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TheAncientGeek comments on A few thoughts on a Friendly AGI (safe vs friendly, other minds problem, ETs and more) - Less Wrong Discussion
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Maybe they are just less pessimistic.
It's not that non dualists don't.
Which is to say that physicalists accept consciousness and subjects so long as they are just matter doing stuff.
An eliminativist doesn't. Other physicalits do, and consider themselves proper.
That doesn't follow. Taking consciousness seriously isn't that exclusive. Even qualiaphobes don't think torture is OK.
Thanks for engagement on the philosophical side of things. I'll politely beg to differ on a couple of points:
Pessimism/optimism doesn't seem like an appropriate emotion for rational thought on the nature of universe or mind? Perhaps I misunderstand.
I fairly certain strict Monists don't believe in a subject as a metaphysical category the way Dualists do.
I don't think they do. For example, in the case of "subjective experience" they'd not regard the subjective part as meaningful in the way a Dualist does. Only Dualists see the subject and object as legitimate metaphysical categories - that's what the "Dual" in Dualism is!
There's plenty of other reasons for that beyond accepting the subject. It doesn't follow that opposition to torture implies belief in consciousness.
Again thanks for engaging on the philosophy, it is actually much appreciated.
I can (and do) believe that consciousness and subjective experience are things that exist, and are things that are important, without believing that they are in some kind of separate metaphysical category.
I understand, but I just want to urge you to examine the details of that really closely, starting with examining "consciousness"s place in Dualist thought. What I'm suggesting if many of us have got a concept from a school of thought you explicitly disagree with embedded in your thinking, and that's worth looking into. It's always alluring to dismiss things that run contrary to the existence of something we feel is important, but sometimes those rare times when we question our core values and thought that we make the most profound leaps forward.
I urge you to be less of a dismissive, lecturing dick when talking about consciousness.
What concept? The concept of consciousness or the concept of consciousness as fundamental?
Maybe we have a concept of consciousness because we are conscious.
Maybe we have a concept of gods because we are gods? It don't think that logic works. If someone is physicalist then they can't assume consciousness a priori. In which case, how can observation of brains and behaviours justify a concept like consciousness? The only way it can arise is out of a mind-body separation (Dualism).
Maybe we gave a concept of rocks, because there are rocks.
It isn't a question of all sentences of the form "we have a concept of X because X exists" being analytically true. It is a question of having evidence of specific things. The other minds problem is the other minds problem because we all have evidence of our own minds.
1 I am aware of my own consciousness
2 my own consciousness must be an outcome of the physical operation of my brain
3 similarly operating brains must be similarly conscious
See other post. Cheers for discussion.
I mean pessimism about the prospect of physicallisticaly explaining consciousness.
Materialists and physicalist don't believe in subjectivity and consciousness the way that dualism and idealists do...and that doesn't add up to only dualists believing in consciousness. What is unclear is why an AI would need to believe in consciousness in the way a dualist does,a s a separate ontological category, in order to be ethical.
I wouldn't say that AI needs to refer to consciousness at all to be ethical. I think it will be better if we design it without reference to the problematic concept, to be much safer. Consciousness is a pretty deeply embedded word in our culture's thinking, so much that we don't remeber the philosophical context in which it is derived. I just want to get people to ask, where does the concept come from? Until people decide to ask that, this is probably all crazy talk to them.
I can't claim to have read every one's thought ever, so perhaps someone claiming to be a Monist believes that, but I do know you can't both be a Monist and believe in a Mind-Body duality. That's by definition. And I also know you can't justify something along the lines of "consciousness" from observation of people's behaviour and brains - if we do its because we're bringing the concept along with us as part of a Dualist perspective, or as part of latent Dualism. The only way you can establish a need for the concept is through Mind-Body separation - otherwise you've already got all the stuff you need to explain humans - brains, neurons, behaviours etc. The need to plonk "consciousness" on the top of all that is the latent Dualism I'm talking about in some Physicalists.
The reason a AI would have to believe in consciousness in a Dualist way is the same - because it will not be able to induct such a thing as a "consciousness" from observations. If somehow we managed to cram it in there and give the AI faulty logic, apart from the general unpredictability that implies (an AI with faulty logic?), the AI may realise the same philosophical problem at some point and classify itself or others as without consciousness (some variant of the other minds problem), thus rendering them to the same importance as paperclips or whatever else.
Nobody said otherwise. You keep conflating consciousness with ontologocally fundamental consciousness.
Justify which concept of consciousness? Justify how? We believe others are conscious because we are wired up to, via mirror neurons and so on. But that's a kind of compulsion. The belief can be justified in a number of ways. A physicalist can argue that a normally functioning brain will have a normal consciousness, because that us all that is needed, there is no nonphysical element to go missing. Dualism is no help at all to the other minds problem, because it posits an indetectable, nonphysical element that could go missing, leaving a zombie.
You are conflating consciousness as a posit needed to explain something else with consciousness as a phenomenon to explain. Whatever I believe, it seems to me that I am conscious, and that needs explaining.
Because observations can't give even probablistic support? Because the physicalist argument doesn't work? Because it wouldn't have a concept of consciousness? Because it isn't conscious itself?
About what? If it judged you to be conscious would it be making a mistake?
I'm saying that the only sound logic justifying belief in consciousness arises out of Dualism. (please note I'm not trying to convince you to be Monist or Dualist). Or to put it another way, Physicalism offers no justifcation for belief consciousness of either type.
If consciousness is a thing we should be able to forget about it, and then rederive the concept, right? So in that spirit, if you're Monist, ask yourself what was the point where you discovered or learnt about consciousness. What moment did you think, that thing there, let's call it a consciousness. You didn't look into a brain and find an organ or electrical pattern and then later decide to give it a name right? If you're like 99.99% of people, you learnt about it much more philosophically. Yet, if you're a Physicalist, your belief in objects is derived from empirical data about matter. You observe the matter, and identify objects and processes through that observation. Study of the brain doesn't yield that unless you bring the concept of consciousness along with you beforehand, so consciousness for Physicalists is really in the same class as other hidden objects which we also can imagine and can't disprove (I'm looking at you Loki/Zeus etc).
I'll leave it at that and let you get the last word in, because even if you're willing to consider this, I appear to be offending some other people who are becoming kinda aggressive. Thanks for discussion.
And I keep saying that being conscious means being aware that you are conscious, and that is empirical evidenceof consciousness.
I can abandon and then recover the concept of consciousness, because there is stuff of which I am aware, but which other people are not aware, stuff that is private to me, and "consciousness" is the accustomed label for the awareness, and "subjective" is the accustomed label for the privacy.
Metaphysical beliefs, physicalism and so on, are not relevant. What is relevant is where you are willing to look for evidence. Most physicalists are willing to accept the introspective evidence for consciousness. You seem to think that the concept of consciousness cannot be recovered on the basis of evidence, and what you seem to mean by that is that you cannot detect someone else's consciousness. You have implicitly decided that your own introspective, subjective first person evidence doesn't count. That's an unusual attitude, which is why you have ended up with a minority opinion.
I don't have external OR introspective evidence of Loki and Zeus. The fact that you consider consciousness to fall into the same category as Zeus is another indication of your disregard of introspection.
I want to reply so bad it hurts, but I'll resist thanks for the convo.
Yeah, well, replying could lead to updating or something crazy like that.
sigh I agree with that sentiment. However, conversations where parties become entrenched should probably be called off. Do you really feel this could end in opinions being changed? I perceive your tone as slightly dismissive - am I wong to think this might indicate non-willingness to move at all on the issue?
I don't mean to imply anything personal. I still feel you're overlooking an important point about the ideas you're referring to having fundamentally dualist foundations when you take a proper look at their epistemology. You refer to introspection but introspection (aside from in casual lay usage) is properly a Dualist concept - it implies mind-body separation, and it is not in any way empirical knowledge. Even more prominently the use of the word "subjective" is almost the definition of bringing Dualism into the discussion, because the subject in subjective comes directly from Descartes separation of mind and body.
If someone wishes to be Monist, wouldn't they start by not assuming Dualist concepts? They'd start with the reliable empirical evidence (neuroscience etc) and approach thought interaction as a interactions between internal brain states. They wouldn't conceptualise those interactions using Dualist terminology like "consciousness", at least in any discussion where there was precise science or important issues to be considered.
I thought this was a well explained and epistemologically straightforward part of my post. The general reaction has to me appeared to have been immediate rejection without questions or attempts at clarifications. Actually I'm disappointed that the part people mostly want to reject so utterly is the only part getting much attention. Every sense I get is that the people that have replied can't even consider the possibility that there is problem with the way consciousness is thought about in FAI discussions. That worries me, but I can't see the possiblity of movement at this point, so I'm not terribly enthusiastic about continuing this repeating over and over of the various positions. I'm happy to continue if you find the concept interesting, and I guess I'm at least getting comments, but if you feel that you've already made up your mind let's not waste any more time.