The empiric reality I'm looking at is that during the course of human history there were many groups, tribes, nations, civilizations which disappeared
The fact that a nation disappear doesn't mean that there aren't any descendents of members of that nation.
Is is an topic where you can argue both the pro-group selection and the contra-group selection position based on arguments like you are making. But academics actually engaged more deeply with the subject and focused more strongly on the empiric predictions that various theories make.
As a result no argument that doesn't cite any papers will convince me.
I doubt it would be too illogical to say that it was not only random chance, but it also played a role what values and goals those groups had, and how did those work out in comparison with the values and goals of other groups.
A priori there's nothing illogical about saying it was random chance. The only way to know whether or not it was random chance is to actually studying empiric reality. That's a subject studied by experts.
it also played a role what values and goals those groups had, and how did those work out in comparison with the values and goals of other groups.
Values can chance fast culturally in a way that has nothing to do with genes. A few hundred years in which a nation forms has creates little distinct genetics that produce long-term evolutionary effects.
Do you never consider yourself part of a group which is smaller than "all humans"? Would you lose nothing if that group became smaller and less powerful?
The fact that a nation disappear doesn't mean that there aren't any descendents of members of that nation.
Biological descendants, yes, but they were usually much worse off (usually enslaved, having a higher chance to be genocided, or just having fewer rights or fewer possibilities)
Is is an topic where you can argue both the pro-group selection and the contra-group selection position
If you...
This sort of thinking seems bad:
This sort of thinking seems socially frowned upon, but accurate:
Similar points could be made by replacing a/b with [group of people]. I think it's terrible to say something like:
But to me, it doesn't seem wrong to say something like:
Credit and accountability seem like good things to me, and so I want to live in a world where people/groups receive credit for good qualities, and are held accountable for bad qualities.
I'm not sure though. I could see that there are unintended consequences of such a world. For example, such "score keeping" could lead to contentiousness. And perhaps it's just something that we as a society (to generalize) can't handle, and thus shouldn't keep score.