You're looking at Less Wrong's discussion board. This includes all posts, including those that haven't been promoted to the front page yet. For more information, see About Less Wrong.

Wei_Dai comments on Open thread, Mar. 23 - Mar. 31, 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion

6 Post author: MrMind 23 March 2015 08:38AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (181)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: gwern 24 March 2015 09:25:49PM 7 points [-]

One thing I've been wondering about deep neural networks: to what extent are neural networks novel and non-obvious? To what extent has evolution invented and thus taught us something very important to know for AI? (I realize this counterfactual is hard to evaluate.)

That is, imagine a world like ours but in which for some reason, no one had ever been sufficiently interested in neurons & the brain as to make the basic findings about neural network architecture and its power like Pitts & McCulloch. Would anyone reinvent them or any isomorphic algorithm or discover superior statistical/machine-learning methods?

For example, Ilya comments elsewhere that he doesn't think much of neural networks inasmuch as they're relatively simple, 'just' a bunch of logistic regressions wired together in layers and adjusted to reduce error. True enough - for all the subleties, even a big ImageNet-winning neural network is not that complex to implement; you don't have to be a genius to create some neural nets.

Yet, offhand, I'm having a hard time thinking of any non-neural network algorithms which operate like a neural network in putting together a lot of little things in layers and achieving high performance. That's not like any of your usual regressions or tests, multi-level models aren't very close, random forests and bagging and factor analysis may be universal or consistent but are 'flat'...

Nor do I see many instances of people proposing new methods which turn out to just be a convolutional network with nodes and hidden layers renamed. (A contrast here would be Turing's halting theorem: it seems like you can't throw a stick among language or system papers without hitting a system complicated enough to be Turing-complete and hence indecidable, and like there were a small cottage industry post-Turing of showing that yet another system could be turned into a Turing machine or a result could be interpreted as proving something well-known about Turing machines.) There don't seem to be 'multiple inventions' here, as if the paradigm were non-obvious and, without the biological inspiration.

So if humanity had had no biological neural networks to steal the general idea and as proof of feasibility, would machine learning & AI be far behind where they are now?

Comment author: Wei_Dai 29 June 2015 11:14:20AM *  2 points [-]

This 2007 talk by Yann LeCun, Who is Afraid of Non-Convex Loss Functions? seems very relevant to your question. I'm far from an ML expert, but here's my understanding from that talk and various other sources. Basically there is no theoretical reason to think that deep neural nets can be trained for any interesting AI task, because they are not convex so there's no guarantee that when you try to optimize the weights you won't get stuck in local minima or flat spots. People tried to use DNNs anyway and suffered from those problems in practice as well, so the field almost gave it up entirely and limited itself to convex methods (such as SVM and logistic regression) which don't have these optimization problems but do have other limitations. It eventually turned out that if you apply various tricks, good enough local optima can be found for DNNs for certain types of AI problems. (Far from "you don't have to be a genius to create some neural nets", those tricks weren't easy to find otherwise it wouldn't have taken so long!)

Without biological neural networks as inspiration and proof of feasibility, I guess people probably still would have had the idea to put things in layers and try to reduce error, but would have given up more completely when they hit the optimization problems, and nobody would have found those tricks until much later when they exhausted other approaches and came back to deep nets.