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Thecommexokid comments on Open thread, Feb. 9 - Feb. 15, 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion

6 Post author: MrMind 09 February 2015 09:12AM

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Comment author: Thecommexokid 12 February 2015 06:59:10AM *  4 points [-]

I have an exercise in "thinking about the problem for 5 minutes before proposing solutions" for everyone.

I am a member of a small group of physics graduate students in charge of a monthly series of public science lectures. The lectures are aimed at local high school students, and we have many high school teachers who encourage their students to attend by offering extra credit. The audience of each talk (typically around 100) is composed almost wholly of students who have come solely because they want a few extra points in chemistry or whatever.

In the current system, we prepare attendance sheets with school and teacher names on the top, and at the conclusion of the lecture, the students who want credit for attending come to the front of the hall and sign their name to the appropriate sheet to prove they were there. Then we photocopy these sheets for our records and mail the originals back to the teachers.

There are a number of issues with this system:

  • Students often don't pay attention to the top of the sheets (where the school and teacher are listed) and write their names on the wrong list.
  • Students who arrive to the lecture very late still receive credit for attending.
  • Unless watched very closely, students can sign the names of friends who did not attend in addition to their own name.
  • Even if watched very closely, they can still do this if they are clever enough to do one name at a time and then loop back around to the end of the line.
  • If many students from a single teacher's classes all attend, there is a huge pile-up at the end around a single sheet.

I am looking to design a new process to eliminate some of these issues. I have something particular in mind (which fixes most of these problems but generates a couple new ones) but I'd like to see what other people have to say.

Comment author: ChristianKl 12 February 2015 01:11:40PM 2 points [-]

I think an optimal system is resources are no issue is to have an app that allows the teacher to ask every student in attendance questions.

It creates makes the teaching process more interactive and it also requires attendance.

Comment author: Thecommexokid 12 February 2015 05:58:21PM 0 points [-]

I think an optimal system if resources are no issue

What resources would be required for this?

an app

On what platform? As I commented on another reply, many of our student attendees come from poor districts so I don't want to assume every student has a smartphone.

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 February 2015 12:28:31PM 0 points [-]

The cheapest android phone I can find seems to be sold for 32.17$ (Rs. 1,999) in India (http://gadgets.ndtv.com/mobiles/news/jivi-launches-cheapest-android-based-smartphone-in-india-at-rs-1999-594264).

On what platform?

Likely Android and IOS.

Comment author: Lumifer 13 February 2015 03:53:28PM 1 point [-]

The cheapest android phone I can find

The cheapest android phone you can find is used, a few years old, and your neighbour is selling it for 5 euros...

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 February 2015 04:52:57PM 0 points [-]

The cheapest android phone you can find is used, a few years old, and your neighbour is selling it for 5 euros...

I wouldn't know where to buy 100 phones for 5€ each.

Comment author: gjm 13 February 2015 01:51:29PM 0 points [-]

The Amazon reviews suggest that it's a really terrible phone.

(It's also worth noting that in many cases most of the cost of owning a smartphone isn't in the nominal price of the device but in what you pay for network service. If you buy that smartphone, how much more do you have to pay to make it actually connect to the internet?)

Comment author: ChristianKl 13 February 2015 04:08:48PM 1 point [-]

If you buy that smartphone, how much more do you have to pay to make it actually connect to the internet?)

I think most universities do have WLan in which devices can login.

The Amazon reviews suggest that it's a really terrible phone.

On Amazon.com there LG Realm for 40$ and Kyocera Event for 30$. The LG Realm has 4.4 out of 5 stars average on Amazon.

Comment author: Lumifer 13 February 2015 03:54:33PM 1 point [-]

Unless you treat that smartphone as not a phone, but a tiny computer. Wi-Fi is free, usually.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 12 February 2015 08:23:31AM *  1 point [-]

Some thoughts —

High schools have logos, mascots, school colors, and the like. Putting the school's logo on the sign-in sheet for that school might help students avoid signing the wrong one.

Students could use some other means to authenticate their attendance to their teacher — such as taking a selfie at the lecture (with the date on a piece of paper) and sending it to their teacher. Doesn't work for all students, though — not everyone can afford a phone.

Take a big group picture of the students in attendance and mail the picture to the teachers; let the teachers work it out. "Everyone who wants credit, stand up by the whiteboard with your classmates."

The late arrivals problem could be fixed by having the sign-in before the lecture. "If you would like to receive extra credit, you must show up 10 minutes early. If you don't, you will not get extra credit."

Hand out index cards (a different color each month) at the entrance. Each student who wants credit puts his or her name, school, and teacher's name on the card, then at the end of the lecture puts it in a box at the exit. (If there are several exits, have several boxes. If you're worried about box tampering, station a host at each exit if you have enough hosts. And yes, you have to bin the cards by school and teacher afterward.)

If the students have class the next day, stamp their hands with a hand-stamp with long-lasting ink. Then they just show up to class the next day and show the teacher they got the stamp.

Enlist one trustworthy student from each class to report their classmates' attendance.

Comment author: Thecommexokid 12 February 2015 09:26:26AM *  1 point [-]

Hand out index cards (a different color each month) at the entrance. Each student who wants credit puts his or her name, school, and teacher's name on the card, then at the end of the lecture puts it in a box at the exit. (If there are several exits, have several boxes. If you're worried about box tampering, station a host at each exit if you have enough hosts. And yes, you have to bin the cards by school and teacher afterward.)

This is, indeed, essentially the solution I had considered myself. I feel as though I still like it the best even after giving due consideration to your long list of ideas, which did include several ideas I had not thought of. (For instance, I really like the stamp idea; unfortunately our lectures are Saturday mornings at 10 a.m.) I like the cards because they penalize both late arrival and early departure. (Whereas putting the sign-up before the talk only reverses the problem.) And it makes it challenging to slip in the names of students who are not in attendance, because each student receives only one card.

Some issues and possible solutions, for further consideration:

  • Students will not know what to do with an index card handed to them at the door.
    • Possible solution: Use preprinted slips with labeled blanks for name, teacher, and school rather than blank cards.
    • Possible solution: Large instructions on the board indicating what to do.
  • Many students will not have a pen or pencil.
    • Possible solution: A box of 144 golf pencils looks to be very cheap.
  • It is more inconvenient to photocopy the attendance records before mailing them back when the names are all on individual cards.
  • Anyone who leaves the room and comes back in again (e.g. to go to the bathroom) before the lecture starts can get a second card.

And two things which are not problems individually, but are sort of tricky in combination:

  • There's an obvious exploit if the cards are identical every month. This is the reason you suggested different colors.
  • Requires a sufficient surplus of cards that we don't run out if attendance one month is much higher than average.
    • Not a problem by itself, but combined with the necessity of making them different every month, this leads to a lot of waste, since last month's leftovers can't be reused.
Comment author: Thecommexokid 12 February 2015 04:51:29PM *  1 point [-]
  • There's an obvious exploit if the cards are identical every month. This is the reason you suggested different colors.
  • Requires a sufficient surplus of cards that we don't run out if attendance one month is much higher than average.
    • Not a problem by itself, but combined with the necessity of making them different every month, this leads to a lot of waste, since last month's leftovers can't be reused.

After thinking about this problem a while, I thought of the following idea. Instead of making the cards unique every month, simply number the cards consecutively. When handing them out each month, take note of the number of the first card handed out and the last. Then if there are any suspicions of fraud, we can check quite simply that there are no duplicate or errant numbers on the cards we got back.

  • Anyone who leaves the room and comes back in again (e.g. to go to the bathroom) before the lecture starts can get a second card.

Possible solution: Hand out the cards as the students enter the building, rather than as they enter the lecture hall. (Easy in this case because the lectures are on a weekend and the building doors are locked except the one we open.)

Comment author: MrMind 12 February 2015 11:36:00AM 1 point [-]

I've thought of this solution, it requires coding and a somewhat elaborate technical setup, but also eliminates lots of waste, both in time and paper.
Have a webform / app where student can sign in with their name, school and teacher. Upon signing, the system gives the student a unique id.
Where the lecture is given, setup a free wifi from which students must log in with their unique id at the beginning and at the end of the lecture.
Attendance can then be checked in this way: students that attended are only those whose unique id is present at the beginning and at the end of the lecture, according to time stamps and wi-fi origin.
Students can still comunicate each other their unique id and forge their attendance, but you can setup incentives against cooperation: indeed, make credits transferable, so that if one student knows more than one id, s/he can rob other students and give the credits to him/her.

Comment author: Thecommexokid 12 February 2015 05:56:00PM 0 points [-]

Where the lecture is given, setup a free wifi from which students must log in with their unique id at the beginning and at the end of the lecture.

Log in on what? Many of our student attendees come from poor districts so I would hesitate to choose a solution that, for instance, assumes every student has a smartphone.

Comment author: MrMind 13 February 2015 08:00:36AM 0 points [-]

You could still provide a couple of laptops so they could login if they don't have a smartphone.

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