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James_Miller comments on February 2015 Media Thread - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: ArisKatsaris 01 February 2015 11:03AM

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Comment author: ArisKatsaris 02 February 2015 05:05:52AM 12 points [-]

And NATO pushing up to the borders of Russia isn't considered an aggressive move on the part of the USA, because ... ?

Because it wasn't NATO that "pushed up to the borders of Russia" it was the Eastern European countries that fled from Russia into NATO. Not a single NATO tank had to streamroll into those Eastern European countries for them to join . You'll note that none of those nations that joined NATO needed to be invaded and military occupied by NATO -- unlike what Russia is doing now, and unlike what Warsaw Pact did in the past.

Because if any of those countries ask to leave NATO, NATO will leave. However Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova are asking Russia to leave, and Russia isn't leaving.

Because the sovereign and independent Eastern European nations wanted to become part of NATO, and NATO tanks didn't need to force itself on a single nation, it was invited( a single country, nor change the borders, unlike Russia's military occupation of portions of Moldova, Georgia and Ukraine.

Because a NATO country like Poland isn't the one attempting to annex the western portions of Ukraine or Belarus or Russia.

Because when Greece has been recently openly allying itself with Russia, I don't see NATO troops from Italy or Albania or Bulgaria attempting to break apart portions of Greece.

Yay, for simple answers to simple questions.

Americans would feel threatened if say, Mexico joined the Warsaw Pact, no?

Yes, America also often used military imperialism in its attempt to stop Latin American countries from allying themselves with the Soviet Union, (e.g. the invasion at the Bay of Pigs).

So?

Comment author: James_Miller 02 February 2015 04:24:26PM 5 points [-]

You are looking at this from a moral viewpoint. The fact that many of Russia's neighbors would rather militarily associate with the U.S. than Russia is a cause of great insecurity for Russia and probably a big part of the reason Putin would like to gain military control of more territory. Putin would have less to worry about if the eastern European nations in NATO joined because they were forced to because then these countries would be weaker U.S. allies.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 02 February 2015 05:26:25PM 4 points [-]

You are looking at this from a moral viewpoint.

Clearly Aris has moral sentiments about the matter (who would not?), but he is presenting observable facts, such as who is sending men and materiel and who is not.

Putin would have less to worry about if the eastern European nations in NATO joined because they were forced to because then these countries would be weaker U.S. allies.

If they were forced to, that would imply a US more able and willing to force them, which cancels that out.

Putin clearly intends to exert all the pressure and take all the opportunities that he can to expand Russia's sphere of influence indefinitely, as did the former USSR. All else is tactics. As you said:

I think Putin wants to rebuild the Soviet Empire and is going to keep taking more territory until he encounters serious resistance