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So one side is giving rational arguments for their position, and the other side is dismissing them with a universal counterargument. Seriously, how is this even a tough call?
Because the discussion is not about a fact of nature but human behavior! And the rules are different there.
Basically a smart asshole can make up a ton of excellent rationalizations of why each and every asshole move of his makes sense, but they are still just rationalizations and the real reason of the moves are still his personality (disorders...).
When discussing human behavior you cannot really separate facts from values, and thus you need a certain kind of agreement in values. You also cannot separate subject from object, the object being observed and analyzed and the subject doing the studying, the observation, the analysis.
Okay there are some partial wins to be made - some aspects of human behavior can be nailed down 100% objectively. But you just can't expect it being a general rule.
For this reason, usually it works so that you can discuss it meaningfully with people you are on the same page with, so to speak, i..e. people with broadly similar values to yours and people you consider more or less mentally healthy.
For example, the guy who wrote The Misandry Bubble looks like some alien from an alien planet to me. And I am saying it as a guy who hardly had any action until about 30 or so. We are very seriously not on any sort of a similar page, I hardly understand the hidden assumptions and "values" behind the whole thing. I sort of halfway get it that he thinks a man should be some kind of a sex machine and a woman some sort of a vending machine handing it out, but I have no idea even why.
The point is, when discussing a law of physics, or, say, climate change, you can set yourself and other people aside and try to look at it from a truly neutral, objective angle.
But when discussing human behavior not! The inputs to your computation are basically everything inside you! Because the object to be observed is the human mind, the same thing that does the observation. This is really the issue there - because it is not about strictly defined concepts but about every kind of experience and emotion and value sloshing around inside you and other people, interpreting everything in your own light which can be utterly different from the light of other people. For example the guy who wrote that article uses the term "sexual access to women". I have no idea from what kind of a life could this come from. My interest in women is loving them, being loved by them, and making love, in that order. "Access" is something I would have to a database or a research lab, i.e. to a completely non-human, non-sentient thing. How could I rationally debate an aspect of human behavior when the most basic attitude is so different?
And this is why you hardly see any arguments in e.g. TheBluePill subreddit, just mockery. The only proper argument would be something along the lines "it sounds like we are talking about different species". The whole experience is radically different.
I liked your description of certain unconventional schools of thought as "tough-minded" and "creative." Tough-minded, creative thought processes will often involve concepts and metaphors that make people uncomfortable, including the people who think them up.
Sometimes, understanding the behavior of large groups of people involves concepts or metaphors that would be unhealthy to apply at the individual level. For instance, you can learn a lot about human behavior by thinking about game theory and the Prisoner's Dilemma. This does not mean that you need to think about other people as "prisoners," or think about your interactions with them as a "game" or as a "dilemma."
I think you probably do have a lot of differences in values from people who are “red-pillers, manosphericals, conservatives, reactionaries, libertarians,” but I think this case is really just about inferential distance on the object-level. Although “sexual access” has potential problematic connotations, it actually accurately describes situations where some people’s dating challenges are so great that they are effectively excluded. I apologize for the length this post will be, but I want to drop down to the object-level for a while to give you sufficient evidence to chew on:
Demographics: sex ratio and operational sex ratio have a gigantic influence on society. Exhibit A: China has a surplus of men. Exhibit B: The shortage of black men due to imprisonment turns dating upside-down in the black community and causes black women to compete fiercely for black men. Exhibit C: In virtually all US cities (not just the West Coast), there are more single men than women below age 35 (scroll down for the age breakdown or use the sliders). Young men face a level of competition than young women do not.
If something like 120 men are competing for 100 women, in the system if monogamous, then 20 of those men are going to be excluded from marriage. Yes, in some sense, all 120 have an "opportunity," but we know that under monogamy, 20 of them will be left out in the cold. And under a poly system, the results will be even worse, because humans are more polygynous than polyandrous. When low-status men are guaranteed to lose out in dating and marriage due to an unfavorable sex ratio, then that starts looking like a lack of "access."
Let's talk about polygyny a bit more. A recent article defended gay marriage from the charge of opening up the door to polygamy:
And there's that word again: "access." The notion of men being shut out of dating under polygyny mating appears in an entirely mainstream and liberal source. There are also concepts like “high-status” and “low-status” males, which feminists would often object to in other contexts.
Cultural forces: the quality of information about dating for introverted men is so poor that it is actively damaging and has the effect of excluding them from dating. There is also a decline in socialization and institutions around dating. For evidence, it is sufficient to look at the existence of the PUA community. Look at hookup culture on college campuses. In a healthy society, with healthy socialization and a monogamous mating system, we wouldn't even be having this conversation because many of the same men in the manosphere or PUA community would be too busy hanging out with their girlfriends or wives to be complaining on the internet.
Legal and economic forces: In some Asian countries, women’s minimum expectations for husbands involves buying a house with multiple bedrooms, and only some men can economically afford that; the rest lack access to marriage because they lack the economic prerequisites. In many Western countries, if men get divorced, they can face such punishing child support and alimony burden that they must move to a small apartment (or even end up in debtor’s prison if they can’t pay). These men face steep challenges in attracting future girlfriends and wives due to their economic dispossession.
As I’ve shown at the object level, there are large cultural, demographic, economic, and legal forces that influence how challenging dating is and how people behave. These problems are much larger than asshole men blaming women for not putting out. Lack of “sexual access” is an entirely reasonable way to describe what happens to men under a skewed operational sex ratio or polygyny, though I would be totally fine to try other terms instead. I realize the term isn’t perfect, and that some people who use it might have objectionable beliefs, but if we give into crimestop and guilt-by-association, then we would know a lot less about the world.
So, basically, there are two groups of people with grievances. The ingroup is very good at impression management and public relations. The outgroup is bad at impression management, but your gut is telling you that they might be on to something. Yet you are suspicious of some of the outgroup’s arguments, because the ingroup says that the outgroup is just a bunch of “smart assholes,” and because the outgroup’s claims have problematic connotations in the outgroup’s moral framework.
I don’t think your reaction is unreasonable given your vantage point and level of inferential distance from the outgroup. But note that there is a strong incentive for the ingroup to set an incredibly high bar for the moral acceptability of the outgroup’s grievances, so it’s necessary to apply a healthy degree of skepticism to the ingroup’s moral arguments unless you have confirmed them independently.
In some cases, we will have to go to the object-level to discover which group is the “smart assholes” who are confabulating. Of course both groups will try to tar the others’ motives and reputations, but the seeming victor of that conflict will be the group with the best public relations skills, not necessarily the group with the more accurate views.
If your gut is telling you that there is potential truth in the outgroup’s arguments, then don’t let the ingroup’s moral framework shut down your investigation, especially when that investigation has implications for whether the ingroup’s moral framework is any good in the first place. Otherwise, you risk getting stuck in an closed loop of belief. I think the same argument applies to one’s own moral framework, also.
The issue is that the Prisoner's Dilemma doesn't seem to predict human behavior in modern society well.Partially because it is the kind of tough situation that is uncommon now - this is a bit similar to the SSC's thrive-vs-survive spectrum. All this tough-minded right-wing stuff is essentially survivalist, and every time I am back in Eastern Europe I too switch back to a survivalist mode which is familiar to me, but as usually I am sitting fat and happy in the comfortable West, I am simply not in a survivalist mode nor is anyone else I see. People focus on thriving - and that includes that they are not really in this kind of me-first selfish mood but more interested in satisfying social standards about being empathic and nice.
I totally accept the dating market is an uphill battle for most young men - I too was in these shoes, perhaps I would still be if not by sheer luck finding an awesome wife. This is not the issue at all. Rather it is simply what follows from it. This is a good, research-based summary of the opposing view here: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/07/07/the-myth-of-the-alpha-male/
This isn't really that. I care very little about being PC except when it is about love. That is, if some kids gaming on Xbox call each other faggots the implied homophobia does not really bother some kind of inner social justice warrior in me, I don't really feel this need to stick to a progressivism-approved list of okay words. But I have this notion that relationships and dating are not simply a brutal dog-eat-dog market competing for meat. There must be something we may call love there, something that goes beyond the merely personal and selfish level, a sense that one would if need be sacrifice for the other. And love is really incompatible with hate or harboring hidden ressentiment or anything even remotely similar, such as objectification. For all I care people may hate whoever they want to, maybe they have good reasons for doing so, but when people seem to hate the very same people they are trying to love I must point out the contradiction. Objectification may be a valid approach when you are a hiring bricklayers - if the project is late, just throw more warm bodies on the problem, that kind of objectification (workers as a fungible resource etc.) Objectification maybe a valid approach in the whorehouse and the strip club, even in the swingers club. But relationships must have a core of love which is really incompatible with objectification.
Maybe I am not only up against RP here - maybe "normal" young people think like life is a no-strings-attached swingers club, maybe they objectify too. I may be against general trends amongst the young...
And thus I am not policing words. I am pointing out that choices of words demonstrate mindsets and attitudes and "access" must flow from an objectifying one. Hence the goal is probably not a normal loving relationship.
This is purely pragmatic! Perhaps in the swingers club, love is not required, thus objecification is okay and thus terms like access demonstrate valid mindsets. But what I am saying here is guys who dream about real loving relationships yet think like this are sabotaging themselves and this is part of why it is such a hard uphill battle for them.
My point is a lot like if you flex both your biceps and triceps both will be weak because they work against each other. To flex the biceps really strong you must turn off the triceps. Men who want to find love must really learn how NOT to flex the ressentiment-muscle, the grievance-muscle against women, and this includes thinking of them fully as persons. Not just use a "more approved" word than access but really change the mindset so that such words don't even come to mind.
This is clearly not about impression management. It is about deep contradictions in the outgroups goals and attitudes. My gut is saying that many of the grievances are correct, I have felt them too but yet the grievance state of mind is self-sabotage. Imagine the guy who was mugged by blacks and becomes racist. At least he has from that on a consistent goal - keep self and black people really apart from each other. Imagine the guy who constantly sucked at dating, when succeeded, got cheated on, maybe even got divorced on frivolous grounds. He has two contradictory goals or attitudes, the inner mental pushback against women which manifests as ressentiment or a grievance-mindset, and yet the desire to get sex.
I think your “mental muscle” analogy is interesting: you are suggesting that exercising mental grievance or ressentiment is unhealthy for relationships, and is part of why men red pill men have an “uphill battle.” You argue that love is incompatible with resentment. You also argue that certain terms “demonstrate” particular unhealthy and resentful mindsets, or lead to “objectification” which is tantamount to not viewing others as people.
I share your concern that some red pill men have toxic attitudes towards women which hamper their relationships. I disagree that language like “sexual access” is sufficient to demonstrate resentment of women, and I explained other reasoning behind that language in my previous comment where I discussed operational sex ratio, polygyny, and other impersonal forces.
My other argument is that views of relationships operate at different levels of explanation. There are least 3 levels: the macro level of society, the local level of your peers and dating pool, and the dyadic level of your interpersonal relationships. Why can’t someone believe that dating is a brutal, unfair, dog-eat-dog competition at the macro or local level, but once they succeed in getting into a relationship, they fall in love and belief in sacrifice, like you want? It’s also possible to have a grievance towards a group of people, like bankers, but still respect your personal banker as a human being.
A metaphor that is useful for understanding the mating market at the societal or local level can be emotionally toxic if you apply it at the dyadic level. If you believe that the current mating market results in some men lacking sexual access at the macro level, that’s a totally correct and neutral description of what happens under a skewed operational sex ratio and polygyny. If you tell your partner “honey, you’ve been denying me sexual access for the past week,” then you’re being an asshole.
In the past, men and women of the past held beliefs about gender roles and sex differences that would be considered scandalously sexist today. It seems implausible that our ancestors didn’t love each other. People are good at compartmentalizing and believing that their partner is special.
Your theory about concepts leading to resentment and resentment being a barrier to relationships could be true, but I think it’s much more likely that you have the causal relationship backwards: it’s mostly loneliness that causes resentment, not the other way around. For instance, in the case of a skewed operational sex ratio, some people are just going to end up single no matter how zen their attitudes are.
Even if there is a risk of alienation from understanding sex differences, and sexual economics, I still think it’s better to try to build an epistemically accurate view of relationships, and then later make peace with any resentment that is a by-product of this understanding.
It seems like the only alternative is to try to mentally avoid any economic, anthropological, or gender-political insight into dating that might cause you to feel resentment: blinkering your epistemic rationality for the instrumentally rational goal of harmonious relationships.
There’s also a genuinely open question of how big sex differences are: if sex differences are smaller than I think, then I’m probably harming my relationships by being too cynical, but if they are larger than I think, then I’m naive and risk finding out the hard way. I really doubt that relationships are the one place where Litany of Tarski doesn't apply.
It sounds like your current relationship attitudes are bringing you success in your relationship and that terms like “objectification” are more helpful to you than “sexual access.” That’s totally fine, but other people have different challenges and are coming from a different place, so I recommend suspending judgment about what concepts their mindsets entail and why they are single. If you believe that toxic attitudes towards women are correlated with their concepts, then that’s plausible, though it’s a different argument.
To go a bit more meta, I would argue that a lot of the resistance towards men developing inconvenient conclusions about sex ratio, polygyny, sex differences, etc… is not because these ideas are necessarily harmful to male-female relationships, but because they are harmful to feminist narratives about male privilege. It is morally reprehensible how feminists use their own grievance-based concepts of “objectification” to reject any macro-level analysis of male-female dynamics that might be unflattering towards women. It’s just far too convenient how sociological, economic, and anthropological arguments that would be acceptable in any other circumstance are dismissed as denying women’s humanity or personhood. I think you should be just as skeptical towards feminist grievance concepts as you are towards red pill grievance concepts.
Of course, any idiot who doesn't like the conclusion of some argument can accuse the person making it of being a smart asshole.
I don't see what this has to do with the "smart asshole" problem. A "smart asshole" (or a boxed AI, or the devil) can just as easily create a plausible sounding argument about physics as about human behavior.
Is the term somehow ambiguous? Maybe your English isn't that good but it seems pretty self-explanatory.
To the extent there is a different culture, it's probably caused by the social situation in Hungary being much less dysfunctional than the social situation in the US.
I haven't lived in Eastern Europe for about 10 years now. When I did it felt a lot like a "gangsta" culture, like in GTA: San Andreas esp. in the nightlife / club scene, big buff aggressive guys and stripperish girls with infantile Hello Kitty accessories - does that come accross as functional? I have lived in the UK which is probably the closest to the US culture around here - I must admit I did not like much the music pubs with the fat girls being drunk and cussing and even fighting as if they were male sailors, but as my expertise was in manufacturing software, I lived in a really industrial, read, PROLE area, near Dudley, so that is not really a good sample. It is just prole culture for the most part. Now living in Vienna the only serious social dysfunction I see is everybody being fscking old - it has a retirement home vibe. Demographics screwed up.
But what does it have to do with the problem I raised with the word access? The problem I raised is that it is a dehumanizing term that ignores the romantic and loving aspects of relationships, even ignores how sex is a mutual pleasing participating act, it objectifies women as something passive and handing out sex as rewards, basically it has something akin to a prostitution vibe. This is not how a healthy relationship works. Not even how a healthy one night stand - it is based on mutual desire and mutual escalation. It feels incredibly transactional at best and objectifying at worst.
But I am not trying to raise a moral finger here. The issue is not that this is morally wrong, the issue is the inferential distance, that there is not one objectively examinable set of human behaviors but the author and me think/talk about entirely differently behaving humans. How the heck to find a rational conclusion in that? There is hardly a shared set of experience because there is hardly a shared value or goal or motive.
Yes, but the motives would be entirely different - and yes, they matter. The human mind is apparently too well optimized to win arguments instead of be right. Which suggests listening to arguments is not even a good way to find truth but even when you do at least you need to have some idea about the personality of the other, their motives, where are they coming from and where they want to go. You have to be at least the same tribe, in the sense of shared motives and goals. This is even true in physics - the difference being that academia has a very good institutional setup for sharing goals and motivations and values. Academia built a tribe in natural science. Go outside academia and you find the same mess - "Vedic science" guys arguing with UFO believers and so on. Cross-tribal it doesn't work.
The point is that from what I heard Hungary is a culture where someone whose "interest in women is loving them, being loved by them, and making love, in that order" has a chance of winding up with a woman.
What do you mean by "objectifies". I've yet to see a coherent explanation of the concept that doesn't boil down to "applying Baysian (or any) reasoning to humans is evil".
Now you're just resembling the semi-marxist/semi-aristocratic "how dare you reduce what I do to something as banal as trade!"
Care to explain what you think the two sets of motives are?
Rather you have to be running good epistomology rather than anti-epistomology.
This IMHO works in every culture, Anglo ones including, you just have to ignore the party b...es and go for the intelligent and non-crazy. Usually it means training yourself to be not too focused on cover-girl looks and be okay with stuff like no makeup. As a theoretical example, consider how would you pick up Megan McArdle - she writes, sounds and looks a lot like my past girlfriends, and Suderman looks and sounds broadly like the same kind of guy I am. This just a hunch, though.
However I fully agree that my dating experience in the UK was worse than in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Slovakia or Serbia. (Lived in some places and went to all kinds of meditation camps in the others.) And perhaps it would be worse in the US too. This is largely because I can tolerate things like no make-up, no heels, body hair etc. but I cannot really deal with obesity, and that means playing in a shrinking and increasingly competitive market. Yet, on the whole, my UK experience was not so bad either. On speed dating events in Birmingham, there was a non-fat, intelligent, friendly, considerate 15-20% always.
This is that simple basic Kantian thinking that got deeply incorporated into the cultural DNA of the West centuries ago, this why I don't understand what is in not to understand about. It is about primarily treating people as ends and only secondarily and cautiously as means. It is about understanding humans have a faculty of reason and thus autonomy. What follows from this? Autonomy means people can decide to be different from each other, and thus be really cautious with generalizations and stereotypes - perhaps, cultural ones are still okay, because socialization is a powerful thing, but gender is not a culture. Second, and more important, the ends not means stuff means not seeing sex as a prize to be won by an active, driven men and women just passively hand it out as a reward for the effort, but as an mutually initiated, mutually desired interaction between two autonomous beings with their own desires. It would be useful to read a bit around on the Pervocracy blog about this.
Objectification is not necessarily sexual and it is really an old idea, not some later day SJW fashion. It is treating people as means. Marx argued that in a 19. century factory the proletarian is objectified into being treated like a human machine. This may or may not be true, but an example of the idea. Or if you look at how people realized maybe slavery is not such a good idea, a large part of this was this old Kantian idea that a human should not use a human as a mere tool, without regard to the will of the other human. Rather if we want people to work for us, we should negotiate with them a price on an equal level, acquire consent, and make sure both got our will satisfied in the transaction. This is the same idea. But objectification is gradual, it is not a binary switch - one could argue employment in a hierarchical business is still more so than being an entrepreneur.
An object is simply something that does not have own goals, it is the object of desire, or the tool to achieve other desires with, of other people. If you understand what being a person, what personhood means, well, objectification is just a denial of it.
I must stress it is not some kind of a far-left ideology, it is something a traditional gentleman from 1900 would understand. Persoonhood is a through and through traditional Christian idea, one of the central concepts of Christian philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personhood#Christianity and objectification is just whatever denies it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification
Similarly, I would not say objectifying people is a traditional, conservative thing. Just because feminists fight it it does not mean it is so - reversed stupidity is not intelligence, reversed progressivism is not traditionalism. If you look up Roger Scruton's Right-Hegelian philosophy of sex, it is very decently non-objectifying.
I would say objectification is largely a modern phenomenon, a phenomenon in an age where machines and processes are so predominant that we tend to see people like them, too, and the essence of personhood - intellect and will - gets ignored.
I would also say mass gunpowder armies played an important role in objectifying people.
Sexual objectification is simply a subset of this generic trend.
Another useful resource is existentialists like Sartre, "The Other".
The intelligent asshole will perhaps present a bogus physical theory to gain status - but the arguments will be about a commonly understood, verifiable thing outside himself. But a social theory will not be about a thing, it will be essentially about himself, something only he really knows and we can just guess.
Running good epistemology on human concerns, social concerns is highly desirable but incredibly hard becasue we cannot separate the observer from the observed.
Interestingly, Rothbard and Austrian Economics have something interesting to say here, the limitations of empiricism about people's behavior. You need repeatable experiments. But if you repeat it with different people, that is not really valid because people are far, far too diverse - remember, autonomy. It is simply wrong in principle to treat beings with intellect and will fungible. If I repeat a behavior experiment with two different groups of people and get something like 62% an 65% do X then of course that means something, but it is not, strictly speaking, the repetition of the experiment. If you repeat it with the same people, you find they learned from the previous experiment rendering the experiment less valid, because not really repeated the same way. So basically we cannot, without brainwashing, repeat experiments in human behavior. Nevertheless at the end of the day we still run experiments with human behavior because just what else can one do? We work with what we have. But the confidence in these things should always necessarily be far lower, for these reasons. The strict repetition criteria is never satisfied.
Just a hunch but I suspect Megan McArdle would not be doing speed dating.
Except the generalizations are frequently correct and have enormous predictive power.
Why? Yes, socialization is powerful, but so is genetics, including the difference between XX and XY. In particular the SRY gene has much more influence than a typical gene.
You see to be confusing is and ought there. However, you think sex ought to be obtained, being active and driven (among other things) makes a man more likely to get it. Whether, you consider the women's behavior here "passive" or "actively seeking driven men" is irrelevant, and probably doesn't correspond to any actual distinction in reality.
So you're saying its not just SJW because it was also used by their leftist predecessors?
If you mean that humans are game-theoretic agents, I agree. However, I don't see how "therefore we can't or shouldn't apply probability theory to them" follows.
Doesn't this seem to contradict your earlier claim that anti-objectification was responsible for the abolition of slavery?
Well, in this case the social theory in question is indeed about a verifiable thing outside the person, namely the dynamics of human romantic interaction.
Quote please. I'm guessing you're badly misinterpreting what they wrote. Probably something about how since people respond to incentives, empirically observed behavior will change when the incentives change. Something like a proto-version of Goodhart's law. This is not the same thing as the claim that the laws of probability don't apply to humans, which is the claim you seem to be making.
If you mean there is a lot of variance among humans, I agree. However, you seem to be arguing that we should worship and/or ignore this variance rather then studying it.
I know what you mean, but I think there is a coherent notion in there, along the following lines: 1. Human beings are people, with hopes and fears and plans and preferences and ideas and so forth. 2. Inevitably, some of our thoughts about, and actions toward, other human beings involve more attention to these features of them than others. 3. Something is "objectification" to the extent that we would change it if we attended more to the specifically person-ish features of the other people involved: their hopes, fears, plans, preferences, ideas, etc. (Or: that a decent person would, or that we should. These framings make the value-ladenness of the notion more explicit. Or, and actually this may be a better version than the other three, that they would prefer you to. The fact that on my account there are these different notions of "objectification" isn't, I think, a weakness; words have ranges of meaning.)
So, e.g., consider "treating someone as a sex object", which for present purposes we may take to mean ignoring aspects of them not relevant to sex. If you are currently engaged in having sex with them, this is probably a good thing; on careful consideration of their wants and needs as a person you would probably conclude that when having sex they would prefer you to focus on those aspects of them that are relevant to having sex. On the other hand, if you are in the audience of a seminar they are presenting, you should probably be attending to their ideas about fruit fly genetics or whatever rather than to how they'd look right now with no clothes on; at any rate, that would probably be their preference.
I *would prefer it" if you sent me a million dollars. By this definition it would seem that you're objectifying me by not sending me the money?
Only in so far as the reason why I don't is that I'm not paying attention to the fact that you have preferences.
If I'm perfectly well aware of that but don't give you the money because I don't have it, because I think you would waste it, because I would rather spend it on enlarging my house, or because I have promised my gods that I will never give anything to someone who uses the name of their rival, then I may or may not be acting rightly but it's got nothing to do with "objectification" in the sense I described.
Did you think of the fact that I wanted a million dollars until I told you?
OK, if you allow excuses like that, i.e., "I know your preferences and don't care", then I don't see how PUA stuff counts as "objectification".
Explicitly? No, but I don't think that's relevant. I'm aware that people generally prefer having more money, and giving someone else $1M would be difficult enough for me that it seems vanishingly unlikely that explicitly generating the thought "X would be better off with an extra $1M" for everyone I interact with would change my behaviour in any useful way. If in the course of talking to you it became apparent that you had a need so extraordinary as to give a near-stranger reason for mortgaging his house and liquidating a big chunk of his retirement savings, then I'm pretty sure I would explicitly generate that thought. (I still might not act on it, of course.)
The borderline between objectification and mere selfishness is sometimes fuzzy, no doubt. On reflection, I think "nothing to do with objectification" in my earlier comment was an overstatement; if A treats B just as he would if he were largely ignoring the fact that B has preferences and opinions and skills and hopes and fears and so forth, then that has something to do with objectification, namely the fact that it generates the same behaviours. Let's introduce some ugly terminology: "cobjectification" (c for cognitive) is thinking about someone in a way that neglects their personhood; "bobjectification" (b for behaviour, and also for broad) is treating them in the same sort of way as you would if you were cobjectifying them.
I am very far from being an expert on PUA and was not commenting on PUA. But if you are approaching an encounter with someone and the only thing on your mind is what you can do that maximizes the probability that they will have sex with you tonight, that's a clear instance of bobjectification. It's probably easier to do if you cobjectify them too, but I don't know whether doing so is an actual technique adopted by PUA folks. And I guess that when anti-PUA folks say "PUA is objectifying" they are making two separate claims: (1) that PUA behaviour is bobjectifying, which is harmful to the people it's applied to, and (2) that people practising PUA are (sometimes? always?) cobjectifying, which is a character flaw or a cognitive error or a sin or something. It seems hard to argue with #1. #2 is much harder to judge because it involves guessing at the internal states of the PUAs, but it seems kinda plausible.
Now: perhaps objectification in the broad ("bobjectification") sense is just the same thing as, say, selfishness. They certainly overlap a lot. But I think (1) they're not quite the same -- e.g., if you treat someone as an object for the benefit of some other person you're objectifying them without being selfish, and (2) even when they describe the same behaviours they focus on different possible explanations. Probably a lot of selfishness is made easier by not attending fully to the personhood of the victim, and probably a lot of objectification is motivated by selfishness, but "X isn't paying (much/enough) attention to Y's personhood" and "X is (strongly/too) focused on his own wants" are different statements and, e.g., might suggest different approaches if you happen to want X to stop doing that.
It's not ambiguous. It's just that it communicates certain values that are foreign to DeVliegendeHollander.
And, to be quite clear about it, DVH at no point suggested that he doesn't understand what the term means (despite VoR's respose which seems to presuppose that he did). He understands what it means, he just thinks it implies a strange and unpleasant attitude.
And yet here he claims that he's "not trying to raise a moral finger here".
So is his problem that this "strange and unpleasant attitude", represents a flaw in the argument that would render its conclusions false.
Calling something unpleasant is perfectly consistent with "not trying to raise a moral finger". (For the avoidance of doubt, the word "unpleasant" here is mine, not DVH's, but I don't think I've misrepresented his meaning.) I am not entirely convinced that he really isn't trying to raise a moral finger, at least a little bit.
I don't think I see how the attitude DVH thinks he perceives via the idea of "sexual access to women" could represent a flaw in any argument, nor is it quite clear to me what argument you have in mind or which conclusions would be being invalidated. Could you be a bit more explicit?
I have no idea either but if you look up thread, you'll see that DVH seems to think it does.
Oh, OK, I'd misunderstood what you were saying. But I don't think I agree; I don't see that DVH is claiming that any argument is invalidated, exactly. I'm not sure to what extent there are even actual arguments under discussion. Isn't he rather saying: look, there's all this stuff that's been written, but its basic premises are so far removed from mine that there's no engaging with it?
I expect that, e.g., the book he mentions has some arguments in it, and I expect he does disagree with some of the conclusions because of disagreeing with this premise, by it looks to me as if that's a side-effect rather than the main issue.
Imagine reading a lot of material by, let's say, ancient Egyptians, that just take for granted throughout that your primary goal is to please the Egyptian gods. You might disagree with some conclusions because of this. You might agree with some conclusions despite it (e.g., if the goods are held to want a stable and efficiently run state, and you want that too). But disagreement with the conclusions of some arguments wouldn't be your main difficulty, so much as finding that practically every sentence is somehow pointing in a weird direction. I think that's how DVH feels about the stuff he's referring to.
Except he didn't object to a premise, he objected to the term "sexual access to women".
In which case I could point to a specific false premise, namely the existence of the Egyptian gods. Neither you not DVH have pointed to any false premises. You've objected to terms used, but have not claimed that the terms don't point to anything in reality.
It seems like pretty much the same dynamic would occur with paperclip maximizers. Clippy can argue as rationally and correctly as ve likes that terrible thing will increase the quantity of paperclips made, and the counterargument would be "you're an uncompassionate asshole".
No, the counter argument would be "we don't care about paperclips".
Furthermore in the case of the SJW/NRx debate, most of the "terrible things" in question are things that no one had previously considered terrible until the SJW (and their predecessors) started loudly insisting that these things were terrible(tm) and that the only possible reason anyone would disagree was lack of compassion.