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gjm comments on Downvote stalkers: Driving members away from the LessWrong community? - Less Wrong Discussion

39 Post author: Ander 02 July 2014 12:40AM

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Comment author: gjm 02 July 2014 12:46:23PM 12 points [-]

I suggest that whether they're banned or not, unless they do provide a very good explanation their identity and a description of the mass-downvoting they've done should be posted on LW, and (if anyone has the bandwidth to do it) mass-downvoting should be exposed when it's done in the future, and it should be known that it will be.

Because otherwise the obvious response to "hey, we're banning you for abusing the system" is "OK, thanks. I'll make another account.".

Comment author: Tenoke 02 July 2014 03:11:33PM 6 points [-]

Because otherwise the obvious response to "hey, we're banning you for abusing the system" is "OK, thanks. I'll make another account.".

I don't necessarily disagree, but given that the offender will lose > 9k Karma, and will have to grind a bit to be able to keep mass-downvoting, I'd say it is more than a trivial inconvenience.

Comment author: ialdabaoth 03 July 2014 01:13:19PM *  6 points [-]

The person in question has got Rationality Quotes karma-mining down to a science. Ban them, and they'll be back up to 5K karma on their new account within weeks.

HEY! Suggestion:

Can the Rationality Quotes threads be pulled off into their own section, where upvotes and downvotes still happen but don't affect the user's karma?

This makes sense for multiple reasons:

  • you shouldn't get karma for just quoting things someone else said, without analysis or context; if you can't be original, at least be relevant/topical.

  • it prevents karma-mining.

  • it keeps the Rationality Quotes threads from turning into a distracting meta-game.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 03 July 2014 09:14:48PM 1 point [-]

it prevents karma-mining.

So that's the trick!

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 02 July 2014 03:50:14PM *  6 points [-]

You only need maybe 10 karma to be able to significantly hurt new users.

Maybe there should be some treshold, e.g. 100 karma before you can downvote. And then, you can downvote as much as you can today. This probably could be done by one "if" line in the code.

We need downvoting, but we don't quite need to have new users able to destroy other new users.

Comment author: Jinoc 02 July 2014 05:40:57PM 1 point [-]

Actually, I was wondering about this: do we need downvoting ?

I mean, is there a discussion somewhere on the relative merits of up/down-voting versus upvoting only ?

Comment author: Nornagest 02 July 2014 07:25:06PM *  10 points [-]

is there a discussion somewhere on the relative merits of up/down-voting versus upvoting only ?

Yes, it came up here the last time someone made a Discussion post about retributive downvoting. Not to toot my own horn, but I feel I outlined some reasonable issues with that plan in my response.

(Short version: I feel that upvote-only systems encourage cliques and pandering, neither of which align well with LW's culture or goals.)

Comment author: Jinoc 03 July 2014 04:09:52PM 1 point [-]

Thank you !

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 02 July 2014 10:46:06PM 2 points [-]

I think downvoting is good to have, but I'm not at all sure that we need downvoting to below 0.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 July 2014 08:04:25AM 11 points [-]

That depends on the comment. Some comments display so much ignorance, that they deserve to be downvoted and hidden.

Imagine a new user, who would just assert that theory of relativity is wrong, and provide their own "theory" based on some mumbo-jumbo or misunderstanding of the basic concepts of physics. That specific comment deserves to be downvoted below zero. It is not a spam, it is not offensive, so it should not be reported to moderators. It is just too stupid. Zero is for the "meh" comments, this would be below that level.

This is different from mass-downvoting all comments of other users because someone does not agree with them for political reasons.

It seems to me that many people are thinking in a direction "design a system that cannot be abused, and it will not be abused". But anything can be abused. Imagine that we would adopt a system with upvotes only, and then we would have a separate button for "report spam". Would this be safe against abuse? A malicious user could decide to mass-report all comments of their political enemies as spam. And then, what? If the spam reports are handled automatically, it would mean that new users would suddenly find themselves blocked by the system and their comments removed. (We could make the algorithm to remove the comment only if three users report it as spam; and then the abuser creates two sockpuppet accounts.) Or if the reports are not handled automatically, then some moderator must spend hours reading them and clicking "no, this is not a spam". At that moment, wouldn't it be just much simpler to ban the offender? Or perhaps remove from them specifically the ability to report spam? Analogically, we can ban the user now, or perhaps make a change that will prevent this specific user from downvoting.

At this moment, there is just one specific user abusing the system. Most of the debates about whether downvotes are bad, are started by their actions. Spending energy to redesign the whole system, which works okay for N-1 users, instead of banning the 1 disruptive user, that's a waste of everyone's time.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 03 July 2014 10:36:44AM 7 points [-]

I am now convinced that going negative is useful.

Comment author: Dentin 03 July 2014 02:59:51PM 1 point [-]

What about requiring a karma payment to downvote negative?

Comment author: Squark 02 July 2014 06:48:58PM -2 points [-]

Personally, I'm in favor of a system similar to stackexchange: a comment cannot be downvoted but can be "flagged as inappropriate" to draw moderator attention.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 02 July 2014 07:19:49PM 2 points [-]

Realistically, considering how much time does it take to change anything about LW software, I don't see it as likely.

But I can imagine that this system could work if we had multiple moderators. I mean, so the website would not be completely abandoned if one moderator spends a day offline. Also, to provide the moderators some kind of plausible deniability, so they wouldn't feel they start a personal conflict with someone whenever they remove a comment.

Comment author: Squark 03 July 2014 07:28:07AM 0 points [-]

Regarding changes to LW software, I think the process can be improved if the persons responsible will allow LWers with coding skills to volunteer their time.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 03 July 2014 10:16:05AM 5 points [-]

It's open source, and contributions (at least on some issues) are welcome.

Comment author: Squark 07 July 2014 06:35:04PM 0 points [-]

jackk, Vladimir, thx for commenting!

I think those links should be on the main page to be easier to discover.

Comment author: jackk 03 July 2014 07:39:27AM 3 points [-]

Part of my job is to review pull requests.

Comment author: Nornagest 02 July 2014 07:17:30PM *  1 point [-]

That depends on two things we don't have: (a) an active mod community that's reasonably large in proportion to the userbase, and (b) a culture that accepts and ideally applauds an authoritarian approach to dealing with trolls and other assorted troublemakers.

Having the button without having the support for it is useless at best, and at worst can be actively counterproductive by creating an expectation that the mods can't possibly meet, or by encouraging an adversarial relationship between mods and users. Scott Alexander's got a similar system going over at slatestarcodex (which, to be fair, is excellent in terms of top-level content, and above average in terms of commentariat as long as you don't mind the occasional insane diatribe), and it doesn't seem to be doing a very good job of deterring the type of commentary it was instituted to prevent.

Comment author: Squark 03 July 2014 07:25:26AM -1 points [-]

We can set up a system in which mods are elected. This might provide a sufficient amount of mods and wouldn't be authoritarian.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 03 July 2014 10:06:37AM 3 points [-]

Does anyone have experience with a board that elects its mods?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, though it seems like it's got some interesting complications, such has who gets to vote and keeping the voting honest-- I've just only been on boards where the mods were chosen from the top.

Comment author: Khoth 03 July 2014 12:21:30PM 3 points [-]

I've seen a board occasionally elect a moderator (with other mods appointed). The resulting drama was way too high for whatever benefits the election may have had.

Comment author: Nornagest 03 July 2014 04:36:46PM *  2 points [-]

Formal elections are rare, but vague consensus processes (along the lines of "anyone who cares can nominate a mod; we'll pick whoever gets the most nods as long as they aren't blatantly electioneering") seem pretty common. Honestly I think I'd prefer the latter to the former.

Comment author: Squark 07 July 2014 06:36:45PM 0 points [-]

AFAIK, Wikipedia and StackExchange use elected mods. They don't seem to be faring too bad.

Comment author: Dentin 03 July 2014 02:57:56PM 1 point [-]

It's possible to make hundreds of karma with minutes of effort simply by copy/pasting somebody else's awesome quote into a monthly quote thread. The amount of grinding required is paltry, and not at all a stumbling block to persistent offenders.

Comment author: ThisSpaceAvailable 03 July 2014 02:52:09AM 0 points [-]

By "identity", I take it you mean not merely the user name, but whatever other identifying information the mods have? I don't understand how your second paragraph follows from your first. What is your motive for wanting the information released? If it's retribution, that has nothing to do with your second paragraph. I don't see a deterrence value, since anyone concerned about keeping their information private to avoid downvote stalking will presumably just not use their actual information in registering in the first place. I don't see a preventative justification, either; if the mods can verify identity, they should just block any new account from that person, and if they can't verify identity, then how is this an answer to people making new accounts?

Comment author: gjm 03 July 2014 06:38:10PM 0 points [-]

I meant the user name, not any other information the moderators may have.

The second paragraph is intended to follow from the first because:

  • I expect posting information about mass-downvoting to reduce its effectiveness, because
    • people will feel less bothered by getting lots of downvotes if they know they come from a low-quality mass-downvoter
    • readers who know that A has been mass-downvoting B will be aware of that when looking at B's comments and may discount downvotes on them accordingly.
  • I expect posting information about mass-downvoting to reduce its attractiveness, because
    • prospective mass-downvoters will anticipate getting exposed, with likely consequences for their own reputation (and in particular their ability to amass the karma they need for the mass-downvoting).
  • I expect the promise of future exposure to inhibit mass-downvoting by a further mechanism:
    • prospective mass-downvoters will fear that they may get not only exposed but banned, which would (at least) be an inconvenience.