You're looking at Less Wrong's discussion board. This includes all posts, including those that haven't been promoted to the front page yet. For more information, see About Less Wrong.

ArisKatsaris comments on March 2015 Media Thread - Less Wrong Discussion

7 Post author: ArisKatsaris 02 March 2015 06:51PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (70)

You are viewing a single comment's thread.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 02 March 2015 06:52:31PM 1 point [-]

Short Online Texts Thread

Comment author: advancedatheist 05 March 2015 05:40:26AM *  8 points [-]

Death Is Optional A Conversation: Yuval Noah Harari, Daniel Kahneman [3.4.15]

http://edge.org/conversation/yuvalnoahharari-daniel_kahneman-death-is-optional

The money quote:

KAHNEMAN: You seem to be describing this as something that is already happening. Are you referring to developments such as the plans to do away with death? That absolutely would not be a mass project. But could you elaborate on that?

.HARARI: Yes, the attitude now towards disease and old age and death is that they are basically technical problems. It is a huge revolution in human thinking. Throughout history, old age and death were always treated as metaphysical problems, as something that the gods decreed, as something fundamental to what defines humans, what defines the human condition and reality.

Even a few years ago, very few doctors or scientists would seriously say that they are trying to overcome old age and death. They would say no, I am trying to overcome this particular disease, whether it's tuberculosis or cancer or Alzheimers. Defeating disease and death, this is nonsense, this is science fiction.

But, the new attitude is to treat old age and death as technical problems, no different in essence than any other disease. It's like cancer, it's like Alzheimers, it's like tuberculosis. Maybe we still don't know all the mechanisms and all the remedies, but in principle, people always die due to technical reasons, not metaphysical reasons. In the middle ages, you had an image of how does a person die? Suddenly, the Angel of Death appears, and touches you on the shoulder and says, "Come. Your time has come." And you say, "No, no, no. Give me some more time." And Death said, "No, you have to come." And that's it, that is how you die.

We don't think like that today. People never die because the Angel of Death comes, they die because their heart stops pumping, or because an artery is clogged, or because cancerous cells are spreading in the liver or somewhere. These are all technical problems, and in essence, they should have some technical solution. And this way of thinking is now becoming very dominant in scientific circles, and also among the ultra-rich who have come to understand that, wait a minute, something is happening here. For the first time in history, if I'm rich enough, maybe I don't have to die.

KAHNEMAN: Death is optional.

HARARI: Death is optional. And if you think about it from the viewpoint of the poor, it looks terrible, because throughout history, death was the great equalizer. The big consolation of the poor throughout history was that okay, these rich people, they have it good, but they're going to die just like me. But think about the world, say, in 50 years, 100 years, where the poor people continue to die, but the rich people, in addition to all the other things they get, also get an exemption from death. That's going to bring a lot of anger.

Comment author: Vaniver 07 March 2015 06:18:48PM 1 point [-]

The conversation is very nice, and Harari's book is fantastic so far (I'm about a fifth of the way through).

Comment author: gwern 03 March 2015 02:22:27AM 7 points [-]

Everything is heritable:

Politics/religion:

Statistics/AI/meta-science:

Psychology/biology:

Technology:

Economics:

Philosophy:

Comment author: advancedatheist 03 March 2015 03:26:54PM 6 points [-]

"Reed Richards Is Useless":

The TV Tropes article points out the absurdity of fictional situations where the characters invent supertechnologies to solve really hard problems in the plot, and then they put these new tools back in the box and you never see them again, even when these tools could solve other problems in the rest of the world.

I've noticed this in the Star Trek franchise, which tempers my nerd grieving over Leonard Nimoy's True Death. The various series have shown transhumanism in general, and radical life extension in particular, in a bad light. And in the original series, the Spock character, seconded by Dr. McCoy, often said that they had to stop the enhanced bad guy, or keep him from living forever, no matter what it takes.

Yet when a main character, other than a Redshirt or a walk-on, needs revival or rejuvenation, why, the ship's doctor can figure out how to do that. Yet these successful techniques mysteriously don't become part of Starfleet medical practice.

Comment author: James_Miller 03 March 2015 05:43:51PM 3 points [-]

Does "Jaynes's Bicameral Mind Theory" have any validity?

Comment author: gwern 03 March 2015 07:12:03PM 4 points [-]

I'm not sure. It has a lot of problems with timing and its global claims, but I could believe something like it is true since that would explain a number of otherwise puzzling things like the apparent extreme literality of religious beliefs in the distant past.

Comment author: DanArmak 09 March 2015 07:01:43PM *  -1 points [-]

the apparent extreme literality of religious beliefs in the distant past.

What evidence do we have about that? First-hand, Homeric or earlier historical evidence is very scant and selective to begin with. We don't have philosophical treaties written by the ancients of what they themselves believed and how literally they took it. The Homeric epics are also describing people who from to the writer were already old, different, and also heroic and not representative of the average man.

Comment author: Lumifer 09 March 2015 07:08:08PM *  1 point [-]

What evidence do we have about that?

The very widespread practice of non-symbolic sacrifices, for example.

Comment author: DanArmak 09 March 2015 07:16:37PM -1 points [-]

What sacrifices count as non-symbolic? Animal sacrifice? Human?

Why is this interpreted as taking (similar) religious beliefs more literally, rather than just having different beliefs?

Is there a quantitative argument to be made that more beliefs were more literal in older times, apart from some examples?

Comment author: Lumifer 09 March 2015 08:17:50PM 1 point [-]

Why is this interpreted as taking (similar) religious beliefs more literally

Because if you don't literally believe that the ritual will win you useful-in-real-life god's favor, each sacrifice reduces your chances to survive and prosper.

Is there a quantitative argument to be made that more beliefs were more literal in older times

If you want to get numbers involved, you first need to specify (with numbers) what does "more literal" mean.

Comment author: DanArmak 09 March 2015 08:25:18PM 0 points [-]

Because if you don't literally believe that the ritual will win you useful-in-real-life god's favor, each sacrifice reduces your chances to survive and prosper.

The same could be said about most religious rituals. There are various theories of signalling honesty, in-group commitment, and riches though costly sacrifices.

Why ascribe the change in sacrifices, for example, to a less literal modern religious belief, rather than to a less central role for modern religion, or sacrifice becoming less important compared to other religious behaviors?

If you want to get numbers involved, you first need to specify (with numbers) what does "more literal" mean.

I don't know - gwern talked about more literal ancient beliefs, I only asked what he meant and how he knew it.

Comment author: Lumifer 09 March 2015 08:31:46PM *  1 point [-]

The same could be said about most religious rituals.

I don't think this is true. Take contemporary mainstream Christianity or Judaism, as the religions most familiar to LW. Do most rituals meaningfully reduce the chances to survive and prosper?

to a less literal modern religious belief, rather than to a less central role for modern religion

"Less literal" belief and "less central" role are correlated :-)

Comment author: g_pepper 09 March 2015 08:33:29PM 2 points [-]

In Orality and Literacy, Walter Ong suggests that what Jaynes attributes to the bicameral mind might be explainable by pre-literacy. He points out that Jaynes places the time for the breakdown of bicamerality around the time that the phonetic alphabet was developed, and that many of the characteristics that Jaynes attributes to bicamerality, e.g.:

lack of introspectivity, of analytical prowess, of concern with the will as such, of a sense of difference between past and future

are characteristics of oral cultures, including contemporary oral cultures.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 04 March 2015 02:21:25AM 1 point [-]

"What is Wrong with Our Thoughts? A Neo-Positivist Credo"

I'm not sure how I feel about this. A lot of it seems on-point but it seems unfair to take what may be complicated or subtle ideas and take paragraphs out of context to show that they are nonsense. If I took a random paragraph from a category-theory paper it might sound just as nonsensical to someone who didn't have the context. Heck, I strongly suspect that if on used a Markov generator with math terms, telling the difference between real and actual material would be difficult if one restricted to small segments. The author is correct that these things are meaningless (by and large) but simply quoting them in this way doesn't really establish it.

Comment author: DanArmak 09 March 2015 06:44:16PM *  -1 points [-]

In your excerpt of "Intelligence: Is it the epidemiologists' elusive 'fundamental cause' of social class inequalities in health?":

As environments get better, genetics explain more of variance; as societies become more meritocratic, they become more unequal.

IOW, as environments get better, they become more uniform (in their effect). Is this saying that environments contribute mostly negative factors, not positive ones, to development, so the best environments affect outcomes least? And if so, how well established is it?

Comment author: Pfft 06 March 2015 12:20:15AM 3 points [-]
Comment author: Stefan_Schubert 02 March 2015 10:25:33PM *  1 point [-]

Google wants to rank websites based on facts not links

The trustworthiness of a web page might help it rise up Google's rankings if the search giant starts to measure quality by facts, not just links.

...

Instead of counting incoming links, [Google's system for measuring the trustworthiness of a page] – which is not yet live – counts the number of incorrect facts within a page. "A source that has few false facts is considered to be trustworthy," says the team (arxiv.org/abs/1502.03519v1). The score they compute for each page is its Knowledge-Based Trust score.

The software works by tapping into the Knowledge Vault, the vast store of facts that Google has pulled off the internet. Facts the web unanimously agrees on are considered a reasonable proxy for truth. Web pages that contain contradictory information are bumped down the rankings.

Comment author: seer 04 March 2015 03:49:56AM *  10 points [-]

I'm guessing that in practice means ranking websites by the popularity of their delusions. The problem is that you can't distinguish facts from fictions without reference to the external world. Furthermore, given how bad wikipedia is at getting its "facts" wright about any vaguely controversial topic, I don't have a lot of confidence in the ability of the internet to settle on the truth.

Edit: speaking of bad sources of "facts", why are you treating New Scientist as a reasonable source?

Comment author: moonshadow 02 March 2015 10:43:33PM *  2 points [-]

"counts the number of incorrect facts within a page."

"Facts the web unanimously agrees on are considered a reasonable proxy for truth."

...wait, what?

...I guess they don't actually mean "unanimously"...

Comment author: Romashka 01 April 2015 05:43:42PM 0 points [-]

J. E. Farnham. Unusual methods of antigen transport. - Grana. - 1986. - 25 (1):89-92. Available online. Not a conprehensive review, just a couple case studies, but (subjectively) beautiful. I wish TV medical shows were based on this kind of stuff.