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CellBioGuy comments on [LINK] Claustrum Stimulation Temporarily Turns Off Consciousness in an otherwise Awake Patient - Less Wrong Discussion

34 Post author: shminux 04 July 2014 08:00PM

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Comment author: CellBioGuy 04 July 2014 08:10:31PM 4 points [-]

This reminds me of 'absence seizures', something that's been reported for a long time:

http://www.epilepsy.com/learn/types-seizures/absence-seizures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absence_seizure

http://www.webmd.com/epilepsy/guide/understanding-absence-seizure-basics

Simple absence seizures: During a simple absence seizure, a person usually just stares into space for less than 10 seconds. Because they happen so quickly, it’s very easy not to notice simple absence seizures — or to confuse them with daydreaming or not paying attention.

Complex absence seizures: During a complex absence seizure, a person will make some kind of movement in addition to staring into space. Movements may include blinking, chewing, or hand gestures. A complex absence seizure can last up to 20 seconds.

Comment author: shminux 04 July 2014 08:59:57PM 1 point [-]

Right, it seems similar. However, the memory of absence seizures is partially retained, so consciousness is not necessarily completely off:

while verbal responses were very often interrupted during seizures, some patients recalled questions or commands given during a seizure, and responded appropriately after the seizure ended

See also this review:

electrical stimulation of the claustrum, in a conscious patient with intractable complex partial epilepsy undergoing a preoperative investigation, produces a clinical state of immobility and complete lack of interaction with the environment, but retainment of some automatic movements, quite similar to cases of partial complex seizures.

Comment author: XiXiDu 05 July 2014 08:25:06AM 2 points [-]

...memory of absence seizures is partially retained, so consciousness is not necessarily completely off..

Might be a stupid question, but why do we assume that unconsciousness must be accompanied by memory loss? Do all animals have consciousness ? If not, are they unable to retain memory?

Comment author: gwern 05 July 2014 03:51:10PM *  3 points [-]

'unconsciousness' isn't really a good word to take literally as a negation of 'being conscious'. Taken literally, an animal is 'unconscious' when it's asleep, you've hit it on the head really hard, shot it with a tranq, and it's awake and hunting...

That said, there's still a bit of question about the relationship between memory and consciousness in humans. See the suggestive mentions of trauma & PTSD-like symptoms in http://lesswrong.com/lw/8wi/inverse_pzombies_the_other_direction_in_the_hard/

Comment author: Clarity 24 August 2015 11:34:17AM 0 points [-]

Every one of my PTSD symtoms appears to be in remission except scanning, which may just be due to a paranoid personality. PTSD symptoms emrergen when I swell on them in therapy though...so Im not going to do that. Not cause of avoidance coping just caus I don't need to bother with that. It's the past.

Comment author: tut 05 July 2014 10:14:00AM 3 points [-]

why do we assume that unconsciousness must be accompanied by memory loss?

If you weren't conscious at a time, then you didn't experience whatever happened at that time, and so you didn't have any opportunity to form a memory of it in the first place.

Do all animals have consciousness?

It would surprise me to find out that at least some mammals and birds were not conscious.

are they unable to retain memory?

We don't know if animals who can't talk have memories in the relevant sense. When people talk about animals retaining memories what they are talking about is conditioned responses. But conditioned responses can survive retrograde amnesia, and people with anterograde amnesia can form new conditioned responses.

Comment author: David_Gerard 05 July 2014 12:31:42PM 1 point [-]

If you weren't conscious at a time, then you didn't experience whatever happened at that time, and so you didn't have any opportunity to form a memory of it in the first place.

You sure about that?

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 05 July 2014 01:29:36PM 1 point [-]

Turtle appears to be conscious

Comment author: pinyaka 06 July 2014 12:55:28AM 0 points [-]

I don't think it's a stupid question. From my perspective, I have remembered things that I didn't notice consciously at the time such as the location of my wife's car keys. I don't remember their presence grabbing my attention, but later I am able to recall the last place I saw them. Not being a neurologist, I don't see a reason why shutting down the awareness part of the brain would also shut down the sensory processing and commitment of said processing to memory.

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