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James_Miller comments on Open thread, Mar. 14 - Mar. 20, 2016 - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: MrMind 14 March 2016 08:02AM

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Comment author: Brillyant 16 March 2016 03:25:52AM *  0 points [-]

It makes a lot of sense that the nature of questions regarding the "beginning" of the universe is nonsensical and anthropocentric, but it still feels like a cheap response that misses the crux of the issue. It feels like "science will fill in that gap eventually" and we ought to trust that will be so.

Matter exists. And there are physical laws in the universe that exist. I accept, despite my lack of imagination and fancy scientific book learning, that this is basically enough to deterministically allow intelligent live beings like you and I to be corresponding via our internet-ed magical picture boxes. Given enough time, just gravity and matter gets us to here—to all the apparent complexity of the universe. I buy that.

But whether the universe is eternal, or time is circular, or we came from another universe, or we are in a simulation, or whatever other strange non-intuitive thing may be true in regard to the ultimate origins of everything, there is still this pesky fact that we are here. And everything else is here. There is existence where it certainly seems there just as easily could be non-existence.

Again, I really do recognize the silly anthropocentric nature of questions about matters like these. I think you are ultimately right that the questions are non-sensical.

But, to my original question, it seems a simple agnostic-ish deism is a fairly reasonable position given the infantile state of our current understanding of ultimate origins. I mean, if you're correct, we don't even know that we are asking questions that make sense about how things exist...then how can we rule out something like a powerful, intelligent creative entity (that has nothing to with any revealed religion)?

I'm not asking rhetorically. How do you rule it out?

Comment author: James_Miller 16 March 2016 04:47:15AM 0 points [-]

There is existence where it certainly seems there just as easily could be non-existence.

Could the prime numbers not exist? Somethings, such as our universe, might have to exist.

Comment author: Brillyant 16 March 2016 01:05:10PM 1 point [-]

Please elaborate. The universe is necessary?

Comment author: James_Miller 16 March 2016 02:50:30PM 0 points [-]

I have thought a lot about why there is something rather than nothing. It seems (to my brain at least) that the prime numbers have to exist, that they are necessary. I have speculated that perhaps after we understand all of physics we will come to realize that like the prime numbers, the universe must exist. I admit that I'm giving a mysterious answer to a mysterious question, sorry.

Comment author: Brillyant 16 March 2016 03:38:52PM 0 points [-]

Interesting. I'm ignorant of math, but aren't numbers just abstractions? And prime numbers exist within those abstractions?

Can you help me understand the parallel to the physical reality, and ultimate origins, of the universe?

...

I admit that I'm giving a mysterious answer to a mysterious question, sorry.

I have thought a lot about why there is something rather than nothing. It seems (to my brain at least)...

I appreciate your reply, as it pretty well sums up where I'm at. Can you take a stab at articulating why you (presumably) reject something like deism as an explanation for why there is something instead of nothing?

I also believe a perfect knowledge of physics will ultimately allow us to see clearly "why" and "how" the universe is the way it is, solving questions of origin in the process. But, in the meantime, I'm having a hard time dismissing the idea of a powerful intelligent creative entity a la deism, as it seems just as plausible as the other ideas I'm aware of.

On other note: It seems deism gets saddled with connotations of religion in discussions like this, and I don't think this is fair or helpful in the discussion. If you would be intentional to avoid this in your response, I would appreciate it.

Comment author: moridinamael 16 March 2016 04:09:46PM 4 points [-]

Look into the ideas of Tegmark, the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis. The central idea is that all possible mathematical structures exist. What we view as "the Universe" is just one set of equations with a particular set of boundary conditions, out of an infinite space of valid mathematical structures. The Universe exists because its existence is logically valid. That's it.

Comment author: James_Miller 16 March 2016 05:33:14PM 3 points [-]

Yes, this is my best guess as well. I reject deism because of Occam's razor--the computational complexity of a conscious creator is rather high, although I think this might all be a computer simulation, although then the basement reality doesn't have a conscious creator.