= 27d567bc2d48d9f40e9ccc20ea370b15)
MazeHatter comments on What are the thoughts of Less Wrong on property dualism? - Less Wrong Discussion
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
= 783df68a0f980790206b9ea87794c5b6)
Loading…= b715d02e85f7b3b4ae65ca3d3e450868)
Subscribe to RSS Feed
Powered by Reddit
= f037147d6e6c911a85753b9abdedda8d)
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (34)
It seems to me that a physical phenomena is both physical and phenomenal.
I think the big problem is the word "physical"; loaded with meaning, highly deceptive. Physical just refers to a phenomena that we can describe with physics (conjectured mathematics tentatively accepted due to good fitness with observation).
I think any physical description of reality should leave out the word physical. It shouldn't be part of the argument. We in retrospect apply the adjective "physical" if there are mathematical models reliably predicting the out comes of experiments.
It also seems a bit peculiar to me that anyone calling themselves a rationalist would believe that the brain is primary to the mind. But I guess that's the world we live in.
Your perplexity perplexes me. Please elaborate.
Do you think the senses are some conduit from the world outside our mind into the world inside our mind?
As in, if you look at something, you are getting a somewhat faithful representation of the thing you are looking at?
For example, do you think your thumb is a part of fundamental reality?
In the source code for reality, is "polymathwannabe" or polymathwannabe's thumb?
I don't think so.
The source code just has a huge array of particles. The thumb is something a mind projects onto those particles. So is the brain.
A rationalist should be aware that their senses don't reveal reality to them, their rationality does by inventing theories based on stimuli.
Even if everything I perceive is a projection from my mind, it's not a random projection. Even if my senses are not transparent, their fabrications are not random. They make sense, follow logical rules, and are consistent with the assumption of an external world that matches those perceptions, and they're thus deserving of being taken seriously.
So you're saying, that in reality external to the mind, there is such a thing as a thumb?
It depends. Is there such a thing as sound?
In the external reality, there are quarks. My body is a particular set of (continually replaceable) quarks that more-or-less obeys my mind; besides, my mind has privileged access to the sensory inputs of this body, so it's justified to consider it as distinct from the rest of reality. A category like "thumb" is a shortcut entry that is very useful to refer to a subset of quarks that stay in a very specific, more-or-less constant configuration.
So, does my thumb exist? Yes, in the sense that a bird flock exists because some of them fly together.
Let's say we're talking about the source code of reality.
You and I seem to agree we could start somewhere like "var quarks = [...]".
My position is that there is no "flockofbirds" or "var polymathswannabe_thumb = "
Those a purely made by the mind.
Likewise, in reality, there is no "brain" or "brainstem" or "frontallobe", there is just "var quarks = []".
The brain is a product of a mind.
You have it backwards. Even though our image of the brain and all of the concepts associated with the semantic shortcut "brain" are mental fabrications, the mind itself is the product of a terribly complex arrangement of quarks which happen to exist within the physical boundaries that we conventionally call a brain.
That the mind exists within physical boundaries, (ie, quantitative material, temporal, or spatial relationships) has not been demonstrated.
The entire field of psychopharmacology rests on the assumption that the mind has a physical basis. Substances that alter the functioning of the brain will make your mind work differently. Also, brain lesions may severely limit what your mind can do. This very strongly suggests that the mind is not only experienced "through" the brain, but that it originates in the brain. Equally important evidence is the fact that nothing else affects the functioning of the mind; if you want to alter it, you need to tinker with the brain.