You're looking at Less Wrong's discussion board. This includes all posts, including those that haven't been promoted to the front page yet. For more information, see About Less Wrong.

MattG comments on Link: The Cook and the Chef: Musk's Secret Sauce - Wait But Why - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: taygetea 11 November 2015 05:46AM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (31)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: gwern 11 November 2015 10:44:10PM 9 points [-]

In other words, if you give this as advice to someone random, will they end up successful or an outcast. I'd guess the latter in most cases.

The whole thing reads like a fairly standard (but very disorganized) self-help tract trying to exhort people into being more agenty and strategic. Some of it maps directly onto LW self-help posts, even, like 'people are not automatically strategic' and existing techniques like COZE.

Since, for better or worse, most self-help material doesn't wind up helping or harming even when someone actually tries to use them, I don't think that this particular self-help tract will be any different - anyone trying to use the ideas and aspire to be a chef rather than a cook will wind up probably in the same place as they would before. People aren't going to either become billionaires or homeless just because they read something online; if writing could reliably have that sort of impact, we would live in a very different and much more interesting world than we do...

I agree with OP that most people do have sub-optimal levels of agentiness and planning and have really wacky evaluations of risk (consider anything to do with children, or terrorism), so if it did do anything, it would probably be helpful on net.

Comment author: [deleted] 11 November 2015 11:09:14PM 0 points [-]

Since, for better or worse, most self-help material doesn't wind up helping or harming even when someone actually tries to use them,

Small nitpick: I think the reason self-help has little effect is that most people don't apply it, not that they apply it and nothing happens.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 11 November 2015 11:35:45PM 0 points [-]

But why do they not apply it? Either way, the self-help material doesn't wind up helping or harming.

Perhaps it is because most people are not nearly as free as they experience themselves to be. They think that they can learn, that they can know, that they can act, but in reality they mostly struggle with anything larger than choosing from a restaurant menu. They struggle even with no-brainers like not living as a couch potato. Why do we even have a short code for "couch potato"?

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 12 November 2015 01:40:03PM 1 point [-]

But why do they not apply it? Either way, the self-help material doesn't wind up helping or harming.

To elaborate on MattG's "doing shit differently is hard" hypothesis: implementing most kinds of self-help advice requires permanently adopting new habits, and implementing habit change is hard. We know from habit formation studies that in order to establish a new habit, you need to associate the habit with consistent rewards and triggers, so that each time that you encounter the trigger you carry out the habit, and you should also receive a reward on a fair number of the occasions that you carry out the habit. Furthermore habits can easily fall apart if the triggers aren't robust and flexible enough.

Comment author: [deleted] 12 November 2015 05:03:16PM 2 points [-]

On top of this you have Scott Alexander's "Life Hack Paradox", where those self-help habits that aren't hard become saturated, and simply become the cost of doing business (E.G Goal setting, Caffeine)

Comment author: [deleted] 12 November 2015 12:05:14AM 0 points [-]

But why do they not apply it?

Preliminary hypothesis: Doing shit differently is hard.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 12 November 2015 09:37:19PM 1 point [-]

"Hard" is just a dormitive principle here. If we observe many people attempting a thing and few succeeding, we call it hard because that is what the word means. It is not an explanation of why most fail, only an observation that they do.

Comment author: [deleted] 12 November 2015 09:52:00PM 0 points [-]

Sort of - the other reasons beside it being hard would be that it's ineffective as Gwern supposed, or that it's unpleasant, or that it's low payoff, or that the current behavior is very pleasant or very high payoff.

All these could effect how hard the effort is, but they could also effect the decision without changing how hard it is to change.

More generally, I assume that LWers are already familiar with things like, willpower depletion, status quo bias, and habit formation that make staying the same easier than changing

Comment author: ChristianKl 12 November 2015 12:49:48PM 0 points [-]

Small nitpick: I think the reason self-help has little effect is that most people don't apply it, not that they apply it and nothing happens.

I think a sizeable portion of people do things like daily affirmations. But even for applied self help there are often effects but the effect are neither that the person ends up as a billionaires or homeless.