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Jost comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, February 2015, chapter 110 - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: Gondolinian 24 February 2015 08:01PM

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Comment author: Jost 26 February 2015 01:48:11PM 2 points [-]

While the Statute of Secrecy was not mentioned explicitly in book 1, it was mentioned many times that the wizarding world is a secret. Just to name two instances:

  • Chapter 1: McGonagall clearly disapproves of the overblown celebrations of Voldemort’s disappearance (lots of owls, shooting stars), even stating that it would be a real mess if muggles found out about wizards. (No verbatim quote, since I don’t have the english book available right now.)
  • Chapter 5: Hagrid explains to Harry that the main task of the Ministy of Magic is to keep the existence of witches and wizards a secret.

(Families of muggleborn witches and wizards will learn about the wizarding world, of course; but other muggles won’t.)

With the rat, it’s less obvious: I would even argue that the relatively frequent mention of Ron’s rat in book 1 is weak evidence for it not being a normal rat. Plus, there’s a scene during the train ride to Hogwarts, where the rat is smashed into a window pane violently: Would a normal rat survive this without any apparent damage? Possible, but rather unlikely, so that’s additional evidence for the rat being somehow magical. (Wizards being more resistant to force than muggles is mentioned several times in the same book, as is the existence of animagi.)

Regarding Azkaban: No mention in book 1, yes, but it is mentioned in book 2, before it started to play a major role in book 3.

Regarding the last point (the cloak being special): Well, it belonged to Harry’s father but he gave it to Dumbledore for savekeeping. That alone is evidence that this is not just a normal cloak with a simple charm on it, which you could just buy again, if you lose it. Ron even says that such an invisibility cloak is extremely rare and valuable.

Comment author: Jiro 26 February 2015 05:35:37PM 1 point [-]

Smashing a creature against a wall at a specific speed is dependent on the square/cube law, since the kinetic energy is proportional to the creature's mass, but that kinetic energy is being spread out over a proportionately greater cross-sectional area than a larger creature. That's why a cat can survive a fall from pretty much any height.

Comment author: TobyBartels 26 February 2015 10:32:39PM *  0 points [-]

Thanks for keeping me honest, but I don't have the book available to me now either. If you can quote from a different language edition (especially German), that would help.

Without the book to review, what I relied on in my comment[^1] was this: When I first read it, I came away with the impression that there was no secret. I remember reading about Petunia's letter and concluding that the Evanses knew all about Witches and Wizards. (The differing reactions to them are like the attitudes towards Mutants in Marvel comics.)

[^1]: That, and checking the Wikia for first mentions.

Perhaps, primed by this, I missed later references to secrecy. (But that doesn't help with any comments by McGonagall in the prologue.) I do remember being disappointed (but understanding) with the secrecy in book 2.

Regarding Azkaban: No mention in book 1, yes, but it is mentioned in book 2, before it started to play a major role in book 3.

Yes, certainly. In fact, I always thought that Hagrid's trip to Azkaban in book 2 was set up so that we'd know what the title of book 3 meant. (I knew that title before I read book 2.)

Comment author: fezziwig 27 February 2015 01:19:02AM 2 points [-]

Here's the passage from chapter 1:

Verärgert schnaubte Professor McGonagall durch die Nase. »O Ja, alle Welt feiert, sehr schön«, sagte sie ungeduldig. »Man sollte meinen, sie könnten ein bisschen vorsichtiger sein, aber nein - selbst die Muggel haben bemerkt, dass etwas los ist. Sie haben es in ihren Nachrichten gebracht.« Mit einem Kopfrucken deutete sie auf das dunkle Wohnzimmerfenster der Dursleys. »Ich habe es gehört. Ganze Schwärme von Eulen ... Sternschnuppen ... Nun, ganz dumm sind sie auch wieder nicht. Sie mussten einfach irgendetwas bemerken. Sternschnuppen unten in Kent - ich wette, das war Dädalus Diggel. Der war noch nie besonders vernünftig.«

My rough, not-a-native-German-speaker translation:

Professor McGonagall snorted angrily through her nose. "Oh yes, the whole world is celebrating, very nice" she said impatiently. "One might think they could be more careful, but no -- even the Muggles have noticed that something is going on. It was in their newspapers." With a jerk of her head, she indicated Dursley's dark living room window. "I heard about it. Swarms of owls, meteorites...they aren't all idiots. They must have noticed. Shooting stars over Kent -- I bet that was Daedalus Diggle. He never was very sensible."

I take from that that McGonagall doesn't expect the Muggles to know what it means that there are suddenly a bunch of owls everywhere, but that wizards everywhere nevertheless have a duty to make sure that Muggles don't see those sorts of things.

Comment author: Jost 28 February 2015 08:32:29PM 2 points [-]

Thanks! (The translation is fine, btw.)

A few lines later, McGonagall states it even more explicitly:

»Das wäre eine schöne Bescherung, wenn ausgerechnet an dem Tag, da Du-weißt-schon-wer endlich verschwindet, die Muggel alles über uns herausfinden würden.«

(rough back-translation):

“That would be a big mess, if the muggles found out all about us, right on the same day when You-Know-Who finally disappeared.”

Comment author: Jost 28 February 2015 08:37:02PM 1 point [-]

Here’s the quote from chapter 5, too:

»Aber was tut ein Zaubereiministerium?« — »Nun, seine Hauptaufgabe ist, vor den Muggels geheim zu halten, dass es landauf, landab immer noch Hexen und Zauberer gibt.«

rough back-translation:

“But what does a Ministry of Magic do?” — “Well, its main task is to keep the muggles from learning that there are still witches and wizards all over the country.”

Comment author: TobyBartels 01 March 2015 08:47:54AM 0 points [-]

Thanks again, that is all very clear, in either language. I have edited my wrong comment.

Comment author: Velorien 26 February 2015 08:43:42PM 0 points [-]

Regarding the last point (the cloak being special): Well, it belonged to Harry’s father but he gave it to Dumbledore for savekeeping. That alone is evidence that this is not just a normal cloak with a simple charm on it, which you could just buy again, if you lose it. Ron even says that such an invisibility cloak is extremely rare and valuable.

I've always wondered about that. You're in the middle of a deadly war, and consider yourself to be in such danger that you use a rare and powerful charm to make your house not exist for the uninitiated. Why do you give away an invisibility cloak, normal or unique, and why do you give it to someone who explicitly states "I do not need a cloak to become invisible"?

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