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ChristianKl comments on Open thread, September 15-21, 2014 - Less Wrong Discussion
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I don't think it's a coincidence that progressives around 1900 called the method of taxation they favored progressive taxation.
I haven't said something about objections in principle, my statement was much weaker.
More to the point, I expect that a bunch of people on LW are pro-new-technology but that's not true for the average left person and pretending that being pro-new-technology is something that's an essential feature of progressive thought in the 21st century ignores the political realities.
On the other hand it was an essential feature of progressive thought 50 years ago. In Marx idea of history, it's a natural law that history moves in the right direction.
The OED's earliest citation for the term "progressive" in reference to taxation is from Thomas Paine's "Rights of Man" in 1792. Its first citation referring to a person who favours political or social change or reform is from 1830. It's possible that the latter meaning is older than 1792 (explanation on request) but, to say the least, it doesn't appear that the term "progressive" as a description for taxation systems that tax richer people more dates from "around 1900" or was chosen by people who identified themselves as "progressives" in anything like the modern US sense.
I agree. I rather doubt that anyone -- at least anyone using "progressive" in its current US-political sense -- actually thinks otherwise, despite RichardKennaway's remark above. (In any case, it seems clear from what he wrote that he doesn't himself identify as progressive, and his description of progressives' thought processes doesn't appear to be the result of a serious attempt to understand them sympathetically.)
Google NGram does show an uptick over that time period for "progressive taxation". It's the time known as the Progressive Era
Have you read Moldbug? I do think that Moldbug argues that progressivism is about favoring the new. Cthulhu always swims left.
On LW there are a bunch of people that don't actually agree with Moldbug about wanting to reinstate monarchy but who still accept Moldbug way of thinking about issues. It's the problem with history. Moldbug tell his history about the progressives of the progressive era and then proclaims that today's left thought (the thought of the cathedral) is the same.
So much the worse for Moldbug, at least if he makes a strong claim along those lines rather than something weaker and less controversial like "people who identify as progressive tend to be more positive about new things than people who identify as conservative".
But I haven't devoted a lot of time or thought to Moldbug, or to neoreaction generally.
I'm slightly lost track of what, if anything, we are actually disagreeing about here. I think it may at this point simply be about why various words have the definitions they do, which probably isn't something that's worth putting much further effort into.
You said you doubt that anybody thinks otherwise. I wanted to illustrate that there are people who do think otherwise. That's means talking about the issue matters.
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough: What I've largely lost track of is what "the issue" actually is. I do understand that at this particular point in the thread we're talking about whether and to what extent progressivism is about liking new things. But I've forgotten (and haven't much motivation to go back and figure out) why -- if at all -- that question is relevant to anything that matters. I'm pretty certain (and I'd guess you agree) that on the whole being a "progressive" (in the sense in which that term's used in present-day US politics) is about other things more than it's about liking new things.
Understanding the political thought of the last few decades is useful and showing preconception to be wrong is also useful. Particularly it's useful to understand that the relationship of self identified progressives towards liking new things changed in the last 50 years.
I confirm that this is accurate.
And I stand corrected that the virtue of newness in progressive thinking has got old, while the word "progressive" persists. What do they think of "progress" these days? "You can't stop progress" was the saying back then. I haven't heard it uttered seriously for a long time, and if it's said at all, it's more likely to be as a criticism of the opposite side by imputing it to them. First relevant Google hit here.