the Chareidim don't actually believe in their defenses
Yes.
What I wrote was a steelman of their positions, and must be taken as such. They themselves do not have such sophisticated mental models of the world. The answer to why they hate the IDF and the state of Israel is simply one of tribal affiliation. <>
[Edit: Also see point 3 in iarwain1's linked comment. It explains the hareidi attitude to all this.]
If it's worth saying, but not worth its own post (even in Discussion), then it goes here.
Thread started before the end of the last thread to ecourage Monday as first day.