Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, March 2015, chapter 114 + chapter 115
This is a new thread to discuss Eliezer Yudkowsky’s Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality and anything related to it. This thread is intended for discussing chapter 114, and also, as a special case due to the exceptionally close posting times, chapter 115.
There is a site dedicated to the story at hpmor.com, which is now the place to go to find the authors notes and all sorts of other goodies. AdeleneDawner has kept an archive of Author’s Notes. (This goes up to the notes for chapter 76, and is now not updating. The authors notes from chapter 77 onwards are on hpmor.com.)
You do not need to rot13 anything about HP:MoR or the original Harry Potter series unless you are posting insider information from Eliezer Yudkowsky which is not supposed to be publicly available (which includes public statements by Eliezer that have been retracted).
If there is evidence for X in MOR and/or canon then it’s fine to post about X without rot13, even if you also have heard privately from Eliezer that X is true. But you should not post that “Eliezer said X is true” unless you use rot13.
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Comments (423)
Well, seems like we passed.
Passed in the first 30 seconds and then spent 60 hours worried that it can't be that easy.
I'm so disappointed that the Partial Transfiguration faction turned out to be correct.
As opposed to? (I wasn't keeping close track of the theories as we went forward).
Filibuster.
/abg frevbhf
Those who tried to honestly persuade or verbally trick Voldemort into letting Harry out of the box.
Despite the fact that the rules of the exam specifically prohibited such?
They prohibited saying something too abstract, like "Harry comes up with a way to persuade Voldemort to let him out of the box." They did not prohibit actually figuring out a way to persuade Voldemort. By extension, it would also not be allowed to say "Harry comes up with a way to kill all the Death Eaters with magic." It just had to be specific enough.
He doesn't have to be persuaded to be good, he just has to be persuaded to let Harry out of the box. If he lets Harry out of the box for non-good reasons, that still counts.
Voldemort doesn't want the world destroyed, and he just made Harry into a world-destruction-preventer. Pointing this out — and pointing out that Harry is now a better world-destruction-preventer than Voldemort could become — doesn't involve changing Voldemort's utility function.
(Voldemort can't swear an Unbreakable Vow akin to Harry's because nobody has trust in him that could be sacrificed to power it.)
He didn't make Harry into a world-destruction-preventer. He only made Harry swear not to actively destroy the world. Also, while Merlin might think that with all the effort Voldemort went through to prevent Harry from destroying the world it would be easier to destroy the world with a piece of cheese, I wouldn't find that so comforting.
The rules stated that we couldn't change Voldemort's utility function or turn him good, but his utility function already placed an extremely high value on not having the world destroyed, or losing his immortality. It was quite possible that the solution would have been to convince him that killing Harry would end the world, or that he required Harry in the future in order to save it. The Vow and the parseltongue both were valuable tools in convincing Voldemort of this.
But, what would "letting Harry out of the box." mean? Letting him live, while Voldiemort still takes over the world?
Well, that's not really a worse situation than we've had all through chapters 105-112, and still leaves Harry in a position to take any opportunities to stop Voldemort that appear. Being dead while Voldemort takes over the world, however, would have been quite a lot worse.
Well, it depends how long EY wanted the story to go on for. With another four chapters to wrap everything up, there's not enough time for Voldemort keeping Harry alive while he takes over the world, before the tables turn again, Harry is sprung from a dungeon and saves the day.
I'm surprised the Vow allowed Harry to do anything except talk to Hermione. I did worry that V would think of Harry triggering resonance by touching her. But I also thought the doom-sense would allow V to detect any spell whatsoever that Harry used.
Thank Merlin they didn't listen to us and continued submitting PT solutions. :)
Shotgun plotting: sometimes one hit is all you need.
Same here.
On the other hand, the description in chapter 114 read a lot nicer than all the suggestions that I read in the discussion thread on chapter 113. I guess there’s a difference between the bare-bones suggestion (which is clever, but unsatisfying) and the fully fleshed out story (which I found satisfying enough) and I did not think of this in my earlier comments. My apologies to everyone who got a doubtful response from me!
Me too. I didn't say this a couple of days ago, owing to a lack of confidence that I now see to have been misguided; but while the nanowire PT solution is reasonable and effective and exactly the sort of thing that a sci-fi fan who fancies themselves clever would come up with, it's narratively shallow. And I can't see messily killing thirty-six people as in character for Harry at this moment, however much noise has been made about killing intent. Coming up with creative ways to kill people is one thing; actually going through with it in anger, or even thinking of it when faced with real hostility, is quite another.
(I'm also not totally sure it would work, but that depends on messy materials-science math that I can't be bothered with right now.)
Lest I be accused of being overly negative, though, the Obliviation bit does have a certain elegant symmetry to it.
Convenient, is it not, that Harry had the apparent necessity of killing all the Death Eaters?
Good guys only kill when they have to - but somehow, after the heros have nobly declined to kill the bad guys when they aren't forced to, the cops always manage to get their guns stolen by the criminal, and the good guys get to take them down in self defense anyway.
Yeah, this is one of those solutions that, had I been writing, I would have ruled as not actually workable. Takes too long, Voldemort or a Death Eater sees the threads and breaks them on general principles, nanotubes don't actually have enough tensile strength to reasonably slice up everybody at once consistently, and so forth. I pretty much filed any tactical violence plan under "not practical".
Still, not my story. It's not out of keeping with the rest of the stuff in HPMOR.
High odds that Voldemort escaped. He's been extraordinarily hammy this whole time, and he called all the Death Eaters together, killed or crippled a few, and then explained his evil scheme to the hero before giving him a countdown to his inevitable death, while leaving him armed. It seems very plausible that Tom Riddle was tired of Lord Voldemort, and decided to retire him via dramatic massacre. Why make his new body a snaky freak-show, after all?
On the pedantic nitpicker trivia side of things, you don't have a tank of "oxyacetelene". An oxy-acetylene rig uses a tank of oxygen, and a tank of acetylene. But Harry is probably not a welder, and neither are the Weasely twins, so nobody involved was equipped to notice the problem.
We know for a fact that the Hogwarts wards do not raise an alarm when they should, because they did not detect Draco being under a Blood-Cooling Charm. And we also know that Voldie had a better idea regarding those wards (whether he actually had said wards in place around Draco is debatable, but still, he had the idea).
So I think it's extremely probable that the wards he has to detect his own death are more efficient than the Hogwarts wards, and he's currently riding Bella's body and kicking himself for once more not having just used Avada Kedavra.
The Blood-Cooling Charm was invented for the story specifically to offer a means of murder that didn't set off the wards until the point of death; furthermore, if a professor (Quirrell) cast it, the wards wouldn't trigger anyway.
Well, yes, but it had to be believable that Hermione had cast it, therefore we can assume that it would not have triggered the wards even if Quirrel had not cast it.
Or he and Bella are kicking back on a beach in the Caribbean, drinking alcohol from coconuts and murdering anyone who plays loud music nearby or fails to clean up after their dogs.
Rematch in twenty years.
That's why you have multiple tactical violence plans running at the same time. Mine had neurotoxin and jets of fluorine. Also, Harry could transfigure a flashbang if he gets noticed, and he reinforces his body with carbon nanotubes for in case he gets shot.
The volume of the transfiguration makes it negligibly quick; nanotubes have the highest tensile strength of any material and they were not lone tubes, but braided; I'm fairly sure spotting a braided nanowire in the dark is nearly impossible; and the tension transfiguration is what made the slicing consistent. How exactly is it not practical?
Wow, I was expecting more of a pure Talking His Way Out of the Box solution, instead of a partial transfiguration solution. I'm curious as to whether or not this is the bad ending. I do think Voldemort was a bit stupid to not just kill Harry instantly instead of quizzing him for the Powers He Knows Not. As he said himself, given an eternity of immortality it is likely he would stumble across everything Harry has read, thought, and figured out.
Next chapter should be up any minute now...
Edit: It's up.
^ Funnily enough, I was posting that when I saw your post.
Even if this was the good ending I want to see the bad ending.
Quick note:
The stunning spell is Stupefy.
This is Mad-Eye Moody's homing version of the spell, which has a different incantation, as used in Ch 86.
I thought it was Flitwick's invention?
The spell is Flitwick's. It was used by Harry to stun Mad-Eye Moody.
Different spell. http://hpmor.com/chapter/86
No, this is Flitwick's personal dueling version of Stupefy, which is hard to dodge. Chapter 86.
Thanks to you and everyone else for the quick replies. I really should have re-read the earlier chapters, but I just couldn’t find the time …
When did Harry learn Obliviate?
About ten chapters ago.
Chapter 90:
So there is no defense against Obliviation that Voldemort could have prepared for himself?
I confess I expected paranoid-Moody thinking from Harry, not Far-mode Good thinking. The stakes are so high that anything other than ruthless pragmatism feels insane to me.
I would have thought he would rig up some dead-man's handle which explodes, killing him, if he is ever knocked unconscious. However, he would have to deactivate it when going to sleep, so he would still be vunerable then.
One defense against obliviation would be to keep creating old-school horcruxes at regular intervals. As I understand they contain snapshots of current mind-state so should be unaffected by the main copy getting obliviated later. He might not be quite gone yet.
Like those 30 year old infectious samples of smallpox that keep turning up in NIH/university/etc freezers.
With perfect sight toward the future, perhaps he could have. It's far from convincing that it would have actually helped, without blocking thirty other vulnerabilities.
Obliviation's particularly interesting because it requires no upkeep, but it's far from the only thing that would bypass Horcruxes. Voldemort's just as vulnerable to being repeatedly stunned, to petrification (hence the murder of the basilisk), to transfiguration, to the Imperius, to pretty much any mind-affecting charm. The biggest defense is, well, the same as anyone else's defense to the Killing Curse -- don't be there. Creating a defense specifically against large-scale Obliviation isn't very valuable if the attacker has countless further options to permanently disable anyone so defenseless as to be vulnerable to an Obliviate.
Besides all the foreshadowing about Quirrell's plan being to lose a battle to Harry, isn't it rather convenient that Quirrell just happens to arrange for Harry to learn the spell that Harry uses to defeat him?
So, apparently, the final exam question was "What would Taylor Hebert do?".
Anyone who gives a speech in a school talking about how drugs are fun is a good person to emulate, IMO.
Er, Taylor Hebert from Worm did that? Could you remind me of when that was?
Edit: I mean talked about drugs in a school.
I guess micro-managing the nanotubes isn't so different conceptually from micro-managing bugs carrying silk ropes...
Yeah, but remember that guvf eryvrq ba pbzchgngvbany cbjre pbzvat sebz gur bgure havirefr, naq nf V erpnyy vg jura fur yriryrq hc vg pbafhzrq zber naq zber bs ure oenva gb pbageby ure cbjre.
I wouldn't agree. As some early point she grfgrq ure yvzvgf naq qrpvqrq fur pbhyq qvivqr ure nggragvba orgjrra nal ahzore bs ohtf jvgubhg nal fbeg bs qenjonpx. Fur ybfg ure zvaq jura Cnanprn punatrq ure oenva, fb gung zvtug zrna pbagebyyvat uhznaf jnf gur gvccvat cbvag be vg jnf Cnanprn'f zvfgnxr.
Closest analogy to this that I can remember offhand is when she phgf Rpuvqan va unys hfvat fcvqrefvyx yvarf cyhf Pybpxoybpxre'f grzcbeny svkngvba cbjre.
(spoilers for about halfway through the story)
Oh, I hadn't realised that was what the top comment meant, I just thought he was referring to the killing part.
Damn, that's nice.
Yeah, scenes like that are a good bit of why I like Worm.
Which reminds me, I haven't caught up on Pact for a week or two...
Vzzrqvngryl orsber Orurzbgu nggnpx.
As Weaver, she said something like "Drugs are awesome kids, but it's what comes after that really sucks. Being a supervillain is the same".
Answer A: Carbon nanotube spiders. Ouch.
Answer B: I think all of them were in range. Admin powers time?
A: Taylor would violate her mentor's mind and then make him look like a hero.
I think Harry went with a slightly more risky PT solution than the one I suggested, but it's satisfying and considerably more in character than the PT => time turner escape solution path.
I suppose if I thought more narratively I would have discarded every solution that didn't involve killing his enemies.
Other note. Dumbeldore defeated Voldemort. He placed Minerva to intercept any discoveries of Harry and he made Harry swear not to tell anyone about it. This left Voldemort underprepaired against the weapon that got him in the end. Dumbeldore had a million plots going, and this one worked. Sometiems one is all you need.
I dunno, it seems like you could say Dumbledore's Father and Mother defeated Voldemort, they had a child who was intelligent enough to do those things you said.
More seriously, it was a causal chain. Pretty much everyone involved was crucial.
If I had to give credit to one party in particular it would be the entity or entities which hands out prophecies (I suspect this is Future!Hermione, but we'll see). Voldemort's first defeat was caused by his attempts to fulfill the first in his own way. His second was caused by his attempt to comprehensively thwart the second.
Over/under on there being such entities at all? It's certainly possible that our current understanding of where prophecies come from is incomplete, but the story doesn't seem to have set it up as particularly likely.
Ok, 5 chapters left, I have a , lets call it 70% surety that there is more left than wrapup. 1-3 chapters would be enough for that. I think there will also be a flashforward to whatever the big triumph is. Ending Death, optimizing the world, colonizing space, gaining Root on the Source of Magic, which is stored in the Mirror...
I would say at least 95% certainty that there's more than wrapup left, but it sounds like handing out prophecies is pretty far down on the list of additional things to cover.
I have a sort of uber-theory that's been hanging over me since Harry heard the whisper to meet Hermione Granger on the train, since he felt irrationally certain that Magic was real back in the very first chapters.
This theory is that Future!Harry, or a friend, Future!Hermione is the one who most fits the bill, is God. Or Root on the Source Of Magic. The things that are inexplicable, that certainty, those prophecies, are just his the future self protecting its timeline, as it remembers doing, just like Harry writing "Don't mess with time" on his paper.
If so, they'll sucessfully take control of reality, and discover that their uber-Time
His irrational certainty is explained by the buried memories of Tom Riddle. I imagine Dumbledore steered him towards Hermione.
Chapter 8:
Ah yes, thanks.
I didn't meant to retract the whole thing. Sorry, I'm new to the site and there doesn't appear to be an undo.
I suppose we've already broken one of those commandments, but still, the similarity's amusing.
An epilogue, as in Rowling's books?
Did he actually thwart it or will it happen?
Sure it'll happen. Harry will still do star-lifting.
Also don't forget trapping himself in the mirror rather than Harry.
For me chapter 114 was all I wanted it to be (and possibly more) and chapter 115 was lovely.
I did stop thinking at "so he could transfigure a tip of his wand or maybe his fingernail into a nanotube, but I have no idea what he could do with that, because there is practically no way for him to talk his way out".
Isn't Voldemort's body going to die in its Transfigured form? I assume Harry has a way around that, and he has a reasonably long time frame to implement a solution (at least compared to the 60 seconds he had to work with just now), but that dangling loose end is gnawing at me.
If I understand correctly, you only suffer from transfiguring yourself or parts of yourself after returning to your original form, after the transfiguration stops being sustained and wears off.
Bolding mine.
The Stone solves that. Assuming Harry grabbed it, which seems like a no brainer but I don't think was ever explicitely mentioned that he did. EDIT: Aha, it was edited in just now.
Whoops, that's, right. Thanks.
It's the same as with Hermione's body and the unicorns. They are stones as long as they are Transfigured. When Transfiguration stops, they will soon suffer. That's why Harry kept Hermione's body and now thinks about sustaining the Transfiguration of Voldemort all the time - he wants them to stay Transfigured until their state can be helped. He's kind of frozen now.
Ah, thanks.
I love how close we collectively got. Both that we came up with a solution close to the canon one, and that the canon one was just that bit more polished and elegant thanks to longer prep time.
Well done Eliezer!
I have read lots and lots of 'partial transfiguration' solutions over the past few days. I didn't really like them, they seemed artificial, unrealistic.
But somehow when you told the solution, it didn't feel artificial at all. It felt like it made sense. And I really liked the way Harry stalled for time as well. A few very nice tricks there.
I'm not sure why Harry went through all the trouble of covering up his involvement though. Is there a reason he doesn't want to to take the credit? Is he afraid it will give away the secret of partial transfiguration? Or perhaps he doesn't want Draco to know he, presumably, killed Lucius? I guess we'll find out tomorrow ;)
The way he set it up gives Hermione the same credit for defeating Voldemort that Harry got when he was a baby.
... which conveniently explains why Hermione has super powers now.
So the Sunshine Regiment gets a Super-Hermione after all.
Chaos General gets the Stone, Sunshine General gets superpowers, Dragon General gets No Parents.
Not even something original. General Chaos already got that Achievement before him.
General Chaos would firmly disagree.
Only if Achievements can be revoked. He definitely had that for a short while 11 years earlier.
Nope. He has four parents only two of whom happen to be dead.
If you count Quirrell, he has five parents, two and a half of whom happen to be dead. In fact, the half-death of Quirrell brought his Parental Survival Rate down to 0.5, so of course Draco's had to go down to stay ahead of him.
Quirrel was his fiance, not his parent.
So each of them gets more of something they already had.
Split in some to-be-determined proportion with the deceased Quirrell/Monroe.
Unless Dumbledore comes back. Even if he doesn't, Harry has made little effort to prevent people from suspecting that Quirrell was connected to Voldemort.
Hmm... the people who might suspect this are probably few enough to address individually. Did you have anyone in mind who's likely to go public?
I...hm. Maybe I was letting hindsight bias me here.
Me:
HPMOR:
Dammit.
Incidentally, did none of the death eaters have shields raised, or did the filaments pass through the shields?
Why raise shields, when they are instructed to hex Harry as soon as he raises his wand?
Wordless, quasi-invisible partial transfiguration is a power they know not, so they did not prepare for it.
Raise shields on general principles! There could be Aurors with invisibility cloaks or disillusioned nearby, enemies could suddenly appear by phoenix or some other method, there could be muggleborns with sniper rifles hidden a km away, someone could have travelled back in time to plant a bomb, one of the Death Eaters could be a traitor...
Mad-eye Moody would be disappointed.
EVER VIGILANT!
Presumably shields let air through, so they probably also let nanotubes through.
Well, I don't know how shields work in this setting, but one possibility is that shields do not let anything magical through, which would stop transfigured materials. Shields do stop bullets, so... is it a matter of speed? Do shields stop fast things like bullets, but let slow things such as knives through?
If carbon nanotubes work, then wizards who are not familer with the latest muggle science could still stab each other with very thin (to the point of near invisibility) diamond blades.
The slow nanowire penetrates the shield.
That sounds entirely too much like Dune to me. That's enough reason for me to doubt shields work that way.
Why? I wouldn't be surprised by the inclusion of a homage to Dune.
Which reminds me of something I noticed. Harry should have flooded the area with neurotoxin on general principles, because there might have been invisible Death Eaters.
Harry should be treating himself for transfiguration sickness right now. He breathed some strange smells, and having a death eater poison the air is exactly the sort of contingency Voldemort should have taken.
Also, he doesn't seem to have paid any attention to where the Philosopher's Stone is. Which seems like a huge mistake.
(Edit: Reread, and noticed it says "Harry donned his robes, and placed the Stone of Permanency in an ordinary pocket, he wasn't sure what the Stone might do to his pouch." Retract previous sentence.)
The strange smells are described as “coppery smells”, which probably refers to all the blood.
(Of course, the hemoglobin in blood contains iron, rather than copper, but “irony smells” would not be a great choice of words, I suppose …)
Blood smells like copper to me.
This appears to be because copper and iron both "smell" like blood.
The reason you didn't see the Philosopher's Stone in your first read is that it wasn't there. Eliezer accidentally dropped it in one of his edits, and put it back in after Reddit was all "Where's the Stone?!"
Where is Fawkes right now? Is he part of Dumbledore and is trapped with him?
I suspect he's gone. Remember when Dumbledore told Harry about phoenixes? Those who get a chance, get one chance. From then on it's their own phoenix and it can never be given to someone else. Mybe he died, maybe he left for wherever phoenixes come from.
In canon he just flies away after Dumbledore dies, after doing a sort of lament.
Of course, Dumbledore is explicitly not dead. Though it would probably be easier to bring him back if he were (aside from issues of consent).
I am surprised that using transfiguration and defeating Voldemort played such a large role in the solution.
I thought that it was much more likely that the solution would be to lose in some way, but to lose in a way that maintained hope / constrained Voldemort's actions to not be evil, and then to continue to work towards a better situation once out of immediate danger.
I also thought that the Vow that Harry had made would be the biggest key to the solution. After all, transfiguring carbon nanotubes and antimatter were things that Harry could have achieved earlier to defeat Voldemort, prior to the situation having gotten truly terrible. (He couldve done what he did to stun and obliviate Voldemort this during the entire forbidden corridor storyline). Therefore, it made sense to me that the new addition of the Vow would be critical to the solution, not just something throw in to stall for time.
Anyways, I am glad that the community collectively came up with all of the elements of the final solution as it was written.
Why doesn't Harry resurrect the people he just killed, or at least freeze them? They don't have to die.
He's out of mana. Also, staying at the scene would be an enormous risk. Also, being death eaters, they would on average kill more than one person each.
The last reason isn't good enough to stop him from freezing them until after he can protect their potential victims. (Not that it matters, since the first reason holds.)
Well, as a point of practicality, he's used up all his magic for at least the next hour and only has so many items in his first-aid kit.
He would need to wipe their memories first, one would assume; right now, the only witnesses to the scene remember nothing, and Harry (as an Occlumens) can pretend to not have knowledge of it.
I'm wondering whether Harry believes himself to be a threat to the world at this point in time. This would be a plausible reason for him to be setting Hermione up to take the credit for killing Voldiemort.
Other than modesty, letting Hermione take credit is a very elegant solution to a slew of problems: he can say that House Potter owes her no enmity after her defeating of their common foe, and this gets rid of any lingering doubts about her attacking Malfoy (probably...).
Quirrel-supporters: don't worry, I'm sure Bellatrix will show up to save the day.
Interesting. I wonder ifHarry just killed Sirius. I suppose that's not exactly the most important thing from a shut-up-and-multiply perspective, but it might also explain an additional reason why Harry avoids looking (and finding information about) something he may change later with the use of a time turner.
Also, no reference to a certain pack of cards yet.
Pack of cards?
Chapter 63:
As I recall, that was planted by Dumbledore and led to a location in London.
Dumbledore gave Harry a pack of cards that had portkey functionality, under the name Santa Claus and claiming that they were a portkey to Salem, but instead heading to a location somewhere in London. Harry gave them back for further investigation, thinking that they might be a trap, Dumbledore took them back but didn't activate the portkey.
It's possible that this was just a short reference, meant to establish Dumbledore's steps of trust in parallel to the gift of the Cloak of Invisibility, and that Harry did not retrieve the portkey and Dumbledore did not place it upon Harry's person...
But activation trigger was to rip the King of Hearts -- a king card known for its face character stabbing itself in the back of the head -- in half.
By the way, who gave the Cloak to Harry?
It's not been explicitly confirmed, but given the similarity in forms to later notes signed Santa (and confirmed to be Dumbledore), the note's writer claiming the Cloak was freely given by Harry's father, and the explicit warning against letting Dumbledore see the Cloak, it's very likely that Dumbledore gave Harry the Cloak as in canon.
Wasn’t that resolved in chapter 79?
Yeah it was resolved when Dumbledore revealed that he was the one who gave it to Harry to Snape/McGonnagle. Snape reported to Potter that he used it and it went to an empty house in London.
Mr. Counsel is probably Lucius Malfoy, too. I imagine Draco's not going to be too happy about that.
What about Jugson?
I am glad to see that Stuporfy did the trick, and I did not see the Obliviate coming. My private (i.e. I would have posted it if I had more time/attention for HPMOR over the last two days and had vetted it) way to solve the Voldemort Problem would have been to time-turn him the violent way by shattering Harry's Time-Turner on him; but looking into it now it turns out I misremembered the scene of canon I was thinking of. (The shelf containing the Time-Turners gets bumped, and they all fall off, turning them- causing them to go back in time and fall again; I thought I remembered someone getting trapped in it. Perhaps that was an embellishment in the movie?)
I am not sure Harry has thought through what will happen to Voldemort. Will he be imprisoned? Killed? It seems like getting the person most likely to imprison him someplace other than Azkaban to be first on the scene is a better idea than just causing an explosion to attract interest.
But now Hermione gets to be The Girl Who Lived Again.
If I understand him correctly, H intends to keep V transformed until H is powerful enough to transform V’s body back to a healthy state (and make that permanent with the Stone).
Imprisonment is a possibility after that, but depending on your views on the relation between identity and memories, this might not be appropriate after the obliviation.
Thanks, I totally misread that section. I somehow missed the symmetry with Hermione's body.
It was in the book, as I recall, but it didn't really make sense; Eliezer would never allow it.
So, it makes sense that if the thing falls, it could conceivably turn over and that activates the charm. But this seems really unsafe in general (I did a backflip while wearing a Time-Turner; oops!), and there's still the limit on how many times you can do it in a day, and you could just catch them, and so on.
So why is Harry going to such great pains to erase evidence of his involvement?
Hmm, if it was known that Dumbledore had died and that Quirrell had been Voldemort all year, bad things could happen to Hogwarts. This route makes it most like that it will be McGonagall as headmistress.
They're going to have to reveal Dumbledore's death anyway, and Quirrell =/= Voldemort would be the default assumption for any uninitiated observer anyway, seeing as their dead bodies were within metres of each other.
To me, the scene looked as though Quirrell had tried to fight Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Perhaps the story is that Quirrell killed the Death Eaters, Voldy killed quirrell, tried to sacrifice Hermione in a dark ritual, but Hermione's purity killed him.
Or cut that last step, and make it that Harry snapped his fingers.
Imagine the the myths that will come up around this. "Man, if you try to use magic to kill a kid magic will fuck you up, I don't care who you are."
Dumbledore is not dead, just stuck in time. Maybe.
Can't Harry get the time turner messaging squad to give Dumbledore advance notice of everything that will occur, so that he can set the mirror trap to be not so much of a trap?
Dumbledore did seem to be very insistent on how Quirrell had fooled him and he had no idea whatsoever that Quirrell was Voldemort.
Because it's hard to be seen as on the light side when you decapitate 38 adult wizards in an instant? Fame is harmful, not helpful, to Harry's goals. Better to make it look like Voldemort managed to cause a magical backfire that killed all his minions in a failed ritual involving Hermione. To go back to the Azkaban chapters, the perfect crime is the one that is declared a tragic accident and closed.
Is that true? Harry wishes to reform or replace the government of Magical Britain, and being the hero who defeated Voldemort twice would make that a lot easier (as Voldemort himself acknowledged). Turning Hermione into the Girl-Who-Lived dilutes that effect, and also brings all his fame-related problems down upon her.
Harry at this point trusts Hermione's judgement far more than his own. Putting Hermione in the position of power as the girl-who-lives-again pushes her into the forefront, letting her be the head that Magical Brittain needs, leaving him to go about his business determined to not destroy the world, as his unbreakable vow requires.
With all due respect to Miss Granger, she would make a terrible politician. Her strengths are an amazing memory, academic talent, and an unbreakable moral compass. However, she has no skill at manipulation, poor social skills in general, and no special ambition or vision. The Malfoys of this world would run rings around her.
By contrast, Harry is an unstoppable force for change in whatever direction he seeks, and his only real weakness is being too immature to properly weigh up the potential consequences of his actions. Which, admittedly, is a humongous flaw, but with recent events he finally knows that.
I wonder if it would be possible to erase most of Voldemort, but keep the Quirrel mask personality through some combination of Memory Charms, Obliviation and Legilimency. He was a pretty cool teacher, after all, when not murdering the students and whatnot. Using the Stone, it would be even possible to give him a permanently-transfugured Quirrel body, so that the students don't get scared of Voldie teaching them...
R.I.P Quirrelmort, we shall miss you...
So did Harry just outsmart himself? Are we really expecting the clever Lord Voldemort to not have something in place to recover from obliviation? Harry seemed to appropriately judge the importance of this spell about half a second after he first heard of it, but Tom Riddle doesn't realise at all?
I'm sure he realizes it, but Harry literally obliviated everything in his memory, which would presumably include knowledge of any anti-obliviation counter measures (like the signals that were mentioned early on).
Unless there's some spell or artifact we haven't heard of before now that blocks/reverses Obliviation, I am going with it worked. And from a meta perspective, we know the story is winding down, so Voldie coming back with his full memory and then having another showdown with a different solution seems highly unlikely.
What about a Voldemort who comes back and just Avada Kedavras Harry on sight? This would finally do justice to Voldie's superior power and intelligence, and take only one paragraph.
I was indeed thinking of spells or artefacts we don't know about (or perhaps clever combinations/side-effects of magic we do know about). If Horcruxes are indeed images of the caster impressed upon the world then perhaps it might be possible to construct them in such a way that they become active unless repressed by the original? That would solve Voldies stuck-in-a-plaque-for-decades problem as well.
Would you consider the story ending with Voldemort, up to that point presumed dealt with, suddenly showed up and killed Harry with no chance for recourse?
It would be a quick resolution, but despite what Harry thinks as he matures, he is in fact living inside a narrative. I don't believe that the story would end on such a down note. I could well be wrong, but that is what I choose to believe.
I agree with this interpretation. But given that, I'm not sure why Harry thinks he didn't kill Voldemort.
I feel stupid. Not for the nanowire, as I was among many who suggested something similar.
I feel stupid for not suggesting the "make Voldemort insane" strategy. I thought it will not work because a wizard's mental state is not necessarily connected to his brain. For example, an animagus transformed into a cat can still retain her human mental state with a cat's brain.
But being driven insane because of a curse might be completely different, and could have an effect not only on the physical brain, but on whatever shape or form the mental state of a wizard is implemented in.
I feel stupid for rejecting transfiguring Voldemort because it didn't occur to me not to use the Stone.
So I decided not too look at comments during the hunt. I then got a "solution", but decided to wait a bit for something better to post it. And then I did not have time to post it. Well, silly me...
Anyway, because I have not seen this discussed (but maybe it was and I missed it?), here's my take on defending yourself from most ways to kill you. Note that this would not have worked for Harry for various reasons (as I said, my solution was unsatisfying), but I still think it could be debated.
Fact 1: Killing Curses cannot be blocked by magic or material shields Fact 2: Killing Curses can be dodged Fact 3: Dark Wizards don't go around murdering people from far away by just casting Killing Curses in their general direction.
From this I deduce that it is very plausible that any legal target from a Killing Curse absorbs its entirety. Therefore, since it can kill anything with a brain, pulling a Skitter and coating your skin in a layer of insects should do the trick. Harry could transfigure himself a platinum armor (against bullets and similar things) and an armor of insects.
The main problem I see with this idea in the context of Chapter 113 is that any DE can just Finite Incantem Harry's Magic. So it's a strategy better suited to epic-level wizards who have stronger magic than first-years at Hogwarts. Also, I thought it was too ambitious a PT fro 60 seconds, but then Harry did manage to stall successfully.
We were told to keep Harry from dying immediately. The actual solution had Harry winning. I guess the moral of the story is that if you figure out how to accomplish what you wanted, don't stop thinking. Figure out how to accomplish more.
Harry said that he had to kill the Death Eaters. I disagree. There are ways he could have incapacitated them. Probably. My plans killed them all too, because their lives weren't worth the increased chance of failure.
I think Harry should have tortured Voldemort to insanity and then obliviated him. That way if the obliviation doesn't stick, Voldemort would still be tortured to insanity.
This sounds less safe because you'd need to wake him up to torture him into insanity. If you wanted the multiple layers you could torture the obliviated version into insanity, but I think I prefer the transfiguration. I'd even consider making it permanent with the Stone of Transfiguration, but this would result in a lot of lost knowledge and it's also possible that the horcrux network would consider it a death.
ETA: I rather liked the wand-in-a-dementor-pit idea.
Unfortunately Harry hasn't learned the Cruciatus Curse.
This is the real magic, when you see something impossible happening. I had no idea how you can realistically beat immortal and powerful dark wizard.One "Obliviate" and your perspective shifts and that's it. It now looks pretty simple despite being impossible 5 minutes ago.
Wow! Making Hermione Another-One-Who-Survived was a clever idea. This solves some problems, but now Harry will have to keep a very grim secret. With everything happened, the next honest talk with her seems now even more impossible than surviving V.
Hypothesis: this has already happened. Voldemort has an implanted memory of exactly how he failed to kill baby Harry.
Didn't he want to create a horcrux out of Harry, not to kill him? Of course, he could have implanted himself the false memories he shares in ch. 108:
Or he might have lain, which means that either he did want to kill Harry, or the purpose of all that October 31st was something completely different.
Or did I misunderstand something?
Could you elaborate on that? (Who implanted that memory? Why? What observations would that hypothesis explain, that are not explained well (or at all) by our current assumptions?)
Nit: Harry correctly guessing before this chapter that the resonance affects mainly the caster in proportion to the caster's strength seems overly specific. His experience did indicate that the resonance was a greater threat to V than to himself, so his actions were justified, but his prediction should have been more disjunctive: Either the resonance mainly affects the caster in proportion to the caster's strength, or it affects both parties in proportion to their strength, or it mainly affects V regardless of who casts what due to some asymmetry, or it affects the caster in proportion to the spell's magical strength, or something else.
Agreed. This result wasn't my first guess about the nature of it. I'd assumed that it probably affected V most strongly regardless.
There's a parallel between Dumbledore and Reddit's approach to the Ch. 113 solution: put a plethora of plots into motion, you only need one to work out.
Reading the chapters again, I can't help feeling that, while Harry's sudden victory is satisfying from a "we, the fandom, have passed the test" perspective, without that context it is really unnatural. Harry abruptly goes from being utterly emotionally overwhelmed and reeling to the flawless, cold-blooded execution of a perfect plan that fully draws on a number of disparate ideas and abilities.
Edit: Also, I'm far from the first person to say this, but Harry's sudden spike in competence is preceded by Voldemort becoming a hammier, less intelligent villain. His precautions against Harry attempting to escape, and his plans for how to kill him reliably, are reasonably intelligent, but there are a dozen simpler and/or more effective countermeasures he could have taken, starting with something as obvious as getting rid of Harry's wand.
If there were more chapters left to go, I'd put money on "Voldemort let all this happen as part of a greater gambit", but as things stand I'm feeling pessimistic.
While I wouldn't go quite that far, I do agree with you on one thing: leaving Harry his wand was really stupid. Why did he let Harry keep his wand?
Let me have a go at coming up with a dozen:
That took me about 15-20 minutes.
Take at least one.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In most stories that involve a final conflict between a hero and a villain, none of those options apply. The villain is stronger, and is defeated through some combination of circumstances and advantages that allow the hero to bypass that strength or temporarily exceed it (typically through significant effort and/or sacrifice, often prior to the confrontation).
Right, that's what happened in this story: Harry temporarily got the upper hand on Voldemort. Voldemort allowed Harry to get the upper hand. When Voldemort possessed Quirrell's body, he didn't just take over the world over the course of a week. When Voldemort realized that Harry was an existential threat, he didn't relieve Harry of his limbs, mind, and freedom to move outside a little box. Voldemort allowed Harry to be a threat because otherwise there wouldn't have been a story.
That... sounds dangerously close to "did it because of Plot", which isn't supposed to happen in a rational story.
Am I wrong in thinking that Voldemort had given his gun to one of the Death Eaters, and so Harry should not be seeing it fall alongside Voldemort's wand when he cuts his hands off?
From 113:
So it was planned, but never executed. All other references to the gun have it in Voldemort's hand.
So... what we should do now is to work out all the things Quirrell should have before this. He couldn't predict partial transfiguration, true. But he knew that Harry had a power he knew not, and had a long time to plan for contingencies.
Personally, I think he should have had the death eaters disillusioned, surround Harry but from a distance, cast holograms to confuse him and then use ventriliquo charms. At the very least disillusionment should be as much of a general tactic as a massed finite and the death eaters could have been hidden.
The massively more obvious solution is just to kill Harry quickly, and moreover to not EVER offer the protagonist 60 seconds to try to save himself, no matter how interesting that sounds.
Any other general/specific tactics that LV could and should have thought of in advance? He had an entire year to plan this, and has Harry level intelligence. He should have predicted and outplayed.
Something that could indicate trying to dodge, or consciousness leaving the body. It's not unreasonable for Voldie to think "I've lost here, no matter what I do this body will be unusable in the near future, in case he has a plan to incapacitate me without triggering my Horcrux wards I'd better go someplace else".
All in all I'd assign a high subjective probability to Voldie's spirit being intact. Voldemort is a thorough planner, so total Oblivation is something he must have foreseen. And even if he did not, he is also known for not taking risks even when other people would be certain their precautions were enough. For example, he went through the trouble of resurrecting Hermione AND having Harry swear an Unbreakable Vow before attempting to kill him. Therefore, seeing something in his plan going terribly awry, there is a very high probability Voldemort would just retreat to a safe haven like the Horcrux Network.
It is implied that while Voldemort can stop possessing a victim at will, he cannot stop inhabiting his own body at will.
[EDIT]Though Harry internally states the opposite:
This is the part I was thinking of:
We don’t know enough details about how the Horcrux Network and the Special Connection between V and H work, but …
… this is highly unusual for an obliviation, so I think it is very likely that V has not left his body.
That's the resonance effect from casting a spell on another Tom Riddle, I think. (Was it also there for the transfiguration? Why not?)
That attack wasn't actually magic. Not at the point where he attacked Voldemort. He was literally pulling on a physical thread.
I mean when he transfigured Voldemort into something to take with him. (That did happen, right? Or did I misinterpret that?)
But it was transfigured by Harry's magic. There does not appear to have been a resonance from it, though, which surprised me.
He was not pulling, he was transfiguring it shorter. And IIRC transfigured materials cause the resonance regardless.
While it would be amusing if the resonance created fire for Dark Lord Tom and mini-Patroni for Harry, I don't think magic is quite that symbolic.
Maybe some of the Death Eaters will leave ghosts behind, who will tell everyone what really happened.
"I wonder how difficult it would be to just make a list of all the top blood purists and kill them.
They'd tried exactly that during the French Revolution, more or less - make a list of all the enemies of Progress and remove everything above the neck..." -Harry's internal monologue, HPMOR Chapter 7
"Amusing, but that was not your first fleeting thought before you substituted something safer, less damaging. No, what you remembered was how you considered lining up all the blood purists and guillotining them. And now you are telling yourself you were not serious, but you were. If you could do it this very moment and no one would ever know, you would." -The Sorting Hat, HPMOR Chapter 10
Well...well I guess it wasn't technically a guillotine. And Harry didn't make a list himself. But Harry did do it, and set it up so no one would ever know.
This is bloody brilliant foreshadowing!
Do The Impossible, indeed. Looping a thin thread over someone's head several meters away is tricky business. The slightest bit of wind throws it off. And this must be done without moving the wand or betraying the operation through one's facial expression. I can't imagine it being done without the utmost concentration, allowing of course for effort to be expended talking to Voldemort and maintaining mental blocks against any Legilimens among the Death Eaters (recall that in Half-Blood Prince Snape was able to detect spells forming in Harry's mind). This is all done perfectly the first time around. Thirty-six times, plus Voldemort's wrists.
I suppose one can honestly say A Wizard Did It...
So... Quirrel told McGonagal that he was David Munroe, and it was implied with Madam Bones. It looks like David Munroe was killed in a battle with Voldemort, ending that noble and most ancient line, which has now been avenged by Hermione destroying Voldemort with her magic Girl-Who-Lived powers.
Are we going to get the Noble House of Granger? Does the House of Potter lose its noble status since David Munroe was apparently not previously dead to be avenged by Harry? Will they both be noble because the Wizengamot doesn't know what to do with the ambiguity?
Where was it stated that the Potter family's noble status is a result of baby-Harry killing Voldemort?
Chapter 86
Voldemort still killed David Monroe, he just did it earlier than everyone thought he did. Chapter 108:
Your other questions remain, though. Harry no longer killed Voldemort for good, and Hermione (apparently) has. This should be interesting. I predict this becomes an issue, confidence 70%; and, conditional on that, that Draco sides with Hermione again at a crucial moment, confidence 85%.
I am somewhat surprised that no wards triggered on any of Harrys actions. OK, we learned little about what wards can and can't do but given that ant-apparition, anti-phoenix and whatnot are established by Death Eaters by default and Quirrell used - what 50? - protective measures in that secret hotel room when he left off for Azkaban. I'd guess that some protective measures should have triggered.