosophical justification.

If you're familiar with the comedian Louis CK, the basis of most of his comedy is that he understands how to behave ethically, to respect his fellow human beings, to improve himself and the world around him, yet most of the time he persists in perversely defying his better impulses. Singer addresses the same topic : it is entirely possible to be unethical - the sky will not fall, the oceans will not boil, you will not be sent to hell. But you shouldn't do it because it is unethical. But if you behave unethically, as all of us frequently do, the earth will keep on spinning.

I believe utilitarianism is, roughly, a correct framework for ethics (to qualify that, I believe that worrying over specifics of ethical frameworks is a rabbit-hole that you shouldn't head down, since most ethical frameworks will correlate heavily in terms of ordinal rankings of actions actually available to you in regular life).

A selfishly hedonistic lifestyle is unethical by almost any standards, certainly none I subscribe to, yet that is essentially how I live (I believe that most people are mostly selfishly hedonistic most of the time; I am no exception).

I could tie myself in knots trying to excuse myself from charges of hypocrisy, but I think I, along with most people, essentially am a hypocrite w/r/t my declared values.

Comment author: CronoDAS 09 April 2014 11:08:07PM *  3 points [-]

If you're familiar with the comedian Louis CK, the basis of most of his comedy is that he understands how to behave ethically, to respect his fellow human beings, to improve himself and the world around him, yet most of the time he persists in perversely defying his better impulses.

Louis CK, channeling Peter Singer: "My Life Is Really Evil"

Comment author: blacktrance 08 April 2014 08:41:18PM -1 points [-]

"Selfish hedonism" is also an ethical system, though not a very popular one. You could say that meat gives you pleasure and that ethically justifies eating it, even though it causes some suffering.

it is entirely possible to be unethical - the sky will not fall, the oceans will not boil, you will not be sent to hell

I agree that it's possible to be unethical, but I don't believe that it's possible to believe that you're doing something unethical while you're doing it, not if you believe that you actually believe that you shouldn't do it. (On the other hand, it's perfectly possible to think "This is what society in general or a particular ethical system labels as unethical, but I don't agree with it.")

If you believe utilitarianism to be correct but don't always act as a utilitarian would, what do you mean when you say that you believe that utilitarianism is correct? One possibility is that you forget that utilitarianism is correct every time you have the opportunity to buy or eat meat, but this seems unlikely. Another possibility is that you forget that meat-eating is bad from a utilitarian perspective when you have an opportunity to eat meat, but this is also unlikely. So what do you mean by "utilitarianism is... correct"?

Comment author: Lumifer 08 April 2014 08:50:52PM 6 points [-]

I don't believe that it's possible to believe that you're doing something unethical while you're doing it

<boggle> Really?

Comment author: Punoxysm 08 April 2014 08:57:42PM 1 point [-]

What really goes on, I think for most people and certainly myself, is compartmentalization. I understand certain things to be ethical and others to be unethical, and when it comes time to make a decision (eating meat, for instance) that question is entirely neglected, or skimmed over.

Now, clearly animal suffering is something I don't really care about. But that doesn't mean I have any argument or foundation for believing that it is legitimately unimportant. I think this is much truer for an issue I care more about (but not enough to act fully ethically), poverty and altruism. I know that people across the world are impovershed and could benefit from my altruism more than I will benefit from something frivolous and overpriced I might buy instead. But I may still buy the frivolous thing at times.

And all but the most committed people will behave this way most of the time; they will not even earnestly try to behave ethically, but instead behave conveniently.

One possibility is that you forget that utilitarianism is correct every time you have the opportunity to buy or eat meat, but this seems unlikely. Another possibility is that you forget that meat-eating is bad from a utilitarian perspective when you have an opportunity to eat meat, but this is also unlikely.

Yes, these are both unlikely, but replace "forget" with "habitually conspire with myself to forget/ignore/brush off".

Think of it this way: Whether someone sticks to a diet (for heatlh, let's say, and not vegetarianism) or not is partly a matter of belief in the importance of the diet, but it is also partly a matter of habit, convenience, impulse and opportunity. The same is true for when we follow our ethical beliefs.

Comment author: blacktrance 08 April 2014 09:04:38PM *  0 points [-]

Compartmentalization does make it sound that you forget that eating meat is unethical when it's decision time.

Now, clearly animal suffering is something I don't really care about. But that doesn't mean I have any argument or foundation for believing that it is legitimately unimportant.

Do you need an argument for believing it's legitimately unimportant? Why not just say that it's an arbitrary taste? The same goes for altruism - other people may benefit more from your money than you do, but, you don't care nearly as much about them as you care about yourself. Utilitarianism says that's wrong, but why should you think that utilitarianism is correct?

As for diets, when someone develops habits that maintain a diet, it's because they believe that diet to be correct.

Comment author: Punoxysm 08 April 2014 09:15:22PM 0 points [-]

You are right that tastes are a deciding factor, but you're taking it too far. According to you it impossible to act unethically, and/or your personal ethics must be consistently determined by your actions. I can essentially behave entirely arbitrarily and to you I will be obeying my own true code of ethics.

A big part of what this site addresses is how humans are inconsistent, irrational, and self-deceiving and short-termist. Can we at least agree that there are moments when people take actions that are more inconsistent, irrational and self-deceiving and moments when their actions are better-harmonized with their stated/aspirational goals and beliefs?

And can we agree that if I believe, as most reasonable people to, that irrational anger is bad, yet I flip someone off in a bout of road rage, it's possible I'm failing to live up to a consistent set of beliefs which I legitimately care about, rather than my stated beliefs being a veneer over my true, sometimes-road-raging beliefs?

And if you've ever been on a diet or known people on a diet, you know that circumstance and external factors (say, trainer or family support, distance to the nearest grocery store vs. nearest fast food place) make a huge difference on adherence, even when there's no clear tie between those things and how correct the person believes the diet to be?

Comment author: blacktrance 08 April 2014 09:49:17PM 0 points [-]

According to you it impossible to act unethically, and/or your personal ethics must be consistently determined by your actions. I can essentially behave entirely arbitrarily and to you I will be obeying my own true code of ethics.

Not at all. It's certainly possible to act unethically, such as if you're inconsistent, or if you have mistaken beliefs about what's ethical. What you can't do is intentionally do something while consciously thinking that it's unethical. For example, you can't think "I'll torture these children, even though torturing children is wrong" - not if you believe that torturing children is wrong.

It is true that people are sometimes inconsistent because sometimes they act according to their habits instead of deliberately, or because strong emotions overwhelm them and they forget to do what they believe to be correct. But if that were the main explanation for why people don't always do what they believe to be right, I would expect people to have the feeling of "Oops, I forgot! and messed up" more often than they seem to. Instead, something like "It's wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway" seems to be more common, which implies that they don't really think it's wrong.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 14 April 2014 09:33:49AM 0 points [-]

Minds are modular. A part of your mind could believe that was something was wrong, while another didn't care and just wanted to do it.

Comment author: DanArmak 08 April 2014 05:21:58PM 0 points [-]

Calling actions 'right' or 'wrong' confuses the issue, because it assumes an absolute scale of value. In many systems, actions are of (positive or negative) value to someone, and of different value to someone else. So eating a chicken is certainly bad for the chicken, but it may be good for the eater, and then you need to weight the two things against each other.

It's perfectly consistent for me to believe that eating meat is 'wrong' in the sense of being harmful to the animal being eaten, and yet I do eat meat because the value to myself outweighs that, so it's 'right for me'.

Comment author: blacktrance 08 April 2014 05:48:05PM 0 points [-]

"Right" and "wrong" mean something more than "bad for X and good for Y", they are normative, "wrong" meaning "what one ought not do". So if I believe that it's wrong to eat meat, I am saying something more than eating meat is bad for the chicken, I mean that I should not eat meat.