DanArmak comments on My Kind of Moral Responsibility - Less Wrong Discussion
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.
Comments (116)
You're describing a situation where some people hold factually incorrect beliefs (i.e. objectively wrong religions). And there's an infinitely powerful entity - a simulator, an Omega, a God - who will torture them for an unbounded time unless they change their minds and belive before they die. The only way to help them is by making them believe the truth; you completely believe this fact.
Do you think that not overriding other people's will, or not intervening forcefully in their lives, is a more important principle than saving them from eternal torture? What exactly is the rule according to which you (would) act?
Given your certainty, it seems that it would be easy for you to demonstrate and even to prove that these beliefs are "factually incorrect". Would you mind doing that? It would settle a lot of issues that humanity struggled with for many centuries:-/
I think you are misunderstanding what DanArmak wrote. The "situation" in question -- which it would be more accurate to say you were describing other people's belief in -- was that Christianity is right and unbelievers are going to hell; neither you nor Dan were endorsing that situation as an accurate account of the world, only as what some people have believed the world to be like.
(Right, Dan?)
That's right.
Like gjm says, you seem to have missed that I was describing a counterfactual. I don't personally hold such a (religious) belief, so I can't do what you ask.
But more relevantly, people have failed for many centuries to convince most others of many true facts I do believe in - such as atheism, or (more relevantly) the falsehood of all existing religions.
This isn't because the beliefs aren't true or the proofs are hard to verify; it's because people are hard to convince of anything contrary to something they already believe which is of great personal or social importance to them. People, in short, are not truth seekers, and also lack by default a good epistemological framework to seek truth with.
You're very... cavalier about putting an equals sign between things you believe in and things which are true. Yes, of course you believe they are true, but there is Cromwell's beseechment to keep in mind. Especially in a situation where you hold a certain belief and other people hold clearly different beliefs.
Oh really? You can prove that all religions are false? Let me go back to my comment, then, where it seems I wasn't quite clear. If you can provide proofs of atheism being true, please do so.
Of course, proving a negative is notoriously hard to do.
I try to keep in mind a probabilistic degree of belief for different beliefs. But I do endorse my previous statement for some beliefs, which I hold strongly enough to simply refer to them as true, even after taking all the meta-arguments against certainty into account.
Those are two different things. It's hard to prove that atheism is true in the sense that all possible religions are false. But it's quite easy to prove that every actually existing theistic* religion (that I and whoever I'm talking to have ever heard of) is false.
(*) (Excluding some philosophies which are called 'religions' but don't make any concrete claims, either natural or supernatural, limiting themselves to moral rules and so on; obviously those can't be true or false, proven or disproven.)
I don't believe this is true. Can you demonstrate? Let's take Christianity as the most familiar theistic religion. Here is the Nicene Creed, prove that it is false.
The Creed is a part of a larger whole, not meant to form a religion on its own. It doesn't include the great majority of the usual reasons for believing in Christianity, which I would need to address to convince people that it is wrong; it states (some of) the conclusions Christians believe in but not their premises. A Christian wouldn't try to convert someone just by telling them the Nicene Creed, without even any evidence for believing in the Creed.
However, on further reflection: I must partially retract what I said. The 'quite easy' proof I had in mind is not universal: like any proof, its form and existence depend on who that proof is supposed to convince. It's famously hard to convince a Christian of a disproof of Christianity; it's also very easy to convince someone who is already an atheist, or an Orthodox Jew, that the the same disproof is valid.
Every human alive has heard of the concept of religion, and of some concrete religions (if not necessarily of Christianity), and usually either believes in one or explicitly does not believe in any. So it could be said there's no perfectly impartial judge of the validity of a proof. I believe that a neutral, rational, unbiased reasoner would be convinced by my simple proofs; but even apart from not being to test this, a Christian could argue that I'm sneaking assumptions into my definition of a neutral reasoner. (After all, every reasoner must start out with some facts, and if Christianity is true, why not start out believing in it?)
I retract my previous claim. I don't have a "quite easy" proof any given religion is false, if by proof we mean "some words that would quite easily convince a believer in that religion to stop believing in it."
But that is precisely the part that I'm objecting to. I agree that trying to convince a believer would likely lead to some form of "Whatever, dude, you just need to let Jesus into your heart".
I'm not a Christian. I don't think Christianity is true, but that's a probabilistic belief that potentially could change. Prove to me that Christianity is false.
All beliefs are probabilistic and can change. The evidence that would convince us that Christianity is true would have to be commensurate with the prior telling us today that it is false. The existence of that low prior is the proof that it's very likely false (factoring in our uncertainty about some things).
(By the word 'prove', I obviously didn't mean a logical proof that sets the probability to zero; just one that makes the probability so low that theory would never rise to the level of conscious consideration.)
Why do I think our prior for Christianity should be very low?
First, because it makes supernatural claims; that is, claims which are by definition counter to all previous observations which we had used to determine the natural laws.
Second, because its core claims (and future predictions) are similar to many sets of (mutually contradictory) claims made by many other religions, which implies that generating such claims and eyewitness testimony (as opposed to lasting miraculous artifacts or states of nature) is a natural human behavior which doesn't need further explanation.
Third, because we know that Christianity and its dogmas have changed a lot during its history, and many sects have risen and fallen which have violently disagreed over every possible point of theology. Even if we assign a high probability to some variant of Christianity being true and ignore all other world religions (actual and possible), the average probability of any specific branch of Christianity would still be low, although not nearly as astronomically low as due to the other reasons given. And since we can trace clear human causes for the beliefs of many sects - like Luther postulating that since Catholic clergy was corrupt, their theology must also be wrong, or like many sects that were declared heretical for political reasons - it's likely that all sects' beliefs had human causes, and evolved in large part from previous, non-Christian beliefs.
Fourth, and generalizing the previous point, the reason we're even talking about Christianity isn't its claims. It's not because some Christian prophecies or supernatural beliefs unexpectedly came true. Rather, it's because many people are Christians and we grew up in or near Christian culture. But a great many religions that once flourished are now diminished or lost to history. And even Christians themselves (unlike some other religions) don't usually argue that the spread of their religion is a sign that it must be right; on the contrary, they venerate those who believed when Christians were few and persecuted.
I think you're trying to double-dip :-) The prior itself is a probability (or a set of probabilities). A "low prior" means that something is unlikely -- directly. It does not offer proof that it's unlikely, it just straight out states it is unlikely.
And there doesn't seem to be any reason to talk about priors, anyway. It's not like at any moment we expect a new chunk of information and will have to update our beliefs. I think it's simpler to just talk about available evidence.
As a preface let me say that I basically agree with the thrust of your arguments. I am not a Christian, afer all. However I don't consider them as anything close to a "proof" -- they look weaker to me than to you.
That is not so. Supernatural claims do not run "counter" to previous observations, they just say that certain beings/things/actions are not constrainted by laws of nature. Wright brothers' airplane was not "counter" to all previous observations of transportation devices with an engine. Recall Clarke's Third Law.
Not to mention that "all previous observations" include a lot of claims of miracles :-)
Yep. But there is a conventional explanation for that (I do not imply that I believe it): different traditions take different views of the same underlying divinity, but find themselves in the position of the nine blind men and the elephant.
This point will also need to explain why large civilizations (e.g. China) did NOT develop anything which looks like monotheism.
That's a wrong way to look at it. Imagine that you have an underlying phenomenon which you cannot observe directly. You can only take indirect, noisy measurements. Different people take different sets of measurements, they are not the same and none of them are "true". However this does not mean that the underlying phenomenon does not exist. It only means that information available to you is indirect and noisy.
See above -- different people might well have human reasons to prefer this particular set of measurements or that particular set of measurements. Still does NOT mean there's nothing underlying them.
Well, and why is that? Why is Christianity a huge world religion? It started with a small band of persecuted Jews, why did it spread so?
The two parts of your last paragraph oppose one another -- given the difficulty people have in seeking the truth, all proofs of that kind are hard to verify. You cannot say "the proofs are easy to verify, but most people do not have the ability to do so." Saying that something is easy just means that it does not take much ability.
You can say that it is easy for you, perhaps, but not that it is just easy.
It's true that the difficulty of understanding a proof is relative to the one doing the understanding. But what I meant was different.
People don't (merely) "have difficulty in seeking the truth", or find the proofs "hard to verify". Rather, people are generally not interested in seeking truth on certain subjects, and not willing to accept truth that is contrary to their dearly held beliefs, regardless of the nature or difficulty of the proof that is presented to them. When I said that "people are not truth seekers", I didn't mean that they are bad at discovering the truth, but that on certain subjects they usually (act as if they) don't want to discover it at all.
This is certainly true and not limited to religion, too.
Yes, I basically agree with this, although I think it applies to the vast majority of non-religious people as much as to religious people, including in regard to religious topics. In other words it is mostly not for the sake of truth that someone holds religious beliefs, and it is mostly not for the sake of truth that someone else holds non-religious beliefs.
Also, it does mean that people are bad at discovering the truth on the topics where they do not want to discover it, just as people are generally bad at jobs they do not want to do.