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Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, February 2015, chapter 108

5 Post author: b_sen 20 February 2015 09:53PM

New long chapter! Since I expect its discussion to generate more than 160 comments (which would push the previous thread over the 500 comment limit) before the next chapter is posted, here is a new thread.

This is a new thread to discuss Eliezer Yudkowsky’s Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality and anything related to it. This thread is intended for discussing chapter 108 (and chapter 109, once it comes out on Monday).

EDIT: There have now been two separate calls for having one thread per chapter, along with a poll in this thread. If the poll in this thread indicates a majority preference for one thread per chapter by Monday, I will edit this post to make it for chapter 108 only. In that case a new thread for chapter 109 should be posted by whoever gets a chance and wants to after the chapter is released.

EDIT 2: The poll indicates a large majority (currently 78%) in favor of one thread per chapter. This post has been edited accordingly.

There is a site dedicated to the story at hpmor.com, which is now the place to go to find the authors notes and all sorts of other goodies. AdeleneDawner has kept an archive of Author’s Notes. (This goes up to the notes for chapter 76, and is now not updating. The authors notes from chapter 77 onwards are on hpmor.com.)

Spoiler Warning: this thread is full of spoilers. With few exceptions, spoilers for MOR and canon are fair game to post, without warning or rot13. More specifically:

You do not need to rot13 anything about HP:MoR or the original Harry Potter series unless you are posting insider information from Eliezer Yudkowsky which is not supposed to be publicly available (which includes public statements by Eliezer that have been retracted).

If there is evidence for X in MOR and/or canon then it’s fine to post about X without rot13, even if you also have heard privately from Eliezer that X is true. But you should not post that “Eliezer said X is true” unless you use rot13.

Comments (352)

Sort By: Controversial
Comment author: Subbak 21 February 2015 12:36:18AM 1 point [-]

The Dark Lady's heart was captured, and they became lovers. And then one night (...) they lay together in the fashion of a >man and a woman. But Perenelle had been a virgin until that night.

I get what is meant, but if they had been lovers for some time then I would say that Perenelle was not a virgin in any meaningful sense of the word. Of course, from an old-fashioned point of view she might have been, but this sentence is not accompanied by a modifier expressing the change in values as the next one is.

Comment author: Epictetus 21 February 2015 06:02:58PM 2 points [-]

Let us recall that this story takes place in the 90s and that Tom Riddle attended Hogwarts in the 40s. I don't think that his views on sexual politics are entirely consistent with those of the present-day, so he may view "virgin" as meaning "not penetrated by a man".

Comment author: alienist 21 February 2015 08:48:34PM 3 points [-]

Then again Eliezer has been imposing modern sexual attitudes on the Wizarding World, whether out of ignorance or a desire to be politically correct I'm not sure. In any case, I find it one of the most jarring aspects of the fic.

Comment author: sketerpot 22 February 2015 09:42:56PM 3 points [-]

Not just modern sexual attitudes, but specifically the sexual attitudes you see in the Harry Potter fanfiction community. And I'm sure it was meant to be jarring. Magical Britain's culture is subtly but deeply different from that of the muggle country that shares its borders; it would be profoundly weird if there were no surprises, no culture shock.

Comment author: alienist 23 February 2015 01:55:36AM 2 points [-]

Magical Britain's culture is subtly but deeply different from that of the muggle country that shares its borders; it would be profoundly weird if there were no surprises, no culture shock.

The jarring thing is precisely that it isn't. The sexual attitudes of the fanfiction community have a lot more in common with general contemporary western post-protestant sexual attitudes then with the sexual attitudes of any other (contemporary or historical) culture.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 03:48:29PM 3 points [-]

Romeo and Juliet, the Star-Crossed Lovers (so called by Shakespeare), never had sex. So the words were used as Quirrel describes, six centuries ago.

Comment author: TobyBartels 23 February 2015 08:49:53AM 3 points [-]

They have sex before Act III Scene 5.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 21 February 2015 12:43:23AM 1 point [-]

*shrug* Maybe Perenelle didn't exercise much and still had an intact hymen. There's your drop of blood.

Comment author: Subbak 21 February 2015 01:07:31AM 0 points [-]

No, I mean she had an intact hymen probably, but it's just the fact that "virgin = intact hymen" is a pretty silly notion to begin with. Especially since it outright says she'd been Baba Yaga's lover for some time already. Having sex pretty much means you're not a virgin any more. Kind of the point.

Comment author: Izeinwinter 21 February 2015 06:52:29AM 4 points [-]

The story doesn't really make sense as told. It fit's Quirrell's view of the world to a T, tough, so he isn't questioning it enough.

Dons tinfoil

Someone on reddit pointed out that "confused scribble" might simply mean "A busload of aurors in a bag of holding" Now for really amusing wtfry, let's make that "A busload of arch-wizards."

Follow me down the rabbithole for a second: Voldemort's read on the tale of Perenelle is obviously, blatantly, just wrong. It fits his worldview far to well, and has some logical flaws in it, especially concerning the cup.

So, I had a thought. As Harry pointed out, one thing to do with immortality, is to share it.

Further, it is a core part of wizarding culture to not share dangerous magic freely. And the stone is dangerous. It isn't just immortality, it is also a weapon of utterly insane destructive potential.

Theory 1: Baba Yaga is not dead. Perenelle was simply the first person she chose to share her secret with. I give this one quite high odds. The most likely alternative is that her death was accidental, which would be just.. ugh. Traumatic, much?

Theory 2: All those historical wizards that lived very long lives? Those were her further apprentices as she - being appropriately cautious with the dooms-day device - established that they could, in fact, be trusted with this level of power over a very long period of time. (.. and probably some mind-reading) Most of them are also not dead. And most of them are sitting in that chamber, playing poker.

Comment author: ChristianKl 21 February 2015 11:59:37AM 5 points [-]

Theory 1: Baba Yaga is not dead.

Baba Yaga is Flamel.

Comment author: azuredarkness 21 February 2015 10:07:49PM 1 point [-]

That might be the case, but we have the breaking of the tradition of Dark Wizards teaching Battle magic as independent evidence for the murder.

Comment author: ChristianKl 21 February 2015 11:42:44PM 2 points [-]

It's evidence that it's generally believed she was murdered.

Comment author: alienist 21 February 2015 02:57:06AM *  8 points [-]

If you're going to be using old definitions "lovers = having sex" is a pretty recent change in meaning.

but it's just the fact that "virgin = intact hymen" is a pretty silly notion to begin with.

Um, the relevant property is that the man can be sure the woman's child will be his, and for that "virgin = intact hymen" is useful.

Comment author: ChristianKl 21 February 2015 11:49:33AM 3 points [-]

If you're going to be using old definitions "lovers = having sex" is a pretty recent change in meaning.

I'm not sure it's even the current meaning. I would call two religious people who avoid sex before marriage lovers before they have sex.

Comment author: Romashka 21 February 2015 03:24:13PM 1 point [-]

An anecdote: in contemporary Russian, lovers most readily translates as любовники, and not only has it a strong meaning of people having sex, but also that at least one of them is cheating upon their rightful spouse. The situation you describe would need the word влюбленньіе, literally 'those in love'.

Yet it's not impossible for 'lovers' to mean exactly 'those in love', if you speak colloquially/in a ballad mode.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 21 February 2015 09:13:47PM *  2 points [-]

In Japanese, IIRC, one of these is 'koibito' and the other 'aijin', written with almost identical kanji, both meaning 'love person'....

Comment author: [deleted] 22 February 2015 03:04:16AM *  4 points [-]

koibito 恋人 vs. aijin 愛人 -- so it's only half identical. 人 has kun'yomi hito (from Old Japanese *pi₁to₂), with voicing of the initial consonant in the compound word koibito, and kan'on reading jin. If Wiktionary can be trusted, koibito is the generic term for 'lover/boyfriend/girlfriend', whereas aijin was borrowed (regularly) from Chinese to translate the English terms 'lover' and 'sweetheart', underwent semantic shift in Japanese, and ended up meaning 'mistress'.

Interestingly, Chinese 愛人 àirén is just an old-fashioned word for 'lover', and the word for 'partner in an extramarital relationship' is 情人 qíngrén... except Valentine's Day is qíngrénjié. Wiktionary also thinks there's a difference in usage of 愛人 àirén between the PRC and the ROC, but it doesn't describe it.

(Why was rén borrowed as jin? I'm guessing there are borrowing patterns, like how English has borrowed enough from Latin that new Latin borrowings will mangle the vowels in entirely predictable ways, but I don't know what they are. My first guess was that kan'on readings are based on a dialect of Chinese that had the same ȵ > ȵʑ > ɻ shift as Mandarin. I figured that was too simplistic, but given that 日 has the kan'on reading jitsu and the go'on reading nichi (go'on was earlier than kan'on), it might be right. Aijin is almost certainly regular, since 刃 is rèn in Mandarin and has kan'on jin. *ɻiC > ɻəC? Could be, since the apical vowel can't occur with a coda consonant.)

(edit: I should probably point out that I don't actually know most of this stuff -- I just know how to look it up. So my sources could be wrong or I could be misinterpreting.)

Comment author: [deleted] 21 February 2015 08:16:02AM 3 points [-]

If you're going to be using old definitions "lovers = having sex" is a pretty recent change in meaning.

Well, given that I've been asked if I was dating someone who lived on the opposite coast, by someone who knew about the fact that she lived on the opposite coast, and knew that I hadn't been over there in quite some time...

Then again, it could still be a recent change in meaning, just reversed by the internet.

Comment author: TobyBartels 23 February 2015 08:41:34AM 1 point [-]

Dating is one thing, but if you were asked if you were ‘lovers’, then that would seem a strange use of contemporary English to me.

Comment author: [deleted] 23 February 2015 12:53:55PM 1 point [-]

Sure. 'Lovers' isn't contemporary English at all, is it? But if a semantic shift / euphemistically-useful pattern of meaning is found in one place, that means it can occur elsewhere.

(Which reminds me: I've heard that 'dating' meaning 'in a relationship with' is a recent development, and that in the '50s or so, 'in a relationship with' would have been 'going steady' and 'dating' wasn't committed or exclusive. Is that true?)

Comment author: TobyBartels 24 February 2015 11:12:58PM *  -1 points [-]

My memory of sitcoms and comics from the '50s agrees with you.

That's all that I have to go on; I wasn't alive myself back then.

All the same, I still think that ‘lover’ is a contemporary word. A bit old-fashioned, and usually singular, but I was alive for a time when a gay man could introduce another man as his ‘lover’ and it would be perfectly natural, with no other word that would mean quite what he wanted to say. (Now he could say ‘fiancé’ or even ‘husband’ and that would seem natural, but once upon a time it wouldn't have.)

ETA: Also Nornagest's ‘former lover’.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 21 February 2015 02:39:34AM 6 points [-]

Maybe, but it's certainly the common definition at the time, and besides the terms of the deal pretty explicitly said "drop of blood" anyway.

Comment author: CellBioGuy 21 February 2015 02:20:36AM *  5 points [-]

Couple of centuries ago. Their definitions are not our definitions.

Also possibly a stupid natural-language parsing artifact.

Comment author: hairyfigment 22 February 2015 11:29:40PM 0 points [-]

Nobody seems to be asking the obvious question, after Tom and Harry's conversation: what happened to the Dark Lord Dick?

Did he try to turn the Muggle population against wizardkind through enchanted books that weakened False Memory Charms and Obliviation? Did the secret mind-controlling government eventually kill him? Inquiring minds want to know!

Comment author: gjm 23 February 2015 01:05:22AM 1 point [-]

He became so disheartened at being for ever the butt of jokes that he gave up.

Comment author: falenas108 21 February 2015 12:39:23AM -1 points [-]

In some years, when I had become bored with ruling Britain and moved on to other things, I would arrange with the other Tom Riddle that he should appear to vanquish me, and he would rule over the Britain he had saved.

This is precisely the plan that Quirrel originally planned for Harry, have him pretend to defeat LV and set him up to rule the country.

Comment author: shminux 21 February 2015 12:37:51AM 1 point [-]

An allusion to the Passover ceremony? Why???

Comment author: gjm 21 February 2015 09:53:10AM 3 points [-]

Eliezer's reason: Because it's funny (and maaaaybe, as others have said, because Passover is all about saving people from death by means of a ritual involving blood). Harry's reason: Maybe the thought just occurred to him.

Comment author: [deleted] 22 February 2015 02:39:32AM 1 point [-]

...which would probably be out of character for Harry -- how likely is it that an eleven-year-old with WASP-sounding parents would spontaneously think of a line from a Jewish ritual? -- but, oh well, know your audience.

Unless he has some of Voldemort's knowledge stored up in that dark side of his? He's traveled pretty far and he's interested in the sorts of things that would lead him to read up on both the social technologies of religions and the cultures of the Muggle superpowers, so he'd be more likely than Harry to get it.

But it's probably just a throwaway reference.

Comment author: solipsist 23 February 2015 04:28:41AM 4 points [-]

It is not uncommon for jews to invite goyim to Seders. And if a child is at a seder, it is their role to ask this question.

Comment author: gjm 22 February 2015 10:04:23AM 1 point [-]

It's probably the single most famous line from a Jewish ritual that there is. But yeah, I agree it's a bit implausible for Harry to recognize it. I certainly wouldn't have at his age, though I wasn't as precocious as him.

(Much earlier in HPMOR, McGonagall is shown to know the Hebrew word for "gold" while Harry doesn't. Make of that what you will. Oh, and in Harry's year in Ravenclaw there is one "Anthony Goldstein (out of a certain tiny ethnic group that won 25% of the Nobel Prizes)".)

Comment author: linkhyrule5 21 February 2015 02:38:53AM 1 point [-]

Where?

Comment author: Alejandro1 21 February 2015 02:58:38AM 6 points [-]

"I ask my first question," Harry said. "What really happened on the night of October 31st, 1981?" Why was that night different from all other nights... "I would like the entire story, please."

Comment author: linkhyrule5 21 February 2015 04:01:06AM 3 points [-]

Oh, I see. I just didn't have the context to recognize that. Thanks.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 01:27:03AM *  17 points [-]

Passover is the reenactment of a ritual, powered by blood, to ward off the Angel of Death.

Comment author: bramflakes 23 February 2015 01:05:16PM 0 points [-]

I haven't re-read the fic in a while so this might be a stupid question, but does QQ know about Partial Transfiguration? I can't recall him being present/conscious at any point Harry uses it. That would be a power the Dark Lord knows not, right?

If Harry judged that whatever Quirrel was planning was X-risk level dangerous, he could try wandlessly Transfiguring a few micrograms of antimatter, destroying both of them (along with a large chunk of Scotland) in the process.

Comment author: garabik 23 February 2015 05:43:56PM 2 points [-]

I haven't re-read the fic in a while so this might be a stupid question, but does QQ know about Partial Transfiguration?

Harry used partial transfiguration to make a hole in a wall in Azkaban, ch. 57. Quirrel saw the hole, but how much did he deduce from that is hard to say.

Comment author: sarcasm 21 February 2015 09:51:30AM 0 points [-]

After reading the chapter I am dumbstruck by similarities between Professor and Dr. Manhattan. There might be a trope for this kind of character somewhere..

Comment author: Izeinwinter 22 February 2015 05:33:59AM *  5 points [-]

I just realizied that the trap for voldie might well be Baba Yaga's hairbrush.

It follows from the curse on the defense position.

Because I just realized that I think it was an accident, and happened because Voldemort moved the goblet of fire out of Baba Yaga's reach.

Theory: Voldemort is wrong about the Baba Yaga. She faked her death and ran off with her new wife. This part I am quite confident about. 70% probability? Most of the remainder is that her death was accidental and the reason Perenelle has spent centuries accumulating lore is that she wants her back. Yes, Im assigning under 10% likelyhood to the chance that Voldemort read this story right.

Anyway, given "Baba Yaga is not dead". A thought occurred to me. "Did they remember to terminate her employment? Could they in fact even do so without being whammied by the goblet?" The answers to which is obviously "No." Unfortunately worded contract is unfortunate, Baba Yaga has magical tenure despite slacking on her job for going on 6 centuries.

This was all well and good as long as the goblet was somewhere Baba could get at it. - Telling the goblet to lay of a new teacher every couple of decades isn't much of an imposition. But then Voldemort stole the darn thing! and it has been striking down everyone that looked to move from the status of "Temp" to actually taking over her job. Because the job is hers.

.. This also implies she is still keyed into the wards. And still unable to harm any student of hogwarts. If that holds for graduates too, it neatly explains why she never directly opposes most dark lords - they are hogwarts graduates, and would invoke the contract if she fought them.

Comment author: ChristianKl 22 February 2015 06:31:02PM 1 point [-]

Baba Yaga owns the stone. Voldemort was a student in Hogwarts.

Voldemort taking the stone could mean that the Goblet sees Voldemort as violating the agreement and the Goblet goes and kills Voldemort.

Comment author: Astazha 22 February 2015 06:36:47PM 5 points [-]

In this case, Baba Yaga's signature, and signatures from every student and teacher of Hogwarts, were placed within an ancient device known as the Goblet of Fire. Baba Yaga swore not to shed a drop of students' blood, nor take from the students anything that was theirs. In return, the students swore not to shed a drop of Baba Yaga's blood, nor take from her anything that was hers. So they all signed, with the Goblet of Fire to witness it and punish the transgressor."

Tom Riddle was not a student when Baba Yaga taught, and would not have been part of that pact.

Comment author: Izeinwinter 22 February 2015 06:47:26PM -1 points [-]

Neither were the DADA teachers, and it didn't save them. It should be noted here that Draco and company probably can pick it up safely, because they would be intending to deliver it to BY, which wouldn't count as a taking. Don't think Harry can.

Comment author: ChristianKl 22 February 2015 07:02:27PM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure that matters. The Goblet might be open for contracts that cover the student body together.

It seems like a brilliant plan to prevent anyone from stealing your stone from the perspective of Baba Yaga wanting to turn a good wizard. It seems like a brilliant plan to lay a trap for Voldemort that way.

There simply enough narrativium that I would expect the story to go down that road.

Comment author: falenas108 22 February 2015 09:00:44PM 0 points [-]

It was specifically said that every student and teacher individually signed the contract, so unless that's a lie this is probably not what will happen.

Comment author: ChristianKl 22 February 2015 10:05:31PM 0 points [-]

The paragraph that speaks about the deal contains the sentence:

But she was not trusted, and so there was invoked a curse. Some curses are easier to cast when they bind yourself and others alike; Slytherin's Parselmouth curse is an example of such.

There's no statement that only the people who signed are binded.

Comment author: lerjj 22 February 2015 12:59:46PM 1 point [-]

This was all well and good as long as the goblet was somewhere Baba could get at it. - Telling the goblet to lay of a new teacher every couple of decades isn't much of an imposition. But then Voldemort stole the darn thing! and it has been striking down everyone that looked to move from the status of "Temp" to actually taking over her job. Because the job is hers.

Doesn't the fact that the wards record the troll (and therefore probably Quirill too) as the Defence Professor falsify this?

Comment author: Izeinwinter 22 February 2015 01:34:52PM *  -2 points [-]

Not as long as they do not hold the job more than a school year.

Bringing in someone to cover an absence temporarily - and she is, after all, never there - doesn't count as taking the job from her. Certainly not if the goblet judges such things according to prevailing attitudes.

Heck, the fact that Voldemort was explicitly not planning to stay was probably what was keeping him standing.

Hmm. That might be why the job was renamed. If the castle refuses to recognize new hires as "Battle Magic" instructors... Well, Dumbledore would reason out that problem fast enough, but the headmaster that hired a dark lady under terms that make it magically impossible to fire her? That person was not good at logic.

And keeping a situation going in which there is a magically enforced peace between her and all hogwarts graduates at the cost of visiting the goblet when the job has a new hire? That would be absurdly attractive to anyone with a dubious past and a present desire for a peaceful existence.

Comment author: Diadem 20 February 2015 11:58:16PM *  5 points [-]

That was absolutely awesome. This story is really very well written. So much exposition, and it just all made perfect sense. And it was even somehow brought back far more in line with the original novel than I thought possible.

And I guess the '"Power the dark lord knows not" really is love, which is kinda awesome.

It's still kind of obvious how to defeat Voldemort though. Simply permanently disable him without killing him. Some magical prison, or a coma, or a permanent transfiguration into a stone. This is in fact so obvious that Voldemort himself should realize it as well. Maybe he just figures he is so far above Harry's power level that he has nothing to fear. Or he has some defenses against even this.

Another way to get rid of him: Destroy all his horcruxes on earth, then kill him. He'll live on on pioneer, but that's fine. You can pick him up again in 10000 years when humanity has progressed far beyond him, and can probably even cure him. Heck that'd even be a nice ending. A epilogue set 10,000 years from now, with Harry recovering the Pioneer 11 and curing Voldemort.

The sequel could then be a Harry / Voldemort slashfic where Harry and a redeemed Voldemort rule the galaxy as father and son.

Comment author: [deleted] 21 February 2015 04:49:44PM 4 points [-]

It seems like he can leave the body at will to go to another... I don't think permanently disabling would help.

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2015 06:28:51PM *  1 point [-]

The details seem like they would matter here. If he's transfigured into a rock, as far as we know he would not be conscious and experiencing anything, so how could he 'will' to go to another body?

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 06:38:22PM 3 points [-]

Conversely, you could ask: if he can't be conscious or experience anything in his current "body", doesn't that mean it's dead for purposes of the Horcrux spell, and he is automatically shunted to another horcrux?

I don't think we know enough details to be sure what would happen.

Comment author: Vaniver 21 February 2015 05:09:16PM *  4 points [-]

So, if this were Pact, I would expect that Dumbledore has one of Voldemort's Horcruxes, and he can be possessed by Voldemort at will. Dumbledore would show up to save the day, and then the brief uptick in probability of success would be followed by a precipitous drop.

I am fairly confident this will not happen, but I'm noticing that most of my confidence seems to come from arguments that I am not confident in once I give them explicit form. For example, that seems too hard an antagonist for Harry, and he needs to have some chance of success, and EY seems against giving the protagonist the plot armor* that Wildbow gives them. But when I observe that this is an outside view argument that's reference class specific, HPMoR seems much closer to Worm or Pact than to other works of fiction, which says I should expect it to follow the same convention. Thoughts?

* Typically, Wildbow protagonists look like they're taking two steps back for every one step forward, but I see it more as "trading away parts of themselves / resources for success, and eventually getting to the end goal / end of the story." If you predict that they will eventually win but it will be the most Pyrrhic victory possible (over the long haul), I think you have a good shot at getting all the details right.

Comment author: Astazha 21 February 2015 06:20:25PM 2 points [-]

Riddle no longer needs the target to touch a horcrux, and Dumbledore is too powerful to possess.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 06:14:39PM *  1 point [-]

ETA: gjm is right: Voldemort himself says the target must be either willing or too weak to resist him. So Voldemort can't possess most random people, and certainly not Dumbledore.

If Voldemort could possess Dumbledore, he could have done so earlier and simply given himself the Stone, as well as the Elder Wand and any other interesting gadgets Dumbledore has. He'd have made Dumbledore teach him all the spells he knows, too, if those survive possession. And he'd have used Dumbledore to attack by surprise Flamel or anyone else if he wanted to.

In the least convenient world, possessing someone doesn't give Voldemort access to any of their previous memories or spells, it just wipes the mind and takes over the body. Then it might be hard to possess Dumbledore and use him to get the Stone. But he could still take out Dumbledore, cause Flamel to remove the Stone from Hogwarts, and then possess Flamel while he has the Stone.

Possessing anyone in the world (or at least, any wizard other than Harry) just by making them touch any object you prepared beforehand is so overpowered that if it's true, the only possible reason Quirrel is still plotting anything or playing games or appearing to ever be in danger, is that he'd be bored otherwise.

If Voldemort can possess Dumbledore at will and chooses not to, the only reason I can think of is that it would make the game too boring, like he said about the Wizarding War. This strikes me as... inadequate. With the Stone involved, Voldermort is playing for real stakes, and waiting for the end of the year increases the chance something will go wrong, weakens the Quirrel body, and eventually forces Voldemort to operate on the last day of the school year, when others might guess something important would happen.

(Edited:) But why wouldn't Voldemort be able to possess Dumbledore, or anyone else in the world, other than Harry? He claims the only requirement is to have the target touch a Horcrux 2.0. This seems fairly easy: to give make sure your target will touch a Horcruxed coin, you can just toss them one and they will catch it by reflex, as an earlier chapter pointed out. And you can horcrux the doorknob of their office, a chair they'll sit on in a public park, etc. It may be, however, that since Voldemort has only had this ability for a few months, during which Dumbledore has been on high alert, he hasn't been able to accomplish this yet.

Comment author: gjm 21 February 2015 08:10:20PM 3 points [-]

He claims the only requirement is to have the target touch a Horcrux 2.0.

No. They must either consent or be too weak to resist. It seems unlikely that either Dumbledore or Flamel would meet either condition.

Comment author: l2718 21 February 2015 09:04:56PM 5 points [-]

In Ch. 37, Quirrell explains how he found Harry:

"and no blood purist is likely to think of consulting a phone book"

Conditioned on Lord Voldmort being a blood purist, this is evidence for Quirrell not being Voldemort (probably the intended interpretation). In fact, this was evidence for Lord Voldemort not being a blood purist.

Comment author: [deleted] 22 February 2015 03:10:30AM 7 points [-]

And if you've been paying attention to the Muggle world for the whole 20th century, a blood purist is exactly the sort of villain you'd think up.

Comment author: higurashimerlin 21 February 2015 12:20:21AM 10 points [-]

So by the way, has anyone notice that Eliezer did something even more impossible? Not only was Harry saved from certain death at the hands of a hoard of Yaoi fangirls by Voldemort and it wasn't crack, but Voldemort was the one who responsible for the whole thing and it still isn't crack.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 01:21:45AM 9 points [-]

You probably mean a horde of Yaoi fangirls, but Harry would be wise indeed to hoard them, until he hits puberty.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 21 February 2015 06:17:37AM *  13 points [-]

... Hm.

This isn't the chain of logic I followed - for the sake of authenticity I'll put that at the end, but -

Isn't a little... strange, that artifacts designed and destined to defeat death transfer primarily by death?

I mean, even aside from the "kill the previous owner and take their stuff" method, the other option - inheriting it - is also heavily tied to death, as powerful artifacts like these are unlikely to be permanently given away until the original owner has no further use of it.

Backing away from plot for a minute - if you don't expect to manage to destroy death yourself, you should really program your powerful artifacts to seek out the most effective owners, anyway. Inheritance is very unreliable, and murder is entirely counterproductive - both would be backup selectors to anyone designing such a thing. So what's the primary determinant?

I think we've seen it. The prophecy stone, that responded to Harry's oath to end death, engraved with the symbol of the Deathly Hallows, and completely unmentioned since - if I were going to design such a thing, gifting the Hallows to someone who had sworn an honest oath against death would be a good start, particularly if I could somehow tie it into True Patronus capability (as the silvery light suggests.)

If that's the case, then Harry has a stronger claim on the Hallows than their current physical possessors. Most importantly, this includes the Resurrection Stone. Further, magic seems to register HJPEV as "Tom Riddle" - at any rate, the ancient Hogwarts wards do. So unless magic has multiple names for Harry Potter, then HJPEV may really count as the same person as Voldemort - in which case he would have access to his Horcrux network. Voldemort may even have anticipated this - but since literally nobody knows both the existence and the significance of that glowing stone, he can't anticipate losing control over the Stone.

So, predictions:

Harry is the Master of Death, in the sense of being the primary magical owner of all three Hallows - 75%.

HJPEV counts as Tom Riddle, to the point that on death, the Horcrux network will attempt to update based on him. - 60%.

Links go to PredictionBook pages.

(My actual chain of logic started from noticing that I was confused about the Death prophecy - since I didn't really see how the Hallows would play much of a part in the climax of the story - which lead to the realization that the prophecy might reassign ownership of the Hallows.)

Comment author: b_sen 23 February 2015 05:12:04AM 1 point [-]

I think you're right; on reflection, that's exactly the sort of thing I would expect rational!Peverells to do, plus the stone appears about the right age to be set up by the Peverells. Based on the same reflection, I agree with your predictions and the probabilities you've given them. Quoting for posterity:

Harry is the Master of Death, in the sense of being the primary magical owner of all three Hallows - 75%.

HJPEV counts as Tom Riddle, to the point that on death, the Horcrux network will attempt to update based on him. - 60%.

And I'll just make this my prediction comment for this thread. (Previous prediction comment.)

The prophecy stone in Chapter 96 ("the tall stone worn as though from a thousand years of age, upon it a line within a circle within a triangle glowing ever so faintly silver") and/or its behavior will become plot-relevant. 95% Otherwise it’s a major unfired Chekhov’s Gun.

The wand Quirrell produced from a false tooth in Chapter 107 (the one that he then uses to cast Fiendfyre) is the brother to Harry’s wand. 90%

Riddle’s Horcrux 2.0 (the improved version that resembles the 'false' description, but before he integrated the Resurrection Stone) is actually a lost earlier version of the Horcrux spell; Riddle rediscovered it. 70%

Observations:

This whole segment from Chapter 108 reminds me strongly of having something to protect:

"And you," said Professor Quirrell, "have no right to speak of happiness either. Happiness is not what you hold precious above all. You decided that in the beginning, all the way back in the beginning of this year, when the Sorting Hat offered you Hufflepuff. Which I know about, because I received a similar offer and warning all those years ago, and I refused it just as you did. Beyond this there is little more to say, between Tom Riddles."

Comment author: Vaniver 21 February 2015 03:20:43AM *  17 points [-]

Hmm. My probability that Hermione will be recreated as an alicorn princess is now over 75%:

Indeed, now that you have pointed it out, I have just now thought of some nice things I can do this very day, to further my agenda.

It seems unlikely that Voldemort thinks that humans are the optimal creatures to be (that's flowing with the status quo, which he does not do). It might be best to be, say, both a Wizard and a Troll, or a Wizard and a Dragon, or a Wizard and some new optimized thing. But why try this out on himself first, when it could go horribly wrong, when he could try it out on Hermione?

Comment author: solipsist 23 February 2015 03:49:41AM 1 point [-]

Dumbeldore wouldn't like Hermione coming back from the dead. It's unnatural. He previously worried that the only reason Voldemort would steal Hermione's body is to make an inferius.

Comment author: Transfuturist 23 February 2015 12:08:25AM *  1 point [-]

So he would reinstate her in a pony form, suited for friendship, and optimizing-oriented? Watch out, Hanna.

Comment author: Astazha 21 February 2015 09:24:02PM 21 points [-]

And then one year Baba Yaga agreed to teach Battle Magic at Hogwarts, under an old and respected truce." Professor Quirrell looked... angry, a look such as Harry had rarely seen on him. "But she was not trusted, and so there was invoked a curse.

And although Perenelle was new-come into the beauty of her youth, her heart was already blacker than Baba Yaga's own -"

Ah, yes, Perenelle, the beautiful and covetous. Perenelle seduced the Dark Lady over the months, with gentle touches and flirtations and the shy pretense of innocence. The Dark Lady's heart was captured, and they became lovers. And then one night Perenelle whispered how she had heard of Baba Yaga's shape-changing power and how this thought had enflamed her desires; thus Perenelle swayed Baba Yaga to come to her with the Stone in hand, to assume many guises in a single night, for their pleasures. Among other forms Perenelle bid Baba Yaga take the form of a man; and they lay together in the fashion of a man and a woman.

Does anyone else think this reads like Quirrel has an awful lot of emotional connection to and personal memories about this story, almost as if it were Baba Yaga speaking about herself in the 3rd person? Could Riddle or Quirrel have come across a Baba Yaga horcrux? The resurrection stone, perhaps? Earlier than that? Why would Perenelle share these secrets? How would anyone know these details if Baba Yaga was dead and Perenelle had not shared them? No one else would have been present for those private moments.

And what are the odds that a Dark Lady like Baba Yaga did not have a horcrux?

In Ch. 70 Quirrel makes a point during the S.P.H.E.W. confrontation with the headmaster that Dark Ladies are also underrepresented, and that few could name one except Baba Yaga. Self-reference?

She would probably need to be faking the map labelling her (and Harry?) as Tom Riddle, but a sorceress as powerful as Baba Yaga combined with the secrets of Salazar, who created the Hogwarts security system in the first place, could probably accomplish that.

Notice what Quirrel does and doesn't say in parseltongue:

"None of it iss known to me to be falsse," said Professor Quirrell. "Telling a tale implies filling in certain gaps; I was not present to observe when Perenelle seduced Baba Yaga. The bassicss sshould be mosstly correct, I think."

Comment author: yaeiou 22 February 2015 06:44:03PM 3 points [-]

In chapter 25 the Weasley twins discuss the map

" How's it doing?" said Fred in a low voice. "Still on the fritz," said George. "Both, or -" "Intermittent one fixed itself again. Other one's same as ever."

I now think this refers to warm!Harry showing up as HJPEV and his dark side as Tom M. Riddle. If so, it's less probable the map is being manipulated.

Comment author: avichapman 22 February 2015 10:26:17PM 3 points [-]

Harry can go months without using his dark side. Quirrel on the other hand goes into zombie mode every day. Perhaps zombie mode is what's left of the original Quirrel.

Comment author: Transfuturist 23 February 2015 12:02:13AM 3 points [-]

My prediction is that zombie mode is Quirrel checking up on Horcruxes in the same way he views the stars.

Comment author: arundelo 22 February 2015 09:28:29PM 9 points [-]

Eliezer says on r/hpmor that the intermittent map "error" is V's intermittent control of Q's body.

Comment author: solipsist 23 February 2015 04:48:17AM 3 points [-]

If you want text to run with this idea, that text would be:

"Here of course we have the Sorting Hat, I believe the two of you have met. It told me that it was never again to be placed on your head under any circumstances. You're only the fourteenth student in history it's said that about, Baba Yaga was another one and I'll tell you about the other twelve when you're older"

(Chapter 17)

and

You decided that in the beginning, all the way back in the beginning of this year, when the Sorting Hat offered you Hufflepuff. Which I know about, because I received a similar offer and warning all those years ago, and I refused it just as you did. Beyond this there is little more to say, between Tom Riddles.

(Chapter 108)

Comment author: solipsist 23 February 2015 03:23:49PM 2 points [-]

...and if you want a counter-hypothesis, the only line quoted in which Quirrell seems to have an emotional reaction is:

And then one year Baba Yaga agreed to teach Battle Magic at Hogwarts, under an old and respected truce." Professor Quirrell looked... angry, a look such as Harry had rarely seen on him. "But she was not trusted, and so there was invoked a curse.

Dumbledore did not allow Tom Riddle to teach Battle Magic.

Comment author: Astazha 23 February 2015 07:56:39PM 0 points [-]

That could explain the anger. There's still a lot of detail about the bedroom, though you could assume that Quirrel used legilemens on Flamel to find the truth about the stone. That seems really direct and dangerous, but Perenelle may not be an occlumens at all, and from Ch. 86:

"And I'll warn you of this but once. Voldie isn't like any other Legilimens in recorded history. He doesn't need to look you in the eyes, and if your shields are that rusty he'd creep in so softly you'd never notice a thing."

As DavidAgain pointed out above, there seems to be a parseltongue statement against tricking the map as well.

Something is still off about this, though. Suddenly Quirrel is spinning a romance narrative? Also, here is a clever, ambition student, who in her 6th year outwitted the most powerful dark sorceress we know of and obtained for herself an ancient immortality-granting artifact. She sought immortality while still in school, as Tom Riddle did, and with greater success. She leveraged her advantage over greater wizards than herself to obtain more power still. She has shown so many traits that Quirrel would admire, and what adjectives does he use to describe her? Covetous. Black-hearted. If the betrayal were personal, I can make sense of that, otherwise it seems really off.

The Quirrel I know would mostly stick to the facts, perhaps stopping to note the stupidity of Baba Yaga and the cunning of Perenelle.

Maybe his negative view of Perenelle is just because she helped Dumbledore. Maybe I'm reading too much into too little. I'm in love with the theory though; I hope it works out.

Comment author: Vulture 21 February 2015 09:55:05PM 7 points [-]

This makes some sense, but if Quirrell could bamboozle the map, surely he wouldn't do so in such a way as to reveal vitally important and damaging secrets to his enemies.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 21 February 2015 01:20:13AM 53 points [-]

Eliezer and I are now part of the literary canon.

At least, we're both taught in the English department at Princeton. Anne Jamison's course, "Fanfiction: Transformative works from Shakespeare to Sherlock", will cover Eliezer's Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality on March 2, and one of my short stories, "The Magician and the Detective", on March 4.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 27 February 2015 01:36:36PM 1 point [-]

This chapter may sort out something which got on my nerves earlier in the story-- the long sequence where Quirrell is Harry's only friend. I'm not saying that Harry should have known Quirrell was Voldemort (and I still think it might have been more interesting if Quirrell had been seriously bad news, but not Voldemort), but it seems to me that Harry liked and trusted Quirrell more than he should have. (Sorry, no details-- I'm going by memory.)

Now I think that Harry's desperate desire for an intellectual equal (which to some extent translates as someone who agrees with Harry on important issues) is somewhat a result of him being a Quirrell imprint.

I'm not clear on what being a Quirrell imprint means-- he doesn't have Quirrell's memories. He does have Quirrell's intelligence, and part of his temperament. It's interesting that a kind upbringing can have such a large effect, but I'm not sure this makes sense-- why wouldn't more of Quirrell's misanthropy have carried over?

Also, is it as plausible that death is really bad in the HPMOR universe as it is in ours? It might be true, but is it obviously true? The rules are really different with magic, and minds are much more important than in a universe where it's plausible that there's nothing but matter/energy.

Comment author: Vaniver 27 February 2015 09:58:52PM 2 points [-]

It's interesting that a kind upbringing can have such a large effect, I'm not sure this makes sense-- why wouldn't more of Quirrell's misanthropy have carried over?

Eh. I never got the sense that Harry was that good in near mode. Consider him not seeing a reason for Ron to exist, his total lack of interest in Hagrid, the incident in Diagon Alley, "birth parents," and the list goes on and on--but the difference is that while Quirrell is perfectly willing to jump from "I don't see a reason for Ron to exist" to "I can kill Ron if I feel like it," Harry has been taught that's not how the Right People think about things. But does he value Ron, or see a reason for him to exist or be happy? Not really, nowhere near like Hermione does.

Comment author: Velorien 27 February 2015 02:03:03PM 2 points [-]

This chapter may sort out something which got on my nerves earlier in the story-- the long sequence where Quirrell is Harry's only friend. I'm not saying that Harry should have known Quirrell was Voldemort (and I still think it might have been more interesting if Quirrell had been seriously bad news, but not Voldemort), but it seems to me that Harry liked and trusted Quirrell more than he should have. (Sorry, no details-- I'm going by memory.)

I always found it extremely plausible. Harry has had an isolated childhood, by his own admission, lacking in friends, in intellectual equals, in people who would take him seriously. Quirrell is the first person he's met who thinks like him and is better at it and who gives out approval but in a sparse fashion. So we have a kindred spirit and a role model to admire (intellectually if not ethically) and a parental figure to dispense the sort of validation Harry can't get anywhere else. Quirrell pretty much ticks all the boxes for Harry, in a way no one else does. If Quirrell was actively trying to brainwash Harry, he could hardly have set up better conditions.

It's interesting that a kind upbringing can have such a large effect, but I'm not sure this makes sense-- why wouldn't more of Quirrell's misanthropy have carried over?

Quirrell doesn't hate people so much as he has given up trying to care about them after being bewildered and frustrated by their flaws. His Killing Curse is powered by indifference, not hate. Harry's scientific background makes it easier for him to understand why people are flawed in the ways they are, and it gives him hope that they can be improved, which is something Quirrell never had.

Comment author: solipsist 23 February 2015 03:32:52PM 3 points [-]

One has to wonder about the "masters" of the Horcruxes Are the two Tom Riddles masters of their individual Horcruxes, or are they joint masters to both? In HPMOR, time turners are locked to a single individual. Then can Voldemort use Harry's time turner? My guess will be "no" for literary reasons.

Voldemort mastered the resurrection stone by defeating death. For Harry to master it, he would have to defeat death, either through Patronus or by dying and getting resurrected.

Comment author: Astazha 23 February 2015 07:19:47PM 1 point [-]

Indeed. And how did the Ministry even key the time-turner to Harry? He wasn't physically present and "magic" seems to think his name is Tom Riddle.

Comment author: Nornagest 23 February 2015 07:39:28PM *  2 points [-]

You could ask the same question of the Hogwarts letter.

The simplest explanation seems to be that the Marauders' Map is keying off of something different than the other person-specific magic we know about. Perhaps the Ministry's running something like a magical Social Security database that associates names with bodies at birth, and the Map (and, by extension, the Hogwarts security system) is taking MD5 hashes of people's souls and associating them with names on admission.

Which raises the interesting question of whether Harry counts as a professor where the wards are concerned.

Comment author: Velorien 23 February 2015 04:03:55PM 2 points [-]

Harry has already mastered another Deathly Hallow, and there's no reason to believe that the requirements for different Hallows are different based on what we've seen.

Comment author: jimrandomh 23 February 2015 03:24:12PM 2 points [-]

Harry and Quirrell are about to enter the room containing the Mirror of Erised (desire), which shows the viewer's deepest desire. It contains the philosopher's stone, and (Ch. 104)

Her notes said that something dangerous might happen if the Stone stays inside the mirror too long.

So, what is Harry's deepest desire? There are several candidates, but I think a strong contender is a Quirrell who isn't evil. Transfiguration can only create things that already exist. It is plausible that being seen in the mirror, modified as it is by the magic of the Stone, counts as existence for this purpose. So, Harry's win condition is: transfigure Quirrell into redeemed Quirrell. Due to the destructive interaction of their magics, this would require disabling Quirrell and then getting someone else to do the transfiguration.

Comment author: Astazha 23 February 2015 02:07:20AM 7 points [-]

Quirrel has not confiscated Harry's ring with his father rock, which has been transfigured by Harry, in the setting. We've seen Quirrel's magic fluctuate out of control when touching Harry's, both in Azkaban and in his telling of the night at Godric's Hollow. We've seen Quirrel take care in the Azkaban escape to not even let Harry touch something that Quirrel has transfigured.

It is possible, if Harry simply touches Quirrel with the gem on his ring that Quirrel will be forced to once again throw away his wand and transform into a snake. It would affect Harry too, but Harry seemed less affected than Quirrel in Azkaban for whatever reason (because magic is stronger around Quirrel?)

Even if this avenue would destroy Harry, self-sacrifice is among my contenders for a "power the Dark Lord knows not".

There is also the "other" transfiguration, the one that's not the ring. Anyone have guesses as to what this is?

Comment author: William_Quixote 22 February 2015 01:07:03PM *  13 points [-]

QQ has Harry's wand, so how is Harry going to get out of this mess? One of my theories is wandlessmagic. The existence of wandless magic at all is evidence the wand isn't strictly needed.

This makes sense if you buy that a wizard is pulling levers on the source of magic rather than actually enacting the spell

From Chapter 25

If magic had been like that, a big complex adaptation with lots of necessary genes, then a wizard mating with a Muggle would have resulted in a child with only half those parts and half the machine wouldn't do much. And so there would have been no Muggleborns, ever. Even if all the pieces had individually gotten into the Muggle gene pool, they'd never reassemble all in one place to form a wizard.

...

So however your genes made you a wizard, it wasn't by containing the blueprints for complicated machinery. That was the other reason Harry had guessed the Mendelian pattern would be there. If magical genes weren't complicated, why would there be more than one?

And yet magic itself seemed pretty complicated. A door-locking spell would prevent the door from opening and prevent you from Transfiguring the hinges and resist Finite Incantatem and Alohomora. Many elements all pointing in the same direction: you could call that goal-orientation, or in simpler language, purposefulness.

There were only two known causes of purposeful complexity. Natural selection, which produced things like butterflies. And intelligent engineering, which produced things like cars.

Magic didn't seem like something that had self-replicated into existence. Spells were purposefully complicated, but not, like a butterfly, complicated for the purpose of making copies of themselves. Spells were complicated for the purpose of serving their user, like a car.

Some intelligent engineer, then, had created the Source of Magic, and told it to pay attention to a particular DNA marker.

...

The line of reasoning continued: Atlantis had been an isolated civilization that had somehow brought into being the Source of Magic, and told it to serve only people with the Atlantean genetic marker, the blood of Atlantis.

And by similar logic: The words a wizard spoke, the wand movements, those weren't complicated enough of themselves to build up the spell effects from scratch - not the way that the three billion base pairs of human DNA actually were complicated enough to build a human body from scratch, not the way that computer programs took up thousands of bytes of data.

So the words and wand movements were just triggers, levers pulled on some hidden and more complex machine. Buttons, not blueprints.

Since wandless magic exists, we know that you can push those buttons without a wand. You can make the source of magic do what you want without a wand. Harry has been told that wandless magic is harder or that it requires more power, or various other excuses for it not to be taught until later. But, I suspect that is just a conceptual limitation, that you don't actually need the power to do it. My evidence for this is the accidental magic that children use when stressed. Under stress children can perform magics that seem extremely powerful (well over the power level of kids their age) and they can do it without wands.

from chapter 13

Now Professor Sprout was giving Harry a sceptical look. "I suppose this boy hit himself with two pies, then." "He didn't use his wand!" blurted one of the young Hufflepuffs. "I don't know how he did it either, he just snapped his fingers and there was pie!" ... "Prior Incantato," said Sprout. She frowned. "That's odd, your wand doesn't seem to have been used at all." Harry shrugged. "It hasn't, actually, I only got my wand and schoolbooks a few days ago." Sprout nodded. "Then we have a clear case of accidental magic from a boy who felt threatened. And the rules plainly state that you are not to be held responsible.

Now in this case, we know that it wasn't accidental magic. But Sprout, a Hogwarts professor and presumably an expert in dealing with wizard children thinks this is perfectly plausible. She thinks Harry could create, not just transfigure, but <i>create</i> two pies ex nihilo and then levitate them at high speeds towards a bully. (brief aside consider the amount of energy in two pies)

in chapter78

Mr. and Mrs. Davis were shaking as they stood up from the comfortable chairs of the faculty Quidditch box; they couldn't quite clutch each other while walking, but they held hands tightly, pretending hard to be invisible. If they'd been children young enough for accidental magic they probably would've spontaneously Disillusioned themselves.

We've been told elsewhere that disillusioning is very high powered magic. After the dementor incident, QQ notes, that Snape is probably powerful enough to disillusion himself. From context, this is notable and its assumed that many adult wizards are not able to do it. But the above quote from 78 says that children CAN do this if they have the right frame of mind.

"Accidental" magic gives children a way to press the buttons on the source of magic without wands, incantations or movements, and it gives them a way to press the buttons for spells that are otherwise far above their power level. If Harry promotes this problem / subject to his attention, then he may discover a way to deliberately use "accidental" magic. And once he had that, he would have a vast toolkit at his disposal.

Comment author: Baughn 22 February 2015 06:39:30PM *  3 points [-]

Moreover, it ignores Merlin's interdict. Those children had not learned how to disillusion themselves.

I think you're on to something here.

Comment author: Transfuturist 23 February 2015 12:16:37AM 4 points [-]

Merlin's Interdict is unrelated to wands. It simply prevents certain magical knowledge from being passed down in any way other than through oral instruction. It doesn't prevent spontaneous rediscovery of that magical knowledge; the magic was there waiting to be discovered.

Comment author: CodingHare 22 February 2015 05:03:06AM 1 point [-]

Prediction on destroying the Horcux network: we know that the Horcruxes are all connected to Voldemort. If you could locate one (and we know they are now distributed so anyone can stumble across and be possessed by them), perhaps you could use that Horcruxes's connection to the network to destroy or incapacitate it, then kill Voldemort. Locating all possible nodes to physically destroy is heavily implied to be infeasible even with magic. I give this 60% confidence.

Prediction on next chapter: Voldemort kills Harry and succeeds. After all, Harry just told Voldemort about giving Horcruxes to your friends and testing your Horcrux network. I imagine Voldemort is curious as to whether or not Harry, as a Tom Riddle, will be absorbed by the network. I give this 40% confidence.

Outcomes: A. Only the part of Harry that Voldemort imprinted is absorbed by the network. This consciousness is either reborn as a purely young Tom Riddle, or reabsorbed by Voldemort completely upon his next death.

B. Harry himself is absorbed into the network. I'm not sure about all the implications of this. Obviously, he could attempt possessing someone, but this seems mostly against his moral code (unless he thought he could prevent more suffering by doing so.) Or he could potentially mess with the Horcux network internally.

C. Another magical explosion occurs--we're still not entirely certain what caused Voldemort's Horcrux spell to backfire in the first place.

D. Harry, in fact, dies. A possible, if unsatisfying literary ending.

Comment author: b_sen 23 February 2015 02:48:53AM 7 points [-]

B. Harry himself is absorbed into the network. I'm not sure about all the implications of this. Obviously, he could attempt possessing someone, but this seems mostly against his moral code (unless he thought he could prevent more suffering by doing so.) Or he could potentially mess with the Horcux network internally.

I recall Quirrell saying that his spirit could fly free and choose a consenting person to possess if he so desired. Perhaps Lesath would let Harry borrow his body for a while?

Comment author: 75th 23 February 2015 04:00:00AM 7 points [-]

"My life is yours, my Lord, and my death as well."

I like this.

Comment author: spriteless 22 February 2015 04:55:50AM 5 points [-]

I decided to collect the stuff about these recent updates that confuse me, and when added together two were in the shape of a theory!

"Dumbledore was quite correct," Professor Quirrell said, shaking his head as though in wonderment. "He was also an utter fool to leave the Hogwarts Map in the possession of those two idiots. I had an unpleasant shock after I recovered the Map; it showed my name and yours correctly! The Weasley idiots had thought it a mere malfunction, especially after you received your Cloak and your Time-Turner. If Dumbledore had kept the Map himself - if the Weasleys had ever spoken of it to Dumbledore - but they did not, thankfully."

Even Quirrell is confused! Wow!

So... Dumbledore did know all along, just like cannon, and sent the map to the twins for plausible deniability. He can get away with that because he doesn't mind when people think him a fool. And he really needs Querrellmort to think of him as ignorant so he will play the role perfectly... well Voldemort said he could play chess.

In the last thread roystgnr wrote

Harry figures out Quirrell's identity almost immediately after Snape casts some sort of "Dispel Magical Confusion", yet the only character who would have the knowledge and incentive to magically confuse Harry about this is Quirrell himself, who seems to be incapable of directly using magic on Harry or Harry's magic.

That is totally something I wouldn't have figured out on my own. Well, the first part. I had just put that up to Harry not wanting to see ill of his friend, but magical obfuscation makes sense too. Oh, but someone else had the knowledge if the first theory is right. Someone who used Legilimancy on Harry in chapter 19 and that's just when Harry found out about it!

Comment author: ChristianKl 22 February 2015 07:08:41PM 1 point [-]

So... Dumbledore did know all along, just like cannon, and sent the map to the twins for plausible deniability. He can get away with that because he doesn't mind when people think him a fool.

That's mixes well with the idea that the Goblet of Fire kills Voldemort if he takes the stone. It's simply a well set up trap and because Voldemort thinks he's smarter than the rest he walks into it.

Comment author: lerjj 22 February 2015 01:30:29AM 12 points [-]

Hmm... some thoughts occur to me:

Firstly, he hasn't used any of the muggle equipment Fred and George got him yet has he? But Quirrell's got his pouch.

Secondly, this may not come as a surprise but he is likely to succeed since "HE IS HERE. THE ONE WHO WILL DESTROY THE VERY STARS IN HEAVEN" this could refer to Quirell, true, but I far expect it to refer to HJPEV due to the timing. Also note that Quirell says something about prophecies in ch. 108, but I can't find the quote.

Third: obligatory wacky theory that his father's rock is the Stone of Permanency. Stones == rocks, and he was given it by Dumbledore after all. And Harry's magic interferes with Quirrell's so it might shield the magic trace.

Fourthly: this is my first post on LessWrong, nice to meetcha!

Comment author: Baughn 22 February 2015 06:51:01PM 2 points [-]

HE IS HERE. THE ONE WHO WILL DESTROY THE VERY STARS IN HEAVEN.

I've been wondering about this. Voldemort knows this prophecy, and I expect he realises it's not about him. So, how can he expect to be able to kill Harry, in a self-consistent universe?

Perhaps Harry's reading of that plan is all wrong.

Comment author: lerjj 22 February 2015 08:25:14PM 3 points [-]

Actually, I'm no longer that sure about this. Does anyone have a source for prophecies being unavoidable? They certainly seem to have a knack of getting themselves fulfilled (see October 31st) but are they literally unbreakable?

If Quirrell thinks that he can prevent a prophecy from coming true, he's committed this time around to do it properly and not to try to creatively fulfil it. He doesn't appear to think this is futile.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 22 February 2015 12:48:57AM 5 points [-]

But my true epiphany came on a certain day when David Monroe was trying to get an entry permit for an Asian instructor in combat tactics, and a Ministry clerk denied it, smiling smugly.

Is this the same Asian combat instructor mentioned earlier, I wonder?

Comment author: 75th 23 February 2015 04:06:35AM 2 points [-]

I vote no on this theory. "All the good martial artists live" in Asia, so that may be the reason this combat instructor was said to be Asian, but if he was trying to get a random Muggle in, (1) Quirrellmort would have said "Muggle instructor", and (2) there would have been more legitimate resistance than just a smugly smiling clerk.

Comment author: Astazha 22 February 2015 01:52:34AM 3 points [-]

Yes. Riddle received this training as Monroe, most likely, and then threw his temper tantrum as Voldemort to make sure no one else could get it.

Comment author: cousin_it 21 February 2015 11:20:02PM *  1 point [-]

More questions. I'll just gather them here, instead of making a new comment for each one.

1) Making horcruxes for your friends doesn't actually test the horcrux spell, you also have to kill your friends. So it makes more sense to test on a minion, which doesn't require you to be nice in the first place. Why didn't Quirrell think of that?

2) Why did Quirrell offer Hermione to leave before killing her? The plot against Malfoy wouldn't be served by her departure, only by her death.

3) If magical resonance can kill, why didn't it kill or otherwise affect baby Harry?

4) If Quirrell's problem is that he's bored and doesn't see the fun in anything, why didn't he solve that problem long ago by using mind magic on himself?

5) In Ch. 107, why not just call mind-controlled Snape and ask him to explain what's up with his room? Eliezer has said that wouldn't work because Snape is a perfect Occlumens, but Quirrell don't need to read Snape's mind, just threaten him and demand the truth.

6) Why kill Hermione to plot against Lucius? What's so difficult about killing Lucius to begin with?

Edited to add:

7) If Riddle wished for magical Britain to become more competent, why did he kill Yermy Wibble?

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 11:41:06PM *  3 points [-]

(1). What did you think about my argument here? That Quirrel couldn't think of a plan that started by teaching his most powerful and secret magic to a minion.

(3). Maybe the backlash is proportional to the strength of one's magic, so in Azkaban Quirrel was affected a lot more than Harry, and baby Harry wasn't affected at all. That matches the fact that Quirrel's new strategy for surviving such moments is to stop using magic, throw away his wand and abandon the very shape of a wizard.

(5). If he tortured or threatened Snape, he couldn't trust anything Snape might say. A perfect Occlumens is perfectly prepared to assume a false identity that will confess false information.

(6). Back then, Quirrel wanted to strengthen Harry politically and eventually help him rule Britain. If he killed Lucius, Draco would blame Dumbledore, be very angry and afraid, and probably leave Hogwarts. If he caused Lucius to be disgraced, he might succeed in making Draco believe that Lucius had indeed killed Hermione, and then Draco would come back to Hogwarts and become even closer friends with Harry.

Comment author: cousin_it 22 February 2015 12:28:19AM *  0 points [-]

1) I'm not sure. Also, Riddle always wanted to be a teacher, so it seems like he should be able to imagine plans that involve teaching X to Y.

5) A well-chosen threat can make Snape want to tell the truth. "Help me get the Stone! If I fail today, I will return and do horrible thing X." Just mentioning the hostage situation might be enough.

6) If you want to remove Lucius, why set up a new crime for him to commit? He's already committed any number of crimes while working for you as a Death Eater, so you have all the proof you need. And if you want to turn Draco against him as well, the obvious solution is to provide "ironclad evidence" that he burned Narcissa.

Comment author: DanArmak 22 February 2015 08:54:41AM 1 point [-]

5) Snape isn't a Parselmouth, so Voldemort can't precommit to him not to do the horrible things if Snape does help.

6) Judging Lucius for being a Death Eater, on no new evidence, would require a major political shakeup. Dumbledore's faction already failed to do this after the war, so why would they succeed now? And it would probably require judging all other prominent Death Eaters too, like Jugson. Voldemort might not want to remove all of his previous identity's servants off the board.

What possible motive could Lucius have had to burn Narcissa? Not to accuse Dumbledore - they were at war at that point, and nobody really cared. And later he couldn't convince anyone of it. And, I get the impression he's taken some political hits (or missed opportunities) due to his insistence that Dumbledore burned her.

Comment author: cousin_it 23 February 2015 01:17:48PM *  2 points [-]

5) Riddle can't use Parseltongue to prove stuff, that only works between wizards of roughly equal power. If you're much weaker than Riddle, you never know if you've been False-Memory-Charmed to hear Riddle say something in Parseltongue. (Even Harry can be charmed this way, Riddle just needs to ask a minion to do that.) In any case, there's no need for Parseltongue. We know that Voldemort has threatened Death Eaters in the past, and presumably kept his word. Snape is a former Death Eater, so he would believe Riddle now.

6) The obvious way to single out Lucius is to provide proof that he wasn't Imperiused to become a Death Eater. Since Riddle is the one who didn't Imperius him in the first place, such proof shouldn't be too hard to find.

On the other hand, if you choose to frame Lucius for burning Narcissa, the obvious motive is infidelity, or betraying Death Eaters to Dumbledore (as she did in canon at some point), or any number of other reasons why people kill their spouses. And if you imagine yourself as Lucius, then accusing Dumbledore afterwards is also an obvious move, because you don't want to admit to Draco that you've killed his mother, you know that Dumbledore had a clear motive (see the bit about Aberforth in Ch. 82), and no one else would be crazy enough to attack your family.

HPMOR has just too many plot devices! I can probably justify anything at this point. Maybe I should write an alternate explanation of everything that happened before the Truth arc, because Eliezer's explanation doesn't feel very satisfying to me, to be honest.

Comment author: DanArmak 23 February 2015 06:19:12PM 1 point [-]

We know that Voldemort has threatened Death Eaters in the past, and presumably kept his word. Snape is a former Death Eater, so he would believe Riddle now.

But the claim that Voldemort will return immediately if killed, even if killed tens of times, and can even leave his body at will without dying and possess someone else, is very novel and Snape would have no particular reason to believe it.

Snape would reason correctly that if Voldemort wins, he would punish Snape anyway, for his betrayal during Voldemort's absence. So Snape would try to help Dumbledore and not Voldemort as long as he has a hope of success.

The obvious way to single out Lucius is to provide proof that he wasn't Imperiused to become a Death Eater. Since Riddle is the one who didn't Imperius him in the first place, such proof shouldn't be too hard to find.

This isn't clear to me. Maybe Voldemort can find proof just because he's powerful and good at proof-finding. But it wouldn't be because he didn't Imperius him. Especially since he couldn't present evidence that revealed that it was being presented, or had been collected, by Voldemort.

Comment author: Velorien 23 February 2015 06:34:48PM 2 points [-]

Snape would reason correctly that if Voldemort wins, he would punish Snape anyway, for his betrayal during Voldemort's absence. So Snape would try to help Dumbledore and not Voldemort as long as he has a hope of success.

Alternatively, Snape would reason correctly that Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix failed to beat Voldemort before, having to be rescued by an unrepeatable deus ex machina, and they'll fail to beat him again, especially now that he's returned with greater knowledge and power, and proven immortality.

Comment author: ChristianKl 22 February 2015 07:23:31PM 1 point [-]

baby Harry wasn't affected at all.

Baby Harry did at least get a scar.

Comment author: Benito 21 February 2015 07:09:45PM *  13 points [-]

Old jokes from chapter 79:

"You are making highly questionable assumptions," the Defense Professor said with an edged voice. "What makes you think I did not steal his body outright using incredibly Dark magic?"

And also

"I suggest," the Auror said, "that you take this seriously, Mr. Whoever-You-Are."

He's Mr. You-Know-Who.

Comment author: Epictetus 21 February 2015 06:14:50PM 1 point [-]

A thought occurs: how do we know the Stone is actually at the end of the gauntlet? Is there anything to keep Dumbledore from setting up the traps as a decoy to flush out Voldemort while the real stone is elsewhere (and presumably under proper security)?

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2015 06:26:21PM *  2 points [-]

The Stone is probably there because Quirrel covered how he led Flamel to believe the Stone had to be actually in the trap before it would work; ch108:

"Did you bluff everyone into believing you had some way of finding the Stone?" Harry said aloud. "So that Perenelle would put it inside Hogwarts, where Dumbledore could guard it?"

The Defense Professor sighed, not looking up from the cauldron. "I suppose that strategem would be futile to conceal from you. Yes, after I possessed Quirrell and returned, I implemented a strategy I had conceived while gazing at the stars. First I made sure to be accepted as Defense Professor at Hogwarts, for it would not do to have suspicions raised while I was still seeking employment. When that was done, I arranged for one of Perenelle's curse-breaking expeditions to discover a falsified but credible inscription describing how the Crown of the Serpent could be used to seek out the Stone wherever it was hidden. Immediately after, before Perenelle could buy up the Crown, it was stolen; furthermore I left clear indications that the thief had possessed the power to speak to snakes. So Perenelle thought that I could infallibly find the Stone's location, and that it needed a guardian powerful enough to defeat me. That is how the Stone came to be held in Hogwarts, in Dumbledore's domain. Just as I intended, naturally, since I had already gained access to Hogwarts for the year. I think that is all of this that concerns you, if I speak not of future plans."

Comment author: Epictetus 21 February 2015 06:52:07PM 1 point [-]

He arranged for the Stone to be in Hogwarts. Whether it's at the end of that particular series of traps is not entirely certain. I'm sure someone like Moody would point out the flaws inherent in a system that students can penetrate. Why not just stick it in the Room of Requirement or some hidden room that only the Headmaster can access (and use proper security)?

Comment author: dxu 22 February 2015 08:09:27PM *  1 point [-]

Why not just stick it in the Room of Requirement or some hidden room that only the Headmaster can access (and use proper security)?

Because then (from Flamel's perspective) the Dark Lord would use the Crown of the Serpent and find that the Stone was not, in fact, at the end of the dungeon crawl, which would then nullify the purpose of the trap: to lure the Dark Lord there. (Presumably the Dark Lord would see no point in traipsing past all of those obstacles if the Stone wasn't there.)

Flamel would then insist upon the Stone being placed under Dumbledore's "best protections", meaning... huh. Is this series of obstacles really the best Dumbledore can do? For that matter, if Flamel taught Dumbledore so much of his powerful magic, presumably he/she knows much more powerful magic ("more" in terms of quantity, at least--not necessarily strength) that he/she hasn't seen fit to teach yet. Why not just protect the Stone himself?

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2015 08:11:17PM *  1 point [-]

Whether it's at the end of that particular series of traps is not entirely certain.

Certainly if Dumbledore & Flamel knew that the Crown stuff was a bluff, they could put it elsewhere in Hogwarts. But they don't. Why build an elaborate trap for an enemy who (you believe) will follow the scent to somewhere else entirely ("the Stone wherever it was hidden")?

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 09:00:40PM 4 points [-]

But why endanger the students by challenging them with a Forbidden Corridor that happens to be the place Voldemort is going to attack?

Comment author: Gurkenglas 22 February 2015 12:13:50AM *  3 points [-]

To have a public reason for a dungeon crawl inside your school. When you multiply it over, the danger posed by Voldemort is not enhanced that much by this move.

Comment author: DanArmak 22 February 2015 08:55:25AM 1 point [-]

He didn't announce the Stone as a public reason for the Forbidden Corridor.

Comment author: Gurkenglas 22 February 2015 12:51:17PM 1 point [-]

He doesn't need a reason for a dungeon crawl in Hogwarts because that's the kind of thing Dumbledore would do. He does need a reason for a series of actually off-limits deadly traps.

Comment author: Velorien 22 February 2015 01:27:45PM *  -2 points [-]

Citation needed. What else has Dumbledore done that remotely resembles setting up a dungeon crawl in Hogwarts? The closest I can think of is this:

“I have also been asked by Mr. Filch, the caretaker, to remind you all that no magic should be used between classes in the corridors. Alas, we all know that what should be, and what is, are two different things. Thank you for keeping this in mind.”

Which, in retrospect, sounds like Dumbledore is encouraging bullying more than anything else.

Comment author: DanArmak 22 February 2015 07:14:01PM 1 point [-]

Using magic isn't limited to bullying.

Comment author: DanArmak 22 February 2015 07:14:30PM 1 point [-]

What he needs a reason for is putting the dungeon drawl in the same place as the deadly traps.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 06:29:24PM *  2 points [-]

But Voldemort doesn't actually have a way of finding the Stone. So given that the rooms meant for students don't actually protect the Stone from Voldemort, Dumbledore could have created several similar final-rooms, equally protected, and placed the rooms meant for students in front of one of the wrong ones.

And if Dumbledore has any way of protecting the Stone inside Hogwarts that's better than placing it in a usually-unguarded room fool of traps and spells, then he would have used it, but still created the room full of traps and spells as a decoy.

As long as Dumbledore isn't completely certain Voldemort can in fact find the Stone, this would be a smart thing to do. Voldemort bluffed Flamel, who (as portrayed by Voldemort) isn't really smart, but Dumbledore may not be fully convinced. (He's been trying to convince Flamel to remove the Stone from Hogwarts.)

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2015 06:44:42PM 1 point [-]

Dumbledore could have created several similar final-rooms, equally protected, and placed the rooms meant for students in front of one of the wrong ones.

Then he would expect Voldemort, using something like a map or scrying or just being clever, to know that the student rooms weren't the real trap and so those are a waste of effort.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 07:22:05PM *  2 points [-]

But how would Voldemort know the other rooms even existed, or where they were in Hogwarts (before he acquired the Map)?

He knows about these rooms because Dumbledore deliberately drew the whole school's attention to them, and when Voldemort tried looking in, he saw very powerful spells guarding them. That sounds exactly like a trap to me. And a trap is something you set even if you anticipate a low chance of success.

The one reason so far to believe these are the right rooms (though I am not fully convinced) is that Snape was guarding them.

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2015 08:06:41PM 2 points [-]

He would know - if you were Dumbledore/Flamel, with a healthy respect for the devious mind of the greatest dark wizard ever, who has a particular gift for finding out secrets, making a mockery of his foes' plans, and generally being a complete pain in the ass - because he did incredibly Dark magic to defeat your hiding of the rooms. Since you believe he knows where the Stone is, thanks to the Crown, he'll be able to focus his efforts in looking for secrets and traps around the Stone.

Comment author: Romashka 21 February 2015 09:04:16PM 5 points [-]

Or Dumbledore can be carrying the Stone on his own person all the time, because even though Flamel insisted it be in Hogwarts, 1) the strongest protection the castle can offer is an 'adult wizard', in Quirrell's terminology, 2) it is inconsistent with Dumbledor's morals to set up a scenario in which a student can actually die, no matter how possessed, 3) canon!Dumbledore said once that he only took the Elder Wand to protect others, but not to rule, and that would be a nod to Rowling, 4) if he knows the wards have been tempered with, then it is at least weak evidence that Voldemort (or whoever in the castle can speak to snakes and has the Crown) has bluffed and the Stone, after a while, can be returned to Perenelle...

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 08:59:05PM 4 points [-]

Dumbledore, unlike Flamel, may not fully believe Voldemort can really use the Crown to find the Stone. Otherwise why would Dumbledore ask Flamel to remove the Stone from Hogwarts - does he really care more about the safety of a few students than about Voldemort getting the Stone? If so, he could prepare alternative traps, just on the chance he is right.

Also, whatever he believes, there's no reason for him to mark the true location of the Stone with corridors to which he directs the Gryffindor students. That just increases the chances that Voldemort will use the students to get at the Stone, or will encounter some of them while there, and harm them. Why would Dumbledore not separate the Stone's guardroom from his challenge to the students, unless he doesn't think Voldemort can locate the stone, and is using the students' forbidden corridor to lure Voldemort into a trap?

Comment author: cousin_it 21 February 2015 02:45:29PM 8 points [-]

So, why did Quirrell offer Hermione to leave before killing her?

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 03:09:26PM 4 points [-]

That's a good question. Quirrel said:

I killed Miss Granger to improve your position relative to that of Lucius Malfoy, since my plans did not call for him to have so much leverage over you.

Killing her allowed Harry to put the dilemma to Lucius Malfoy, that either Lucius had killed her, or some other enemy was behind both her death and the attack on Draco. And that led to Lucius returning Harry's money and renouncing the accusation that Hermione, sworn to the House of Potter, had attacked Draco.

If she left, none of that would have happened.

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2015 06:36:29PM 17 points [-]

It seems to be a character trait that he tries to allow opponents a way out if they're smart enough: a chance to lose, if you will. He offered Harry's mother a deal rather than simply killing her, he offered Skeeter a chance to make amends before killing her, he offers the Auror a stun or an AK, he offered the master a chance to teach him rather than die - and he offered Hermione a chance to stop being the heroine opposed to the dark lord.

In each instance, the character chose... poorly.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 06:40:21PM 3 points [-]

I agree.

He offered Harry's mother a deal rather than simply killing her

That one was a trick though. He never intended to kill Harry, just to cast a Horcrux 1.0 on him, which needs a murder to activate. That's why he was amused when he offered 'yourself to die, and the child to live' - because it was his plan to kill her and leave Harry alive anyway.

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2015 06:47:04PM 2 points [-]

I'm not sure it was such a trick. She could have killed herself, or she could have surprised him such that he was not prepared to use her death to turn Harry into a Horcrux, in which case, frustrated of his primary goal, he would have settled for AKing the baby to try to block the prophecy more normally. Both parties prefer a binding deal in which the mother dies and the infant survives.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 07:19:48PM *  1 point [-]

There was no possible reason for her to kill herself. And if he couldn't use her death, he would have taken Harry and gone on to murder the first convenient person he encountered to make the horcrux, delaying him by a few hours at most.

Since Snape had begged Voldemort not to kill Lily, he was going to let her live ("move aside, foolish woman!"), and taken the trouble to hunt down someone else to kill for the horcrux. But since she offered herself to die, he agreed, and was amused.

Comment author: gwern 21 February 2015 08:09:47PM *  8 points [-]

There was no possible reason for her to kill herself.

'No possible reason'? Here's 4 off the top of my head. She could kill herself to avoid being tortured to insanity & then death. That's always a good reason. She could kill herself to frustrate Voldemort and deprive him of the satisfaction of killing her himself (also a classic, dating back at least to Masada). She could kill herself after he offers the deal, reasoning that even if you don't understand why, it's a good policy to try to prevent whatever your enemy wants. She could kill herself as part of a nasty ritual or black magic.

And if he couldn't use her death, he would have taken Harry and gone on to murder the first convenient person he encountered to make the horcrux, delaying him by a few hours at most.

When does Voldemort ever linger at the scene of a crime for multiple hours? I'm fairly sure that would violate some Rule or other. No, simpler if the plan fails to fallback to killing Harry directly and making a timely retreat as a dark lord should.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 08:50:46PM 0 points [-]

What I meant was that there was no reason for her to kill herself in order to help Harry. When I read your previous comment:

I'm not sure it was such a trick. She could have killed herself

I didn't parse to mean "Voldemort bargained with her to make sure she didn't kill herself, so he could kill her instead". But yes, that's a plausible interpretation, if victims of Voldemort sometimes killed themselves for any of the reasons you give.

When does Voldemort ever linger at the scene of a crime for multiple hours? I'm fairly sure that would violate some Rule or other. No, simpler if the plan fails to fallback to killing Harry directly and making a timely retreat as a dark lord should.

He needn't linger there; he could just take Harry and leave with him. Before he created the Horcrux, Harry had no particular protection from Voldemort.

Comment author: ChristianKl 21 February 2015 12:07:22PM 5 points [-]

For the next few centuries the Goblet of Fire was used to oversee pointless inter-school tournaments, and then it resided in a disused chamber at Beauxbatons, until I finally stole it."

What did he do with it once he stole it?

Comment author: Astazha 22 February 2015 02:02:11AM 5 points [-]

Became the Defense Professor at Hogwarts without any fear of being required to make a binding promise with the Goblet of Fire. He's making sure history doesn't repeat itself.

Comment author: azuredarkness 21 February 2015 09:56:17PM 1 point [-]

Made it into a Horcrux, obviously :)

Comment author: cousin_it 21 February 2015 11:38:41AM *  6 points [-]

What the hell? Making horcruxes for your friends doesn't actually test the invention. You also need to kill your friends and hope that the invention works. That doesn't sound so nice, does it? And we don't have a good explanation why Riddle missed this idea anymore.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 06:25:28PM *  6 points [-]

You don't have to test it on your friends; you can test it on your enemies, or on bystanders you don't care about, or in Voldemort's case, on minions you don't care about.

Get a random wizard off the street (if you're Voldemort) or a prisoner you're going to kill anyway (if you're ethical). Control them by Imperius, Legilimizing, or plain threats. Have them make a Horcrux. Kill them and activate the horcrux on a second person you're willing to kill. Test the result. When done, kill the second person and destroy the Horcrux.

Comment author: cousin_it 21 February 2015 06:27:38PM 5 points [-]

Yeah, that's why I said "we don't have a good explanation why Riddle missed this idea anymore".

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 06:41:52PM 16 points [-]

Harry thinks it's because making a Horcrux for someone else pattern-matches "teaching your most powerful spells to others", which pattern-matches "helping others altruistically", and Voldemort has an ugh field around that concept, or at least a blind spot. For what it's worth, Voldemort agreed with this analysis.

Comment author: gjm 21 February 2015 04:44:03PM 7 points [-]

Make them for lots of friends, friends who like you lead dangerous lives and who unlike you are not vastly more powerful than every other wizard around. Some of them will likely die soon enough.

Comment author: DefectiveAlgorithm 21 February 2015 12:32:30PM 18 points [-]

I don't think Harry meant to imply that actually running this test would be nice, but rather that one cannot even think of running this test without first thinking of the possibility of making a horcrux for someone else (something which is more-or-less nice-ish in itself, the amorality inherent in creating a horcrux at all notwithstanding).

Comment author: ChristianKl 21 February 2015 12:32:10PM 6 points [-]

You just need a friend who would otherwise die soon, so that the risk of permanent death is worth eternal life.

Comment author: tim 21 February 2015 11:36:37AM *  2 points [-]

Has it been previously established that no lying can take place when using parseltongue or is Harry's belief in this based solely on his inability to lie to Quirrell?

Comment author: ChristianKl 21 February 2015 12:32:35PM 4 points [-]

His belief is based on Quirrell telling him and on his inability.

Comment author: Benito 21 February 2015 08:43:04AM 8 points [-]

he was an annoyance from my year in Slytherin

How odd. You think the Order would've mentioned that Riddle and Monroe were in the same year at school.

Comment author: Unknowns 21 February 2015 03:57:08AM 6 points [-]

I just read up to the point in chapter 108 where Voldemort refuses to answer the question about the immortality spell (and haven't read the comments here yet.) It occurred to me immediately that since this is question about the past -- assuming Voldemort has already cast the spell -- that he has broken his agreement, which means that Harry can now start executing plans to overcome him, and say "No" without lying when Voldemort asks if he has betrayed him.

Comment author: shminux 21 February 2015 02:37:02AM 6 points [-]

So far the update schedule seems to follow the Fibonacci sequence.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 21 February 2015 04:02:49AM 1 point [-]

I sincerely hope that pattern doesn't stick.

The hourly countdown seems likely, though.

Comment author: gjm 21 February 2015 09:48:22AM 3 points [-]

If the pattern continues then it is impossible for the posting to end on "pi day", the 14th of March.

Comment author: Velorien 21 February 2015 08:27:04AM 3 points [-]

Further bonus trivia: 108 is the number of worldly sins according to Buddhism. Given that this is heavily referenced in anime and manga, which Eliezer enjoys, the fact that it's the chapter in which Voldemort's backstory is revealed is unlikely to be coincidental.

Comment author: polymathwannabe 21 February 2015 02:18:07PM *  6 points [-]

Aaaaand there were 107 horcruxes (meaning 107 murders) before he stopped keeping count.

Comment author: Manfred 21 February 2015 08:44:30AM 8 points [-]

I think it is highly likely to be coincidental :P

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 02:16:26AM 16 points [-]

Quirrel says:

the fact is that Miss Greengrass was not supposed to arrive in that corridor for several hours. I am not sure why her party arrived in Mr. Malfoy's company, and had Mr. Nott arrived seemingly alone, events would have played out less farcically.

That seems very important, so why didn't he ask any of them why they arrived early? It looks like a blatant mistake on his part.

Comment author: solipsist 23 February 2015 03:46:16AM *  6 points [-]

I agree -- this is central to figuring out the next few chapters. My best guess is that Harry said "Hello, Voldemort" so that an invisible Cedric Diggory could overhear. Diggory could time-turn one hour back to tell Dumbledore at 5:55 or so, or, alternatively, could inform Dumbledore after 6:55. Dumbledore himself has a time-turner, so as long as Diggory gave no information from after 7:00 Dumbldore could travel back 6 hours from then. Dumbledore knows that Harry is Riddle, so he probably has some aces up his sleeve.

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 21 February 2015 01:35:32AM -2 points [-]

I have a cunning plan:

What constraints are Harry working under?

The deadman switch hostage killer cannot have go off because they are timeturned, and the deaths of hundreds of students would surely cause a paradox by disrupting the match. Its possible that it sets a timer to go off after Harry jumps back in time, but then presuming that Harry knows exactly when he jumped back and Quirrel does not, Harry can then warn the teachers before the bomb goes off. At the end of the day, even if the hostages die, hundreds of lives are a small price to pay for stopping Voldemort.

If Quirrel dies, he will come back and torture Harry's parents. But presumably it will take Quirrel a little time to possess his new host. If the accessible Horocruxes are scattered throughout the world, then he will probably have to apperate back to the UK, which could take several jumps. Meanwhile, all Harry has to do is send his patronus to Dumbledoor, who can then Phoenix travel to Oxford, and should get there first, bringing Harry's parents back to the comparative safety of Hogwarts.

Quirrel cannot directly hurt Harry using magic, but he has a gun and the reflexes of a martial artist, plus he has the strength of an adult, so despite being ill he can probably overpower Harry if Harry managed to grab the gun.

Harry could transfigure a knife, but this wouldn't work, mostly because it would take some time, Voldemort would notice, and shoot him. So, a possible solution: transfigure a knife, but with the electrons swapped out for muons. Muons have higher mass, so the muon orbitals are far smaller than electron orbitals, so the material will be denser, and I think also stronger. Because of this, the blade can be made much thinner, and so easily concealed, perhaps to the extent of being invisible. The blade could be attached to Harry's wand, which could serve as a handle. It can penetrate Quirrel's shields, because his magic cannot interact with an object Harry has transfigured.

This still leaves the problem of fighting an immortal dark wizard with hundreds of Horocruxes. The next time Voldemort attacks, he will have got Bellatrix to cast shielding spells over him, which can stop any transfigured objects Harry throws at him. But by that time, Harry can have the order of the phoenix fighting at his side.

I imagine Volde attacking Hogwarts again and again, and everytime he is killed, possessing a new body and returning to the fight minutes later, while dead teachers and aurors stay dead (or do they, given the stone?) meanwhile, Harry desperately tries to think of a plan before the defenders are slowly worn down.

Comment author: orthonormal 21 February 2015 04:04:20AM 3 points [-]

Voldemort took Harry's wand away already.

Comment author: Astazha 21 February 2015 12:58:53PM 2 points [-]

It's been suggested that he might have grabbed Snape's when they fell down together, but it doesn't seem real plausible to me that the Defense Professor didn't notice that and isn't capable of seeing that Harry has a magical item on his person. I can't rule it out though; there is a symmetry with him falling down at Gringotts.

Comment author: azuredarkness 21 February 2015 10:14:41PM 6 points [-]

There's also this (c. 106):

Harry turned, and set foot on the giant plant, and began to walk down the spiral staircase provided by the leaves. It had taken Harry too long this time, but he'd recovered himself to some degree, despite the grief still weighing him down like thick water. It wasn't a cold steel rod in his spine, but it was something straight and solid nonetheless.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 01:16:31AM 6 points [-]

When the Dumbledore sees himself on the Map in chapter 79, it initials his middle names:

When he was alone in the room, the old wizard looked down at the map, which had now written upon itself a fine line drawing of the Gryffindor dorms in which they stood, the small handwritten Albus P.W.B. Dumbledore the only name left therein.

But when it shows the Tom Riddles, it doesn't include the middle initial M.

This is probably just an oversight.

Comment author: Spurlock 21 February 2015 01:10:31AM *  12 points [-]

I wanted it to be an anagram of my name, but that would only have worked if I'd conveniently been given the middle name of 'Marvolo', and then it would have been a stretch. Our actual middle name is Morfin, if you're curious.

Morfin is a Riddle family name, so we can probably rule out Eliezer choosing it for its anagrams. Nevertheless, might as well have some fun:

Tom Morfin Riddle

  • Mini from toddler
  • Firm doom tendril
  • Mind meld for riot
  • Mind for time lord
  • Dirt mod of Merlin
  • MOR died from lint
  • Mr. Flirted in Doom

What else?

Comment author: Gondolinian 21 February 2015 10:12:05PM *  0 points [-]

'Mort dried no film

Comment author: fubarobfusco 21 February 2015 02:21:00AM *  13 points [-]

Norm Modifier, Ltd.
Dim dolt informer
Find old Mortimer
Doom mind trifler
I'm Milton Redford
I'm Milford rodent
Florid Tinder mom

And, ultimately ...

Lord Tim, [the] Informed

"There are some who call me ... Tim."

Comment author: moridinamael 22 February 2015 05:04:13AM 7 points [-]

Firm dildo mentor

Comment author: UnclGhost 21 February 2015 02:33:46AM 1 point [-]

I wonder if he's just getting a new name for arbitrary reasons (like HPJEV, Bellatrix, etc.), for just this sort of anagram fun, or for some story-related significance to his mother naming him after her brother instead of her father?

Comment author: CellBioGuy 21 February 2015 02:17:26AM *  3 points [-]

Dirt mod of Merlin

Terraforming tool?

Mind meld for riot

Not that dissimilar to what set up the confrontation in the hallway...

Comment author: Gondolinian 21 February 2015 01:38:48AM 5 points [-]

MOR died from lint

Always the one you least expect...

Comment author: DanielLC 21 February 2015 02:37:57AM 2 points [-]

Maybe it was a horcrux.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 01:30:20AM 11 points [-]

On Reddit, Eliezer endorsed these:

I hereby declare that two of the Defense Professor's past identities have included Mr. Fiddlemonitor and [I'm] Lord Demonrift.

Comment author: Subbak 21 February 2015 01:04:29AM 10 points [-]

I must say, the thought of Voldie kicking himself (well, wanting to, but he couldn't because no legs) while spending nine years as a disembodied spirit in the Voyager Plaque was extremely amusing.

I also loved the fact that his Voldemort persona was designed to be a stupid Dark Lord that would last weeks at most and ended up being way too strong for Magical Britain.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 01:58:01AM 5 points [-]

One wonders how Lucius Malfoy, and Draco, will react to hearing all of this.

Comment author: Gondolinian 21 February 2015 01:45:46AM *  14 points [-]

One of my favorite bits:

I tried weakening Voldemort's attacks, to see if it was possible for him to lose; at once the Ministry committed fewer Aurors to oppose me!

Comment author: Gondolinian 21 February 2015 12:47:27AM 5 points [-]

[META]

Is anyone in favor of going back to the old system of having one discussion thread per HPMOR chapter instead of the current system based on number of comments?

Submitting...

Comment author: Alsadius 21 February 2015 03:16:54PM *  2 points [-]

I will point out, one per 500 comments was the old system. There was ~30 threads for the first ~100 chapters.

Comment author: see 21 February 2015 05:39:31AM 6 points [-]

Note that this poll only samples people who care about these threads enough to read them. People who avoid these threads and don't like them cluttering /discussion will not see it.

Comment author: Eitan_Zohar 22 February 2015 03:46:54PM -1 points [-]

I'm not seeing why that should be relevant...?

Comment author: Gondolinian 21 February 2015 04:32:00PM *  7 points [-]

Fair point, though I feel like that logic is sort of letting them cause a comparatively large disruption to our enjoyment of real-time discussion of the final arc of a fiction we've been following for years, in return for the prevention of a comparatively small temporary disruption to their enjoyment of the Discussion forum. Scope, of course, plays a part here, but I doubt it's remotely enough on the side of the 500 comments people to tip the scales.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 12:01:44AM *  6 points [-]

Is Quirrel aware of all the people whom he can possess via his True Horcruxes? Can he possess any one of them at will, without the original body dying?

This may explain the fact that he occasionally leaves his host body. We thought it was to inhabit his other horcruxes, particularly the Voyager one, but it may be to possess other people.

ETA: apparently the answer is yes:

Professor Quirrell smiled slightly. "I had many years earlier considered making [the Resurrection Stone] a horcrux, but decided against it at the time, since I realized that the ring had magic of unknown nature... ah, such ironies does life play upon us. But I digress. You, boy, you brought that about, you freed my spirit to fly where it pleases and seduce the most opportune victim, by being too casual with your secrets."

Comment author: Desrtopa 23 February 2015 02:36:09AM 3 points [-]

He's made it pretty clear that he can abandon his current body without needing to wait for it to die, but it's not clear whether he's able to temporarily leave and return. It might be that leaving the body would mean simply letting it die. Whether he can or not, that's probably not what he's doing whenever he's in "off" mode, because he's been doing that since before Harry revealed to him the identity of the Resurrection Stone.

Comment author: jimrandomh 20 February 2015 11:54:11PM 17 points [-]

"There's something that would make you happier than that," Harry said, his voice breaking again. "There has to be."

Muggle research in the 2010s has revealed much about what actually makes people happy, and how often people are deceived. The best way to find out is with one of those mood-tracking cell phone apps, which eliminate the biases of memory. Quirrell doesn't have that, but as an approximation, I searched the PDF for the word "smile", which appears 310 times in chapters 1-106, and the word "enjoy", which appears 32 times. What did I find?

“Do you know,” the Defense Professor said in soft reflective tones, “there are those who have tried to soften my darker moods, and those who have indeed participated in brightening my day, but you are the first person ever to succeed in doing it deliberately?”

Interacting with Harry makes Quirrell happy. Moreso than killing idiots. Moreso than teaching Battle Magic. Killing him would be a grave mistake.

Comment author: falenas108 21 February 2015 12:25:09AM -1 points [-]

"you are the first person ever to succeed in doing it deliberately?”

Having Quirrell kill someone wouldn't count as them cheering him up deliberately.

Comment author: DanArmak 21 February 2015 01:23:32AM 12 points [-]

When Lord Voldemort was feeling down, Bella would bring him chocolate and idiots to kill to cheer him up. I don't know why it never worked.

Comment author: itaibn0 21 February 2015 02:35:24AM 3 points [-]

That quote is from chapter 74. I mention this because you didn't specify and to save the trouble for others to search.

Comment author: DanielLC 21 February 2015 02:33:17AM 3 points [-]

Too bad the 2010s haven't happened yet.

Moreso than killing idiots.

We haven't seen him kill idiots, so we don't know how happy that makes him.

Comment author: Velorien 21 February 2015 08:21:49AM 1 point [-]

From his perspective, Firenze would have been an idiot, and killing him didn't result in any visible sign of happiness.

Comment author: Desrtopa 23 February 2015 02:15:37AM 1 point [-]

Eh, Firenze was taking initiative to dispose of a major problem even if it required actions he considered morally distasteful. Compared to Quirrell, he's pretty dumb, but he hasn't distinguished himself for idiocy the way, say, the Ministry official who took self-destructive joy in obstructing him did. If anything, he probably distinguished himself as cleverer than the norm, if not in any way a peer.

Comment author: Velorien 23 February 2015 10:38:24AM 1 point [-]

On the other hand, Firenze's mistake was going into self-indulgent rambling instead of just killing the person he wanted to kill (especially with the stakes apparently as high as the survival of the universe). I get the feeling that Voldemort, who had his own Evil Overlord List, would find this particularly distasteful.

Comment author: Subbak 23 February 2015 08:02:02PM 1 point [-]

Well, given his actions in the past he can hardly call this idiocy worthy of being killed. Also, Firenze was not annoying him by being an idiot, he was annoying him by threatening Harry, for whom he had other plans.

Comment author: Bugmaster 21 February 2015 01:18:08AM 2 points [-]

Killing him would be a grave mistake.

As far as I understand, Quirrell believes (or claims to believe) that killing Harry will put him one step closer to fulfilling his CEV. Thus, any amusement Harry could provide is to Quirrel kind of like as ice cream is to us mortals: a minor, fleeting, and ultimately inconsequential pleasure.

Comment author: Vika 21 February 2015 12:40:58AM 9 points [-]

The book is mostly from Harry's perspective, so I would expect some selection bias in searching for interactions that make Quirrell happy, since most of the interactions described are with Harry as the protagonist. I agree with your conclusion though.

Comment author: higurashimerlin 20 February 2015 11:27:19PM 10 points [-]

Voldemort making random rocks into horcruxs? One day someone steps on the wrong rock and turns into LORD VOLDEMORT! I hate it when that happens.

Comment author: linkhyrule5 20 February 2015 11:31:51PM 8 points [-]

It's worse than that. What's something you're likely to have on hand at all times, and worse, are then likely to hand off to someone other person, who will hand it off to another, and so on and so forth?

Even if wizarding currency is protected against such shenanigans, some unknown number of UK sterling could have fractions of Voldemort's soul in them.

Comment author: skeptical_lurker 21 February 2015 12:18:18AM 2 points [-]

I was thinking a door handle, or a hand rail in a busy area.

Comment author: polymathwannabe 21 February 2015 12:21:19AM -1 points [-]

How about a bullet? Make things appear like someone was the victim of an attempted murder, and have them "survive" with your identity hidden in them.

Comment author: higurashimerlin 20 February 2015 11:57:46PM 1 point [-]

Yeah the new version stills work by imprinting his brain state on to a victim. He just link the ghost and victims together so that they stay updated. Hence he can see space from the plague. The resurrection stone allows the ghost in the objects to move on their own and possess people without them touching them.