IlyaShpitser comments on Open Thread, April 27-May 4, 2014 - Less Wrong Discussion
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (200)
Can you point to examples of these "holy wars"? I haven't encountered something I'd describe like that, so I don't know if we've been seeing different things, or just interpreting it differently.
To me it looks like a tension between a method that's theoretically better but not well-established, and a method that is not ideal but more widely understood so more convenient - a bit like the tension between the metric and imperial systems, or <geek warning> between flash and html5.
[etc.]
Ugh. Here is a good heuristic:
"Not in stats or machine learning? Stop talking about this."
Dude, I'm being genuinely curious about what "holy wars" he's talking about. So far I got:
... but zero actual answers, so I can't even tell if he's talking about some stupid overblown bullshit, or if he's just exaggerating what is actually a pretty low-key difference in opinion.
A "holy war" between Bayesians and frequentists exists in the modern academic literature for statistics, machine learning, econometrics, and philosophy (this is a non-exhaustive list).
Bradley Efron, who is arguably the most accomplished statistician alive, wrote the following in a commentary for Science in 2013 [1]:
In another paper published in 2013, Efron wrote [2]:
Thirty years ago, Efron was more critical of Bayesian statistics [3]:
The following bit of friendly banter in 1965 between M. S. Bartlett and John W. Pratt shows that the holy war was ongoing 50 years ago [4]:
For further reading I recommend [5], [6], [7].
[1]: Efron, Bradley. 2013. “Bayes’ Theorem in the 21st Century.” Science 340 (6137) (June 7): 1177–1178. doi:10.1126/science.1236536.
[2]: Efron, Bradley. 2013. “A 250-Year Argument: Belief, Behavior, and the Bootstrap.” Bulletin of the American Mathematical Society 50 (1) (April 25): 129–146. doi:10.1090/S0273-0979-2012-01374-5.
[3]: Efron, B. 1986. “Why Isn’t Everyone a Bayesian?” American Statistician 40 (1) (February): 1–11. doi:10.1080/00031305.1986.10475342.
[4]: Pratt, John W. 1965. “Bayesian Interpretation of Standard Inference Statements.” Journal of the Royal Statistical Society: Series B (Methodological) 27 (2): 169–203. http://www.jstor.org/stable/2984190.
[5]: Senn, Stephen. 2011. “You May Believe You Are a Bayesian but You Are Probably Wrong.” Rationality, Markets and Morals 2: 48–66. http://www.rmm-journal.com/htdocs/volume2.html.
[6]: Gelman, Andrew. 2011. “Induction and Deduction in Bayesian Data Analysis.” Rationality, Markets and Morals 2: 67–78. http://www.rmm-journal.com/htdocs/volume2.html.
[7]: Gelman, Andrew, and Christian P. Robert. 2012. “‘Not Only Defended but Also Applied’: The Perceived Absurdity of Bayesian Inference”. Statistics; Theory. arXiv (June 28).
For lots of "holy war" anecdotes, see The Theory That Would Not Die by Sharon Bertsch McGrayne.
Do you consider personal insults, accusations of fraud, or splitting academic departments along party lines to be "a pretty low-key difference in opinion"? If so, then it is "overblown bullshit," otherwise it isn't.
Ilya responded to your second paragraph not the first one. metric vs. imperial or flash vs. html5 are not good analogies.