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army1987 comments on "NRx" vs. "Prog" Assumptions: Locating the Sources of Disagreement Between Neoreactionaries and Progressives (Part 1) - Less Wrong Discussion

6 Post author: Matthew_Opitz 04 September 2014 04:58PM

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Comment author: [deleted] 07 September 2014 08:42:45PM 2 points [-]

An argument I think I've heard from some of the smarter progressives (but I may have built it myself as a steelman) is that older societies/cultures may have been optimized for older conditions, but technological change has far-reaching social consequences that make those optimizations no longer viable.

IIRC that's more or less what Scott said near the end of his anti-reactionary FAQ. (That's also my position, except in most cases I'd weaken it to ‘probably no longer optimal’.)

The typical example seems to be birth control making sex outside marriage viable, but I must have heard it in a different context, since it clearly fails in that one.

Whut? Is northern sub-replacement fertility just because people aren't having sex?

STDs.

Condoms.

Comment author: Azathoth123 07 September 2014 08:56:43PM 7 points [-]

Condoms.

Condoms have existed since ancient Egypt so they aren't new technology that the culture hasn't had a chance to adept to yet. In fact the way cultures tend to adept to condoms is by proscribing their use.

Comment author: [deleted] 08 September 2014 04:33:08PM 3 points [-]

How recent are STD-preventing condoms?

(Not that condoms can prevent all STDs, of course: "A greater level of protection is provided for the diseases transmitted by genital secretions. A lesser degree of protection is provided for genital ulcer diseases or HPV because these infections also may be transmitted by exposure to areas (e.g., infected skin or mucosal surfaces) that are not covered or protected by the condom." (source))

Comment author: Azathoth123 09 September 2014 12:04:03AM 1 point [-]

How recent are STD-preventing condoms?

Don't know, although I don't see why cotton or sheepskin condoms would be significantly less effective than modern ones. If the condom can stop the sperm, it can stop whatever else is in the semen.

Comment author: kalium 09 September 2014 02:56:48AM 6 points [-]

No, a sperm cell is very substantially larger than a virus particle. Lambskin condoms have not been shown to be effective at blocking virus transmission.

Comment author: MathiasZaman 10 September 2014 08:57:21AM 5 points [-]

Not that I don't believe you, but would you happen to have a source I could use for further reference?

Comment author: kalium 12 September 2014 02:38:33AM 1 point [-]

Failing to find an actual paper that does more than mention in passing that they-re not shown effective - it just gets treated as common knowledge. Wikipedia's condom article references "Boston Women's Health Book Collective (2005). Our Bodies, Ourselves: A New Edition for a New Era. New York, NY: Touchstone. p. 333. ISBN 0-7432-5611-5."

Here's a nifty visualization of the scales involved: Cell Size and Scale

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 08 September 2014 05:30:17PM 0 points [-]

And not society has ever really practiced 100% for-life monogamy.

Everybody has abundant evidence that the world is an imperfect place, and everything in it, but we still keep coming up with these black-and-white theories.

Comment author: Azathoth123 09 September 2014 12:01:37AM 7 points [-]

And not sic society has ever really practiced 100% for-life monogamy.

But many societies have held 100% for-life monogamy as something you should do.

To put it another way, no society has ever had a murder rate of 0%, but that doesn't mean we should declare murder acceptable.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 09 September 2014 10:20:58AM 1 point [-]

I was responding to a point about viability.