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dspeyer comments on Rationality Quotes October 2014 - Less Wrong Discussion

4 Post author: Tyrrell_McAllister 01 October 2014 11:02PM

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Comment author: dspeyer 02 October 2014 03:48:49PM *  2 points [-]

One of the things about the online debate over e-piracy that particularly galled me was the blithe assumption by some of my opponents that the human race is a pack of slavering would-be thieves held (barely) in check by the fear of prison sentences.

Oh, hogwash.

Sure, sure - if presented with a real "Devil's bargain," most people will at least be tempted. Eternal life. . . a million dollars found lying in the woods. . .

Heh. Many fine stories have been written on the subject! But how many people, in the real world, are going to be tempted to steal a few bucks?

-- Introducing the Baen Free Library, Eric Flint

(Which I can no longer find at Baen, but copies are scattered across the internet, including here)

Comment author: Salemicus 03 October 2014 09:38:09AM 9 points [-]

How many people, in the real world, are going to be tempted to steal a few bucks?

Quite a lot, in my experience. I've seen so many well-paid people fired for fiddling their expenses over trivial amounts. Eric Flint, as befits a fiction author, makes a rhetorically compelling case though!

Comment author: ChristianKl 03 October 2014 09:41:23AM 2 points [-]

Even more take home with them papers or pens from their workplace and don't get punished for it.

Comment author: gjm 03 October 2014 12:52:17PM 18 points [-]

Quite right, too.

Being able to take paper and pens home from the workplace to work is clearly useful and beneficial to the business. It's plainly not worth a business's time to track such things punctiliously unless its employees are engaging in large-scale pilfering (e.g., selling packs of printer paper) because the losses are so small. It's plainly not worth an employee's time to track them either for the same reason. (And similarly not worth an employee's time worrying about whether s/he has brought papers or pens into work from home and left them there.)

The optimal policy is clearly for no one to worry about these things except in cases of large-scale pilfering.

(In large businesses it may be worth having a formal rule that just says "no taking things home from the office" and then ignoring small violations, because that makes it feasible to fight back in cases of large-scale pilfering without needing a load of lawyering over what counts as large-scale. Even then, the purpose of that rule should be to prevent serious violations and no one should feel at all guilty about not keeping track of what paper and pens are whose. I suspect the actual local optimum in this vicinity is to have such a rule and announce explicitly that no one will be looking for, or caring about, small benign violations. But that might turn out to spoil things legally in the rare cases where it matters.)

Lest I be thought self-serving, I will remark that I'm pretty sure my own net flux of Stuff is very sizeably into, not out of, work.

Comment author: William_Quixote 03 October 2014 01:34:48PM 7 points [-]

This post is right on the money. Transaction costs are real and often wind up being deceptively higher than you anticipate.

Comment author: VAuroch 06 October 2014 04:13:55AM 1 point [-]

I suspect the actual local optimum in this vicinity is to have such a rule and announce explicitly that no one will be looking for, or caring about, small benign violations. But that might turn out to spoil things legally in the rare cases where it matters.

Including legal concerns, the local optimum is probably officially stating that response will be proportional to seriousness of the 'theft', with a stated possible maximum. This essentially dog-whistles that small items are free to take, without giving an explicit pass.

A better optimum might be what some tech company (I thought Twitter but can't find my source) that changed their policy on expense accounts for travel/food/etc. to 'use this toward the best interests of the company', to significant positive results. But some of the incentives there (in-house travel-agent arrangements are grotesquely inefficient) are missing here.

Comment author: gjm 07 October 2014 11:57:16AM 3 points [-]

I'm curious: why the downvote for the parent comment? It seems obviously not deserving of a downvote.

... Oh look, someone appears to be downvoting all VAuroch's comments. Dammit, this needs to stop.

Comment author: VAuroch 07 October 2014 10:16:25PM 0 points [-]

It's not nearly as bad as it used to be (I was one of Eugine_Nier's many targets), but yeah, it's frustrating.

Comment author: Larks 04 October 2014 02:31:08AM 2 points [-]

How is this a rationality quote? I can see people thinking this is a good argument, especially if you politically agreed with the author, but it doesn't seem to be about rationality, or demonstrating an unusually great deal of rationality

Comment author: sketerpot 04 October 2014 02:48:19AM 8 points [-]

It would definitely be a rationality quote if it went on to quote the part where Eric Flint decided to test his hypothesis by putting some of his books online, for free, and watching his sales numbers.

Comment author: DanielLC 04 October 2014 05:20:11PM 2 points [-]

Does he say what the results were anywhere?

Comment author: dspeyer 06 October 2014 09:08:59PM 7 points [-]

Huge success. Sales jumped up in ways that are hard to explain as anything other than the free library's effect.

Comment author: dspeyer 06 October 2014 09:14:17PM 3 points [-]

It expresses two ideas:

  • Reduction to incentives is such a useful hammer that it's tempting to think of the world as homo economus nails. Like all simplified models, that can be useful, but it can also be dangerously wrong.
  • It isn't very much information to say that people have a price. The real information lies in what that price is. It may be true to say "people are dishonest", but if you want to win, you need to specify which people and how dishonest.