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advancedatheist comments on Open thread, Nov. 24 - Nov. 30, 2014 - Less Wrong Discussion

4 Post author: MrMind 24 November 2014 08:56AM

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Comment author: advancedatheist 24 November 2014 07:43:59PM *  2 points [-]

Another post I made to this AlterNet piece:

I can see why progressives want to discredit PUA coaches and belittle the men who seek their help, setting aside the question of these coaches' competence at doing what they advertise about themselves.

One, the PUA subculture promotes a politically incorrect view of women which sounds like the world view of traditional, conservative patriarchy, only read in reverse, so to speak: PUA coaches endorse the patriarchal view of women's weaknesses and vulnerabilities, and they teach men how to exploit these for sex by adopting the strategies of old-school cads. And I feel some sympathy for this view of women because to me women seem to have defective agency relative to men. If PUA coaches and writers can make a living with this message, perhaps their advice to men based on this traditional understanding of women has some validity after all.

And two, these men seek to improve themselves in an era of "You didn't build that" and the denigration of the self-made man. They've sought help in civil society and in the market instead of turning to the collectivist institutions created, maintained and thought-policed by progressives. They've rejected the progressive ethic of helplessness, dependency and victimization, in other words, in favor of the conservative ethic of self-reliance.

Comment author: bogus 24 November 2014 08:37:08PM 10 points [-]

PUA coaches endorse the patriarchal view of women's weaknesses and vulnerabilities, and they teach men how to exploit these for sex by adopting the strategies of old-school cads.

I think most pickup coaches would object to this point of view, and it might make some of them quite unhappy. PUAs teach strategies that they believe will increase your attractiveness to the opposite sex. But it's silly to see attraction as a "weakness" or "vulnerability". Many people (women included, of course) want to feel attracted in the first place, especially to someone with other good qualities - they just don't get to make that choice most of the time! That's the one sense in which 'reduced agency' could be said to be relevant - but it doesn't negate the fact that agency really is quite heavily involved in any kind of pickup.

Comment author: ChristianKl 25 November 2014 08:55:55AM 3 points [-]

If PUA coaches and writers can make a living with this message, perhaps their advice to men based on this traditional understanding of women has some validity after all.

There are a lot of quick success schemes sold with the same marketing that PUA products are sold. The fact that people are willing to pay money for a dream of quick success doesn't mean that they can deliver on the promise.

PUA is a quite complex topic.

Male anxiety is an issue, and I don't think that an expensive 3 to 4 day bootcamp normally fixes it. Neither does watching a 24 DVD set sold for 499$.

If I could either send a 18 year old to a tantra seminar or to a PUA seminar, I'm not sure that the PUA seminar is the one that gives the higher return as far as improving his success with the opposite sex.

And I feel some sympathy for this view of women because to me women seem to have defective agency relative to men.

The fact that you believe that might be the problem and illustrate lack of ability of dealing with women.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 25 November 2014 10:41:34AM 5 points [-]

Male anxiety is an issue, and I don't think that an expensive 3 to 4 day bootcamp normally fixes it. Neither does watching a 24 DVD set sold for 499$.

Irrationality is an issue, and I don't think that reading the Sequences normally fixes it. Neither does a 3-day rationality seminar for $3900.

Still, for some people it's a good option.

If I could either send a 18 year old to a tantra seminar or to a PUA seminar, I'm not sure that the PUA seminar is the one that gives the higher return as far as improving his success with the opposite sex.

I would expect different things working for different people.

The interesting thing is that the tantra seminar would not motivate people to write similar articles. Even if there is also no guarantee that it is something more than just someone's strategy to make money quickly.

Comment author: Lumifer 25 November 2014 04:51:48PM 2 points [-]

If I could either send a 18 year old to a tantra seminar

Tantra isn't really new-age exotic sex practices.

Comment author: ChristianKl 25 November 2014 05:26:38PM 2 points [-]

Wikipedia has little influence on what's practiced in a seminar with the headline tantra. At the same time of course it's not simply about the stereotype it has.

One element of tantra is for example strong eye contact. You can go to a PUA seminar and hear a lecture by a guy about holding eye contact. That often leads to guys going out and being uncalibrated. If you on the other hand learn eye contact in a tantra seminar the resulting behavior is likely much better calibrated.

Comment author: Lumifer 25 November 2014 05:39:22PM 3 points [-]

I feel we are using the word "tantra" in entirely different meanings.

Comment author: ChristianKl 25 November 2014 06:09:39PM 2 points [-]

I speak about the kind of event that's titled a tantra seminar and take my knowledge of what happens there from people I meet in meatspace who took part in such events.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 November 2014 11:55:18PM 3 points [-]

Well, what happens there?

Comment author: ChristianKl 26 November 2014 10:51:26AM 2 points [-]

That's a fair demand, but I don't want to go in too much detail on that point. There a lot of inferential distance in talking about New Age practices on LW and Tantra isn't a subject I studied deeply enough to be confident that I fully understand it's theory base.

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