You're looking at Less Wrong's discussion board. This includes all posts, including those that haven't been promoted to the front page yet. For more information, see About Less Wrong.

MockTurtle comments on Zombies Redacted - Less Wrong Discussion

33 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 02 July 2016 08:16PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Article Navigation

Comments (165)
Tags: redacted zombies

Comments (165)

You are viewing a single comment's thread.

Comment author: MockTurtle 04 July 2016 12:17:58PM *  5 points [-]

I wonder what probability epiphenomenalists assign to the theory that they are themselves conscious, if they admit that belief in consciousness isn't caused by the experiences that consciousness brings.

The more I think about it, the more absurdly self-defeating it sounds, and I have trouble believing that ANYONE could hold such views after having thought about it for a few minutes. The only reason I continue to think about it is because it's very easy to believe that some people, no matter how an AI acted and for how long, would never believe the AI to be conscious. And that bothers me a lot, if it affects their moral stance on that AI.

Comment author: kilobug 05 July 2016 11:50:40AM 3 points [-]

Another more directly worrying question, is why or if the p-zombie philosopher postulate that other persons have consciousness.

After all, if you can speak about consciousness exactly like we do and yet be a p-zombie, why doesn't Chalmer assume he's the only not being a zombie, and therefore letting go of all forms of caring for others and all morality ?

The fact that Chalmer and people like him still behave like they consider other people to be as conscious as they are probably points to the fact they have belief-in-belief, more than actual belief, in the possibility of zombieness.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 09 July 2016 12:09:43PM 1 point [-]

Another more directly worrying question, is why or if the p-zombie philosopher postulate that other persons have consciousness.

A wonderful way to dehumanize.

therefore letting go of all forms of caring for others and all morality ?

The meat bag you ride will let go of caring, or not.

Under the theory, the observer chooses nothing in the physical world. The meatbag produces experiences of caring for you, or not, according to his meatbag reasons for action in the world.

Comment author: UmamiSalami 06 July 2016 08:33:35PM -1 points [-]

is why or if the p-zombie philosopher postulate that other persons have consciousness.

Because consciousness supervenes upon physical states, and other brains have similar physical states.

Comment author: kilobug 07 July 2016 07:20:11AM 1 point [-]

Because consciousness supervenes upon physical states, and other brains have similar physical states.

But why, how ? If consciousness is not a direct product of physical states, if p-zombies are possible, how can you tell apart the hypothesis "every other human is conscious" from "only some humans are conscious" from "I'm the only one conscious by luck" from "everything including rocks are conscious" ?

Comment author: UmamiSalami 07 July 2016 03:21:14PM *  0 points [-]

Chalmers does believe that consciousness is a direct product of physical states. The dispute is about whether consciousness is identical to physical states.

Chalmers does not believe that p-zombies are possible in the sense that you could make one in the universe. He only believes it's possible that under a different set of psychophysical laws, they could exist.

Comment author: dxu 18 July 2016 04:30:54AM *  0 points [-]

I claim that it is "conceivable" for there to be a universe whose psychophysical laws are such that only the collection of physical states comprising my brainstates are conscious, and the rest of you are all p-zombies. Note that this argument is exactly as plausible as the standard Zombie World argument (which is to say, not very) since it relies on the exact same logic; as such, if you accept the standard Zombie World argument, you must accept mine as well. Now then: I claim that by sheer miraculous coincidence, this universe that we are living in possesses the exact psychophysical laws described above (even though there is no way for my body typing this right now to know that), and hence I am the only one in the universe who actually experiences qualia. Also, I would say this even if we didn't live in such a universe.

Prove me wrong.

Comment author: UmamiSalami 22 July 2016 05:07:20PM *  -1 points [-]

I claim that it is "conceivable" for there to be a universe whose psychophysical laws are such that only the collection of physical states comprising my brainstates are conscious, and the rest of you are all p-zombies.

Yes. I agree that it is conceivable.

Now then: I claim that by sheer miraculous coincidence, this universe that we are living in possesses the exact psychophysical laws described above (even though there is no way for my body typing this right now to know that), and hence I am the only one in the universe who actually experiences qualia. Also, I would say this even if we didn't live in such a universe.

Sure, and I claim that there is a teapot orbiting the sun. You're just being silly.

Comment author: entirelyuseless 18 July 2016 01:35:53PM 0 points [-]

No one can prove you wrong. But your pretended belief is unreasonable, in the same way that it is unreasonable to believe that the sun will not rise tomorrow, even though no one can prove that it will.

It is also for the same reasons; the argument that the sun will rise tomorrow is inductive, and similarly the argument that others are conscious.

It may even be the case that infants originally believe your argument, and then come to the opposite conclusion through induction. I know someone who says that he clearly remembers that when he was three years old, he believed that he alone was conscious, because the behavior of others was too dissimilar to his own, e.g. his parents did not go and eat the ice cream in the freezer, even though there was no one to stop them.

Comment author: dxu 18 July 2016 03:49:39PM 0 points [-]

No one can prove you wrong. But your pretended belief is unreasonable, in the same way that it is unreasonable to believe that the sun will not rise tomorrow, even though no one can prove that it will.

In that case, the Zombie World argument is just as unreasonable--which is what I was getting at in the first place.

Comment author: entirelyuseless 19 July 2016 04:50:45AM -1 points [-]

I don't know what you mean by the "Zombie World argument." No thinks that the real world is a zombie world.

Comment author: dxu 19 July 2016 07:55:26PM *  0 points [-]

Okay, here's the Zombie World argument, paraphrased:

  1. It is "conceivable" (whatever that means) for there to be a universe with physical laws exactly identical to ours, but without the "bridging psychophysical laws" that cause certain physical configurations of atoms to produce subjective awareness, i.e. "consciousness".
  2. By assumption, the universe described above is physically identical to ours, right down to the last quark. As a result, there is a planet called "Earth" in this universe, and this planet is populated by humans identical to ourselves; each of us has a counterpart in this other universe. Moreover, each of those counterparts behaves exactly like you or I would, talking to each other, laughing at jokes, and even falling in love.
  3. However, since this hypothetical "conceivable" universe lacks the "bridging psychophysical laws" that are necessary for true consciousness to exist, each of those people in that universe, despite acting exactly like you'd expect a conscious being to act, aren't actually conscious, i.e. they don't experience qualia or possess any sense of self-awareness at all. They are, for all intents and purposes, automatons.
  4. Since by definition, there is no physical experiment you can perform to distinguish our universe from the Zombie Universe, any observer would have be told, as a separate and independent fact, that "yes, this universe is not the Zombie World--there is actually consciousness in this universe". This is then taken as proof that consciousness must be extra-physical, i.e. epiphenomenal.
  5. In both the Zombie World and our universe, people write philosophy papers about consciousness, since (again) the Zombie World and our universe are stipulated to be physically identical, and the act of writing a philosophy paper is a physical act. Incidentally, by the way, this means that the philosophers in the Zombie World are being absolutely crazy, since they're talking about a phenomenon that they have no way of knowing exists, by definition.
  6. However, it turns out that our universe's philosophers (whose beliefs about consciousness are no more justified than the Zombie World's philosopher's beliefs) actually are correct about consciousness, because by sheer miraculous coincidence, they happen to be living in a universe with the correct "psychophysical laws" that produce consciousness. They are correct, not because of any logical reasoning on their part (indeed, the reasoning they used must be flawed, since they somehow deduced the existence of a phenomenon they literally have no way of knowing about), but because they just happen to be living in a universe where their statements are true. Yay for them (and us)!
  7. Oh, and by the way, we really are living in a universe with consciousness, not the Zombie World. I know that there's literally no way for me to prove this to you (in fact, there's no way for me to know this myself), but just trust me on this one.

And now here's my argument, paraphrased:

  1. It is "conceivable" (whatever that means) for there to be a universe with physical laws exactly identical to ours, but whose "bridging psychophysical laws" are such that only those physical configurations of atoms corresponding to my (dxu's) brainstates produce consciousness; nothing else is or can ever be conscious.
  2. By assumption, the universe described above is physically identical to ours, right down to the last quark. As a result, there is a planet called "Earth" in this universe, and this planet is populated by humans identical to ourselves; each of us has a counterpart in this other universe. Moreover, each of those counterparts behaves exactly like you or I would, talking to each other, laughing at jokes, and even falling in love. One of those people is a counterpart to me; we'll call him "dxu-2".
  3. However, since this hypothetical "conceivable" universe has a different set of "bridging psychophysical laws", each of those people in that universe (with one exception), despite acting exactly like you'd expect a conscious being to act, aren't actually conscious, i.e. they don't experience qualia or possess any sense of self-awareness at all. They are, for all intents and purposes, automatons. Of course, I said there was one exception, and that exception should be obvious: dxu-2 is the only person in this universe who possess consciousness.
  4. Since by definition, there is no physical experiment you can perform to distinguish our universe from the Modified Zombie Universe, any observer would have be told, as a separate and independent fact, that "yes, this universe is not the Modified Zombie World--everyone here is conscious, not just dxu-2". This is then taken as proof that consciousness must be extra-physical, i.e. epiphenomenal.
  5. In both the Modified Zombie World and our universe, people write philosophy papers about consciousness, since (again) the Modified Zombie World and our universe are stipulated to be physically identical, and the act of writing a philosophy paper is a physical act. Incidentally, by the way, this means that the philosophers in the Modified Zombie World are being absolutely crazy, since they're talking about a phenomenon that they have no way of knowing exists, by definition.
  6. Dxu-2, by the way, isn't a professional philosopher, but he's fond of making comments on the Internet that assert he's conscious and that no one else is. Of course, when he makes these comments, his physical self is being exactly as crazy as the other philosophers in the Modified Zombie World, but luckily for dxu-2, the drivel that his physical self types just happens to be exactly right, because by sheer miraculous coincidence, he lives in a universe with the correct "psychophysical laws" that cause him to be conscous.
  7. Oh, and by the way, the Modified Zombie World is our universe, and "dxu-2" is actually me. I know I can't prove this to you, but just trust me on this one.

If you accept the Zombie World argument, you have to accept my argument; the two are exactly analogous. Of course, the contrapositive of the above statement is also true: if you reject my argument, you must reject the Zombie World argument. In effect, my argument is a reductio ad absurdum of the Zombie World argument; it shows that given the right motivation, you can twist the Zombie World argument to include/exclude anything you want as conscious. Just say [insert-universe-here] is "conceivable" (whatever that means), and the rest of the logic plays out identically.

P. S. One last thing--this part of your comment here?

No [one] thinks that the real world is a zombie world.

If the Zombie World exists (which I don't believe it does--but if it did), all of the people in that universe (who don't think their world is a zombie world) are dead wrong.

Powered by Reddit Powered by Reddit