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Viliam_Bur comments on Open Thread, Feb. 2 - Feb 8, 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion

4 Post author: Gondolinian 02 February 2015 12:28AM

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Comment author: Parmenides 02 February 2015 04:52:12PM *  18 points [-]

Posting for the first time because I feel I could maybe use some help. [And yes, I know of the Welcome Thread, but I think the Open Thread gets more attention so I'm posting first here. Maybe later I'll post in the Welcome Thread.]

I come from a very religious family and community, but I'm a closet atheist. (More accurately, I'd label myself agnostic leaning atheist with regard to the existence of one or more intelligent world-designer(s), but I give almost no credence to any religious claims beyond that. In any case, for simplicity I'm just going to refer to myself here as an atheist.)

I have only a single very close friend who knows of my atheism. 5 or 6 other people know I disagree with all the standard religious arguments, but they think that I've opted for "blind faith" and I'm still religious. Most of my family and friends, however, although they know that I'm unusually open-minded and intellectual for my close-minded religious community (and they look at me a bit strangely for that), still think that I'm fully religious.

A bit of background: I started doubting in high school, but it didn't turn into a full-fledged crisis of faith until I was about 18 or 19. Eventually a religious mentor pointed me to Pascal's Wager, and I leaned on that for many years. I got married to a wonderful religious girl and went on to study advanced religious studies. Shortly before the birth of my third child, however, I finally took another critical look at Pascal's Wager. I read numerous scholarly works and articles, went through a bunch of articles on the internet (including several from LessWrong), and did a lot of heavy thinking. In the end I decided that I can't rely any longer on the Wager. For the next few months I forced myself to nonetheless believe by pure force of will (whether this was Belief in Belief or real belief is a different question), but eventually the cognitive dissonance grew too great and I gave up.

The problem is that I can't tell anyone. My wife would probably decide to follow me - but there's a chance she might not, and I love her way too much to risk losing her. Even if she did follow me it would cause her a tremendous amount of mental anguish which I really don't want to impose on her. She'd also likely not be able to keep that kind of secret from her friends and family for too long, and the pain of trying to keeping it secret would likely be even worse for her than it is for me. And if it did get out, then we'd risk losing virtually all of our (close-knit, wonderful, highly supportive) families and friends. And that's besides the terrible emotional effects that a revelation of this sort would have on my parents, kids, siblings, and friends.

I do have a few vague tentative plans for eventually being able to maneuver myself into a position where I can reveal my beliefs without too much of a risk, but that's only for the long term. For the short term I'm stuck with only a single friend who knows my true position.

The problem is that it's so hard! I hate keeping secrets from my wife. I hate having to bottle up my intellectual arguments (particularly because I'm the type whose favorite activity is a good intellectual discussion with friends). I hate having to fake prayers and fake interest in my friends' and family's religious discussions. But what am I to do? I'm stuck with no alternatives.

So what do I want from you, fellow readers of LessWrong? I don't know. Emotional support? Advice? Maybe a link to an organization I could contact (secretly, of course) or to some relevant online resources? Whatever you can think of, I guess. Or maybe I'm just venting my emotions.

ETA: Maybe I should be a bit more specific. My situation closely parallels this. I do not want to end up like that!

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 03 February 2015 09:07:50AM *  11 points [-]

I have never been in a situation similar to yours, so my advice may be wrong, but here it is anyway.

When people change their opinion, they sometimes go from one extreme to the opposite extreme, as if to make sure they would not drift back to their old position. But there is no need for sudden large changes. Unlike religious people, atheists do not have a duty to proselytize everyone to their non-belief. To put it bluntly, you are allowed to lie and deceive, if it is necessary for your survival. I do not support lying in general, because it has its cost, but sometimes telling the truth (at the wrong moment) has a much greater cost. The cost of lying is weakening the relationship with people you lie to. So I think you should try to be open with your wife (but be careful about your coming out), but lying to everyone else is an option.

When explaining how you feel, focus on the positive parts, not the negative parts. Rejecting religion is the negative part. It is not your terminal value to be non-religious. You probably still like some aspects of the religious culture; and that's okay. (Atheists are free to celebrate Christmas, if they choose to.) It's just that your positive values are understanding the world, being honest, etc. and religion happens to be incompatible with that. You are throwing religion away because the alternative would be throwing your curiosity or sanity away. If you are going to explain to someone the negative part, you should explain the positive part first (without even mentioning religion at the beginning). Only when they value the positive part, you should show them the conflict; then they may empathise.

Specifically, I think you should show your wife all the cool things you are interested in, starting with the noncontroversial ones. She does not have to like them all; different people have different preferences; but you may find something that is interesting for both of you. Then you have an enjoyable topic to talk about which is unconnected to religion. The more such topics you have, and the more time you spend debating them, the less time you spend debating religion, and the less role the religion plays at keeping you together. Then the impact of abandoning religion will be smaller. Just start with the simple stuff; do not go into "adversarial intellectual debate mode" you are probably using with your friends sometimes. Instead, be a guide in an intellectual adventure. For example, find some noncontroversial TED talks videos (not about religion, politics, evolution, global warming, or whichever topics are controversial in your religious community) and watch them together (maybe even with your children). Be the one who brings positive value, not the one who causes conflict.

You should be strategic about your social circle. I do not know the people around you, but I have read stories where people lost their whole religious community after coming out. You may have a few loyal friends who will stay with you regardless, but even those friends may be under pressure from their friends and families. You prepare strategically for this by creating new friends in advance. Preferably ones that your wife will like too. Every new friend who does not share your religion, is a friend who will not abandon you when you come out. To some degree, friendship is a question of spending time together, and having experiences in common. Essentially, you should manage your time to spend more time with people outside your religious community. (I hope they are available.) Again, bringing new nice people as friends is a positive step. Finding new interesting activities you and your wife could enjoy together, outside of your religious community, is also a positive step. You could take a family vacation outside of your community, with the new friends.

Shortly, build new bridges before you burn down the old ones. Treat everything related to your religious community as something you may lose, as something that may be used to blackmail you in the future, so do not invest in those things. Plan to minimize possible damage in the future.

Also, if you want your wife to support you, you also have to support her. Support her in all her dreams, help her explore the world. Be a team together. Make it obvious you would support her even where your religious community wouldn't.

Comment author: Jiro 03 February 2015 05:08:22PM 2 points [-]

Specifically, I think you should show your wife all the cool things you are interested in, starting with the noncontroversial ones.

Assuming that you don't already do this, doing this signals "I am trying to convince you of something which I don't want to talk about". People notice when you act in ways that you haven't before.