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bramflakes comments on Open thread, 30 June 2014- 6 July 2014 - Less Wrong Discussion

4 Post author: DanielDeRossi 30 June 2014 10:58AM

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Comment author: bramflakes 01 July 2014 12:22:53AM 1 point [-]
Comment author: ChristianKl 01 July 2014 09:56:52AM 2 points [-]

The article seems to miss the point many times.

I think a useful definition of empathy describes it as the ability to feel what another person is feeling.

It for example says: "With social relations expanding beyond the circle of close kin, kinship obligations were no longer enough to ensure mutual assistance and stop free riding. There was thus selection for pro-social behavior, i.e., a spontaneous willingness to help not only kin but also non-kin."

Group selection is not a well accepted phenomena. Especially for a short timeframe of 10,000 years.

Furthermore the author shies away from going outright to the logical conclusions. If the author thinks that those people in towns evolved to have more empathy, that basically means that Black people have less empathy than white people. Is that what the author is arguing? That's certainly an interesting claim.

The author doesn't seem to be aware of the tradeoff between dominance and empathy. More testosterone equals more dominance and makes people less empathic. Given differences in penis size and some studies, Blacks might have higher testosterone than Whites. Of course that's a highly controversial debate.

Comment author: bramflakes 01 July 2014 11:06:06AM *  1 point [-]

I don't think it's arguing for group selection, more as empathy as an adaption for understanding the mental states of other people so that you could better navigate reciprocal social obligations. So long as effective mechanisms existed to punish free riders, it would be a beneficial adaption.

I think.

Comment author: ChristianKl 01 July 2014 11:11:20AM 0 points [-]

I don't think it's arguing for group selection, more as empathy as an adaption for understanding the mental states of other people so that you could better navigate reciprocal social obligations.

Then why use the word "selection"?

Comment author: bramflakes 01 July 2014 11:13:24AM 0 points [-]

Because it was selected?

Comment author: ChristianKl 01 July 2014 03:20:35PM 0 points [-]

What kind of process do you mean with selection if you don't mean group selection?

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 01 July 2014 05:08:09PM 1 point [-]

Regular old natural selection? Behaving socially benefitted the individual. Doing things for other people didn't just help them - it got their help in return.

Comment author: ChristianKl 01 July 2014 08:39:40PM 1 point [-]

The argument the article made was that empathy reduces free riding. Engaging in free riding almost per definition doesn't produce disadvantages for the individual who engages in free riding.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 02 July 2014 04:43:13AM 2 points [-]

It does if others have adaptations for punishing free-riders, or for rewarding non-free-riders.

Comment author: ChristianKl 02 July 2014 08:57:37AM 0 points [-]

Punishing free-riders isn't what I would consider under empathy. I would think that highly dominate people with a lot of testosterone will rather engage in punishing free-riders than empathic people.

Comment author: bramflakes 01 July 2014 06:28:56PM 0 points [-]

... normal selection?