Hi, I'm new to LessWrong. I stumbled onto this site a month ago, and ever since, I've been devouring Rationality: AI to Zombies faster than I used to go through my favorite fantasy novels. I've spent some time on website too, and I'm pretty intimidated about posting, since you guys all seem so smart and knowledgeable, but here goes... This is probably the first intellectual idea I've had in my life, so if you want to tear it to shreds, you are more than welcome to, but please be gentle with my feelings. :)
Edit: Thanks to many helpful comments, I've cleaned up the original post quite a bit and changed the title to reflect this. 

Ends-in-themselves

As humans, we seem to share the same terminal values, or terminal virtues. We want to do things that make ourselves happy, and we want to do things that make others happy. We want to 'become happy' and 'become good.' 

Because various determinants--including, for instance, personal fulfillment--can affect an individual's happiness, there is significant overlap between these ultimate motivators. Doing good for others usually brings us happiness. For example, donating to charity makes people feel warm and fuzzy. Some might recognize this overlap and conclude that all humans are entirely selfish, that even those who appear altruistic are subconsciously acting purely out of self-interest. Yet many of us choose to donate to charities that we believe do the most good per dollar, rather than handing out money through personal-happiness-optimizing random acts of kindness. Seemingly rational human beings sometimes make conscious decisions to inefficiently maximize their personal happiness for the sake of others. Consider Eliezer's example in Terminal Values and Instrumental Values of a mother who sacrifices her life for her son. 

Why would people do stuff that they know won't efficiently increase their happiness? Before I de-converted from Christianity and started to learn what evolution and natural selection actually were, before I realized that altruistic tendencies are partially genetic, it used to utterly mystify me that atheists would sometimes act so virtuously. I did believe that God gave them a conscience, but I kinda thought that surely someone rational enough to become an atheist would be rational enough to realize that his conscience didn't always lead him to his optimal mind-state, and work to overcome it. Personally, I used to joke with my friends that Christianity was the only thing stopping me from pursuing my true dream job of becoming a thief (strategy + challenge + adrenaline + variety = what more could I ask for?) Then, when I de-converted, it hit me: Hey, you know, Ellen, you really *could* become a thief now! What fun you could have!flinched from the thought. Why didn't I want to overcome my conscience, become a thief, and live a fun-filled life? Well, this isn't as baffling to me now, simply because I've changed where I draw the boundary. I've come to classify goodness as an end-in-itself, just like I'd always done with happiness. 

Becoming good

I first read about virtue ethics in On Terminal Goals and Virtue Ethics. As I read, I couldn't help but want to be a virtue ethicist and a consequentialist. Most virtues just seemed like instrumental values.

The post's author mentioned Divergent protagonist Tris as an example of virtue ethics:

Bravery was a virtue that she thought she ought to have. If the graph of her motivations even went any deeper, the only node beyond ‘become brave’ was ‘become good.’

I suspect that goodness is, perhaps subconsciously, a terminal virtue for the vast majority of virtue ethicists. I appreciate Oscar Wilde's writing in De Profundis:

Now I find hidden somewhere away in my nature something that tells me that nothing in the whole world is meaningless, and suffering least of all.. 

It is the last thing left in me, and the best: the ultimate discovery at which I have arrived, the starting-point for a fresh development. It has come to me right out of myself, so I know that it has come at the proper time. It could not have come before, nor later. Had anyone told me of it, I would have rejected it. Had it been brought to me, I would have refused it. As I found it, I want to keep it. I must do so...

Of all things it is the strangest.

Wilde's thoughts on humility translate quite nicely to an innate desire for goodness.

When presented with a conflict between an elected virtue, such as loyalty, or truth, and the underlying desire to be good, most virtue ethicists would likely abandon the elected virtue. With truth, consider the classic example of lying to Nazis to save Jews. Generally speaking, it is wrong to conceal the truth, but in special cases, most people would agree that lying is actually less wrong than truth-telling. I'm not certain, but my hunch is that most professing virtue ethicists would find that in extreme thought experiments, their terminal virtue of goodness would eventually trump their other virtues, too. 

Becoming happy

However, there's one exception. One desire can sometimes trump even the desire for goodness, and that's the desire for personal happiness. 

We usually want what makes us happy. I want what makes me happy. Spending time with family makes me happy. Playing board games makes me happy. Going hiking makes me happy. Winning races makes me happy. Being open-minded makes me happy. Hearing praise makes me happy. Learning new things makes me happy. Thinking strategically makes me happy. Playing touch football with friends makes me happy. Sharing ideas makes me happy. Independence makes me happy. Adventure makes me happy. Even divulging personal information makes me happy.

Fun, accomplishment, positive self-image, sense of security, and others' approval: all of these are examples of happiness contributors, or things that lead me to my own, personal optimal mind-state. Every time I engage in one of the happiness increasers above, I'm fulfilling an instrumental value. I'm doing the same thing when I reject activities I dislike or work to reverse personality traits that I think decrease my overall happiness.

Tris didn’t join the Dauntless cast because she thought they were doing the most good in society, or because she thought her comparative advantage to do good lay there–she chose it because they were brave, and she wasn’t, yet, and she wanted to be.

Tris was, in other words, pursuing happiness by trying to change an aspect of her personality she disliked.

Guessing at subconscious motivation

By now, you might be wondering, "But what about the virtue ethicist who is religious? Wouldn't she be ultimately motivated by something other than happiness and goodness?" 

Well, in the case of Christianity, most people probably just want to 'become Christ-like' which, for them, overlaps quite conveniently with personal satisfaction and helping others. Happiness and goodness might be intuitively driving them to choose this instrumental goal, and for them, conflict between the two never seems to arise. 

Let's consider 'become obedient to God's will' from a modern-day Christian perspective. 1 Timothy 2:4 says, "[God our Savior] wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." Mark 12:31 says, "Love your neighbor as yourself." Well, I love myself enough that I want to do everything in my power to avoid eternal punishment; therefore, I should love my neighbor enough to do everything in my power to stop him from going to hell, too.

So anytime a Christian does anything but pray for others, do faith-strengthening activities, spread the gospel, or earn money to donate to missionaries, he is anticipating as if God/hell doesn't exist. As a Christian, I totally realized this, and often tried to convince myself and others that we were acting wrongly by not being more devout. I couldn't shake the notion that spending time having fun instead of praying or sharing the gospel was somehow wrong because it went against God's will of wanting all men being saved, and I believed God's will, by definition, was right. (Oops.) But I still acted in accordance with my personal happiness on many occasions. I said God's will was the only end-in-itself, but I didn't act like it. I didn't feel like it. The innate desire to pursue personal happiness is an extremely strong motivating force, so strong that Christians really don't like to label it as sin. Imagine how many deconversions we would see if it were suddenly sinful to play football, watch movies with your family, or splurge on tasty restaurant meals. Yet the Bible often mentions giving up material wealth entirely, and in Luke 9:23 Jesus says, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me."

Let's further consider those who believe God's will is good, by definition. Such Christians tend to believe "God wants what's best for us, even when we don't understand it." Unless they have exceptionally strong tendencies to analyze opportunity costs, their understanding of God's will and their intuitive idea of what's best for humanity rarely conflict. But let's imagine it does. Let's say someone strongly believes in God, and is led to believe that God wants him to sacrifice his child. This action would certainly go against his terminal value of goodness and may cause cognitive dissonance. But he could still do it, subconsciously satisfying his (latent) terminal value of personal happiness. What on earth does personal happiness have to do with sacrificing a child? Well, the believer takes  comfort in his belief in God and his hope of heaven (the child gets a shortcut there). He takes comfort in his religious community. To not sacrifice the child would be to deny God and lose that immense source of comfort. 

These thoughts obviously don't happen on a conscious level, but maybe people have personal-happiness-optimizing intuitions. Of course, I have near-zero scientific knowledge, no clue what really goes on in the subconscious, and I'm just guessing at all this.

Individual variance

Again, happiness has a huge overlap with goodness. Goodness often, but not always, leads to personal happiness. A lot of seemingly random stuff leads to personal happiness, actually. Whatever that stuff is, it largely accounts for the individual variance in which virtues are pursued. It's probably closely tied to the four Kiersey Temperaments of security-seeking, sensation-seeking, knowledge-seeking, and identity-seeking types. (Unsurprisingly, most people here at LW reported knowledge-seeking personality types.) I'm a sensation-seeker. An identity-seeker could find his identity in the religious community and in being a 'child of God'. A security-seeker could find security in his belief in heaven. An identity-seeking rationalist might be the type most likely to aspire to 'become completely truthful' even if she somehow knew with complete certainty that telling the truth, in a certain situation, would lead to a bad outcome for humanity.

Perhaps the general tendency among professing virtue ethicists is to pursue happiness and goodness relatively intuitively, while professing consequentialists pursue the same values more analytically.

Also worth noting is the individual variance in someone's "preference ratio" of happiness relative to goodness. Among professing consequentialists, we might find sociopaths and extreme altruists at opposite ends of a happiness-goodness continuum, with most of us falling somewhere in between. To position virtue ethicists on such a continuum would be significantly more difficult, requiring further speculation about subconscious motivation.

Real-life convergence of moral views

I immediately identified with consequentialism when I first read about it. Then I read about virtue ethics, and I immediately identified with that, too. I naturally analyze my actions with my goals in mind. But I also often find myself idolizing a certain trait in others, such as environmental consciousness, and then pursuing that trait on my own. For example:

I've had friends who care a lot about the environment. I think it's cool that they do. So even before hearing about virtue ethics, I wanted to 'become someone who cares about the environment'. Subconsciously, I must have suspected that this would help me achieve my terminal goals of happiness and goodness.

If caring about the environment is my instrumental goal, I can feel good about myself when I instinctively pick up trash, conserve energy, use a reusable water bottle; i.e. do things environmentally conscious people do. It's quick, it's efficient, and having labeled 'caring about the environment' as a personal virtue, I'm spared from analyzing every last decision. Being environmentally conscious is a valuable habit.

Yet I can still do opportunity cost analyses with my chosen virtue. For example, I could stop showering to help conserve California's water. Or, I could apparently have the same effect by eating six fewer hamburgers in a year. More goodness would result if I stopped eating meat and limited my showering, but doing so would interfere with my personal happiness. I naturally seek to balance my terminal goals of goodness and happiness. Personally, I prefer showering to eating hamburgers, so I cut significantly back on my meat consumption without worrying too much about my showering habits. This practical convergence of virtue ethics and consequentialism satisfies my desires for happiness and goodness harmoniously.


To summarize:

Personal happiness refers to an individual's optimal mind-state. Pleasure, pain, and personal satisfaction are examples of happiness level determinants. Goodness refers to promoting happiness in others.

Terminal values are ends-in-themselves. The only true terminal values, or virtues, seem to be happiness and goodness. Think of them as psychological motivators, consciously or subconsciously driving us to make the decisions we do. (Physical motivators, like addiction or inertia, can also affect decisions.)

Preferences are what we tend to choose. These can be based on psychological or physical motivators.

Instrumental values are the sub-goals or sub-virtues that we (consciously or subconsciously) believe will best fulfill our terminal values of happiness and goodness. We seem to choose them arbitrarily.

Of course, we're not always aware of what actually leads to optimal mind-states in ourselves and others. Yet as we rationally pursue our goals, we may sometimes intuit like virtue ethicists and other times analyze like consequentialists. Both moral views are useful.

Practical value

So does this idea have any potential practical value? 

It took some friendly prodding, but I was finally brought to realize that my purpose in writing this article was not to argue the existence of goodness or the theoretical equality of consequentialism and virtue ethics or anything at all. The real point I'm making here is that however we categorize personal happiness, goodness belongs in the same category, because in practice, all other goals seem to stem from one or both of these concepts. Clarity of expression is an instrumental value, so I'm just saying that perhaps we should consider redrawing our boundaries a bit:

Figuring where to cut reality in order to carve along the joints—this is the problem worthy of a rationalist.  It is what people should be trying to do, when they set out in search of the floating essence of a word.

P.S. If anyone is interested in reading a really, really long conversation I had with adamzerner, you can trace the development of this idea. Language issues were overcome, biases were admitted, new facts were learned, minds were changed, and discussion bounced from ambition, to serial killers, to arrogance, to religion, to the subconscious, to agenthood, to skepticism about the happiness set-point theory, all interconnected somehow. In short, it was the first time I've had a conversation with a fellow "rationalist" and it was one of the coolest experiences I've ever had.

New Comment
70 comments, sorted by Click to highlight new comments since:

I'm pretty intimidated about posting, since you guys all seem so smart and knowledgeable, but here goes.

So I take the quality of this post along with this statement to indicate LW is not being friendly enough. I think we're currently losing more than we're gaining by being discouraging to newbies and lurkers. One suggestion I have that is probably unrealistic would be integrating the LW chatroom into the main site somehow so that people could get to it via a link from the front page. Chat feels like much less of a commitment than posting to even an open thread.

OP: good post. Don't worry about not being "up to snuff."

2[anonymous]
Thanks :) I'll just say the intimidation factor for me stems more from my own utter lack of scientific knowledge than any unfriendliness on your guys' part. A visible chat room would definitely be a nice feature though!
0Viliam
I do not use it, but I found these links in wiki: * Less Wrong IRC Chatroom * Official Rules of the Unofficial Lesswrong IRC
2RomeoStevens
Yes, but that is many clicks and button presses away. Making it a one click process would funnel lots of lurkers there where they could ask questions or talk about posts in a less permanent way.
1Adam Zerner
ABSOLUTELY! In general, I think the bar for posts in Discussion is way too high. After all, if you want to have a discussion, the only thing you really need is a question. Edit: Obviously there's value in starting off a discussion with something more than just a question, and that all else equal, you'd prefer to start the discussion with more rather than less. But I still get the impression that the general atmosphere is to hold Discussion posts to way too high a standard. Agreed. I hope to do some work on the site in the next year or so (I'm not a good enough developer yet).

Welcome to LessWrong, and thanks for posting!

Regarding the evolution of emotions, consider this:

Imagine a group of life forms of the same species who compete for resources. Lets say that either they are fairly even in power level, and thus it is superior for them to cooperate with each other and divide resources fairly to avoid wasting energy fighting. Alternately, some (alphas) are superior in power level, but the game theoretically optimal outcome is for the more dominant to take a larger share of resources, but still allow the others to have some. (T... (read more)

3[anonymous]
Thanks for the welcome, and thanks for sharing your thoughts! I love game theory, and all your connections look good to me. This is something I still don't understand very well about evolution. They need it, and therefore they develop it? Is there anything that leads them to develop it, or is this related to the "evolving to extinction" chapter? I should go back and re-read the chapters on evolution. Is this something you can somewhat-briefly summarize, or would understanding require a lot more reading?
8Viliam
They need it, therefore if it randomly happens, they will keep the outcome. Imagine a game where you are given random cards, and you choose which of them to keep and which of them to discard. If you need e.g. cards with high numbers, you can "develop" a high-numbered hand by keeping cards with high numbers and discarding cards with low numbers. Yet you have no control over which cards you receive. For example, if you have bad luck and always get only low numbers, you cannot "develop" a high-numbered hand. But only a few high numbers are enough to complete your goal. Analogically, species receive random mutations. If the mutation makes the survival and reproduction of the animal more likely, the species will keep this gene. If the mutation makes the survival and reproduction of the animal less likely, the species will discard this gene. -- This is a huge simplification, of course. Also the whole process is probabilistic; you may receive a very lucky mutation and yet die for some completely unrelated reason, which means your species cannot keep that gene. Also, which genes provide advantage, that depends on the environment, and the environment is changing. Etc. But the idea at the core is that evolution = random mutation + natural selection. Random mutation gives you new cards; natural selection decides which cards to keep and which ones to discard. Without mutations, there would be no new cards in the game; each species would evolve to some final form and remain such forever. Without natural selection, all changes would be random, and since most mutations are harmful, the species would go extinct (although this is a contradiction in terms, because if you can die as a result of your genes, then you already have some form of natural selection: selecting for survival of those who do not have the lethal genes). Sometimes there are many possible solution for one problem. For example, if you need to pick fruit that is very high on the trees (or more precisely speaking
1Ander
Yes this. Of course it is not a given that something that would be a useful adaptation will develop randomly. Great analogies with the hand of cards.
0[anonymous]
Ditto to Ander's comment - very nice summary and analogy, many thanks :)
3Gram_Stone
I'm not a biologist or anything, but I think I'm competent enough to answer this question. You'll often see biology framed in teleological terms. That is, you'll often see it framed in terms that seem to indicate that natural selection is purposeful, like a person or God (agent) would be. I'll try to reframe this explanation in non-teleological terms. Animal husbandry/selective breeding/artificial selection is a good way to get an idea of how traits become more frequent in populations, and it just seems less mysterious because it happens on shorter timescales and humans set the selection criteria. Imagine you have some wolves. You want to breed them such that eventually you'll have a generation of wolves that will do your bidding. Some of the wolves are nicer than others, and, rightly, wolves like these are the ones that you believe will be fit to do your bidding. You notice that nice wolves are more likely to have nice parents, and that nice wolves are more likely to give birth to nice pups. So, you prevent the mean wolves from reproducing by some means, and allow the nicest wolves to mate. You re-apply your selection criterion of Niceness to the next generation, allowing only the nicest wolves to mate. Before long, the only wolves you have around are nice wolves that you have since decided to call dogs. In artificial selection, the selection criterion is Whatever Humans Want. In natural selection, the selection criterion is reproductive fitness; the environment 'decides' (see how easy it is to fall into teleology?) what reproduces. Non-teleologically, organisms with more adaptive traits are more likely to reproduce than organisms with less adaptive traits, and therefore the frequency of those traits in the population increases with time. Rather than thinking of natural selection as 'a thing that magically develops stuff,' imagine it as a process that selects the most adaptive traits among all possible traits. So, we're not so much making traits out of thin air
3[anonymous]
No, you explained that really well!! Everything is a lot less fuzzy now! Thank you :) I think with science, the first time I read it, it makes sense to me, but I had such a bad habit of filing scientific facts into the "things you learn in school but don't really need to remember for real life" category of my brain that now, even when I actually care about learning new information, it still takes multiple explanations, and sometimes one really good one like yours, before it really start to sink in for me.
[-][anonymous]40

I think you are over-optimistic about human goodness. If you had to deconvert at all it is possible you are from a culture where Christian morals still go strong amongst atheists. (Comparison: I do not remember any family members with a personal belief, I do remember some great-grandmas who went to church because it was a social expectation, but I think they never really felt entitled to form a personal belief or deny it, it was more obedience in observation than faith.) These kinds of habits don't die too quickly, in fact they can take centuries - ther... (read more)

0Viliam
I agree that "goodness" is luxury; only people who do not have serious problems (at least for the given moment) can afford it; or those who have cultivated it in the past and now they keep it by the power of habit. On the other hand, I believe that it is universal in the sense that if a culture can afford it, sooner or later some forms of "goodness" will appear in that culture. There will be a lot of intertia, so if a culture gains a lot of resources today, they will not change their behavior immediately. The culture may even have some destructive mechanisms that will cause it to waste the resources before the "goodness" has a chance to develop. Sorry for not being more specific here, but I have a feeling that we are talking about something that exists only in a few lucky places, but keeps reappearing in different places at different times. It is not universal as in "everyone has it", but as in "everyone has a potential to have it under the right circumstances".
0[anonymous]
Not just surplus, there are empirical records of poor people in rich soceties donating more to charity than rich people in rich soceties. I think there is also something going on with the whole of society as such, not just people's personal feelings of surplus or not.
0[anonymous]
First, I should say that I didn't mean to assert that some goodness could be found in everyone. I personally guess it is, but that wasn't what this post was about. I just meant that happiness and goodness are the only two things that seem like ultimate motivators for people. Not that everyone has both, just that all actions are motivated by one and/or the other. Anyway... I guess we don't really know :( I like the idea of it being more genetic than cultural, but you could just as well be right. I did the cursory google search of "is altruism genetic" and found some cool studies, but studies only tell us that genes contribute somewhat not how much they contribute relative to culture. But culture is human-driven too. Even something like vegetarianism's growing popularity, which is a bit more global and has nothing to do with religion, could show that some people are generally becoming less self-centered? Or what about the decrease in imperialism? The budding effective altruism movement? Anyway, I get what you're saying. I think I came up with this idea to convince myself that humanity would get along just fine without religion. So I'm biased in favor of the idea that goodness is largely genetic, and still on the upswing, since that's a nice and comforting thought, but I guess that since don't know the exact ratio of how much genetics contributes relative to culture, we're safer off assuming that it's mostly cultural. If we decide we still like this product of our culture and don't want to lose it, then we should definitely put conscious effort into keeping some idea of "goodness" alive in society.
0Lumifer
Um... survival? sex? power? curiosity? You can, of course, make "happiness" a sufficiently large blanket to cover everything, but then you lose any meaning in the term.
0[anonymous]
(shrug) Yeah, I consider it a huge blanket. I didn't really mean to share some grand revelation or anything, just the realization that all our thoughtful decisions (as opposed to those influenced by addiction, inertia, etc) seem to be made either to lead us, as individuals, to our optimal mind-states, and/or to benefit others.
0Lumifer
If it's so huge, why did you choose to separate out "goodness"? It fits under the blanket quite well -- people who help others get happiness (or get into the desired mind-state) from helping others.
1[anonymous]
Good question!! Introspectively asking myself the same thing is what led to my confusion, which led me to analyze everything and come up with what I wrote about. So personally, when I donate to effective charities like AMF, I do get some benefits. I like my self-image more, I feel a little bit warm and fuzzy, I feel less guilty about having been born into such a good life. Helping others in this way does improve my mind-state. Yet, if all I wanted to do were increase my own happiness, there would be more efficient ways to go about it. Let's say I donate 15% of my income to AMF. The opportunity cost of that donation could be a month long vacation to visit my friends in Guatemala, a trip home to see my family in Wisconsin, ski trips, or random acts of kindness like leaving huge restaurant tips. If my only goal is achieving my optimal mind-state, after much introspection, I'm 99% sure I would be better off donating a bit less to charity (but still enough to maintain my self-image) and visiting my family and friends a bit more. So why do I still want to donate the amount I do? This really confused me. Was my donation irrational? You might say it was motivated by guilt, that I would feel guilty for not donating. And I'd say yeah, to some extent, but not quite enough to justify what I'm giving up. This is my personal example, the one that sparked this post, but it's definitely not the best example. The best example of goodness is sacrificial death. I suppose you could still claim that even someone who knowingly dies to rescue a stranger would have felt soo guilty if he hadn't done it, that he was acting to stop his mind-state from dipping into the negatives, or something. Or he imagined great honor after his death, and that short-lived happy expectation motivated the action. Honestly, you could be right, and again, my doubt isn't based on anything more than guessing at subconscious motivation, but I'm just guessing that goodness is the motivation here, not happiness. Ju
0Lumifer
That is true for all non-optimal ways of increasing your own happiness. So, suicide bombers? X-/ May I suggest internalized social pressure as a motivation? :-)
0[anonymous]
Yes, but practically every other time I recognize myself non-optimally increasing my own happiness (usually due to inertia), I want to fix it and achieve optimal happiness. But not this time. I'm guessing here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that they truly believe they're doing God's will. They truly believe God's will is, by definition, good. So maybe they're acting out of their own twisted idea of goodness, or perhaps more likely, they're just acting in a way that they believe will increase their happiness once they receive eternal rewards. You certainly may... it's like the tragedy of group selectionism...When we observe species who cannibalize their young, it's a bit harder to imagine an isolated human mother ever sacrificing herself to save her child. But could such a "altruism emotion" gene have evolved? I think the evolution behind it makes sense, and that there are some studies that show this, but I'm far from being an expert on the topic. I think that "social pressure" motivations are closely related to "guilt" motivations and still fall under the huge-blanket category of happiness. I think they can be a huge factor behind seemingly altruistic decisions, but I don't think they tell the whole story...
-3VoiceOfRa
How about reading some history, or better yet things written by cultures other then your own. If you read really old cultures, e.g., Homer, you can get glimpses of the observation that it never seems to have occurred to these cultures that there is anything wrong with killing people who aren't members of one's tribe. Now look at the way the rioters in Baltimore are behaving right now.
0[anonymous]
Again, the point of this post was not to argue that goodness exists. I understand that people are mostly selfish, and that even the ones who seem altruistic could be mostly motivated by warm fuzzies and avoiding feelings of guilt, or fitting in with their cultures. So I'm not saying we can find goodness in every action, or even most actions... but I am saying we can find it as the ultimate motivator in at least a few actions. We live in the most peaceful time in history. Is this current peace and decrease in imperialism part of a positive trend, or just a high point on a crazy zigzag line? Have there been other long periods of (relative) peacefulness back in history? You disliked my comment. Why? Are you saying goodness is not genetic at all? Or that history makes it soo obvious that culture is the only significant factor, that I should shrug off any studies that show goodness seems partially genetic and not allow them increase my optimism in any way?
1Lumifer
Yes.
0[anonymous]
Oh, yeah.... thanks for answering (embarrassed blush for not using Google and not remembering about that even though I'm pretty sure I've heard it before)
-2VoiceOfRa
Or more reacently, the period between the Congress of Vienna and WWI.
1Lumifer
Um. You are forgetting the various wars of the Ottoman Empire. And the Russian Empire. And the French revolution with associated aftershocks. And the Germans (e.g. the Austro-Prussian war). And once we get out of Europe, there were wars aplenty in the Western hemisphere, extremely bloody rebellions in China (the Taiping Rebellion) and India (the Indian Rebellion of 1857), etc. etc.
-4VoiceOfRa
I'm assuming those minor wars don't count here for the same reason els isn't counting things like the Korean and Vietnam wars, the various wars in the Middle East, or the civil wars associated with the War on Drugs. Edit: Oh yes, also the various de/post-colonial wars, the wars in the Congo, etc.
0Lumifer
I think you're confusing "it was a peaceful and VERY successful century for Great Britain" with "it was the time of peace in the world".
0VoiceOfRa
It was about as peaceful as the current time.
-2VoiceOfRa
What do you mean by goodness? If by goodness you mean what els (or more generarly your culture considers "good" then yes, goodness has a large cultural component. On the other hand, as in this thread, you mean a willingness to sacrifice for what one believes to be a good cause, then yes it probably has a large generic component. Except, "what one believes to be a good cause" has a large cultural component. For example, as Lumifer mensioned suicide bombers blowing themselves up to spread the true faith. Or the Nazis, who as the tide of war turned against them, diverted resources from the war effort to making sure future generations of Europeans will have fewer Jews corrupting their culture, even if they're rulled by those ungrateful Allies.
2[anonymous]
In the modern world, goodness is generally understood as wanting others to be happy and not suffer. Sounds like the Golden Rule, as most people want to be happy and not suffer themselves, and goodness is understood as wishing the same for others. To be fair, it does look like a little bit of a narrow view, I remember Roger Scruton remarking that if your philosophy is equally suitable for humans and swine then you may need to rethink something (i.e. happy as a pig in the mud cannot really be the only terminal value, wishing it for everybody cannot be the only terminal goodness), but this is the social consensus today.
0[anonymous]
Ah, then you might like "Град обреченный" (The doomed city) by A&B Strugatsky:)
0[anonymous]
This is true. Sometimes people think they know what's best for society and are wrong. Anyway, I don't know how much of our culture's seeming to care about others is cultural vs. genetic. I think it's unlikely to be 100% vs. 0%, but I'm not making any further claims than that. If you say that goodness doesn't exist at all, ever, that no one really naturally cares about anyone other than themselves, I'll disagree, but I have no evidence to back this up; as far as I know, both of us would just be guessing at what subconsciously motivates people...
-2VoiceOfRa
Depends on which 'others'.
2[anonymous]
I think that's probably a good point. You would say that genetics has more to do with caring for those close to us, and culture has more to do with caring for strangers we'll never meet, right? Anyway, I got back from listening to this podcast and would recommend it if you're interested! I liked it and learned some things. Here's the blurb, as you can see it's relevant to this whole discussion: "Compassion is a universal virtue, but is it innate or taught? Have we lost touch with it? Can we be better at it? In this hour, TED speakers explore compassion: its roots, its meaning and its future."

Good post. I think you are thinking about morality correctly, and I share your feelings about the sentiments behind virtue ethics and consequentialism not being particularly dissimilar or totally incompatible.

Um... so my high school Calculus teacher, who is lots, lots smarter than I am, thinks "emotion" is evidence of intelligent design. I thought this was just a "god of the gaps" thing, but maybe it is really the simplest explanation. I think most people here have ruled out an omnipotent, omni-benevolent God... but maybe life on eart

... (read more)
4[anonymous]
Thanks, and thanks for your thoughtful reply! I had to look up the definition of parsimony, but I think that idea helps a lot. My story was just a story, really. Not an argument. I probably did de-convert for emotional reasons, but also because I recognized that I only believed what I believed because I was raised believing it. Obviously, there was a chance that I just happened to be born into the one true religion, but I figured if that were the case, I would find my way back there as I examined the evidence. I wanted to start from a clean slate. Yeah, you're right. Although I didn't even consider "moral niceness" or lack of since it really wouldn't affect our lives in any way. But okay, I'm already convinced it's not the "simplest" answer... I will edit that part out :)
4Ishaan
I love how people on lesswrong change minds so readily So, this feeling of dis-satisfaction you are reporting is commonly termed "Existential Angst". "Existentialism" is the idea that morality has no basis in anything deeper than the individual. It's common after deconversions and is related to the whole "God is Dead" Nietzsche thing, and the question of how we can start rebuilding a framework for morality beyond mere hedonism from that point. The reason I thought explicitly introducing parsimony into your thinking toolkit would help is that maybe once one internalizes that consciousness is complicated and not something which just happens, perhaps the "alien god" will get a little less alien. At some point, I think you'll stop feeling like your preferences and values were arbitrarily chosen by cold random unfeeling processes, and start feeling like the physics driving the "alien god" is really just a natural part of you, and that your values and preferences are a really integral part of you and you start treating those things with an almost religious reverence. I think once you really understand all that goes into making you conscious and where "good' comes from, the whole thing stops being cold and unfeeling and starts being warm and satisfying. I was never a Christian or theist in the first place so I didn't go through precisely the same experience (I was loosely Hindu and I suspect transitioning from pantheism to reductionism is much easier, especially given the focus on destroying the illusion of a coherent "I" in vedic religions)...But, sometime around entering high school my views on topics such as stem cells and abortion and animal treatment began to shift due to acquiring a reductionist view of consciousness. So I think understanding, at least in principle, how moral stuff and consciousness can be implemented by ordinary non-conscious matter and getting comfy with the idea that souls are constructed out of solid brain tissue that we can see and touch help
5[anonymous]
Hahahaha I completely interpreted this as sarcasm at first. I'm obviously still getting used to lesswrongers myself :) Yeah. Do you know what got me started on this whole idea? I linked to it at the bottom of the article, but I was asking if there was any good reason to pursue ambition over total hedonism, and I now think that the answer is "goodness is an end-in-itself too" and I'm pretty okay with it. Wow, I really like how you put that. Other people have tried to share a similar concept with me, but it always seemed cheesy and superficial. It never really started to sink in until now. I think it was the words "natural" and "warm" that did it for me. So thanks!
4Ishaan
The way I look at it is, I'm good because that is what I prefer. There are many possible futures. I prefer some of those futures more than the others. I try my best to choose my favorite future with my actions. "Goodness" is part of what I prefer to happen, which is why I choose it. (And a version of me which didn't prefer goodness wouldn't be me, preferring goodness is a pretty big part of what goes into the definition of "me".) Very glad I could be helpful! I find Neil D.Tyson / Sagan-esque talk kinda cheesy too. But I remember when I was a kid dabbling in philosophy, thinking hard about free will and monitoring my own thoughts for any trace of randomness, and suddenly it just became really clear that my thoughts and feelings followed predictable processes and there wasn't any sharp boundary between the laws governing objects and the laws governing minds. It was kind of a magical moment, I felt pretty connected to the universe and all that jazz. It is cheesy, but it's pretty hard to talk about these sorts of spiritual-ish experiences without sounding cheesy.

I don't have anything to add to the discussion, but in the interest of being phatic I just want to say that this is a great introductory post -- welcome to LessWrong!

0[anonymous]
Thanks! Phatic is a great term, definitely adopting for use in my own vocabulary! I had seen a comment on the open thread asking about in which part of the body people felt their "sense of self" and if it changes, and I wanted to contribute "that's so bizarre to me, I've never felt a sense of self anywhere, but I find this discussion interesting" but realized it added nothing to their discussion and stopped myself. I might be more phatic in the future though, now that I have a friendly disclaimer to use. :)
1jam_brand
I commented in that thread myself and what you've said seems a worthy addition even without a disclaimer; it adds at least as much to the discussion as this post which nobody has downvoted. (of course, it might seem easy for me to say your comment should be posted if I'm not the once risking the karma punishment for doing so, so note that I'd be willing to copy/paste what you've said and take any punishment/reward for myself if you'd like)
0[anonymous]
Ok, if you say so, I'll go chip in my two cents!
[-][anonymous]20

We want to do things that make ourselves happy, and we want to do things that make others happy.

One way to test whether we all want to do things that make others happy is to read a book or two. Try "Human Smoke" by Nicholson Baker, for instance. Another test would be to spend part of a day in prison or a mental hospital. But the most direct means I found to disabuse myself of the idea we all want to do things that make others happy is to meet more people. Having met more people, I am now more appreciative of the not-all people who not-all o... (read more)

Part 2

One ultimate psychological motivation can trump even goodness, and that's the second terminal virtue: personal happiness.

If goodness was a terminal virtue, then how could it ever be trumped by anything? Actually, I think there's an answer to this. To me, being a terminal virtue seems to mean that you value it regardless of whether it leads to anything else. Contrast this with "I value X only to the extent that it leads to Y". But if you have more than one terminal virtue, it seems to follow that you'd have to choose which one you value... (read more)

1[anonymous]
Nah, either one can trump the other, depending on the situation and the individual. Thanks :) But I bring that up right in the next paragraph! It fits with both, but do you really think it belongs with 'become Christ-like' over 'become obedient to God's will' ? Or are you saying that I should double mention it it twice? That's the point, haha, they don't know for sure because only God knows God's will! As for animal rights, I know only a few Christians who are into it, out of all the many Christians I know, only two are vegetarian... most believe God gave man dominion over animals, which means we take care of them and eat them. Some will also misinterpret Peter's vision in Acts 10 and cite this as God giving us permission to eat meat, but most will cite Genesis and man's "dominion" (sigh) If you really think I'm making that argument, or any argument (see my comment to your Part 1), then I really need to practice my writing. :( (nods) Good, because this was more of my goal, to get people to rethink where to draw the boundary. Oops, let me rephrase that to be more clear. "The only true terminal values are happiness and goodness." Thanks. I do think it's like some sort of inherent property of the universe or something. You're right!!!! That was silly of me. Ending on "emotion" just reminded me of that conversation and I wanted to get some feedback, but I shouldn't have been so lazy and should have asked about it on an open thread or something. :-)
0Adam Zerner
To me, saying that it's an inherent property of the universe sounds like "this is the way it is for everyone, and this is the way it always will be". I don't think either of those things are true. You've previously said that you think it's true for the overwhelming majority of people, not everyone. I'm not sure what you think about "this is the way it always will be". A simple argument against that is that you could just rewire someone's brain to produce different drives. Of course, this is just what I interpret "the only true terminal values are happiness and goodness" and "I do think it's like some sort of inherent property of the universe or something" to imply. I sense that it's a common interpretation, but I'm not sure. Anyway: 1) I think semantics aside, we agree that a good deal of people posses these as their terminal virtues. (I think it's less common than you do, but I do agree that it's true for a good majority of people) 2) Semantics may be annoying, but they're important for communicating, and communicating is important. It's my impression that your writing could be a lot better if the semantics were improved.
0[anonymous]
My position has become a bit more extreme then. I am guessing it's true for everyone, and I do think the universe itself is behind it. I suppose it could change, sure. Whether it's an "inherent property of the universe" might come back to that word "inherent" and whether or not you think "inherent" includes "eternal." I don't think we disagree about anything real here. Only a majority? So do you think: (1) Some people have no desire for personal happiness, (2) Some people have no desire for goodness, or (3) There is some other psychologically motivated end-in-itself that can't be traced back to one of the two?

Part 1

This is probably the first "philosophical" thought I've had in my life

Haha, good one. Humor is often a good way to open :)

happy

I assume you mean "desirability of mind-state". People associate the word "happy" with a lot of different things, so I think it's worth giving some sort of operational definition (could probably be informal though).

So I suspect a certain commonality among human beings in that we all actually share the same terminal values, or terminal virtues.

I think a quick primer on consequentialism... (read more)

1[anonymous]
Thanks for the tips! Adding some a brief primer on virtue ethics and consequentialism is a good idea, and I think you're right that this whole idea is more relevant to the social sciences than philosophy. Did you actually want answers to those questions, or were they just to help show me the kind of questions that belong in each category? Great distinction at any rate, I'll go change that word "philosophical" to "intellectual" now. I think you noticed, or at least, you've now led me to notice, that I'm not really interested in the "in theory" at all, or in struggling over definitions. I'm just trying to show that what is actually happening "in practice" and suggest that whether someone calls himself a virtue ethicist or a consequentialist doesn't change the fact that he is psychologically motivated (for lack of a better term) to pursue happiness and goodness. I think what I'm trying to do with this article is help figure out where we should draw a boundary. I think this might have been my whole point, that our real ends aren't as arbitrary as we think. It seems to me that in practice there are really just two ends that humans pursue. Nothing else seems like an end-in-itself. Killing people can be an instrumental goal that someone consciously or subconsciously thinks will make him happy, that will lead him to his optimal mind-state. He might be wrong about this; it might not actually lead him to his optimal mind-state. Or maybe it does. Either way, it doesn't matter in the context of this discussion whether we classify killing as "wrong" or not, it matters what we do about it. In the real world, we're motivated, by our own desires for personal happiness and goodness, to lock up killers. But I'm not claiming it's rational... I'm not claiming anything, and I'm not arguing anything or proving any point. I'm just describing how I observe that people who seem very rational can still maximize their personal happiness inefficiently. The resulting idea is that goodness se
0Adam Zerner
The latter. I didn't know you weren't interested in it at all, but I knew you were more interested in the practice part. Come to think of it, I suspect that you're exaggerating in saying that you don't really care about it at all. Well said. In your article, I think that some of the language implies otherwise, but I don't like talking about semantics either and I think the important point is that this is clear now. The other important point is that I've screwed up and need to be better. I have an instinct to interpret things literally. I also try hard to look for what people probably meant given more contextual-type clues, but I've partially failed in this instance, and I think that all the information was there for me to succeed. I think that we agree, but let me just make sure: ends are arbitrary in the sense that you could pick whatever ends you want, and you can't say that they're inherently good/bad. But they aren't arbitrary in the sense that what actually drives us isn't arbitrary at all. Agree? Let me try to rephrase this to see if I understood and agree: "People who seem very rational seem to act in ways that don't maximize their personal happiness. One possibility is that they are trying to optimize for personal happiness but failing. I think it's more likely that they are optimizing for goodness in addition to happiness. Furthermore, this seems to be true for a lot of people."
0[anonymous]
Hah, and I thought I was literal. I guess I'm interested in knowing the "in theory" just so I can make connections (like adherents to different moral systems have different tendencies in terms of making decisions consciously vs. subconsciously) to the "in practice" But at the same time, you've really helped me figure out my point, which wouldn't have happened if you said "nice article, I get what you're saying here." In regular life conversations, it's better to just think about what someone meant and reply to that, but for an article like this, it was totally worthwhile for you to reply to what I actually said and share what you thought it implied. The bracketed part I don't care about. Discussing "inherently good/bad" seems like a philosophical debate that hinges on our ideas of "inherent." The rest, I agree :) We seem to choose which actions to take arbitrarily, and through those actions we seemingly arbitrarily position ourselves somewhere on the happiness-goodness continuum. Great wording! May I plagiarize?

Why did the alien-god give us emotions?

The alien-god does not act rationally.... The origin of emotion ultimately seems like the result of random chance.

Emotions are likely as useless as other things the alien-god gave us, things like eyes and livers and kidneys and sex-drives and fight-or-flight responses.

Emotions appear to drive social cooperation at least between mammals. Human partnership with dogs is mediated and cemented by emotions, I think only someone who has spent no time with dogs could disagree with this observation. Emotions and th... (read more)

[-]oge00

Hey els, thanks for posting your thoughts. It'd be nice if you put a summary in the first paragraph seeing as the article is so long.

Welcome to LessWrong! I wouldn't comment if I didn't like your post and think it was worth responding to, so please don't interpret my disagreement as negative feedback. I appreciate your post, and it got me thinking. That said. I disagree with you.

The real point I'm making here is that however we categorize personal happiness, goodness belongs in the same category, because in practice, all other goals seem to stem from one or both of these concepts.

Your claims are probably much closer to true for some people than they are for me, but they are far fro... (read more)

0[anonymous]
Hi, thanks for your reply! I'm not yet sure that we actually disagree. What do you think of with the word happiness? If you're thinking of happiness simply as "pleasure" then I would agree, that pleasure and goodness alone are not the only psychological motivators. I used happiness to describe someone's preferred mind-state, the mind-state in which someone would feel the most content. So it's different for everyone. Some people are happy just to follow their impulses and live in the moment, but other personality types are happier when they have a strong sense of identity, which seems to be what you're describing. You also say you want to matter. I think the belief that we will be remembered after our deaths is a one that would lead to happiness, too, so we want to act in such a way that would encourage this belief in ourselves. I identify with a lot of what you're saying. I'm less identity-driven than most people, but there are still certain things about myself (being frugal, for example) that, even if I knew changing them would bring me pleasure, I wouldn't want to simply because I consider them part of my identity. Although it doesn't make complete sense to me, I think that this small sense of identity contributes to my happy mind-state. So I'm guessing that your idea of happiness was just a bit more narrow than mine was? But we probably still agree?
1afeller08
I'm just reading this for random reasons either for the first time or for the first time that I have a response. I think what I see differently from you is not happiness but motivation. And that at the time I wrote this, I believe your process of making decisions was more future-oriented than mine was. (I believe I have converged towards you in how my motivation works in the ten years since I wrote this.) When I wrote the above, my past was clinging to me in many ways that were adverse to happiness. (Trauma) What I wasn't quite saying in my previous comment, is that I was at the time (like many other people I know) holding onto trauma in stupid ways because I needed to hold onto it to make it feel like that part of my life had a reason to have happened that wasn't purely just worthless-badness happens. Holding onto trauma was a core part of my identity and was a core part of many other people's identities. On the silliest extreme of people holding onto trauma are the people who keep playing games that they expect to keep losing with the hope of eventually winning in a way that makes all their past losses up to them. (Before 2016, being a Cubs fan was a particularly lighthearted example of people behaving this way; whereas, gambling addictions are a much less lighthearted one. Many gambling addicts are deeply aware that their hope to one day recover all they've lost through continuing to gamble is not founded in reality. I've never been a gambling addict. But I've had several relationships where I was holding onto the baseless hope that someone would change or that someone's true colors were never the colors that actually came out, etc. and I think that's more or less psychologically the same thing as a very potent gambling addiction. I think the psychological mechanism of staying in an abusive relationship is almost exactly the same as the psychological mechanism of being addicted to playing slots, but much, much stronger because abusive people are like intelligent
0TheAncientGeek
Do people actually believe that no one in England drinks coffee at all?
1afeller08
Someone probably does. I believe that the cultural practice of preferring coffee to tea began in the British colonies at the time the United States started to cease to be part of the British Empire as a side effect of boycotting tea to avoid paying a tea tax. (This is a pretty well-known episode of American history within the United States.) I was boycotting the boycott. Refusing to drink tea is a signaling thing in the United States to let people know that you are not in agreement with the government of the United States as to which side constitutes the actual enemy in most wars the United States fights. It more less means "I was an anglophile on my route to becoming a Bob Dylan fan, and I make a point of singing, at least, the first verse of "Chimes of Freedom" loudly and publicly every May 1, July 4, and September 2." By "more or less," I mean, I'm a musician so that's how I now express some of the same things that I used to express by refusing to drink coffee before I had enough confidence to just sing "flashing for the warrior, whose strength is not to fight; flashing for the refugee on the unarmed road of flight" whenever I see someone wearing a uniform that I deem offensive. Relatedly, refusing to drink coffee while still drinking caffeine is a fairly radical refusal to participate in mainstream culture that an enormous number of second-and-third-tier trendsetters recognize as a common signal used by first-tier trend-setters. For instance, most hipsters are at least vaguely aware that many of the most influential people who call the shots and set the trends in their subculture are some subset of the people who are not actually hipsters but who interact with the fringes of hipster culture and who have also spent at least a few years saying, "I DO NOT DRINK COFFEE. i drink tea." ("No thanks, I drink tea," is completely different.) To become a first-tier trend-setter in hipster culture, you have to be a non-hipster who has learned how to do a super-hipster thing
4gwern
Coffee culture in America doesn't have much to do with the Revolutionary War. The rise of coffee is much later than the American Revolution. The brief boycott didn't last (after all, Americans - infamous smugglers in general - were smuggling plenty of tea because of the taxes, so sourcing tea was not a problem) and there was enormous consumption of tea consistently throughout: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_tea_culture#Colonial_and_Revolutionary_eras In fact, I was surprised to learn recently that American tea was overwhelmingly green tea in the 1800s, and one of the biggest export markets for green tea worldwide. (This was really surprising to me, because if you look around the 1900s, even as late as the 1990s, black tea is the standard American tea; all iced tea is of course black tea, and your local grocery store would be full of mostly just black teas with a few token green teas, and exactly one oolong tea if you were lucky - as I found out the hard way when I became interested in non-black teas.)
0IlyaShpitser
Well, they have something they claim is coffee here...
[-][anonymous]00

I don't have anything to add to the discussion, but in the interest of being phatic I just want to say that this is a great introductory post -- welcome to LessWrong!

[This comment is no longer endorsed by its author]Reply

I haven't read much about ethics on LessWrong or in general, but I recall reading, in passing, things to the effect of, "Consequentialism (more specifically, utilitarianism) and deontology are not necessarily incompatible." I always assumed that they were reconciled by taking utility maximization as the ideal case and deontology as the tractable approximation. "There may be situations in which killing others results in greater utility than not killing others, and those situations may even be more common than I think, but given imperfect info... (read more)

0[anonymous]
I've come to realize that the reason I wrote this post was not to discuss the ethical systems at all. I'm not trying to discuss a general guideline for morality. I'm merely analyzing what leads humans in practice to make decisions. I think that happiness and goodness belong in the same category, and that this has to do with where to draw the boundary. I think the difference in practice between how a professing virtue ethicist acts and how a professing consequentialist acts is that the virtue ethicist tends to make more decisions on a subconscious level, while the consequentialist tends to make more decisions on a conscious level. Comparatively speaking. Edit: I've tweaked the article a bit to better reflect this idea! Yeah, same, I think :) Any discontent I feel about that is on an understanding level, not an emotional level. Or rather, I didn't fully understand the cause, but thanks to your explanation, now I understand a lot better. I think I'm going to change that heading. I used to feel like this world was different than the world that I thought I lived in because of that whole "thief" thing I talked about near the beginning of the article. Coming to the conclusion that I did about goodness being a universal terminal value has helped me sort things out in my mind and acknowledge that I can follow my "conscience" without considering myself "irrational" for sometimes doing stuff, like effective altruism, that inefficiently optimizes my personal happiness.

Um... so my high school Calculus teacher, who is lots, lots smarter than I am, thinks "emotion" is evidence of intelligent design.

I have gone in a similar direction at times, finding my own consciousness to be evidence of a general place for consciousness in the universe. That is, if the machine that is me is conscious of itself in this universe, then EITHER there is a magic sky-father who pastes consciousness onto some kinds of machines but not others, at his whim OR there is a physics-of-consciousness that we observe produces consciousness ... (read more)

2[anonymous]
I definitely don't think ill of him either. It's really just something I don't understand. Interesting... I might give this idea a bit of thought in the future, thank you :)
0TheAncientGeek
I think that would be panpsychism, not pantheism.