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jacob_cannell comments on Analogical Reasoning and Creativity - Less Wrong Discussion

25 Post author: jacob_cannell 01 July 2015 08:38PM

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Comment author: passive_fist 08 July 2015 09:33:10PM *  0 points [-]

I'm really glad that you're interested in this subject.

I recommend the 2009 book for the argument it presents that a symbolic key-value-store memory seems to be necessary for a lot of what the brains of humans and various other animals do. You say it has 'nothing new', so I assume then that you're already familiar with this argument.

Link? Sounds uninteresting and not new. I'm beyond skeptical - especially given that a standard RNN (or a sufficiently deep feedforward net) is a universal approximator.

You're referring to the Cybenko theorem and other theorems, which only establish 'universality' for a very narrow definition of 'universal'. In particular, a feedforward neural net lacks persistent memory. RNNs do not necessarily solve this problem! In many (not all, but the most common) RNN formulations, what exists is simply a form of 'volatile' memory that is easily overwritten when new training data emerges. In contrast, experiments involving https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyeblink_conditioning show that nervous systems store persistent memories. In particular, if you train an individual to respond to a conditioning stimulus, and then later 'un-train' the individual, and then attempt to train the individual again, they will learn much faster than the first time. A persistent change to the neural network structure has occurred. There have been various ways of trying to get around this problem of RNNs such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_short_term_memory but they wind up being either incredibly large (the Cybenko theorem does not place a limit on the size of the net) and thus infeasible, or otherwise ineffective.

Why ineffective? Experiments show why. Hesslow's recent experiment on cerebellar Purkinje cells: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/41/14930.short shows that this mechanism of learning spatiotemporal behavior and storing it persistently can be isolated to a single cell. This is very significant. It shows that not only the perceptron model, but even the Hodgkin-Huxley model is woefully inadequate for describing neural behavior.

The entire argument around the difference between the 'standard' neural network way of doing things and the way the brain seems to do things revolves around symbolic processing, as I said. In particular, any explanation of memory must be able to explain its persistence, the fact that symbolic information (numbers, etc.) can be stored and retrieved, and this all occurs persistently. Especially, the property of retrieval is often misunderstood. Retrieval means that, given some 'key' or 'pointer' to a memory, we can retrieve that memory. Often, network/associative explanations of memory revolve around purely associative memories. That is, memories of the form where if you have part of the memory, the system gives you back the rest of the memory. This is all well and good, but to actually form a general-purpose memory you need to do something somewhat different: be able to recall the memory when all you have is just a pointer to the memory (as is done in the main memory of a computer). This can be implemented in an associative memory but it requires two additional mechanisms: A mechanism to associate a pointer with a memory, and a mechanism to integrate the memory and pointer together in an associative structure. We do not yet know what form such a mechanism takes in the brain.

Gallistel's other ideas - like using RNA or DNA to store memories - seem dubious and ill-supported by evidence. But he's generally right about the need for a compact symbolic memory system.

Comment author: jacob_cannell 10 July 2015 12:13:05AM 1 point [-]

I recommend the 2009 book for the argument it presents that a symbolic key-value-store memory seems to be necessary for a lot of what the brains of humans and various other animals do. You say it has 'nothing new', so I assume then that you're already familiar with this argument.

I actually said:

If there is anything new/interesting in there for me, it would only be in a couple of chapters.

The whole symbolic key-value-store memory is a main key point of my OP and my earlier brain article. "Memory and the computational brain", from what I can tell, seems to provide a good overview of the recent neuroscience stuff which I covered in my ULM post. I'm not disparaging the book, just saying that it isn't something that I have time to read at the moment, and most of the material looks familiar.

There have been various ways of trying to get around this problem of RNNs such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_short_term_memory but they wind up being either incredibly large (the Cybenko theorem does not place a limit on the size of the net) and thus infeasible, or otherwise ineffective.

LSTM is already quite powerful, and new variants - such as the recent grid LSTM - continue to expand the range of what can feasibly be learned. In many ways their learning abilities are already beyond the brain (see the parity discussion in the other thread).

That being said, LSTM isn't everything, and a general AGI will also need a memory-based symbolic system, which can excel especially at rapid learning from few examples - as discussed. Neural turing machines and memory networks and related are now expanding into that frontier. You seem to be making a point that standard RNNs can't do effective symbolic learning - and I agree. That's what the new memory based systems are for.

Why ineffective? Experiments show why. Hesslow's recent experiment on cerebellar Purkinje cells: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/41/14930.short shows that this mechanism of learning spatiotemporal behavior and storing it persistently can be isolated to a single cell. This is very significant.

Ok, I read enough of that paper to get the gist. I don't think it's that significant. Assuming their general conclusion is correct and they didn't make any serious experimental mistakes, all that they have shown is that the neuron itself can learn a simple timing response. The function they learned only requires that the neuron model a single parameter - a t value. We have already known for a while that many neurons feature membrane plasticity and other such mechanisms that effectively function as learnable per-neuron parameters that effect the transfer function. This has been known and even incorporated into some ANNs and found to be somewhat useful. It isn't world changing. The cell isn't learning a complex spatiotemporal pattern - such as entire song. It's just learning a single or a handful of variables.