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polymathwannabe comments on Open thread, 16-22 June 2014 - Less Wrong Discussion

2 Post author: David_Gerard 16 June 2014 01:12PM

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Comment author: polymathwannabe 17 June 2014 02:01:31AM 0 points [-]

If you want to give an example of successful Westernization, Japan is a terrible example.

In the 17th century, the Dutch broke the commercial monopoly the Portuguese had over Japan, and the infighting between Dutch and Portuguese bothered the Japanese so much that they closed off the country. Only the Dutch (who had the wisdom to never use missionaries) were allowed to keep trading, and only through one port in one island.

Fast forward to Commodore Perry and his gunboat diplomacy. Panicked, the Japanese quickly copied the ways of the West, including the industrial revolution and the German education system, and by the next century they had become an imperialistic oppressor over much of East Asia. It took WW2 to put a stop to that. Then the Americans took charge of ruling the country until it didn't appear to be a threat anymore.

During the 1980's it seemed Japan was headed for big things, but they didn't know what to do with that promise. Maybe they panicked again. Now Japan is a toothless beast, unsure of its future, economically uncertain (still the world's 3rd, but stagnant), and demographically doomed.

I was tempted to give Siam as a successful example instead, if only because they managed to never be colonized, but right now they're such a political joke that my first impression on this matter stands: there's no way colonization can end well.

Comment author: Salemicus 17 June 2014 10:02:35AM *  17 points [-]

I am confused as to why your potted history indicates that Meiji Japan is a bad example of successful westernisation.

  • On first contact, Japan unwisely attempts to shut out the Westerners, and stagnates for centuries, leading to the humiliation of Bakumatsu. This could easily have ended in the destruction of the Japanese nation; not copying the West was a disaster.
  • Seeing the need to avoid that fate, the Japanese showed the flexibility and wisdom to reform their nation. They quickly copied the ways of the West, which was a roaring success for Japan; they not only avoided destruction, but managed to defeat Western powers (e.g. Russo-Japanese war). Yes, they became an "imperialistic oppressor" (your words) to their neighbours. So what? The question is how should a people facing colonization act, not how should their neighbours hope they act.
  • Despite the destruction of WW2, Japan quickly rebounded, becoming even more Western, and even more successful. Yes, things aren't perfect, no, they aren't doomed, they are one of the richest and most successful countries in the world. The Cree Nation would kill to have their problems.
Comment author: Eugine_Nier 19 June 2014 02:13:22AM *  4 points [-]

I was tempted to give Siam as a successful example instead, if only because they managed to never be colonized,

The reason Siam was never colonized was that it served as a buffer state between British Burma and French Indo-China. This suggests another method to avoid colonization. Play rival would-be colonizers against each other.

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