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ZankerH comments on Open Thread, Jul. 27 - Aug 02, 2015 - Less Wrong Discussion

5 Post author: MrMind 27 July 2015 07:16AM

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Comment author: Vaniver 27 July 2015 04:46:08PM *  4 points [-]

See also the website of the (I think) most prominent pressure group in this area: Campaign to Stop Killer Robots.

This came up at the AI Ethics panel at AAAI, and the "outlaws" argument actually seems like a fairly weak practical counterargument in the reference class that the ban proponents think is relevant. International agreements really have reduced to near-zero the usage of chemical warfare and landmines.

The two qualifiers--offensive and autonomous-- are also both material. If we have anti-rocket flechettes on a tank, it's just not possible to have a human in the loop, because you need to launch them immediately after you detect an incoming rocket, so defensive autonomous weapons are in. Similarly, offensive AI is in; your rifle / drone / etc. can identify targets and aim for you, but the ban is arguing that there needs to be a person that verifies the targeting system is correct and presses the button (to allow the weapon to fire; it can probably decide the timing). The phrase they use is "meaningful human control."

The idea, I think, is that everyone is safer if nation-states aren't developing autonomous killbots to fight other nation's autonomous killbots. So long as they're more like human-piloted mechs, there are slightly fewer nightmare scenarios involving mad engineers and hackers.

The trouble I had with it was the underlying principle of "meaningful human control" is an argument I do not buy for livingry, and that makes me reluctant to buy it for weaponry, or to endorse weaponry bans that could then apply the same logic to livingry. It seems to me that they implicitly assume that a principle on 'life and death decisions' only affects weaponry, but not at all--one of the other AAAI attendees pointed out that in their donor organ allocation software, the fact that there was no human control was seen as a plus, because it implied that there was no opportunity for corruption of the people involved in making the decision, because those people did not exist. (Of course people were involved at a higher meta level, in writing the software and establishing the principles by which the software operates.)

And that's just planning; if we're going to have robot cars or doctors or pilots or so on, we need to accept robots making life and death decisions and relegate 'meaningful human control' to the places where it's helpful. And it seems like we might also want robot police and soldiers.

Comment author: ZankerH 27 July 2015 06:30:21PM *  5 points [-]

International agreements really have reduced to near-zero the usage of chemical warfare and landmines.

And yet the international community has failed to persecute those responsible for the one recent case of a government using chemical warfare to murder its citizens en masse - Syria. Plenty of governments still maintain extensive stockpiles of chemical weapons. Given the enforcement track-record, I'd say given being put in a similar situation to the Syrian government, they're more likely to use similar or harsher measures in the future.

If you outlaw something and then fail to enforce the law, it isn't worth the paper it's written on. How do you think the ban on autonomous weapons will be enforced if the USA, China or Russia unilaterally break it? It won't be.

Comment author: satt 30 July 2015 11:44:09PM 0 points [-]

If you outlaw something and then fail to enforce the law, it isn't worth the paper it's written on.

This strikes me as...not obvious. In my country most rapes are not reported, let alone prosecuted, but that doesn't lead me to conclude that the law against rape "isn't worth the paper it's written on".

Comment author: VoiceOfRa 02 August 2015 07:57:04PM 4 points [-]

What is the source of that data? I ask because there is a lot of misleading and outright false data on rape rates floating about.

Comment author: gjm 02 August 2015 11:03:46PM 2 points [-]

The page at the far end of satt's link has, in addition to its presentation of the data, extensive information about the underlying numbers and where they all come from.