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James_Miller comments on Open Thread Feb 22 - Feb 28, 2016 - Less Wrong Discussion

5 Post author: Elo 21 February 2016 09:14PM

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Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2016 04:28:34PM 1 point [-]

I'm theoretically amazed that multicellular organisms could overcome all of the prisoners' dilemma type situations they must face.

You mean competition between cells in a multi-cellular organism? They don't compete, they come from the same DNA and they "win" by perpetuating that DNA, not their own self. Your cells are not subject to evolution -- you are, as a whole.

shouldn't competition among microorganisms cause us to get nothing?

In the long term, no, because a symbiotic system (as a whole) outcompetes greedy microorganisms and it's surviving that matters, not short-term gains. If you depend on your host and you kill your host, you die yourself.

Comment author: James_Miller 24 February 2016 03:10:41AM 1 point [-]

In the long term, no, because a symbiotic system (as a whole) outcompetes greedy microorganisms and it's surviving that matters, not short-term gains.

OK, but I have lots of different types of bacteria in me. If one type of bacteria doubled the amount of energy it consumed, and this slightly reduced my reproductive fitness, then this type of bacteria would be better off. If all types of bacteria in me do this, however, I die. It's analogous to how no one company would pollute so much so as to poison the atmosphere and kill everyone, but absent regulation the combined effect of all companies would be to do (or almost do) this.

Comment author: Lumifer 24 February 2016 03:43:28PM 1 point [-]

If one type of bacteria doubled the amount of energy it consumed, and this slightly reduced my reproductive fitness, then this type of bacteria would be better off.

It's not obvious to me that it will better off. There is a clear trade-off here, the microorganisms want to "steal" some energy from the host to live, but not too much or the host will die and so will they. I am sure evolution fine-tunes this trade-off in order to maximize survival, as usual.

The process, of course, is noisy. Bacteria mutate and occasionally develop high virulence which can kill large parts of host population (see e.g. the Black Plague). But those high-virulence strains do not survive for long, precisely because they are so "greedy".