= 27d567bc2d48d9f40e9ccc20ea370b15)
Viliam_Bur comments on Open thread, 25-31 August 2014 - Less Wrong Discussion
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
= 783df68a0f980790206b9ea87794c5b6)
Loading…= b715d02e85f7b3b4ae65ca3d3e450868)
Subscribe to RSS Feed
Powered by Reddit
= f037147d6e6c911a85753b9abdedda8d)
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (227)
Hi Viliam,
thanks for your interesting and thoughtful response. Possibly I should have used another example. There are other, more clearcut cases in e.g. the postmodernist tradition, but I wanted someone more well-known.
The reason I chose him was not to signal loyalty to the STEM tribe, but rather because he is taken to be a textbook example of irrationality by Popper and Gellner, two of my favourite philosophers. Popper claimed that Freud's theories were unfalsifiable and that for any possible event E, both E and not-E was standardly taken to confirm his theories. This is inconsistent with probability theory, as pointed out in "Conservation of Expected Evidence" (which is a very Popperian post). The reason Freud and his followers (I think that some people have thought that some of his followers were actually worse on this point than Freud) did this mistake (if they did) presumably was confirmation bias (falsificationism can be seen as a tool to counter confirmation bias).
There is a huge literature on whether this claim is actually true. I have read Freud and Gellner's (to my mind very interesting) book on psycho-analysis, as well as some of Popper's texts on the topic, so I'm not merely repeating ideas I've heard from others. That said, I don't know the subject well enough to go into a detailed discussion of your claims. Also, it's sort of tangential to the topic. My point was not to bash Freud - that was so to say a side-effect of my claim.
Regarding your historical claims, I think that it's very hard to establish who introduced nebolous ideas such as Freud's tripartite model of the mind. Some claim that Plato's theory of the mind foreshadowed it. Gellner claims that all good original ideas in Freud are taken from Nietzsche. I don't know enough of the topic to determine whether any of these claims are true, but in order to establish whether they are, or whether Freud really was as significant and original as you claim, one would need to take a deep plunge into the history of ideas.
For the record, that long comment was not completely directed to you; it was something I have already thought should be written, and reading your comment was simply the moment when my inaction changed to action.
People are full of biases and rationalizations, and if you give them a theory which says "actually, other people often don't even know what happens in their own minds", well, that can hurt them regardless of whether the theory is true. And yes, this is what most amateur "psychologists" do after seeing "psychoanalysis" done on TV and learning the relevant keywords. And I guess not a few professional psychologists are not better than this. And yes, it made it difficult to argue against Freud in cases he was wrong.
Still, as I wrote, he was capable of changing his mind. And other psychoanalysts later disagreed on some topics. But without proper scientific method we can't be sure that these changes really were improvements, as opposed to random drift ("I am a high-status psychoanalyst, so I will signal it by adding my random opinion to our set of sacred beliefs").
Some parts of psychoanalysis make predictions; the problem is that unlike in physics, humans can react in many different ways. It's like a black-box testing where each "box" is internally wired differently. We do have a prediction that a dream will contain a censored version of a suppressed desire. And it feels like it should be testable. But how specifically will the desire be censored? Uhm... this depends on the specific person, on what associations they have, so again we can suspect than any result could be "explained" as some form of censorship of something.
According to wikipedia Popper compared Freud with Einstein, as two people living in the same era, whose scientific rigor was completely different. Yeah, there was a huge difference. There was also a huge difference in the amount and quality of data they had, the available tools, the complexity of the studied objects, and the general waterline of sanity in their fields. (Again, "it's magic" and "people actually don't think" were the respected alternative theories. Imagine starting in a similar position in physics.)
Like I said, there is a huge discussion on this issue in the philosophy of science. My guess is that most of your arguments above have already been discussed extensively.
Grünbaum's book is considered a classic on the subject and might be a place to start (I haven't read it, though Gellner refers a lot to it). He is critical of psycho-analysis but rejects Popper's view of it as a pseudo-science.