? Taking apparent subject matter experts as genuine experts as a default is fraught with peril.

You have no evidence that philosophers are frauds. It's all (uninformed) opinion.

Ok. First of all, no one has said that professional philosophers are "frauds" or anything like that. Not doing your subject well, is not at all the same thing as being a fraud. You may want to reread this discussion subthread- I've tried repeatedly to explain that the problem under discussion is not that no one is doing good philosophy, it is that a large fraction of the discipline is not, and that includes focusing on questions that should be already settled. Since I've also explained already that many attitudes on LW are mainstream philosophical standpoints, it would be very strange for me to think that philosophers as a whole were frauds.

I'm also puzzled by your choice of reply. It may be that there's some subtle illusion of transparency issue here, but it looks to me like you took one sentence, repeated and assertion as a reply to that sentence and didn't grapple with the central point of the paragraph containing that sentence: It is easy to give examples of whole classes of nominal classes of subject matter experts who are just wrong. As I said, any presumption of subject matter experts by itself being worthwhile to pay attention to is difficult at best. Now, do you intend to actually respond to this issue?

That doesn't respond substantially to the point other than to say "hey, someone disagrees with you".

If you have put forward the fact that you, uninformed, can't see how it works as amounting to the fact that it cannot work, then the existence of Kanes work is significant....because, whilst his theory may just .be opinion, so therefore is yours.

It appears you are (ironically enough!) presuming a degree of ignorance on my part which isn't accurate. I'm familiar with Kane's work, I summarized already the many problems with it. It might help if you'd actually read that section of my response.

But we know this isn't how humans make decisions- i

Please expand

You know, I did give a link which does just that. But if you want, I'll expand on how this is relevant: Two stage notions of free will posit that there are two steps: first, a list of options is compiled, then a mind makes a decision from that list. But we have a host of psychological data demonstrating that that isn't how humans make decisions. Options which occur early on are given more weight than those which occur later for example.

many in the other field are simply ignoring physics wholesale when discussing these issues.

Please provide examples

Aside from free will proponents, I already gave an example- most versions of A-time are not consistent with the laws of physics.

will. As far as I can tell, most versions of it are either obviously false, or are intuitively appealing but logically incohere.nt

But you made no attempt to steelman the contrary view by surveying the literature to find the best arguments for it. If you had, you would have heard of Kane.

I'm mildly curious what makes you think I hadn't heard of Kane. Do you really think Kane's arguments are so strong that anyone who disagrees with them, and doesn't feel a need to bring them up specifically out of a myriad of different views must not be familiar with them? This is not a helpful approach to things.

I'm going to skip your comparison to creationism other than to note that insulting comparisons really aren't helpful, and that if you think I'm making any form of argument that amounts to one of personal incredulity you really need to reread what I've wrote.

Theism is also backed by some professional philosophers, and that includes a majority of phil religion people. Should I pay attention to theism?

You can't claim to know theism is false unless you can refute the best arguments for it. Where do you go for those? (Do you think of theists as some sort of Bad people that no one should associate with in case it's inferiors

Ok. This is exactly what you don't seem to be getting. There are plenty of people out there who've spent massive amounts of time for all sorts of arguments for theism- there's a strong incentive over literally thousands of years for people to come up with good arguments for it. And the arguments that are thrown around today are the same things thrown around a hundred or two hundred years ago or more, cosmological arguments, design arguments, ontological argument, etc. You have the language dressed up to the point where they try to do things like make the arguments look more sophisticated (like Platinga and others trying to use modal logic in the ontological argument). But at a certain point, after enough study of these arguments, it gets to the point where one can say that if there were a genuinely convincing argument it would have shown up at some point. If someone introduces what looks like a genuinely novel argument and not just ontological argument iteration 552, I'll take a look. As to your second sentence, it is obnoxious and irrelevant: I've made no comment at all about "associating" with theists as being bad, or that they are inferior, and your implications that there is something like that going on is not conducive to a productive conversation.

One doesn't need to be a neurologist to know that classical libertarianism

What do you mean by classical libertarianism?

Something like the naive versions of free will espouses by most of the general population when they mean free will- it has a mix of interaction dualism and a notion that choices are being made by irreducible ontologica mental entities.

prior discussion

No different in content to the percent discussion

As a guess, I suspect you mean "recent" rather than percent (are you typing with some sort of autocorrect? None of the letters in "recent" are near "p" on a standard QWERTY keyboard). In any event, simply asserting that rather than actually discussing the linked prior discussion is not helpful. I note that you incidentally completely dropped my point to Unger's work- so let's be clear here, we're talking about a professional analytic philosopher who essentially sees the same problems in question.

That 70% of a major discipline consistently get such a basic question wrong and the rest of the philosophers are taking them even remotely seriously as a discipline shows a major part of the problem.

My epistemology is that ideas are true, when they are true for reason, and in offer to find out whether p or not p is true, you look at the best arguments on both sides. Therefore , you need arguments on both sides. Like a trial where the prosecution and defence put forward their best cases, even though one of them must be wrong.

You epistemology seems to be that there is a list of things that are Wrong for no Particular Reason, and that none should argue for thing that are Wrong...and that "knowing" what is right .or wrong is a a matterof reading them of the Lists

It is generally not a sign of a productive conversation where one feels a need to not just insult a strawman of someone's argument but apparently their entire epistemological approach. Therefore, unless you have something really interesting to say in any reply, this is going to be my last reply in this subthread. (I hope! There are of course, always problems with that).

It may surprise you that our epistemological frameworks are more similar than you think, and that people can disagree with you without having an epistemological framework that is utterly wrong.

The issue you seem to be missing is that there's a point where the best arguments or best evidence for a position is weak enough that further investigation is not warranted. To use your trial analogy, at a certain point the trial is over- if there's some sort of substantial new evidence then maybe a new trial will occur, but we don't need to spend time on every single question. And even you believe that- I suspect for example that you aren't searching out for the best arguments for flat earthism or hollow earthism (you can find sincere proponents of both on the internet), and in terms of philosophy, I suspect you aren't spending much time looking for the best arguments for Aristotle's four causes or Heraclitus's claim that all is fire. So, the problem is that many philosophers are doing essentially that sort of thing, and it is worth noting that they are doing it the most for things like free will and A-time where there are basic human psychological reasons to want to believe they are true.

Despite my earlier request you haven't given any expansion at all of what your testable theory of free will is. Are you going to discuss it or not?