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Astazha comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, February 2015, chapter 108 - Less Wrong Discussion

5 Post author: b_sen 20 February 2015 09:53PM

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Comment author: Astazha 21 February 2015 09:24:02PM 21 points [-]

And then one year Baba Yaga agreed to teach Battle Magic at Hogwarts, under an old and respected truce." Professor Quirrell looked... angry, a look such as Harry had rarely seen on him. "But she was not trusted, and so there was invoked a curse.

And although Perenelle was new-come into the beauty of her youth, her heart was already blacker than Baba Yaga's own -"

Ah, yes, Perenelle, the beautiful and covetous. Perenelle seduced the Dark Lady over the months, with gentle touches and flirtations and the shy pretense of innocence. The Dark Lady's heart was captured, and they became lovers. And then one night Perenelle whispered how she had heard of Baba Yaga's shape-changing power and how this thought had enflamed her desires; thus Perenelle swayed Baba Yaga to come to her with the Stone in hand, to assume many guises in a single night, for their pleasures. Among other forms Perenelle bid Baba Yaga take the form of a man; and they lay together in the fashion of a man and a woman.

Does anyone else think this reads like Quirrel has an awful lot of emotional connection to and personal memories about this story, almost as if it were Baba Yaga speaking about herself in the 3rd person? Could Riddle or Quirrel have come across a Baba Yaga horcrux? The resurrection stone, perhaps? Earlier than that? Why would Perenelle share these secrets? How would anyone know these details if Baba Yaga was dead and Perenelle had not shared them? No one else would have been present for those private moments.

And what are the odds that a Dark Lady like Baba Yaga did not have a horcrux?

In Ch. 70 Quirrel makes a point during the S.P.H.E.W. confrontation with the headmaster that Dark Ladies are also underrepresented, and that few could name one except Baba Yaga. Self-reference?

She would probably need to be faking the map labelling her (and Harry?) as Tom Riddle, but a sorceress as powerful as Baba Yaga combined with the secrets of Salazar, who created the Hogwarts security system in the first place, could probably accomplish that.

Notice what Quirrel does and doesn't say in parseltongue:

"None of it iss known to me to be falsse," said Professor Quirrell. "Telling a tale implies filling in certain gaps; I was not present to observe when Perenelle seduced Baba Yaga. The bassicss sshould be mosstly correct, I think."

Comment author: Vulture 21 February 2015 09:55:05PM 7 points [-]

This makes some sense, but if Quirrell could bamboozle the map, surely he wouldn't do so in such a way as to reveal vitally important and damaging secrets to his enemies.

Comment author: Astazha 22 February 2015 01:51:12AM 0 points [-]

I can't figure out what you mean by "reveal vitally important and damaging secrets to his enemies." Would you expand on that please?

Comment author: [deleted] 22 February 2015 02:24:19AM 4 points [-]

Quirrell and Harry both show up on the map as "Tom M. Riddle". Is there any reason why Baba Quirrell would want that to happen?

Comment author: Astazha 22 February 2015 04:04:11AM 2 points [-]

I'm not sure what is gained by convincing Harry that he is Riddle, whether it is true or not, but Quirrel communicated that before the map came into play so it is clear that s/he wants Harry to believe that Harry is Riddle. Quirrel is also acknowledging that he is Voldemort, so them both showing up on the map as Riddle is confirmation of what has already been said rather than new information.

I thought maybe you were talking about the scribbles over the mirror room, but I don't know what to make of that at all so I can't even attempt to interpret it though the "Quirrel is or is co-habited by Baba Yaga" lens.

Comment author: [deleted] 23 February 2015 03:52:55AM 1 point [-]

Scribbles over the mirror room? I'm asking why Baba Quirrellmort would want himself and Harry to show up as "Tom M. Riddle" on the map. (Which reveals to anyone who has the map that Q = V and H = V, which reveals the horcrux thing...)

Comment author: jkaufman 23 February 2015 04:12:24PM 1 point [-]

The map may not have shown that at other times. Dumbledore didn't remark on it when he asked "find Tom Riddle". ("Harry? You're Tom Riddle? WTF?) All we know is that the map currently says they're both Riddle.

Comment author: Astazha 23 February 2015 07:43:00PM 0 points [-]

It wouldn't have always said that, it would have been changed right there in the moment for Harry's benefit. I don't know why, but again the map isn't providing new information, it's confirming what Quirrel already said.

Comment author: solipsist 23 February 2015 04:48:17AM 3 points [-]

If you want text to run with this idea, that text would be:

"Here of course we have the Sorting Hat, I believe the two of you have met. It told me that it was never again to be placed on your head under any circumstances. You're only the fourteenth student in history it's said that about, Baba Yaga was another one and I'll tell you about the other twelve when you're older"

(Chapter 17)

and

You decided that in the beginning, all the way back in the beginning of this year, when the Sorting Hat offered you Hufflepuff. Which I know about, because I received a similar offer and warning all those years ago, and I refused it just as you did. Beyond this there is little more to say, between Tom Riddles.

(Chapter 108)

Comment author: solipsist 23 February 2015 03:23:49PM 2 points [-]

...and if you want a counter-hypothesis, the only line quoted in which Quirrell seems to have an emotional reaction is:

And then one year Baba Yaga agreed to teach Battle Magic at Hogwarts, under an old and respected truce." Professor Quirrell looked... angry, a look such as Harry had rarely seen on him. "But she was not trusted, and so there was invoked a curse.

Dumbledore did not allow Tom Riddle to teach Battle Magic.

Comment author: Astazha 23 February 2015 07:56:39PM 0 points [-]

That could explain the anger. There's still a lot of detail about the bedroom, though you could assume that Quirrel used legilemens on Flamel to find the truth about the stone. That seems really direct and dangerous, but Perenelle may not be an occlumens at all, and from Ch. 86:

"And I'll warn you of this but once. Voldie isn't like any other Legilimens in recorded history. He doesn't need to look you in the eyes, and if your shields are that rusty he'd creep in so softly you'd never notice a thing."

As DavidAgain pointed out above, there seems to be a parseltongue statement against tricking the map as well.

Something is still off about this, though. Suddenly Quirrel is spinning a romance narrative? Also, here is a clever, ambition student, who in her 6th year outwitted the most powerful dark sorceress we know of and obtained for herself an ancient immortality-granting artifact. She sought immortality while still in school, as Tom Riddle did, and with greater success. She leveraged her advantage over greater wizards than herself to obtain more power still. She has shown so many traits that Quirrel would admire, and what adjectives does he use to describe her? Covetous. Black-hearted. If the betrayal were personal, I can make sense of that, otherwise it seems really off.

The Quirrel I know would mostly stick to the facts, perhaps stopping to note the stupidity of Baba Yaga and the cunning of Perenelle.

Maybe his negative view of Perenelle is just because she helped Dumbledore. Maybe I'm reading too much into too little. I'm in love with the theory though; I hope it works out.

Comment author: LauralH 24 February 2015 08:54:25AM 0 points [-]

My head canon is that Riddle seduced his own DADA professor when he was a 6th year, so when he investigated Baba Yaga's death that narrative rang true to him.

Comment author: yaeiou 22 February 2015 06:44:03PM 3 points [-]

In chapter 25 the Weasley twins discuss the map

" How's it doing?" said Fred in a low voice. "Still on the fritz," said George. "Both, or -" "Intermittent one fixed itself again. Other one's same as ever."

I now think this refers to warm!Harry showing up as HJPEV and his dark side as Tom M. Riddle. If so, it's less probable the map is being manipulated.

Comment author: arundelo 22 February 2015 09:28:29PM 9 points [-]

Eliezer says on r/hpmor that the intermittent map "error" is V's intermittent control of Q's body.

Comment author: avichapman 22 February 2015 10:26:17PM 3 points [-]

Harry can go months without using his dark side. Quirrel on the other hand goes into zombie mode every day. Perhaps zombie mode is what's left of the original Quirrel.

Comment author: Transfuturist 23 February 2015 12:02:13AM 3 points [-]

My prediction is that zombie mode is Quirrel checking up on Horcruxes in the same way he views the stars.

Comment author: DavidAgain 23 February 2015 06:57:01PM 0 points [-]

I love this idea in general: but don't see how he could have faked the map, given:

"Did you tamper with thiss map to achieve thiss ressult, or did it appear before you by ssurprisse?"

"Wass ssurprisse," replied Professor Quirrell, with an overtone of hissing laughter. "No trickss."

Comment author: Astazha 23 February 2015 07:44:47PM 0 points [-]

I think this is the most important evidence against it. You could parse Quirrel as saying that Harry being Tom Riddle on the map is a surprise and no a trick, and that he is not commenting on himself being Tom Riddle instead of Baba Yaga.

You could also assume that Quirrel is lying about parseltongue. But yeah, I think that drops the probability a lot.

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